Huygens set for Titan encounter

[theavonlady 2]

<span style='font-size:27pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>WE WANNA REFUND!</span></span>

[aviel 0]

not related but: Esa, good job!! this is paybacktime to nasa (the mars probe of Esa crashed... remember?)

[jakerod 254]

Well I now have a new dream in life, I want to be the first man to step onto Titan. Time to go freeze myself for a few hundred years.

[theavonlady 2]

Well I now have a new dream in life, I want to be the first man to step onto Titan. Time to go freeze myself for a few hundred years.

Not again!

[jakerod 254]

haha nice.

It said it takes 7 years to get there right? So assuming I left now I would be 31 before I got back. That would suck.

[denoir 0]

As cool as seeing images from Titan is, I think the money that goes into some of these things could be better spent nearer to this mudball we call Earth.

Exactly what did we get out of this? Pictures of rocks, and proof that our theory of Titan being a frozen, primordial chunk of rock being proved.

These are long-term projects. Don't you for instance think there was a bunch of social and economic projects in Europe that could have needed money instead of going exploring other continents. America for instance was of no economic interest, bunch of wood, rocks and some poor natives. Certainly nothing of immidate value.

Also, try to see it through a historical perspective. If you think back of the 60's and 70's - what was a better use of money - the Vietnam War or the landing on the moon?

Before the landing, we had no idea what Titan looked like. All high-altitude scans (images, radar etc) were more or less deflected by the atmosphere. Now we're getting an idea of what it looks down there.

Furthermore, it's interesting from the point of view of understanding how life is created. Titan's atmosphere is full of complex CH compounds - even aminoacids. the building blocks of life. Exchange the methane for water and you have a pretty good picture of how earth looked a while ago.

Also, Titan is a good candidate for life evolving. Although a bit cold, it's quite possible that methane-based bacteria and single-celled organisms could have evolved there.

I fully approve the use of my taxmoney this way

[edc 0]

What exactly should we do instead of spending money on space exploration? Space exploration helps all of man kind and improves our future. Eventually, as long as we keep up exploring space, everyday people will probably live on other planets. Maybe not in any of our life times, but it won't happen ever if we just spend that money on fixing "problems" here on earth. What if cavemen millions of years ago just kept using fire from lightning instead of learning how to make it themselves? They had to take a risks, and make sacrifices using time that might have been spent finding food or defending themselves. If anything, more money needs to be spent on space exploration. We need manned missions to places like Titan and Europa, and Mars, and we need to make more of an effort to find life out side of our solar system. We should make it a priority to find asteroids that come will come near the earth, and develop methods to change their course if necessary. We should find ways to use the minerals on asteroids, other planets, and moons. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to improve peoples lives, but we should not sacrifice knowledge and man kind's future for that. Curiosity has always driven mankind to go further. We shouldn't stop that now.

There will always be problems here on earth, even if every penny is spent on trying to fix them and every single person works for to try to fix them. Some of the problems we just have to accept for now and move on, possibly coming back later if we think we know how to fix them then. I'm talking about space exploration and problems here on earth very broadly and making a lot of generalizations....so keep that in mind.

[Commander-598 0]

Who said anything about not spending money on space exploration?

What I mean is, instead of sending some oversized chunk of metal worth an ungodly sum of money to someplace that we had a well educated guess to being mostly useless to just about everything, we probably should have built some next generation shuttle, something that can lift extremely heavy loads into orbit, or making the 40 story fuel tank that we need to reach orbit obsolete.

Maybe things will change to something more useful when China figures out the technology to build a large, mobile platform for launching munitions(Read: Orbital Bombardment) from orbit is already here.

[Commander-598 0]

Also, Titan is a good candidate for life evolving. Although a bit cold, it's quite possible that methane-based bacteria and single-celled organisms could have evolved there.

I fully approve the use of my taxmoney this way

So, for several billion dollars, we MAY find simple single-celled organisms, (Probably)much like the ones living in the puddle outside your house.

Would you mind loaning me some money for a bag of chips?

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore, it's interesting from the point of view of understanding how life is created. Titan's atmosphere is full of complex CH compounds - even aminoacids. the building blocks of life. Exchange the methane for water and you have a pretty good picture of how earth looked a while ago.

But we already had this exact same picture of how Earth looked back then, before anybody decided to go to Titan. I don't think we need anymore research on the subject.

[edc 0]

Knowing more details about how life may have formed/the conditions it formed under can only help us to determine what other moons/planets/extra-solar planets could possibly have/had life.

[hellfish6 7]

I don't know that there's anything in the universe worth not knowing.

I'm glad the probe landed and I hope we send more, and to more places.

[Bernadotte 0]

I fully approve the use of my taxmoney this way

Assuming there are no big surprises in the data being received from Titan, would you approve of a Titan II mission being launched in the near future?  I'm not sure I would, although I'm quite satisfied with what this mission pulled off.

Exactly what did we get out of this? Pictures of rocks, and proof that our theory of Titan being a frozen, primordial chunk of rock being proved.

LOL... I'm sure you realise that they didn't go there just to prove Titan is a frozen, primordial chunk of rock.  But even if that was the only reason, don't forget that Titan is one of the only places in the solar system that we could not prove that from Earth.  So, without actually going there, the possibility remained that it was much more than just a frozen, primordial chunk of rock.

Like I said above, I'm glad we went, but I'm not yet convinced we need to go back.

[denoir 0]

So, for several billion dollars, we MAY find simple single-celled organisms, (Probably)much like the ones living in the puddle outside your house.

Would you mind loaning me some money for a bag of chips?

Finding life, any form of life, in the universe would be the greatest discovery in the history of the human race. Not only would we be finding out the answer to the ultimate question - if we are alone or not, but we would get to know a million other fundamental things. Would that life-form be anything like the ones on earth? Would it have something similar to DNA? etc

We'd get to know what to expect in future space exploration, a perspective of our own development etc

Quote[/b] ]But we already had this exact same picture of how Earth looked back then, before anybody decided to go to Titan. I don't think we need anymore research on the subject.

Actually, we don't know anything yet as they have not done any analysis of the data so far. The data collected will keep scientist occupied for years, and you can expect quite a few new theories to come up from it.

Not to mention that the whole thing tested a number of new advanced engineering technologies that will come in handy for future exploration. This mission was far more advanced than your regular Mars landing. The atmosphere is far thicker on Titan and Huygens featured a fairly radical new heat-shield design which worked superbly. The descent was much more complex. The communication system is revolutionary etc

You can expect all that to be useful in the next generation of space craft.

Bernadotte:

Quote[/b] ]Assuming there are no big surprises in the data being received from Titan, would you approve of a Titan II mission being launched in the near future? I'm not sure I would, although I'm quite satisfied with what this mission pulled off.

Yes I would. If I don't have to give up any other space missions that is. I'd like for instance see a probe to Europa, to check out the presumed ocean under its ice layer.

But yes, I'd like to see a Huygens II mission, especially one armed with instruments to hunt down potential life-forms.

There are two things that I'm primarily interested in when it comes to space: human space-flight and the search for life on other planets. Titan is a promising candidate for the latter.

[Bernadotte 0]

Not only would we be finding out the answer to the ultimate question - if we are alone or not...

Of the many people who also regard this as the ultimate question, I've found that most ask it in a somewhat religious context - as if finding life elsewhere will somehow help liberate the world's religious fanatics from their primitive dogma.

Why do you consider it the ultimate question?  

Oh, and what would be the 2nd most ultimate question - the one we will start asking the day after life is found elsewhere?  

[denoir 0]

Not only would we be finding out the answer to the ultimate question - if we are alone or not...

Of the many people who also regard this as the ultimate question, I've found that most ask it in a somewhat religious context - as if finding life elsewhere will somehow help liberate the world's religious fanatics from their primitive dogma.

Why do you consider it the ultimate question?  

Yes, I do think it the religious connection makes sense. That it will broaden our view of the universe.

Furthermore it is an existential question, without any religious conotations. It puts us (humans) into context in the universe.

And third, if there's life nearby in our solar system, there's a big chance that we also have intelligent life in some other, more distant places. Interaction with another intelligent spieces would mean immensly in the development of our civilization. We would get a whole new perspective on things, and learn quite a bit.

Quote[/b] ]Oh, and what would be the 2nd most ultimate question - the one we will start asking the day after life is found elsewhere?  

Why my socks keep disappearing in the laundry.  

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]Oh, and what would be the 2nd most ultimate question - the one we will start asking the day after life is found elsewhere?  

Why my socks keep disappearing in the laundry.  

LMAO     Same here.

One more OT question:

I've often thought that our radiowave communication system is just a very small technological stepping stone.  And that even slightly more advanced life forms elsewhere are already using something completely diffent, like gravity waves or even quantum entanglement.  Perhaps we are like an early American Indian tribe that still uses smoke signals and, on first seeing the smog over Los Angeles, says, "Damn, nothing but noise."

In other words, the only extraterrestrial civilisation we may ever be able to find with our SETI radio telescopes is one that happens to be traversing the exact same techonological phase we are right now, which may actually only have a time span equal to about 1 frame out of an entire feature length film.

What's the likelihood that this might be happening?  

[nephilim 0]

hm i hope they find some life there

could get pretty boring being lonely in space

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Oh, and what would be the 2nd most ultimate question - the one we will start asking the day after life is found elsewhere?  

Why my socks keep disappearing in the laundry.  

Check the inside of your pillow cases and fitted sheet corners.

But you knew that already or was that question #3?

[nephilim 0]

lol

[der bastler 0]

First, the answer is 42.

What I mean is, instead of sending some oversized chunk of metal worth an ungodly sum of money to someplace that we had a well educated guess to being mostly useless to just about everything, we probably should have built some next generation shuttle, something that can lift extremely heavy loads into orbit, or making the 40 story fuel tank that we need to reach orbit obsolete.

Don't tell me that you think they stopped the development of new shuttles for Cassini-Huygens?

NASA and ESA don't have only one department for all ops. And adding personnel/money to a project does not necessarily increase development speed. Let's say R&D behaves nonlinear.

R&D is happening simultaneously. Concurrent. Some of the experiences with Cassini-Huygens are fed back to space craft development departments. and while Cassini-Huygens is on its way development goes on.

ESA facts and figures

Quote[/b] ]Where do ESA’s funds come from?

ESA’s mandatory activities (space science programmes and the general budget) are funded by a financial contribution from all the Agency’s Member States, calculated in accordance with each country’s gross national product. In addition, ESA conducts a number of optional programmes. Individual country decides in which optional programme they wish to participate and the amount of their contribution.

How big is ESA’s budget?

In 2003 the budget was €2700 million. ESA operates on the basis of geographical return, i.e. it invests in each Member State, through industrial contracts for space programmes, an amount more or less equivalent to each country’s contribution.

How much does each European spend on ESA?

European per capita investment in space is very little. On average, every citizen of an ESA Member State pays, in taxes for expenditure on space, about the same as the price of a cinema ticket. In the United States, investment in civilian space activities is almost four times as much.

[Blake 0]

It's been great to see that Titan mission has been mostly arousing success, but how come the pictures are so dismally low-quality? Maybe some bandwith should have been used to produce at least few hi-res photos. I mean come on, Viking missions to Mars produced photos light-years ahead of these low-res ones back in the 70s.

[denoir 0]

I've often thought that our radiowave communication system is just a very small technological stepping stone.  And that even slightly more advanced life forms elsewhere are already using something completely diffent, like gravity waves or even quantum entanglement.  Perhaps we are like an early American Indian tribe that still uses smoke signals and, on first seeing the smog over Los Angeles, says, "Damn, nothing but noise."

In other words, the only extraterrestrial civilisation we may ever be able to find with our SETI radio telescopes is one that happens to be traversing the exact same techonological phase we are right now, which may actually only have a time span equal to about 1 frame out of an entire feature length film.

What's the likelihood that this might be happening?  

It's quite a feasible theory. Even now on Earth, we see a trend towards much shorter range, low power EM transmissions that are hardly detectable outside of our solar system. Long wave radio is amost extinct and in a not too distant future, our planet will be fairly undetectable EM-wise. So our EM visible period will be some 100-200 years, an extremely short time. If other civilizations in the universe have evolved in a similar manner, it's very unlikely that in any systems close enough a civilization developed the same stages in the same time period.

Over time, I'm sure we'll find some other ways of communication as well. Quantum entanglement is indeed such a potential technology for ridiculously fast communication.

As for the likelyhood of it, it's impossible to say as we don't have any basis to make an estimate. It's just speculations.

[denoir 0]

It's been great to see that Titan mission has been mostly arousing success, but how come the pictures are so dismally low-quality? Maybe some bandwith should have been used to produce at least few hi-res photos. I mean come on, Viking missions to Mars produced photos light-years ahead of these low-res ones back in the 70s.

I think I said something about this earlier - they're not taken by a regular camera, but by a form of imaging spectrometer. The pictures that we see are just a slice containing the visible frequencies - the actual data contains a very wide specturm. From the other frequencies, we can determine the complete chemical composition of the atmosphere an the ground etc

Furthermore, the Viking landers had much more time and power available. Huygens took some 300+ images in some 3-4 hours and sent it over a 8 kb/s data link - running on a battery. The Vikings had days on the surface and enough solar energy to have a far higher bandwith.

[Donnervogel 0]

It's been great to see that Titan mission has been mostly arousing success, but how come the pictures are so dismally low-quality? Maybe some bandwith should have been used to produce at least few hi-res photos. I mean come on, Viking missions to Mars produced photos light-years ahead of these low-res ones back in the 70s.

Aditionally to what denoir said I can add that the "camera" they used wasn't a normalo cheap camera. It had to be some ultra resistant gallium arsenide hardened sensor thingy that is extremly expensive and difficult to handle (and it was developed almost 10 year ago). Normal cameras wouldn't survive titan long enough to take useable pictures. Furthermore you wouldn't see much on normal pictures because it's quite dark up there.

Also titan's athmosphere doesn't allow much bandwidth to transmit data to cassini and the priority was on other data than on pictures.

The marsian athmosphere allowed higher bandwidth transmissions ans longer periods to do so. They also could use "regular" camera technology on mars.

[Gollum1 0]

What exactly should we do instead of spending money on space exploration? Space exploration helps all of man kind and improves our future.

....

I'm talking about space exploration and problems here on earth very broadly and making a lot of generalizations....so keep that in mind.

Excellent post, agreed.