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THE UNSUNG MOD - communist campaign?

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Please help us establish if it is worth doing communist campaigns as well to give a more well rounded delivery.

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)rStrangelove @ Nov. 25 2004,23:03)]Boy, a Vietcong campaign would rule. And a US campaign is a must, so .... BOTH.  tounge_o.gif

You know, maybe ARVN? We usually play as a US Marine, Airborne and the like. It might be a nice experience to play as an ARVN or NVA.

Since it'd be a bitch to make so many campaigns... :P I think a Vietcong who is taken into the NVA later on in the campaign might be a nice twist.

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yea i keep a little soft spot in my heart for the ARVN and all south vietnamese soldiers for that matter, youll see them, you may even get to play as them...

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Playing on the North Vietnamese side would be a very original experience.That's what would make your mod intriguing as no Vietnam era game or even movie has embarked in this possibility satisfing themselves of creating a superficial image of skinny commie bastards with funny languange that always die en mass.

Would be intresting how you would put into play this and how you would outline their determination,resiliance and spirit of sacrifice for their cause.

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I would most definitely like to play as a NVA/VC soldier. In this way you can learn about the guerilla warfare these guys waged against the US troops. Fighting from tunnels (Do you plan on making tunnels?), waiting for the choppers to come down to drop the troops and fight, take the fight to the city's and stuff like that. It will be a very good learning experience. I think many people (including me) have little or no idea of how the NVA and VC fought in the Vietnam war and what tactics and stuff they used. How the supply lines were streched and what these people had to go through to stay on that "Keeps disappearing into the jungle" image and be able to fight the US forces that had a superiour fighting force in general.

So most definitely i think you guys should make a double sided campaign. You are a mod that is doing the best job on as a Vietnam era mod, and i personal think that it would not be complete if it hasn't got the other side of the story as well. So i would say green light for the research departement to start searching for info (if they didn't do that already), and you can give the mission making team the green light as well!

You want to deliver the full picture about the Vietnam war, well here's your chance guys! smile_o.gif

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looks like everyone wants both,

damn you make us work  tounge_o.gif

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I agree.  Plus the VC and NVA had unique weapons as well that are interesting.  Some of the most fun in a SEBNAM2 based MP mission was playing against other players as a NVA sniper with a Mosin-Nagant sniper rifle.  I totally felt like a real sniper as I had to guess where the US Navy SEAL assassination team would position their sniper above the camp where my squad and myself were guarding a high ranking NVA officer.  Several times I successfully killed and hunted down the SEAL sniper and his team by positioning myself in a hidden position overlooking the most likely sniping positions.  I simply watched him get into position and then put a bullet in his head.  Afterwhich I killed several of his team mates and then ordered my squad members positioned in other areas to cut off their escape.  I then hunted the survivors down that my AI men hadn't killed.  

It was really very fun and the players playing the American side I think had a lot of fun as it was a real challenge for them to complete the mission.    TJ from BAS was playing the SEAL sniper along with other players from the "alt.games.operation-flashpoint" newsgroup.

But even in Single Player games, I think that a good mission maker can create similar experiences.  Furthermore, the Vietcong and North Vietnamese weren't exactly Nazis or something.  They were a valiant and highly skilled enemy fighting for what what they believed was the unification and liberation of their countrymen.  All in all a tragic war but one in which I think it's easier to see things from both the perspectives of both sides.

Heck, in WWII mods, I even play the Nazis sometimes just because they had such cool weapons.  smile_o.gif   Nothing quite like a MG-42 ripping 'it up or a massive Tiger tank thundering into battle.  smile_o.gif

What I really would also like to see however are South Vietnamese Army units (ARVN).  These guys are often given a bad rap in history, but some of these units faught very valiently in places like Kontum.  The seige of Kontum is to be remembered as a place where many South Vietnamese Army units faught with great heroism destroying a dozen NVA tanks with M-72 LAW rockets.

Also I hope that your mod will include ARVN infantry and armored units (M113, M41, M42, and M48).  

Finally also a Vietnam War mod would not be complete without Montagnard units and ethnic Nung Chinese units who faught valiantly alongside US Special Forces in Vietnam.

So I hope you all will consider those units as well.

Keep up the great work!!!

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

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When you say "both" does that mean two seperate campaigns or swapping from west to east in the same campaign.As i would prefer to play as the US because imho it has a better allround feel.Also we havnt really experienced Vietnam warfare in OFP in a US campaign.Dont forget the sides are pretty evenly matched so it makes it good to be the underdog in jungle warfare.

ps.I dont wanna play as a "gook" because unless you have Vietnamese sounding english voices it wont feel right, and atmosphere is what makes VIETNAM

pps.For those people who wanna learn about the NVA i suggest you read a book, this game is for killing them... tounge_o.gif

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I'd rather play as the VC/NVA. Nothing like having to use guile and your environment to counter and defeat an enemy that's technologically superior.

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The north and the vietcong were fighing to unite their country not invading and killing millions of people for no reason

the viet commies were nothing like the nazis

They fought off the mongols even i think, but they fought off the chinese, the japanese, the french, and eventually, arguably, the Americans.

They deserve much respect, they didnt get to go home until they won the war, which they did.

(edit - sadly the countries involved did not communicate, and did not see the same conflict at hand,

the north and the vietcong saw it as a civil war, and a war against colonialism, where as the US saw it as a coldwar against communism. See that movie/documentary about Robert MacNamara - "The Fog of War" - he talks about meeting a vietnamese leader later in life and realizing they were soo wrong about what they thought of eachother. Vietnamese thougth of te US same and the french, colonialists, and US thought that Vietnam was going to join the Communist empire with russian and china, but Vietnam hated china, theyd been fighting them off longer than anyone else. Sure they got supplies from them, but from what I know China even tried to invade Vietnam again at the end of the "war" and got faught off by the Vietnamese.

anyways, it was a major miscommunication problem.

Well back to work (my real job), sorry if i typed strangly, i tried to get this schpeel out really fast!)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/prc-vietnam.htm

theres the thing about China invading Vietnam after the war with America.

"In February 1979 China attacked along virtually the entire Sino-Vietnamese border in a brief, limited campaign that involved ground forces only. The Chinese attack came at dawn on the morning of 17 February 1979, and employed infantry, armor, and artillery. Air power was not employed then or at any time during the war. Within a day, the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) had advanced some eight kilometers into Vietnam along a broad front. It then slowed and nearly stalled because of heavy Vietnamese resistance and difficulties within the Chinese supply system. On February 21, the advance resumed against Cao Bang in the far north and against the all-important regional hub of Lang Son. Chinese troops entered Cao Bang on February 27, but the city was not secured completely until March 2. Lang Son fell two days later. On March 5, the Chinese, saying Vietnam had been sufficiently chastised, announced that the campaign was over. Beijing declared its "lesson" finished and the PLA withdrawal was completed on March 16. "

hillarious...

"On March 5, the Chinese, saying Vietnam had been sufficiently chastised, announced that the campaign was over. Beijing declared its "lesson" finished and the PLA withdrawal was completed on March 16."

as if they didnt just realize that they shouldnt even bother getting in another war with the country thats been at war for 1000 years... no ones more patient and able to sacrifice than the Vietnamese. Their war never ends (like my rant wink_o.gif ).

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pps.For those people who wanna learn about the NVA i suggest you read a book, this game is for killing them... tounge_o.gif

Yeah, and if I want to learn about the U.S I'll watch one of the hundreds of American Vietnam movies, read the endless stream of books, play the games that are so trendy and done to death today, etc. etc, all from the (clichéd) US perspective.

Let's not learn anything new once in a while, right?

And I find your statement offensive, how does this sound:

pps.For those people who wanna learn about the Americans i suggest you read a book, this game is for killing them... tounge_o.gif

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When you say "both" does that mean two seperate campaigns or swapping from west to east in the same campaign.As i would prefer to play as the US because imho it has a better allround feel.Also we havnt really experienced Vietnam warfare in OFP in a US campaign.Dont forget the sides are pretty evenly matched so it makes it good to be the underdog in jungle warfare.

ps.I dont wanna play as a "gook" because unless you have Vietnamese sounding english voices it wont feel right, and atmosphere is what makes VIETNAM

pps.For those people who wanna learn about the NVA i suggest you read a book, this game is for killing them... tounge_o.gif

Um...Mr. Reality, in case you didn't know calling them gooks is like calling black people niggers.   Its like me saying, I wanna play the VC side so I can kill white American honkeys, crackers, ect...

Or better yet, saying something like:

"I like playing the Al Qaeda and Iraqi addons so I can slaughter you American faggots and rejoice at your deaths, especially the American civilian deaths. Allah will destroy your pagan Jesus!  We need a beheaded American addon. ALLAH AKBAR!!!"

I don't of coarse do that or believe that and would get very very angry if someone posted something like that, but you can see how carelessly posting insensitive racial/nationalist stuff can really piss people off.

I also, by the way, have Vietnamese friends and they're wonderful people, not "gooks".

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

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Quote[/b] ]Um...Mr. Reality, in case you didn't know calling them gooks is like calling black people niggers

Actually no it isn't, "gook" means enemy soldier, it has been used in wars for ages. Calling them a dink would be offensive.

I would love to see the fight from both points of view seeing as nobody has ever covered the VC side of things before. smile_o.gif

sim

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Quote[/b] ]Um...Mr. Reality, in case you didn't know calling them gooks is like calling black people niggers

Actually no it isn't, "gook" means enemy soldier, it has been used in wars for ages. Calling them a dink would be offensive.

I would love to see the fight from both points of view seeing as nobody has ever covered the VC side of things before. smile_o.gif

sim

You could argue, however, that the use of the word "gook" is now used almost exclusively in reference to a Vietnamese person, soldier or otherwise, due to the fact that it was "popularised" in the Western consciousness during the Vietnam War.

On topic, I always found it odd how there are so many war films (and now games) about Vietnam, yet 90% of them are from the perspective of the losing side, whereas the majority of war films and games are from the perspective of the winning side. For example, I can only think of two or three WWII films from the German point of view, but I'm spoiled for choice when I have to pick films from the Allied point of view.

Hence why I'd love to play as the Vietcong or NVA. It'd be refreshing to play as the side you never get to see in that light.

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gook does not mean soldier, its a (korean) slang term for "person", it originated in the Korean war, then moved into Vietnam as well.

It basically is a disrespectful way of referring to the (asian) enemy, and gradually, basically every Vietnamese person to some Americans became "gooks".

What sets the enemy apart from the civil population in that country? a hidden weapon?

edit - @ kooky,

think America would have lost had it not been fighting a "limited" war with one hand tied behind its back?

if the US was allowed to just have ts war against Vietnam, the Us would have won im sure, they would have just nuked them or something along those lines, they never really tried to win the waR!!! do u know that? It was unwinnable, they werent allowed to have a proper war, they were playng by rules the enemy wasnt.

Ive listened to alot of declassified tapes of whitehouse conversations, near the begining Macnamara says to LBJ that they should start finding a way to get their troops out of Vietnam, and Linden johnson didnt want to pull out because they were currently loosing, this is way at the begining, little did he know that 10 years later this war would still be in the same place and even worse... should have just ppulled out way back in the begining.

(They were fighting russia and china *Thru* the vietnam war, to prevent a total war with russia and china... weird i know, but thats true. Like how we funded Osama bun laden to fight the russians in afghanistan)

The enemy was definitly fighting total war, using every tactic they could.

America couldnt invade the north for fear of a war with russia and china, they coulndt go into laos and cambodia, they couldnt really use all the things that makes the US a great power effectively against the illusive enemy... though they tried, and did destroy something anchient and beautiful...

the country.

(another classic Drow 'nam rant)  tounge_o.gif

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A brief history of the tragedy that is Vietnam:-

18th century: France colonized Vietnam thru the corrupt court officials. Unlike the British who leave at least a meaningful public administration legacy in her colonys, France then was rapaciously and brutally taking everything out of the country and leaving nothing behind (except wild oats)

1940: The vichy french administration colloborated with the conquering japs in brutally ruling the country and using its resources to fund the jap war.

A man call Ho Chi Min, a son of a court official who sought to break free from the chains of colonism and corruption formed a party to help OSS agents rescue down allies pilots and terrorise the japs.

1945: Ho's freedom fighting band were happy at the end of the war with american president's words:- the right of all colonised nations to seek self determination. Unfortunately, the president meant only 'white' men - poles and europeans, not asians. The allied powers allowed France to re-colonise Vietnam and even supplied improverised France with landlease equipment. France once again brutually enforce its rule over Vietnam.

Ho seek and pleaded with America for help but unfortunately, no one bothered for they thot Ho was communist due to his years in Russia. The administration was then lacking in asian understanding for Ho and every colonised asian, steeped in confucian ethics would never be the european form of communism.

No one to turn to, Ho moved in the sphere of russian influence for guns to kick the rapacious french out. Forming a nationalist movement, in 1954, they managed to do so, uniting the country as one. Unfortunately, US did not allow it to happen as the fear of Russia made Vietnam a domino and tried several ways to stop the unification of vietnam, sending advisors and influencing the corrupt Vietnam court.

1960's - war with US escalated from advisors to draftees. Westmoreland's policy of attrition rate war was laughable - how many draftees can US field to fight Vietnam's well hidden and entrenched millions? The Arvn - many didnt fight, not because they were chickens, but why support the corrupted vietnam administration??? heavily taxed and no form of social justice for the nationals..forget it!

The vietcongs and NVA had a purpose - to unite the country and bring about social justice for all, not just for the minority corrupt family orientated public administration rulers. Communism, democracy, etc are only politics, ultimately, the man who can run the country properly and give equality to the nation and prosper would be the right political party. It was only a means for the country to be united for once and a chance for self determination with their own resources instead of being rule by outsiders. Good or bad, every political party will get their ass kicked if they dont perform, one way or another - just look at Communist china today -more capitalist then frugal Lenin adherents.

The real tragedy that was Vietnam was the soldiers who took part patriotically on the call of their nation...i know not words to say to them who on both sides who could have been great friends but did not understand each other and ended up hating each other for years - NVA -fighting for their nation, US - fighting for freedom of others( unaware that they are actually enslaving them)....boys, most of them, heros...only 19.........

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Quote[/b] ]1960's - war with US escalated from advisors to draftees.

yea they send in thousands of these kids to fight Vietnamese guys who've been at (guerilla) war some of them for 30+ years and expect them to fight and win with no objectives...

What have we learned from Vietnam? Dont let politicians run wars.

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Quote[/b] ]Um...Mr. Reality, in case you didn't know calling them gooks is like calling black people niggers

Actually no it isn't, "gook" means enemy soldier, it has been used in wars for ages. Calling them a dink would be offensive.

I would love to see the fight from both points of view seeing as nobody has ever covered the VC side of things before. smile_o.gif  

sim

Dude, if you called one of my Vietnamese friends a gook they MOST DEFINITELY would take extreme offense at being called that. Next time you see a Vietnamese person, go and call them a gook and see what happens.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

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