The Middle East part 2

[der bastler 0]

You can't solve social problems with technical solutions.

10: A palestinian suicide bomber hits a public place in Israel

20: Israel strikes back, busting a palestinian block in search for some terrorist leaders

30: Palestinian terrorists strike back, bombing a public place

40: goto 20

Take a look at typical suicide bombers: they can be easily recruited from the masses of unemployed, uneducated palestinian youths. Terrorist recruiters just have to show them the result of another israeli attack and can exploit the hopeless "no future" situation.

Don't exclude Palestinians. Show them that there's a better future with Israel instead of "without Israel".

[bn880 5]

Well technical solutions can be part of it IMO. Not like this though. Sure it has made it a lot harder, but boy is their blood boiling now...

[mr_rOk 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote  

The wall is being built so deeply in Palestine territory so that the remaining area to Israel's border can serve as a buffer zone.

Buffer zone? ??

First of all that would be illigal anyway.

secondly why the heck do you have a bufferzone wich in one region is 5 kilometres wide (a bit much for a buffer zone) ,and in other places 50 km wide??? (repeat ,tad to big for bufferzone)

Third ,how could this bufferzone ON ISRAELI SOIL be more efficiant in keeping terrorists OUT? Shouldn't the bufferzone be on the other side then??? (between Fence and palestinians rather than behind fence? )

As i see it once the Palestinians are trough the fence they are trough ,and no 50 kilometers empty bufferzone won't stop them there.

Besides ,you either annex a lot of Palestinians inside youre bufferzone right into Israeli territory (so the terrorists that  MAY be among them are right into Israeli territory) or you displace them from youre bufferzone and they begin to pileup along youre fence. (not very good security wise neither)

@ apollo

I guess you have no idea what gadgets are going to be installed in the wall and behind the wall; ie small radars, microphones, seizmic detectors etc.

If you take all that into perspective it makes sense (from a security point of view)

[der bastler 0]

I guess you have no idea what gadgets are going to be installed in the wall and behind the wall; ie small radars, microphones, seizmic detectors etc.

You forgot mines and spring-guns!

Reminds me of the FRG-GDR border.

We all know what happended to that thing...

[mr_rOk 0]

You all equate it to the Berlin wall.

Why? There's no point.

In Berlin's case there were Germans on both sides, regardless of the political directions their governments took(or were forced to take). There was common interest for the wall to go! East Berliners were driving cars 100km/h through checkpoints just to get to the west.

How many Palestinians (apart from the suicidal ones) did you hear about "defecting" to Israel?

These are not the same people, they've hated each other for a long time.

Until the attacks stop on both sides the wall is gonna stand; there's even probably going to be another one built=>this time on the legitimate Israeli border.

And before you all start to flame me, think what you would do in Ariel Sharon's place.

[Joku_ 0]

In my opinion palestinians as a nation have gone mad. Getting own independent state wouldn't be enough for them, they won't rest until Israel has been destroyed.

Besides, when palestinians started their intifada (=terror campaign) Israel's prime minister offered quite good terms in peace progress. So I think that the wall is only way to peace.

If I remember correctly, Israel occupied West bank in some war after arab countries attacked it. So technically West bank would be legally part of Israel?

[Colossus 2]

BBC News

Quote[/b] ]<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>US critical of UN barrier ruling

</span>

The US state department has described as inappropriate a ruling by the world court that Israel's West Bank barrier is illegal and should be torn down.

Spokesman Richard Boucher said the ruling - which is not binding - might be a damaging distraction from the roadmap peace process.

The International Court of Justice rejected Israel's arguments that it needed the barrier for self-defence.

But Israel said it would not accept the court's "unjust" decision.

The court said the construction of the Israeli "wall" was "tantamount to annexation" and impeded the Palestinian right to self-determination.

Israel insists the barrier is needed to keep out West Bank militants. Palestinians consider it a land grab.

Mr Boucher said that while Washington would study the UN court's ruling in the coming days, long-standing US opposition to the whole process was unchanged.

He said the debate about the controversial barrier was a political issue, not one for the International Court.

"We think the efforts of the parties ought to be placed on seizing the opportunity that can be created for progress on the roadmap," he added.

The US, along with several other countries including the UK, had argued the court should stay out of the issue.

The court's decision can serve as a basis for United Nations action.

'Racist wall'

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat described the ruling as a "victory for the Palestinian people".

"We salute this decision condemning the racist wall," Mr Arafat told reporters at his West Bank headquarters.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei said it was "a historic day".

"They [judges] said it has to be torn down and we say that we must tear it down," Mr Qurei said

But Israeli spokesmen were quick to dismiss the ICJ ruling.

"I believe that after all the rancour dies, this resolution will find its place in the garbage can of history," said Raanan Gissin, a senior aide to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

"The court has made an unjust ruling denying Israel its right of self-defence."

Finance Minister Binyamin Netanyahu went even further, pouring scorn on possible action by the UN General Assembly - which took the issue to court.

"They [the GA] can decide anything there. They can say that the earth is flat. It won't make it legal, it won't make it true and it won't make it just."

BBC diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus says the real question is what, if anything, will change now that the barrier has been declared illegal.

Arab governments are likely to seek an emergency session of the General Assembly to try to secure a resolution endorsing the court's decision.

But experts caution against any expectation of tough UN action - not least because of the US veto in the Security Council.

<span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'>Israelis say the barrier keeps militants away</span>

[kavoven 4]

You all equate it to the Berlin wall.

Why? There's no point.

In Berlin's case there were Germans on both sides, regardless of the political directions their governments took(or were forced to take). There was common interest for the wall to go! East Berliners were driving cars 100km/h through checkpoints just to get to the west.

How many Palestinians (apart from the suicidal ones) did you hear about "defecting" to Israel?

These are not the same people, they've hated each other for a long time.

Until the attacks stop on both sides the wall is gonna stand; there's even probably going to be another one built=>this time on the legitimate Israeli border.

And before you all start to flame me, think what you would do in Ariel Sharon's place.

There are many points, in which you can compare those two walls.

-They are/were build to keep people in an area

-Israli guards will do exacly the same, as the GDR guards did, when they'll see, that someone wants to pass it, they'll shoot.

-I dont think, that it's the right methode, to stop terrorism, but it will tell the Palestinian, as I already wrote in my last post, that they aren't interested in a solution.

You're asking what would we do, if we were Sharon?

It would give the Palestianen their country, and stop taking them their rights!

You can ask the question the other way round:

What would you do, if you were a Palestinian? Their "Solution" is even as bad, as that one, of Israel. But I can understand their position more, then that of the Israeli, because they're not supportet by billions of $ from the US. What would you do, if other people are taking your land, to build a wall on it?

I wouldn't sit down in a corner and say:

"Well, I can't do anything against that, i've just lost my fields and trees, my work and so on, but, why do I bother?"

It's just stupid, because it will provocate more attacks on Israel!

[InqWiper 0]

Quote[/b] ]So I think that the wall is only way to peace.

Please have a look at bn880s signature.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Move the wall to the internationaly recognised border.

Kind Regards Walker

[aviel 0]

SORRY BUT...

man! i lived in israel for 7 years!!!

19th juli i am flying to israel fo my vacation.

(currectly i live in holland for family reasons)

i think the wall is the best option!

i think its better than endless war!!!

thos STUPID RETARDED arrabs will not GIVE UP.

they will continu killing our pepole!!!

U GUYS JUST DONT UNDERSTAND

THINK ABOUT THIS:

YOU ARE WALKING WITH YOUR FREINDS TO A DISCO, YOU GUYS HAVING THE TIME OF URE LIVE!! WITH OTHER CHILDREN AGGED 14 TO 30 IN THE DISCO, SUDDENDLY. BOOM. ALL OF YOU ARE DEAD! ALL OF YOU. AND THE SURVIVOURS?? THE SURVIVOURS ARE HAVING PSYCHICAL PROBLEMS FOR THE REST OF THEYR LIVE!!

AND OUR DEAD SOLDIERS?

WHAT HAVE THEYRE POOR MOM LEFT??? ONLY A PICTURE!!!

ARABS ARE LIKE THIS: LIGHTS CAMARA ACTION!! AND THEY CRYING AND CRYIN OHHHH!! THEYR HOUSE... WELL F**K THEYR HOUSE!!! THERE FAMILY AND LIVE ARE UNHARMD!!

PLEASE!!! ALL OF YOU CONTRA ISRAEL! BECOME PRO ISRAEL

PS.

i saw real ugly things a child that is 12 years old shoul'nt see.

(sory for bad langauge, i am just so... i cant explain. its like a inner anger, that i must shout up in th forums.

sorry mods. last time i exessive ''caps'')

[denoir 0]

thos STUPID RETARDED arrabs will not GIVE UP.

goodbye

[EiZei 0]

SORRY BUT...

i think the wall is the best option!

i think its better than endless war!!!

thos STUPID RETARDED arrabs will not GIVE UP.

they will continu killing our pepole!!!

...

ARABS ARE LIKE THIS: LIGHTS CAMARA ACTION!! AND THEY CRYING AND CRYIN OHHHH!! THEYR HOUSE... WELL F**K THEYR HOUSE!!! THERE FAMILY AND LIVE ARE UNHARMD!!

...

(sory for bad langauge, i am just so... i cant explain. its like a inner anger, that i must shout up in th forums.

sorry mods. last time i exessive ''caps'')

Well, denoir got to it first.

[raedor 8]

do you really think that the war ends only because of that wall? i'm sure that i.e. the palestinians which owned the land on which parts the wall stand now are not very pleased about that. so what are they gonna do? i think you can imagine it.

[der bastler 0]

SORRY BUT...

[read it above]

(sory for bad langauge, i am just so... i cant explain. its like a inner anger, that i must shout up in th forums.

sorry mods. last time i exessive ''caps'')

That's exactly what's feeding this conflict.

Eye for an eye.

In the end all parties are blind...

Counter-argument: Think of walking down the street and BOOM a rocket hits the block near you. Later they say that there ought to be a terrorist inside the house and "Sorry for the collateral damage"...

Don't you get it? This killing will never stop if you talk of "retarded arabs" and regard them as some kind of non-humans who you can treat like dogs.

[bucket man 2]

SORRY BUT...

[punch of racist thoughts and uselles shit]

Oh my fucking god! How can anyone who knows about the conflict between Israel and Palestine think this way?

[shinRaiden 0]

Having traveled through some of the areas in concern, and noting the terrain, a few comments are in order to correct some mis-understandings.

1) The high berlinesque concrete sections are more for defense against snipers. The entire run is not constructed of those super-jersey barriers, there is large sections, such as in rural areas, that are classic border easements, with patrol roads and standard wire fence. Only in built-up urban areas and areas with historical problems with snipers are the concrete walls being put up.

2) The Israeli high court this week rejected 30 of 40km of contested condemnations for fence easements. (report in Jerusalem Post) The primary contention was that the the placing of the fence in these cases would unreasonably restrict access to uncontested Palestinian property. The IDF has has countered with the very valid concern that in several areas, heavy rocket attacks are originating from orchards, hiding the launcher vehicles under the trees.

3) The biggest problem with most of the fence placing inside the 1967 line, aside from the incursions for the settlements around Jerusalem, Bethlehem, and towards Nablus, is that the 1967 line in many places topographically is not a good tactical position. The entire area is extremely rugged, with 1000~1500m elevation fluctuations. The fence is generally placed in a strategicly defensible position. This is similar to the Golan Heights, in that who ever controls that sliver of high ground in the middle has the ability to control all the territory around it.

4) There are significant incursions for the protection of the settlements. Removing the settlements would simplify the fence positioning, and eliminate a shell excuse for terrorist activity. However, proposals to remove those settlements have been bottled up in the Knesset and in the Courts, and until that issue is politically resolved, the government has an obligation to protect the citizens from armed aggression.

5) Palestinians in the village of Umm el-Fahm, on the Israeli side of the fence from Jenin, are quietly supporting the construction of the fence. It turns out that the thugs in Jenin were sneaking through their village, stealing their laundry to disguse themselves, harassing the villagers, burglarizing their homes, and launching attacks from Umm el-Fahm, resulting in Israeli response targeting Umm el-Fahm. Now that the fence is going up, the Islamic Palestinian villagers are quietly supporting their embattled mayor, who has been raked over the coals by the palestinian media for being a collaborator. For those of you who may not be aware, the punishment for being a collaborator in the Palestinian areas is generally public execution by vigilante mobs.

6) Much of the arguments and appeals made in court have been regarding the seizure of property for the fence easement. Unlike international borders, which have a mathmatical line width of null between marker points, a physical construction like a fence requires some land to be built on. Patrol roads to ensure the safety and reliability of the structure require additional setbacks. Governments have the right to execute emminent domain condemnation of property where the condemnation is for a public project of ample community benefit, and the property owner has rejected all reasonable offers.

The reason this form of siezure is not exercised more democratically free countries is that such findings are appealable to the courts, where in the case of this fence, the appeals are in many cases being successfully litigated. The delays caused be the litigation can potentially cause unacceptable delays in the construction.

Now if the palestinians had been teaching their kids to go to school and be lawyers and doctors, instead of blowing themselves up so mommy and daddy can get lots of money from Osama and Saddam, maybe A, we wouldn't be worrying about a fence, and B, they'd do better in court too.

[shinRaiden 0]

In regards to the comments aviel made,

For those of you who have served in combat, you've no doubt seen some rough stuff. But you're probably able to come home and sleep peacefully, knowing that who ever you were fighting, whether in the ME, in Kosovo, or in countless other places, is far away, and won't affect your commute, or snipe your kids at school, or hit you at the club.

My only disagreement is that because of the nature of the ME culture, that there is a lot of pimping for the camera on all sides. I do agree that a bunch of stuff you see in the media is bogus, but I pin that more on incompetent idiots in the media, that fall for every sucker line fed to them.

(Be careful about using all caps though. Your message may never sink in, but you can get technically in trouble for all caps posting.)

[denoir 0]

Now if the palestinians had been teaching their kids to go to school and be lawyers and doctors, instead of blowing themselves up so mommy and daddy can get lots of money from Osama and Saddam, maybe A, we wouldn't be worrying about a fence, and B, they'd do better in court too.

How many palestinians are there? How many suicide bombers have there been?

This is an incredibly racist statement.

[Colossus 2]

I'm begining to belive that I have to close this topic if

people can't be more civilized.

[Scŕth-Siorrai 0]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2....printer

Quote[/b] ]Second, the fence. Only about a quarter of the separation fence has been built, but its effect is unmistakable. The northern part is already complete, and attacks in northern Israel have dwindled to almost nothing.

This success does not just save innocent lives; it changes the strategic equation of the whole conflict.

Yasser Arafat started the intifada in September 2000, just weeks after he had rejected, at Camp David, Israel's offer of withdrawal, settlement evacuation, sharing of Jerusalem and establishment of a Palestinian state. Arafat wanted all that, of course, but without having to make peace and recognize a Jewish state. Hence the terror campaign -- to force Israel to give it all up unilaterally.

[bn880 5]

I can't beleive some of the comments here lately, sad...

[bn880 5]

Well technical solutions can be part of it IMO. Not like this though. Sure it has made it a lot harder, but boy is their blood boiling now...

Okay Scŕth-Siorrai so I quote myself.

The wall implemented in this particular manner serves to propagate the hatred between the two sides, and further destroys Palestinian infrastructure/ecomomy.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Okay Scŕth-Siorrai so I quote myself.

The wall implemented in this particular manner serves to propagate the hatred between the two sides, and further destroys Palestinian infrastructure/ecomomy.

Arafat messed up in 2000....

[bn880 5]

this is really childish...