The Middle East part 2

[Donnervogel 0]

It wasn't/isn't a 'rebel movement', it's a terrorist organization.

since when does that exculde itself? You really need to open up your mind. People can be rebels AND terrorists. Terrorism is just one form of violence. A rebel describes a person that opposes and/or fights a ruler/government. A terrorist is someone that uses acts of violence to frighten people in order to get his demands fulfilled.

And as you can read Jinef referred to the terrorism aswell as to the rebel movement in his statement. Because both is true. The palestinian terrorists groups are rebel movements. They fight the Israeli occupation of their land. This perfectly fits the definition. And they are terrorist organisations aswell as they use acts of terror to archieve their goal.

[Nemesis6 0]

They fight the Israeli occupation of their land.

Funny, Israel isn't in Lebanon and yet HizbAllah have been attacking Israel for... how long?

The Palestinians got Gaza, they even go to turn it into Hamastan, and what did the Israelis get in return? More terror and whining. The terrorist groups are not fighting for land. Hamas is fighting to rid what they refer to as "Palestine" of all Jews. Hizballah got their land, and they're still got a Jihad up their ass.

[Donnervogel 0]

Oh come on.

Wikipedia: Israeli-occupied territories

It doesn't matter if you and I agree or not that they are occupied. Fact is the Plaestinians in a majority think they are (And something tells me they have a lot more authority than you and I in this question). And that makes them rebels. They fight for "their" land. We can discuss the border dispute and the "security wall" to death all over and over as we already did countless times. It's not gonna change our viewpoints. And it's not gonna matter.

Quote[/b] ]Hamas is fighting to rid what they refer to as "Palestine" of all Jews.

that is right but it's not the only reason why they fight.

[EDIT]

Quote[/b] ]Hamas uses both political activities and violence to pursue its goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel and the secular Palestinian Authority.

source

[/EDIT]

So how does that invalidate my point? It only shows that this conflict has many more aspects. Like obviously also a conflict between religions. Stop thinking in two categories only.

As for hesbollah. Until 2000 souther Lebanon was occupied by Israel. It also was occupied before numerous times.

And besides if you would *read* for once you could see that I wrote

Quote[/b] ]The palestinian terrorists groups are rebel movements.

as referring to the groups acting primarily from Gaza and the West Bank.

Come on... this whole answer of mine is so unneeded. Don't just respond for the sake of opposing everything. If you answer then please make your point clear and point out why the points crizisised don't apply. If you just state other things without referencing to the original you run in danger of losing context which you partially did now. Like bringing up the topic of Hamas want's to kill all jews as answer to my statement that the plaestinian terror groups are rebel groups too. Those two issues are not directly connected in this context and hence it serves no point to use them as an argument against my position unless you elaborate why this would be so - which you didn't. Especially you fail to show why you think they don't fight for land.

[martinovic 0]

I'm beginning to think it's to keep the bloodthirsty jews off their backs.

Translation -

Quote[/b] ]I'm an anti-Semitic scumbag who has just illustrated why exactly I oppose the actions of Israel.

Typical, playing the "anti-semitism" card. As if Isreal was the be-all, end-all in all things jewish. I'm anti-Israel if anything.

I supported Israel, but not anymore. Bombing the crap out of civvies just isn't justifyable. I heard something about Isrealis saying that if a european country would kidnap another european country's soldiers they would go to war with eachother. Yea sure, but they wouldn't target civilians, only eachothers' military installations.

You guys are trying ot "cure cancer" by chopping the infected limbs off, not just culling a few healthy cells.

Quote[/b] ]exactly why

The killing of 200+ innocents has alot to do with "why exactly".

[EiZei 0]

if a european country would kidnap another european country's soldiers they would go to war with eachother. Yea sure, but they wouldn't target civilians, only eachothers' military installations.

Probably not unless we were looking for an excuse. Even North Korea kidnapped american soldiers some years back and nothing really happened.

[Bernadotte 0]

To Bernadotte, yes - we Brits left the Middle East in somewhat of a mess, but with good reason.

The terror campaign waged against the Palestine Police, the Arab people and the British Army by the Jewish militant organisations (the Stern Gang, Irgun and Hagannah) pre-1948 was every bit as vicious and protracted as anything the United States Army has been facing in Iraq.

...can you blame the British government for putting the matter before the UN?

I understand Harley and to be honest I merely seized the opportunity to mention again Israel's own terrorist roots that many Israelis don't even know about.

Here's another piece of "reluctant" history that you might find interesting...

...being emotionally blackmailed to create a "Jewish Homeland" in the wake of the holocaust, can you blame the British government for putting the matter before the UN?

Actually, the British promise to create a Jewish Homeland goes back to WWI when Britain's munitions factories were running out of Acetone required to make Cordite.  Fortunately, a British chemist named Chaim Weizmann had come up with a way of synthesizing it on an industrial scale:

Quote[/b] ]Weizmann was a chemist who managed to synthesize acetone via fermentation. Acetone is needed in the production of cordite, a powerful propellant explosive needed to fire ammunition without generating tell-tale smoke. Germany had cornered supplies of a major source of acetone, calcium acetate and other pre-war processes in Britain were inadequate to meet the increased demand in the Great War. A shortage of cordite would have severely hampered Britain's war effort. The Minister for Munitions David Lloyd-George, who became Prime Minister shortly after, was grateful to Weizmann and also supported him. Balfour asked what payment he would like in return for the use of his process, Weizmann responded, "There is only one thing I want. A national home for my people." He eventually received both payment for his discovery and a role in the history of the origins of the state of Israel.

This was one of the main reasons behind Britain's Balfour Declaration, in which one nation (Britain) had openly promised a second nation (world's Jews) a country within a third nation (Palestine):

Quote[/b] ]Foreign Office

November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government,

the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations

which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine

of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours

to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood

that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights

of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status

enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of

the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

Btw, regarding the part about protecting non-Jewish communities in Palestine Weizmann said, "with regard to the Arab question - the British told us that there are several hundred thousand Negroes there but this is a matter of no consequence.â€

No consequence, huh?  

[harley 3 1185 0]

I'm fully aware of the Balfour Declaration - Balfour, being a Tory happens to be one of my particular heroes.  I'm sure you won't disagree when I say that the end result in 1948 certainly didn't live up to what anyone could have reasonably expected of it.

The problem is there are alas far too many Israelis who would disclaim the British role in a) liberating Palestine from the Ottoman yoke, b) making a Jewish homeland a political if not a practical eventuality and c) conveniently putting down two major Arab revolts in protest against Jewish immigration which opened the way for the Jewish terrorist groups which provided a remarkably long-lived political and military cadre in the state of Israel.

Must say I wasn't aware of Chaim Weizmann's claim to fame as a chemist. I new of him as a ranking Zionist in the lead-up to the formation of Israel, but i wasn't aware of his Cordite activities, which are very important due to my abiding interest in the WWI Royal Navy..

[Bernadotte 0]

...putting down two major Arab revolts in protest against Jewish immigration...

Let me just add one more bit of reluctant info about that Arab reaction to Jewish immigration.  Palestinian Arab revolts against Jewish immigration were probably spawned much more out of economic concerns than nationalism.

Two examples:

1.)  According to this article on Zionism the Palestinian Arabs felt threatened by Zionist attempts to develop an economy in which Arabs were largely redundant, such as the "Hebrew labor" movement that campaigned against the employment of Arabs.

2.)  Furthermore, all tracts of land purchased in Palestine by international Jewish agencies were leased on the conditions that they be worked only by Jewish labour and that the lease should not be held by non-Jews.

So, just imagine the US administration within Iraq organizing the sale of Iraq's oilfields to American companies under the condition that none of the wealth be shared with Iraqis.  No surprise then that the Arabs of Palestine revolted.

[mattxr 9]

I heard something about Isrealis saying that if a european country would kidnap another european country's soldiers they would go to war with eachother. Yea sure, but they wouldn't target civilians, only eachothers' military installations.

Thats wrong.. they wouldnt go into war.. not straight away anyways.. they would negotiate, unless they were terroists..

and with israel they cant negotiate or get the lebonese goverment to help becuase they seem to be controlled by the terroists or something.. so the only way was war. and i think if you soliders were getting captured and rockets getting fired into your city every so ofter you would be pissed and take action of the killing of the inocent.

And we all know killing of inosent civilians is wrong, but how do you know the differnce between a terroist and civilan these days they all look the same, discuse them selves as harmless, so theres bound to be civilan casulites..

Its just like when the UK bombed that hospital in Afganistan, becuase they were being shot from inside how did they fully know if there wernt also civils inside there.. the fact is, they didnt

[mp_phonix 0]

Israel recrutis thousands of reservist to replace the regular soldiers that are stationed in the west bank & Gaza.

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//944854

{I know it is in hebrew, but at least you won't say i'm making this up}

explanation {not transating thee text or smt, just about the reserve}

Israel has about 150,000 soldiers in regulars service and about 600,000 in reserve.

looks like we are going to have war .. Israel calles massive reserve recruit only in war.

[mattxr 9]

A volcano starting to blow out ash getting ready to explode this crisis wide open.

could be getting ready for full scale invasion

[Bordoy 0]

Quote[/b] ]Israel tightens grip on Lebanon

Israel has called up thousands of reserve troops and told civilians to quit southern Lebanon immediately, amid threats of a large-scale incursion.

Israeli troops are already fighting Hezbollah inside Lebanon and have been heavily shelling the border area.

The BBC's Jim Muir in Tyre says the sound of explosions is constant and with villages cut off and roads severed, people are in grave peril.

Meanwhile, Hezbollah rockets have again hit the Israeli city of Haifa.

The BBC's Bethany Bell in Jerusalem says that it is understood the Israeli reservists could fill in for troops in the West Bank and Gaza, releasing other soldiers to go up to the northern front.

The move has widened speculation that Israel is preparing for a large ground troop offensive.

Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz has warned that Israel is prepared to launch a full-scale ground operation if necessary, saying "we have no intention of conquering Lebanon but... we will do it without thinking twice."

The call up came as Israel dropped leaflets on southern Lebanon warning residents to immediately evacuate an area approximately 32 km (20-mile) wide.

Haifa attacked

The BBC's Roger Hearing in the regional capital of south Lebanon, Sidon, says that about 30,000 internally displaced people have already crammed into the small sea port and that it is now becoming dangerously overcrowded.

The mayor Abdul Rahman Bizri has warned that supplies of food, medicines and water and accommodation are running out.

Meanwhile two fresh waves of Hezbollah rockets have hit the northern Israeli town of Haifa, causing an unknown number of injuries.

The BBC's Raffi Berg in Haifa said that three people were injured, though none seriously, when a rocket landed on a post office on Masarik square.

The post office suffered a direct hit, but, like most commercial premises in the city at the moment, was closed, our correspondent said.

Kiwan Ghalev, who was just 30 metres from the building when it was attacked told the BBC of the moment the missile struck.

"There was a very strong boom and people were panicking and running in different directions. People were crying and did not know what to do."

Thirty-four Israelis have been killed in the fighting, including 15 civilians killed by rockets fired by Hezbollah into Israel.

Meanwhile Israel has continued its campaign of air strikes with war planes bombing more than 40 targets, mainly in southern parts of Beirut in the early hours of Friday.

Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said the number of Lebanese killed in the 10 days of violence is now more than 330.

In other developments:

Lebanese Defence Minister Elias Murr says the country's army will go into battle if Israel invades Lebanon

A UN-run observation post on the border is struck by a shell or mortar during fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militants, but no-one is hurt

French Defence Minister Michele Alliot-Marie says France will launch an evacuation mission to rescue about 400 French citizens trapped in southern Lebanon.

'Leadership intact'

The crisis was triggered by the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah militants on 12 July.

In an interview with Arabic TV network al-Jazeera, Hezbollah's leader Sheikh Nasrallah said his group would give up the Israeli soldiers only in a prisoner exchange.

Sheikh Nasrallah also said that the Israeli attacks had not dented Hezbollah's capabilities, saying: "Hezbollah has so far remained steadfast."

Meanwhile, the evacuation of foreign nationals from Lebanon continues, with thousands more expected to arrive in Cyprus on Friday.

About 1,300 British nationals have arrived in Cyprus after being evacuated on a Royal Navy ship, HMS Bulwark.

And about 1,000 US citizens have also disembarked there from the USS Nashville after being rescued by US marines on Thursday.

Not surprised the the Lebanese Army get involved. Their country has been blown to shreds.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Harley, there's just no way of NOT foreseeing a conflict when you promise the same land to two different people who actually don't like each other in the first place. Lawrence of Arabia's promise to the arabs on behalf of the british empire, to give them that land for them to form autonomous, independent countries was just a blatantly offensive lie to make them fight on behalf of the british against the Ottomans in WWI. To even think that having jews and arabs occupy the same piece of land and not think that both would claim it as their own to create a sovereign foreign state, or also to believe that the creation of the israeli state would be accepted with anything other than revolt on behalf of the arabs, is an undeniable result of the then typical british imperialistic arrogance, which IS to blame for the mess going on around there ever since the state of Israel was created...

[Bordoy 0]

BUZZARD @ July 21 2006,15:08)]Harley, there's just no way of NOT foreseeing a conflict when you promise the same land to two different people who actually don't like each other in the first place. Lawrence of Arabia's promise to the arabs on behalf of the british empire, to give them that land for them to form autonomous, independent countries was just a blatantly offensive lie to make them fight on behalf of the british against the Ottomans in WWI. To even think that having jews and arabs occupy the same piece of land and not think that both would claim it as their own to create a sovereign foreign state, or also to believe that the creation of the israeli state would be accepted with anything other than revolt on behalf of the arabs, is an undeniable result of the then typical british imperialistic arrogance, which IS to blame for the mess going on around there ever since the state of Israel was created...

It's all good saying that, but instead of saying that. How about people actually come up with a solution and stop living in the past?

Why sdon't you blame the Normans, Saxons, Angles etc. If they didn't invade England in the first place then there wouldn't of been much people on this island, so there might of not been a UK therefore no British Emipre

[Mr_Tea 0]

The Hamas lives in the past, Hisbolla too. They indoctrinate theire children that Israel is evil and will try to kill them. Also europeans are still seen as crusaders, and over all stands: Every one that didn`t believe in Allah has no right to live.

If we would treat them the same way, they would be wiped out.

No WMD`s needed for that.

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Hamas lives in the past, Hisbolla too. They indoctrinate theire children that Israel is evil and will try to kill them. Also europeans are still seen as crusaders, and over all stands: Every one that didn`t believe in Allah has no right to live.

If we would treat them the same way, they would be wiped out.

theres no arguing with that, they tell them that they will be killed by israelis,well thats just silly ,that aint ever gonna happen is it ? i mean come on whos gonna wipe them out ? surely nobody would believe such a tale ,would they ?

of course your argument applies to both sides , when i saw those children from israel being indoctrinated, i.e writing messages on shells , but i guess with those katushas landing every night, they dont need indoctrinating. its all sad really.i am sure it will end one day , most other conflicts have. so sad we humans can be huh.

[Garcia 0]

And we all know killing of inosent civilians is wrong, but how do you know the differnce between a terroist and civilan these days they all look the same, discuse them selves as harmless, so theres bound to be civilan casulites..

that was a quite crappy argument/example. Besides, I don't really think the civilians killed by IDF was killed because "they look like civilians, but may be terrorists, and how could they know the difference"...and if they shot at civilians just because terrorists may look like civilians, then I would think they would have killed a lot more civilians...I mean, everyone except the lebanese army would be IDF targets then...

[Bernadotte 0]

It's all good saying that, but instead of saying that. How about people actually come up with a solution and stop living in the past?

What??  Simply forget about the promise God made to the Jews a few thousand years ago???  Israel wouldn't even need to exist if we all did that.  Talk about living in the past!!  How would you propose explaining why hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are living in refugee camps without some understanding of the past?

Maybe all those oil company geologists studying the prehistoric formation of oil deposits should also stop living in the past?  I think you'll find that the solutions to many of the worlds problems, like fuel for your car and a home for Palestinians may actually require a clear understanding of the past whether you like it or not.

Edit: Back to the present...  

Interesting post by Reuters:

Quote[/b] ]Israelis overwhelmingly back the army's war against Hizbollah in Lebanon and believe it is justified despite growing international pressure for a cease-fire, a poll showed on Friday.

The survey in the Maariv newspaper showed 90 percent of Israelis wanted the offensive to continue until Hizbollah was driven out of southern Lebanon and only then should negotiations be held to free two Israeli soldiers captured by the guerrillas.

It said 95 percent believed the army's response against Hizbollah was justified. That is an increase from 86 percent in a poll conducted earlier this week.

Only eight percent said Israel should stop fighting and enter negotiations. The survey said 78 percent of Israelis were satisfied with the performance of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

It was unclear if Israeli Arabs*, who comprise 20 percent of the population and have some mixed views of the campaign, were polled.

I find it incredible that a newspaper claiming to have polled Israelis could deliberately choose not to include Arab-Israelis.  If this is true then it speaks volumes of the extent to which anti-Arab racism has become endemic in Israeli society.  For that matter, if this is true and international news media does not scrutinise it then they can be considered just as racist.

Imagine the New York Times polling the American people about attacking Iraq, but intentionally leaving Arab-Americans out of their survey.

* Btw, why does Reuters call them Israeli Arabs instead of Arab-Israelis.  I'm sure Reuters would use the term Arab-American instead of American Arab.

[mp_phonix 0]

Israeli ground forces currently operationg in south-lebanonb. 4 soldier from the SF unit "Egoz" were killed during the fighting, probably from a missle shot inside the house they were staying in. the area is riddeled with bunkers. yesterday two Apache helicopters crashed onje into another.

Video of the fighting from Israeli news {also showing videos from the Hizballah news}:

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//944463

[william1 0]

Quote[/b] ] yesterday two Apache helicopters crashed one into another.

i thought that only hapenned in OFP

[Mr_Tea 0]

That can happen everywhere due to high air traffic, especialy if that happened by night.

What is mostly anoing at the moment, apart from civil losses, in every news you will find many people claiming that all this happens because of 2 captured IDF soldiers. What about those fucking rockets that where fired at Israel, and these rockets are still incoming.

[mattxr 9]

Quote[/b] ] yesterday two Apache helicopters crashed one into another.

i thought that only hapenned in OFP  

i wounder what happened there then.. one pilot shouts look at that space ship, and then the other sees a plane and thinks haha alians then before they know it both of them have collided.. LOL

[mattxr 9]

Picture 1

Quote[/b] ]In southern Beirut, hit hard by 10 days of Israeli air strikes, the scale of destruction in once-vibrant suburbs is becoming clear.

Picture 2

Quote[/b] ]Israel says the crowded, Shia-dominated neighbourhoods are a centre of Hezbollah operations, and warned residents to leave the area ahead of intensive strikes.

Picture 3

Quote[/b] ]

Regular heavy bombardments have shattered and burnt out vast swathes of buildings, filling the streets with piles of rubble and splintered metal.

Quote[/b] ]Most of those who lived in southern Beirut have left what remains of the area to its fate. These women were photographed earlier this week lamenting the destruction.

Picture 4

Quote[/b] ]In the ruined streets, children's playthings and other relics of an everyday existence lie scattered in the rubble.

Quote[/b] ]But south Beirut's children are not playing, their families searching instead for safety from the bombs and missiles. In hospital, those injured elsewhere in southern Lebanon have arrived for treatment.

Picture 5 Ghost City

Quote[/b] ]By Friday the streets of southern Beirut were empty and quiet, although air strikes continued overnight.

Picture 6

Quote[/b] ]Israeli airpower is among the most advanced in the world, able to reduce one specific building to rubble. However, there is little room for error in the packed streets.

Picture 7

Quote[/b] ]Most residents do not wish to risk their lives, leaving town for an uncertain future as their homes remain in the line of fire.

Quote[/b] ]For others it is too late. Eight-year-old Howeida Khaled was injured on a strike against her village to the south of Beirut. In a hospital in the city, her mother can only wait for her daughter to recover.

edit: Taken From the BBC Website.

[Bernadotte 0]

...in every news you will find many people claiming that all this happens because of 2 captured IDF soldiers. What about those fucking rockets that where fired at Israel, and these rockets are still incoming.

Here's a little reality check for ya, Mr Tea.  

Quote[/b] ]July 12 - Hizbollah guerrillas capture two Israeli soldiers and kill up to eight around the Lebanese border. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert calls it an "act of war" by Lebanon.

-- Israel broadens Gaza offensive and cuts the strip in two. Attacks kill at least 24 Palestinians in Gaza.

July 13 - Israeli aircraft bomb runways at Beirut's Rafik al-Hariri International Airport, forcing flights to divert to Cyprus. Israel's navy blockades Lebanese ports.

-- Dawn air strikes in south Lebanon kill at least 44 civilians and wound 100 people.

-- Hizbollah retaliates for Israeli "massacres" by firing 60 Katyusha rockets at Nahariya in northern Israel killing one.

-- In Gaza, an air strike destroys the office of Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud al-Zahar.

As you can see, it was only those 44 Lebanese civilians killed, 100 wounded, wrecked airport and blockaded seaports that were in response to the 2 kidnapped soldiers.  Go ahead and blame everything else on the rockets if you like.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

And we all know killing of inosent civilians is wrong, but how do you know the differnce between a terroist and civilan these days they all look the same, discuse them selves as harmless, so theres bound to be civilan casulites..

that was a quite crappy argument/example. Besides, I don't really think the civilians killed by IDF was killed because "they look like civilians, but may be terrorists, and how could they know the difference"...and if they shot at civilians just because terrorists may look like civilians, then I would think they would have killed a lot more civilians...I mean, everyone except the lebanese army would be IDF targets then...

Weren't there even reports of armed civilians engaged in a shoot-out against Hizbollah at a couple of villages, because the Hizbollah wouldn't let them leave the area? I thought I heard of something like that... taking into account that all civilians firing weapons would be identified as terrorists by the israelis, an israeli watching that happen would automatically be thinking: "Talk about terrorists settling differences of oppinion." - Or something along that line...