Common Armour Values System

[cornhelium 0]

Evening mates,

Fix for JAM3 available from the OFPEC JAM page, or here in the JAM3 thread. 3.6mb download.

This gets rid of the error message when letting rip with the CAVS M240.

Cheers,

CH

[Przezdzieblo 0]

New version of test

tank:

http://www.flashpoint.pl/om/public_download/PP/CAVStesttankabrams.rar

/West/Armor/TTANK

- as mentioned before main CAVS values (armor, armorstructural) were doubled (x2); so the most of armorABC (tracks, gun, hull etc.) have rather low (>0.50 value)

- in .rar file I also included TTANK unpboed, so with easier acces to config and o2 files

How does it work against JAM3 ammo and vehicles (modified by TermiPete)?

- TTANK could survive multiple hits; however crew will bail out before enough tank is kaputt

- TTANK has significantly stronger front; HP LOD screening seems to work

- TTANK has significantly weaker sides and rear

f.e. even one PG-7VR could force crew to bail out (destroyed "engine" - simulated by pasP), OTOH 4 would not be enough when hitting front

- crew bails out when "engine" (rear hull) is hit badly or when turret is more than dammaged (pasL selection in the middle of turret)

Problem (?) is that weak AT weapons (f.e. PG-7) make unproportionaly less dammage than stronger projectiles (f.e. PG-7VR), so 3 x 300 DMG hits means less than 1 x 750 DMG hit.

There is a big difference if tank was hit by slow AT weapon or fast tank round. F.e. when PG-7VR hits turret, dammages goes mostly to exterior "turet" selection - just how it was planned. But if high velocity 3BM32 (TermiPete`s new JAM3 Vehicles; still I see the sense in using unmodified/unmultiplied values for such weapons, high speed gives them some kind of "bonus") hit turret, there are many chances that it "penetrate" to inside and the most of dammages goes to pasL selection, which has result in instant crew bail out.

One more thing - due to high speed round there could be found some element of randomisation. F.e. if ussually TTANK would be hit with 2-3 3BM32 round without m-kill or f-kill, sometimes even one round from front could make more dammages (f.e. to hull), which make situation very bad for American tank.

So, please test this baby and say what you think

In my oppinion it could be some CAVS compatible option, lets say "deep" model modification.

[.kju 3245]

well i did just test so far the tank vs itself, but its very impressive i'd say !

excellent work

[TermiPete 0]

Fascinating stuff Prez!

I've updated the files on the CAVS page.

VEHICLE CHANGES:

* CAVSed the T55 into a T55A with D10T2S firing 3BM8, 3BK17 and 3OF32

ARMOR CHANGES:

* Lights = 0.2 (these need to be more vulnerable)

* Tracks  = a bit more complex

if armored trackskirts = yes then = 1 x (0.4 if side armor unknown) or 1 x (mm side armor /mm hull armor)

if armored trackskirts = no then = 0.67 x (0.4 if side armor unknown) or 1 x (mm side armor /mm hull armor)

I decided that tracks should more or less vulnerbale depending on the strength of side armor if there are armored skirts in place. The next step here would be to define absolute values for how much damage a set of tracks can take, and the same for different types of wheels. It seems daft that the more structural strength the tank body has, the less vulnerable the tracks, wheels and rollers are in direct proportion.

I seem to get some CTDs when running this under ECP - any ideas?

At this point I also kind of need to stop doing this as I have many other competing priorities - can someone else take over? King Homer is going to tweak the ammo names next i believe.

TP

[LennyD 0]

At this point I also kind of need to stop doing this as I have many other competing priorities - can someone else take over?

Hope this is going on....followed the progress with exitement.

[miles teg 1]

Wow... I hadn't been keeping up on this thread in awhile and just checked in. I'm VERY impressed. This is definitely a major improvement in armor dammage simulation in OFP.

Keep up the awesome work!

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[KaRRiLLioN 0]

I hope this isn't considered digging up an old thread but since it has so much data on OFP armor, I thought this would be the best place to ask.

After testing a lot with OFP it seems that in addition to the armor value, it also depends somwhat on the size of the unit in question.  Also, armorstructural seems to be simply a multiplier for the global armor setting.

For example I set a tank to global armor of 500 and armorstructural to 2.  I shot a round with 200 direct dmg, 1 indirect dmg and 1 indirect range.  I can't remember the exact figures but the hit EH returned a damage of 10%.  I then took the same tank, set armor to 1000 armor, armorstructural of 1 and the same ammo round did identical damage.  So from what I can tell the OFP armorstructural setting only multiplies times the global armor, i.e. 500 armor * 2 armorstructural = 1000 armor.

Also each and every hit did identical damage regardless of where on the tank it hit. The only hitpoint that caused a premature death was the engine one. If you set it to say .85 and deal that amount of damage to the tank there then it dies before global armor hits 0.

This is the mystery to me because it doesn't seem to affect the vehicle in any other way that I can tell.  I then took a large set of tanks varying in sizes and used the same ammo round to find how much armor would return a 10% damage ratio per hit.  The armor values varied wildly.  I had to set smaller tanks to much higher armor values to achieve the same amount of damage.

We also experimented by making a 1x1 cube and giving it armor, shooting it with a bullet with 1 direct dmg and then made a 10x10 cube with same armor.  The bullet did much less damage to the 10x10 cube.

Unfortunately our discussions were on ICQ and I don't keep a history so I couldn't copy over the exact figures.

Also with the tanks, the hitpoints assigned to various parts of the tanks were blackened and disabled in the same # of hits regardless of armorstructural.

So my primary questions is, does armorstructural actually change anything aside from increasing the global armor?

[sanctuary 19]

Nice someone bumped this, as i would add the following

For everyone willing to have a test with CAVS settings.

Here is a BIS config with the cfgammo section modified to use the latest CAVS damages values and in the cfgvehicles the APC and MBT modified to use the latest CAVS values maxspeed,armor,armorstructural,armorHull,armorTurret,armorGun,armorEngine,armorLights,armo

rTracks).

Get it there

http://rapidshare.de/files/13829349/CAVSconfig.rar.html

or there

http://www.easy-sharing.com/267860/CAVSconfig.rar.html

or there

http://s1.ultrashare.net/hosting/fs/283bdbc09e37dabd/

(191 ko)

To install, just open the winrar file you just downloaded, get the folder @CAVSTEST that is present inside of it , then put it in

...\Codemasters\Operation Flashpoint\

to obtain

...\Codemasters\Operation Flashpoint\@CAVSTEST

Once done, modify an OFP shortcut and add

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">-mod=@CAVTEST

at the end of the target line of such OFP shortcut.

Launch OFP with that shortcut to play with the CAVS values.

Here is some test i did using this config modified to CAVS values

This is how many specific missiles you need to destroy a specific target.

-Notice that it means destroy in the way the tank is exploding, it does not take in acconut the fact the crews were probably already dead before or if the target was disabled and unable to fight back.

This is how many specific SABOT hits you need to detroy a specific target

-Again, notice that destroy mean "target explode", crew could be already dead before or the target could be already disabled.

Of course, values are always discutables, but as you see, the current CAVS values can change a lot the way you will play with armor, as you just can't expect destroy a whole M1A1 or T80 platoon with just LAW/RPG anymore.

Have fun testing/tweaking (included an editable version of the config).

[KaRRiLLioN 0]

Technically it wasn't a bump as I was trying to find out if armorstructural is anything besides a multiplier for global armor.

[sanctuary 19]

From the CAVS website

Quote[/b] ]About : you have different parts on an OFP tank, described in the hitHull, hitEngine, etc... part of the config.cpp. Each has its own "hitpoints". The tank also has a global "health point" value, set in the "armor" parameter in the config. Each localized hitPoints are calculated from the global armor, by multiplying it by the number found in the hitHull section under armorHull, armorEngine, etc...500 armor, 0.7 armorEngine means the "engine" selection in the hit LOD of the P3D model will have 500*0.7=250 hitpoints.

When hit, a tank will give damage to every part hit. If hit for 300 in Hull and Engine, hitHull and hitEngine will be reduced by 300 each. In addition, the global armor will be decreased by the sum of damages done to localized parts, divided by the armorStructural parameter. In my example,300 + 300 = 600, divided by 2 armorStructural = 300 hit to global armor.

When global armor reaches zero, the tank explodes.

When HitTracks reaches zero, the tank can't move.

When HitEngines reaches zero, the tank can't move.

When HitTurret reaches zero, tank can't fire, if I remember well, or bad things happen to the crew.

When HitGun reaches zero, gun is inoperative (blackened and aiming at ground)

When HitHull reaches zero, tank explodes after a few seconds

[KaRRiLLioN 0]

Ok, so all it really does is act as a multiplier for armor.

Example 1:

1000 armor, 1 armorstructural.  

I take a 300+300 hit / 1 armorstructural = 600 or 60% damage amount to the tank.

Example 2:

500 armor, 2 armor structural take the 300+300 hit / 2 = 300 or 60% damage to tank.

So in otherwords armorstructural really provides no useful function, you might as well give your tank 1000 armor with 1 armorstructural instead of 500 with 2 armorstructural, right?

Or is my math completely off?

I read that quote earlier in the thread but was seeing if anyone had discovered some other hidden use for armorstructural besides the multiplier effect.

[Przezdzieblo 0]

Also each and every hit did identical damage regardless of where on the tank it hit.  The only hitpoint that caused a premature death was the engine one.  If you set it to say .85 and deal that amount of damage to the tank there then it dies before global armor hits 0.

My impressions are that tank will blow up in three cases:

- global armour reaches zero

- engine armour reaches zero

- hull armour reaches zero

So try hull one more time

This is the mystery to me because it doesn't seem to affect the vehicle in any other way that I can tell.  I then took a large set of tanks varying in sizes and used the same ammo round to find how much armor would return a 10% damage ratio per hit.  The armor values varied wildly.  I had to set smaller tanks to much higher armor values to achieve the same amount of damage.

The reason might be the way OFP "see" dammages. If you got round DIR DMG only (no INDIR DMG) then dammages goes to the nearest vertrices (of HP-LOD selection). So if you hit turret with sabot, it is possible, that all dammages would go to `turet` - and global armour.

F.e. TTANK with `AS` (armour structural)=2, armor=500 vs round DIR DMG=300, INDIRDMG=0. Hit in turret, 300 dmg goes to `turet` selection, then 150 (300/`AS`) to global armour.

But if you got round with some "splash" (INDIR DMG), that it is possible that dammage "pattern" would touch more than one HP-LOD selection. When vehicle is small, probability of this rise (selections are closer, pattern with high INDIR DMG RaNGe could touch all!.

F.e. TTANK with `AS` (armour structural)=2, armor=500 vs round DIR DMG=0, INDIRDMG=100, INDIRDMG RNG=2. Hit in turret, 100 dmg goes to `turet` selection, then 50 (100/`AS`) to global armour. But due to 2 meters range dammages goes also to `gun`, `hull` and `engine` selections. This means 3 x 50 = 150 additional dammages to global armour. This is why in OFP IMHO HE rounds often are more devastating than AP rounds (unless AP round have veeery high DIR DMG or additional INDIR DMG)

When target is smaller all selections could get under INDIR DMG pattern - and then global armour could be heavier affected.

We also experimented by making a 1x1 cube and giving it armor, shooting it with a bullet with 1 direct dmg and then made a 10x10 cube with same armor.  The bullet did much less damage to the 10x10 cube.

Mass differs?

If you got cube there are 8 vertrices, right? OFP dammage system see only vertrices, so if no are near to limited effect of direct dammage round, I guess the only dammages to object goes because of velocity and mass.  

So my primary questions is, does armorstructural actually change anything aside from increasing the global armor?

IMHO it really decreassing dammages that goes to global armour.

Well, it might have some other, long-term influence.

I test "my" TTANK with various values to make some HP-LOD selections more vulnerable (tracks, turret side) than others. And found out that low percentage of global protection matters.

F.e. Tank ONE armor=1000, armorturet=0.2

TANK TWO armor=500 armorturet=0.4

In both cases armorturet=200. But it would be easier to KO TANK ONE, where armorturet % value (20% of global armour) is lower.

So, you can see that theoriticaly stronger vehicle would be KOed faster (with destroyed `turet` it would be useless) than weaker one. But in same time remember that if `AS` is the same in both cases, then TANK TWO will lost it`s armor-hit points faster and blow up. With high `AS` value we have a chance to control "survivability". And to make OFP tanks KOed, with crew abandoning than melted vehicles and burned crew.

[sanctuary 19]

Interesting

Quote[/b] ]OFP dammage system see only vertrices

In that case, how damage is managed by those addons without a "Hit-points" LOD ?

Does the damage is globally done to every (even non existent in the model but appeared with the config "armorhul" "armorengine" etc....) part of the vehicle in the same time.

Or does OFP consider a vehicle without Hit-points LOD to be just a monolithic block and so use only a "global" armor value to calulate the damage and so ignore the gun/hullengine ?

Or does another LOD is used by OFP for the damages if the Hit-points one is missing ?

[KaRRiLLioN 0]

Has anyone actually PM's Suma or someone at BIS to ask for the formula?  I can't see why they wouldn't divulge it.

Przezdzieblo, from my tests it appeared that adding indirect dmg does something to the equation.

In my first test I had direct dmg 200, indirect 0, range 0.  The hit event handler returned a dmg of .10384 and an overal dmg of .10384--identical as expected.  Every hit after that was identical dmg, regardless of where on the tank I hit.

Next I added 10 indirect dmg with 0 range to the same ammo.  It returned .0937258 dmg.  Notice that the direct dmg amount decreased when I added indirect dmg.

Next I had 10 indirect dmg with 1 range.  Results were .0937158 hit dmg, .0980274 overall dmg, so the direct dmg stayed constant, then the extra 1 range I guess hit some other vertexes if that's what OFP looks for.

I increased range and it did increased damage slightly after that.

Anyway, it's odd how adding indirect dmg will lower the direct dmg amount.  It's all somewhat confusing anyway.

Oh and Sanctuary, I know that OFP defaults to the Geo LOD if there's no Hit Points or Fire LOD, but how it discerns where something is hit...I don't think it can but just assigns the usual dmg without disabling anything. Then again I haven't tested that so I don't know for sure.

[hellfish6 7]

Who is more or less the leader of CAVS now? I'm trying to get in contact with you guys and I'm not getting any email or PM replies. Please PM me if you're a part of CAVS.

[.kju 3245]

i fear no one

[Blackbuck 9]

cornhelium refered me to you guys as leaders of JAM with my suggestion of a 100rd magazine/belt for m249 paras etc.

something like the following maybe

JAM_W556M_100Mag

JAM_W556M_100HDMag

JAM_W556M_100SDMag

just a idea being as quite a few addons now have minimi paras and are jam compat maybe you'd be as so kind to whip up the mag

[Przezdzieblo 0]

AgentFox2

I'm glad to see that someone is taking the reigns for JAM and CAVS. These are one of the two most promising projects, especially with Armed Assault near release.

One of the things I've wondered about CAVS in particular is would there be some attention paid to some of the more obscure aspects of balance? Things like radar and/or detection range, fuel capacity, speed, weapon accuracy, and turret-traverse speed. Items present in real-world armor such as nightvision, thermal imaging equipment, and fire control systems should effect these values. Obviously for some things it won't be possible to get exact values, but some sort of standard would be great, since many times these values dictate the victor of an engagement.

AFAIR you mentioned about the need of such standarization once some time ago. But still, there is no system. It needs researches and resources.

Here simple data of some 1985-era OFP CWC tanks:

M1 (IPM1, M1A1)

Gunner

- optic x3 - x10

1st generation Thermal Imager

Tank Commander

- x3 sight

Fire Control System - yes (automatic)

Hunter-Killer - no

Stabilisation - electrohydraulical, gun - 2 axis, gunner sight - 1 axis

T-72A

Gunner

- x8 day sight

- x5,5 night sight, active NV

TC

- x5 day

- x4,2 night, active NV

FCS - yes (semi-automatic)

H-K - no

Stabilisation - electrohydraulical, turret - 1 axis (horizontal), gunner sight - 1 axis

T-80BV

Gunner

- x8 day sight

- x5,5 passive NV

TC

- x5 day

- x4,2 night, active NV

FCS - yes (automatic)

H-K - no

Stabilisation - electrohydraulical, gunner sight – 2 axis

Note in OFP all magnification values should be doubled, f.e. PSO-1 x4  (SVD scope) should have zoom x8 in config. Abrams` gunner sight x3 - x10 then would be x6 - x20  

Stabilisation - different quality on different vehicles. T-BV and M1A1 got much more better than T-72A or Challenger, can accurately fire on move at moving targets.

FCS - also quality matters, semiauto, auto, is it digital or not.

H-K - it is how TC and gunner cooperate in search&destroy, can TC fire main gun etc.

Optics - no NV, active NV, passive NV (Image Intensifiers), Thermal Imagers (FLIR of various generations). Tank with TI will have great advantage in night, but also better chance to detect and ID target than tank without Thermals.

KaRRiLLioN

What is status of your researches? It looks like you found a good method with OFP dammage system, any more ideas?

[Blackbuck 9]

Note in OFP all magnification values should be doubled, f.e. PSO-1 x4  (SVD scope) should have zoom x8 in config.

the SVD has 3 main sights the PSO1 is a 4x42 magnification sight, the PSOP is an 4x - 12x variable magnification sight, and finally the 1PN-51 improved Night Vision Device check my sig i like SVD's if you didnt guess