The Middle East part 2

[Ares1978 0]

The answear to the is in the Name of the Israli army:

IDF = Israel DEFENSE Force

Israel will use nukes only to defend itself.

And North Korea calls itself The Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.

[mp_phonix 0]

The answear to the is in the Name of the Israli army:

IDF = Israel DEFENSE Force

Israel will use nukes only to defend itself.

And North Korea calls itself The Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.

I dont care how koreak calls itself. I'm talking about israel. Israel conducted wars only to defend herself {excluding the 6th day war and the 1956 sinay campaign}. ppl call us murderes because we blow-up terrorist in thei cars with helfire missels. OH its ok when the U.S. does it in Iraq, and the terrorist that is blowen is called "rebel, terrorist, insurgant", and here they call it "Freedom fighter", yeah right. At least we are here not because of Oil.

[Ares1978 0]

I dont care how koreak calls itself. I'm talking about israel.

So why should anyone care what Israel calls its military organisations? Do you honestly believe that a name is a reliable description of ANYTHING? Calling something "defense" makes it no more true, than calling something "democratic".

Quote[/b] ]{excluding the 6th day war and the 1956 sinay campaign}.

Well then, you have two exceptions right there. How many are necessary?

And I'm pretty sure I've heard US actions being described as "murder".

[Guest Ti0n3r]

ppl call us murderes because we blow-up terrorist in thei cars with helfire missels.

Well, I call the IDF murderes because they've killed civilians more than once. It really is that simple.

[mp_phonix 0]

Well, I call the IDF murderes because they've killed civilians more than once. It really is that simple.

really ? Ok, U.S soldier are murdeers because they killed more then once as you say, people in iraq.

You just don't get it do you ?

In a war inoccnet people always die. but you know, I don't have to explain myself to you, your probably sitting in Europe or US and calling IDf murderes when you dont live in this country and understanding that situation. U.S. goes screaming after 9/11 "Terror Trror we must destroy all the terrorist". Well, if 9/11 diden't happend, what do you think they would do ?

"It's really that simple", man, I really don't want to flame here . . .

You know what, "murders civilians", that really some funny shit . . .you just don't have any idea. Everybody says the we "torture" the phalastinians and dont support them and just murdering, here a couple of questions:

Who supplys all their electricity power ? we

Who provides them with water ? we

Who provides mediacl aid ? we

Don't go Yapping about "Israli are murderds" and all that shit, when your friends in the f***ing U.N are supporting those damn terrorist bitches, thinking they own this f***en country. You know it "F" you.

anyways, I figure that "Balschoiw" user is from germany

Hey Balschoiw, why don't you shut the "f" up, at least we dont put them in gas chambers or shoot them all. Your the last person who have the right to talk. And yes I will be pulling the "Nazi" card on you, for the next fifty years. My friend's getting stabed to death in the neck on roadblock duty in the terretorys, and all the newspapers in the world are calling 'Freedom fighter kill. . ".

believe my, everybody in the phalastinians people know whos working with the terrorist and who doesn't. HAMAS got 56% precent of voices, that means 56% precent of the phalastinians can be considerd as Terrorist/Terror supported, that means 56% chance when 'inoccnet' phalastinian is getting killed, he is one of them. and If he is, he should die, believe me. we are trying to leave pecfully with them. You think we blow em up { BTW, WE BLOW UP TERRORIST< THE INCCOENT KILLS ARE THE ONE THAT WAS STANDING NEAR}.Every week we inerecpt about 5-10 bombings, without killing anyone.IF they stop the terrorm we will stop because we have no reason to shoot them.

Yeah, go live in this country for 1 year and you see . . .

Hey, maybe they'l do a bombing, just for you  

[Guest Ti0n3r]

You are right. I can't see if from the same point of view as the people who have to face the threat of being blown up by a suicide bomber as soon as they decide to take the buss etc, and I do have full respect for the people who have to face that kind of threats every day.

But just don't say that you're being called murderers because you 'blow up terrorist in their cars with hellfire missiles'. You can kill those assholes all you want. I don't mind. But realize that being called a murderer is something you have to accept as long as your army kills civilians. Weather it's accidental or on purpose doesn't really make a big difference.

[raedor 8]

Weather it's accidental or on purpose doesn't really make a big difference.

It does: on purpose is even worse.

[mp_phonix 0]

Weather it's accidental or on purpose doesn't really make a big difference.

Of course it makes diffrence !:

1st scenerio

Lets say your an IDf soldiers, and you have a firefight in . .Nablus {just picked}. You shoot the terrorist and some civilian runs into the line of fire and gets killed by your bullets

2nd

you go patrolling and a phalastininas walks by, you dont like the way he looks at you then you shoot him

thats the same ?

You can't call an accident a "murder", murder is when you are intentionly kill the man, like a soldier shoots some terror and thinks "hey, lats pop some civilians while im shooting him{the terror}". Of coure, propoganda films can be showen that soldier hit kids and phalastinians and all, and also I can show you that they {the phalastinians} throw stones, sniper attacks against civilians and all. I know, its very wrong when civilian is killed, whtever its is an accident or a 'murder'. But thats how war is. and believe me, it's a war here , thought it dosent being fought with 30 tank companys etc, but it's a war.believe me, when Israel goes poping terror with helfire missle, they don't think :"Hey ! lats kill some civilians while were at it !". It's an accident. Thats just war. In every war civilians are being killed, unfortuntly, and you can't call IDF mureders because it happens that civilians get killed and the U.S. army in Iraq not murders when they do sometimes accidently kill civilians. why dont you call them 'murders' ? because you think they cause is 'right' ?

here a case for example { a real story}, you can belive and you can not to believe it, it's your choice:

An IDF patrol was somewhere in the terretoris, when they walked throught an ally, a phalastinian took an hand-axe and slashed the squad's medic, the soldier shot him right away, but not killed him. the medic took carte of him after that. he could chose no to do that. . .

[Guest Ti0n3r]

I made my point so I'll stop.

[Goeth 0]

Holy crap, maybe moderator should put that mp_phonix character on penalty box, he´s heating too much.

[mp_phonix 0]

@ June 05 2006,23:52)]Holy crap, maybe moderator should put that mp_phonix character on penalty box, he´s heating too much.

heating too much ? whats that supose to mean ?

[ralphwiggum 6]

anyways, I figure that "Balschoiw" user is from germany

Hey Balschoiw, why don't you shut the "f" up, at least we dont put them in gas chambers or shoot them all. Your the last person who have the right to talk. And yes I will be pulling the "Nazi" card on you, for the next fifty years. My friend's getting stabed to death in the neck on roadblock duty in the terretorys, and all the newspapers in the world are calling 'Freedom fighter kill. . ".

no flaming tolerated here. very low.

you will be post restricted, and the length will be 24 hours.

[Nemesis6 0]

By the way: Why can Israel have nukes when Iran can't, you ask?

The answear to the is in the Name of the Israli army:

IDF = Israel DEFENSE Force

Israel will use nukes only to defend itself.

That was kind of my point!

Tioner, have you ever heard of the Qana shelling?

The story goes as follows: Hizballah started started firing Katyusha rockets against Israel from a crowded area. The civilians flee to a U.N. compound for safety. Now, here's where Hizballah does something damn smart: They follow these residents to the U.N. camp, and starts firing from their new position. This is a brilliant tactic as it's basically a win-win situation for them: They hit Israel, and when Israel fires back, they will hit the human shields; The civilians. This tactic was employed during the Lebanon civil war by the Muslims against the Christians. One account comes from Brigette Gabriel. She witnessed artillery being set up infront of their bomb shelter, the conditions of which were already horrifying. If you're interested in this story, and I highly suggest you take one of you haven't, check out the interview with her here.

Bottom line is - The Palestinians and Lebanese have benefitted greatly from this tactic in the last like 20 years or so. Summing up: Purposely firing from a populated area in order to maximize civilian casualties + guillible Europeans and/or lefties + a chance of Israeli casualties = Double the win.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]anyways, I figure that "Balschoiw" user is from germany

Hey Balschoiw, why don't you shut the "f" up, at least we dont put them in gas chambers or shoot them all. Your the last person who have the right to talk. And yes I will be pulling the "Nazi" card on you, for the next fifty years. ".

There are potential chessmate answers Balschoiw could choose from

1) one wrong doesnt make the other wrong right!

2) he didnt put them in gas chambers either, nor did any generation he could have potentially influenced

3) not looking at own nations actions critically shows, that you are actually 50 years behind the german self clarification of facts. Many of you are still self chosen obscurantists.

I too look at the Israel-palestine conflict in a very mixed way. But I see a large percentage of the responsibility for the bad situation at the side of the palestinians. But what can you expect from a poor and poorly educated population? The entire situation often reminds me of the Favelas in Rio de Janeiro. Should you negotiate with the drug bosses? Wouldnt you give them more power through that? Should you just use catepillars to wipe out the huts and hope this would erase the misery? Or maybe invest millions to open opportunities for them? But as in Brasil, many of the police forces have lost their respect for these poor people. I wonder what would happen if you would import islam over there? The drug bosses would be muslim preachers trading brain wash. And instead of drugs it would be bomb belts that would kill the poorest of the poor!

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]anyways, I figure that "Balschoiw" user is from germany

Hey Balschoiw, why don't you shut the "f" up, at least we dont put them in gas chambers or shoot them all. Your the last person who have the right to talk. And yes I will be pulling the "Nazi" card on you, for the next fifty years. ".

Cute.

That´s why I say that the people are the problem. You have extremists on both sides of the table. Israeli extremists and palestinian extremists. As long as this is the case there will be no serious approach.

Thanks for proving my point.

Maybe some historical revision can give a hint on who is

really following the german WW2 patterns:

Quote[/b] ]"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

Quote[/b] ] "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

Quote[/b] ]"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

Quote[/b] ]"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

Quote[/b] ]"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

[theavonlady 2]

Maybe some historical revision can give a hint on who is

really following the german WW2 patterns:

Revision indeed. Baldfaced lies.

Quote[/b] ]"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

Lie.

Quote[/b] ] "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

Lie.

Quote[/b] ]"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

Lie.

Quote[/b] ]"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."

True. So what?! That's all?! However, what kind of site did you take this quote from? Hint, it ended off with these words:

Quote[/b] ]Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

Militants? Extreme? Aha. Because you and the extreme left wing Arab loving AFP said so?

Quote[/b] ]"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

Congratulations. You picked one of our earliest peace nuts who was more than happy to smear his own country on numerous occasions throughout his post-military political careers.

But go ask everyone's father, mother, aunt and uncle here what everyone felt like at the time and you'll get a completely opposite picture from the populace.

The surrounding Arab countries had some 250,000 troops amassed on Israel's borders, along with more than 2,000 tanks and 700 aircraft ringing Israel. And all this with both of Israel's major arms suppliers, the US and France, imposing a total arms embargo, while Russia kept piling in the weapons to the Arabs. Piece of cake, right?

Enjoy your warped view of history.

[Acecombat 0]

Something i found interesting about that site.

About Camera

Quote[/b] ]The scope of the problem

Inaccurate and distorted accounts of events in Israel and the Middle East are to be found everywhere from college radio stations to network television, from community newspapers to national magazines, and, of course, on the Internet. In recent years misinformation about the Middle East has also surfaced in fashion magazines, architectural publications, encyclopedias, professional reference works, geography textbooks, travel guides, and even dictionaries. Frequently inaccurate and skewed characterizations of Israel and of events in the Middle East may fuel anti-Israel and anti-Jewish prejudice.

Quote[/b] ]A non-partisan organization, CAMERA takes no position with regard to American or Israeli political issues or with regard to ultimate solutions to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Funny it seems only Israel is ever smeared with rumours and distorted news coverage , while the other side doesnt?

[Balschoiw 0]

If some of the quotes are wrong or made up it´s my fault.

I tried to crosscheck them and they popped up on a huge variety of pages, including official university pages.

Point taken.

Well as you also know Avon it doesn´t take much digging into your countries history to find a big heap of wrongdoings and things that still go on, that are against international law, the geneva conventions and against humanity.

If you are so keen on damning reports, why don´t you just have a look at the UN reports about the situation in palestine refugee camps and the use of force of IDF troops against civillians.

Of course you can always rely on the US to veto anything coming into your direction, but that doesn´t mean it´s less illegal.

You may remember the land-grab Israel conducted when building the wall. It has been ruled illegal by international court. Does this have an effect ? No ?

Israel has a tradition of picking what they like and just ignoring what doesn´t fit their purpose.

You alienate yourself with such behaviour and attitude.

The EU should reverse the special Israel - trade status, as Israel is the number one country giving rats about the obligations they have. Why grant someone a special status if they are unwilling to apply at least the very basic geneva conventions ?

You´ve had your time of playing victim, it´s time to rethink your situation and if you want to benefit from the world community you have to play along their rules. If not, you´re no better than the rogue states you complain about in a whining loop.

[scary 0]

QUCKLY, UNITED NATIONS! OFFER THEM MORE INCENTIVES!

I think it's time for another threatening letter. That'll teach 'em.

Why do they need either incentives or threatening letters? Under the non-proliferation treaty each country has the right to a civil nuclear program, including enrichment.

Iran has broken no laws. There is no evidence of a weapons program. Even if Iran wanted nuclear weapons it would first have to increase its enrichment capability 500-fold, then make a warhead and then make the means of delivery. In a perfect world, two years work. In Iran, decades. And it would have to do it without the outside world being aware, something not in the realms of possibility.

Did we ever initiate a threat to <use nuclear weapons>?

Has Iran?

Quote[/b] ]Only to people like you who could equate Israel and an Islamic Jihadist dictatorship, run by a guy who has clearly stated his interest in producing another holocaust (stated by Iran over 5 years ago but who notices! ) and denying another holocaust ever occurred.

First, go look up the definition of Jihad. Then get your Farsi translations from a more reliable source. Ahmadinejad has never denied nor confirmed the Jewish holocaust or threatened Jews. He also doesn't run Iran.

Quote[/b] ]Much of the Europe you live in was a haven for terrorists for decades and did as much as they could, within the bounds of politically correct shenaniginery, to what Israel die a slow death.

Europe has done a much better job of keeping terrorism in check than Israel. Israel jumps from blustering cock-up to blustering cock-up and then complains that there is still terrorism.

Quote[/b] ]Is it safe?

Aside from the 'information' in that link not being true, its also repugnantly bigoted to suggest that having Muslims in the population should mean questioning ones' safety. Personally, I'd rather live among a multi-cultural population than near one bigot.

Your 'Eye on the UN' link is about as balanced as a two-legged donkey.

ppl call us murderes because we blow-up terrorist in thei cars with helfire missels.

No, people call the IDF murderers because they blow up terrorists in their cars with hellfire missile with total disregard for anyone that happens to be nearby - fifty dead civilians is not worth one possibly dead possible terrorist. Or when they kill journalists after allegedly being given orders to shoot unarmed civilians.

Quote[/b] ]Everybody says the we "torture" the phalastinians and dont support them and just murdering, here a couple of questions:

Who supplys all their electricity power ? we

Who provides them with water ? we

Who provides mediacl aid ? we

If Israel stopped blocking Palestinians from having a viable state they would be able to supply all that themselves.

Quote[/b] ]anyways, I figure that "Balschoiw" user is from germany

Hey Balschoiw, why don't you shut the "f" up, at least we dont put them in gas chambers or shoot them all. Your the last person who have the right to talk.

Au contraire, my young Padawan, he is the first person to have the right to talk. Unlike Israel, Germany has held its hand up to its unpleasant deeds, and all credit due to them for that, they have been doing their best to right their wrongs.

We're still going to beat them in the World Cup though

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, go live in this country for 1 year and you see . . .

Hey, maybe they'l do a bombing, just for you  

How gracious of you. Of course, Israel isn't the only state to have terrorism, some of us are quite aware of the realities.

Quote[/b] ]1st scenerio

Lets say your an IDf soldiers, and you have a firefight in . .Nablus {just picked}. You shoot the terrorist and some civilian runs into the line of fire and gets killed by your bullets

As a long-serving professional member of a professional military, I am quite qualified to inform you that there is no such thing as an accidental shooting. Yours is an example of incompetence, not accident.

Quote[/b] ] when Israel goes poping terror with helfire missle, they don't think :"Hey ! lats kill some civilians while were at it !". It's an accident. Thats just war.

Missiles are not a weapon for combating individuals, and it's not an accident it is disregard for life. Has Madrid ever pumped artillery into Barcelona because there may be eta members there? Of course not.

Quote[/b] ]An IDF patrol was somewhere in the terretoris, when they walked throught an ally, a phalastinian took an hand-axe and slashed the squad's medic, the soldier shot him right away, but not killed him. the medic took carte of him after that. he could chose no to do that. . .

No he couldn't - Geneva conventions, soldiers duty and what-not.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."

True. So what?! That's all?!

It is a land grab. It is illegal. Israel is not above the law. Occupation is the main thing the Palestinian terrorists are fighting against. By land-grabbing, Israel is giving them more reason to fight. Is that enough for you?

Quote[/b] ]Congratulations. You picked one of our earliest peace nuts who was more than happy to smear his own country on numerous occasions throughout his post-military political careers.

You are insulting someone for wanting peace. Do you not want to see an end to the terrorism then? And since when has 'smearing ones own country' been a bad thing? Do you think everyone should provide total deference to their respective state? To most, questioning the status quo is a sign of intelligence.

Quote[/b] ]But go ask everyone's father, mother, aunt and uncle here what everyone felt like at the time and you'll get a completely opposite picture from the populace.

How very emotive. How very irrelevent. People's 'feelings' indeed.

[EiZei 0]

Did we ever initiate a threat to <use nuclear weapons>?

Has Iran?

I think the whole point of getting nuclear weapons is that you can threaten with them after getting a sizeable arsenal.. not before you have them.

[Nemesis6 0]

Ahmadinejad has never denied nor confirmed the Jewish holocaust or threatened Jews. He also doesn't run Iran.

Holy crap... So by your definition, he has not:

A: Called the Holocaust a "myth"

B: Called for the destruction of Israel

That's something he has never done, huh? Jeez...

[mp_phonix 0]

No, people call the IDF murderers because they blow up terrorists in their cars with hellfire missile with total disregard for anyone that happens to be nearby - fifty dead civilians is not worth one possibly dead possible terrorist. Or when they kill journalists after allegedly being given orders to shoot unarmed civilians.

Fifty dead civilians . .that never happende. What did happend is 15 dead civilians when Israel droped a 1 ton bomb on a hamas convoy.

Quote[/b] ]How gracious of you. Of course, Israel isn't the only state to have terrorism, some of us are quite aware of the realities.

Really ? what other country have rutine terror attacks exept Iraq ? and no im not talking about the londond bombins, where that happend only once !

Quote[/b] ]As a long-serving professional member of a professional military, I am quite qualified to inform you that there is no such thing as an accidental shooting. Yours is an example of incompetence, not accident.

Proffesional ? Army ?

1.) What army would that be ?

2.) How many years did you serve ?

3.) IF you know what accidental shooting is and whats is not, please tell me where did you had you COMBAT tour ?

and plz dont tell me its the US/UK army cuz they do sometimes kill civilians in Iraq [accidently of course]

[Balschoiw 0]

You just earned yourself a ban from these forums. Congratulations.

Quote[/b] ]§5)No posting of explicit images

No posting of pictures containing porn, real killing, mutilations, wounds, carnage, and other disgusting/explicit images. This also includes links to pages that contain such images. There have been a number of incidents where people have linked to news sites which unbeknownst to them contains obscene images a few mouse clicks away, while we can't expect people to check every link on a site it is strongly suggested that whenever making a post about a news item the post is structured in a way that provides the information without risk of breaching the rules. A good example of how to do this can be seen below. If you're ever unsure as to whether or not a link should be posted on the forum feel free to PM a moderator for guidance.

[bucket man 2]

Ahmadinejad has never denied nor confirmed the Jewish holocaust or threatened Jews. He also doesn't run Iran.

Holy crap... So by your definition, he has not:

A: Called the Holocaust a "myth"

B: Called for the destruction of Israel

That's something he has never done, huh? Jeez...

Actually he has not called for destruction of Israel or atleast not in public. Besides he has no control over the Iranian armed forces and he has no word in saying who Iran attacks so his personal feelings are irrelevant.

[Nemesis6 0]

Ahmadinejad has never denied nor confirmed the Jewish holocaust or threatened Jews.

Wrong.

Moving on, Palestinian death cultists Support Headchopper Zarqawi

Quote[/b] ]Palestinians demonstrate in Khan Younis, southern Gaza Strip late Thursday, June 8, 2006 to protest a US air raid in which Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the al-Qaida-linked militant who led a bloody campaign of suicide bombings, kidnappings and hostage beheadings in Iraq, was killed. (AP Photo/Khalil Hamra)