European Politics Thread.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Yes, we should strike hard'n fast, sending main battle tanks in the streets, snipers on the roof, and ATGW fired into enemy learders' home...

Nah, let them riot. Soon they'll get tired of it and just go home.

It is exactly this attitude that I fully despise! In fact it represents nothing else than lazyness and ignorance. These kiddies have been ignored for too long, their problem is not poverty but lack of respect. Same is true for most teenies also in Germany that grow up under a asocial parental guidance and rather resemble the rewind of evolution. Independant from their cultural heritage they have less rethorical capabilities than neanderthals and always blame everything on the unfair society. Fact is no generation ever in human history had more freedom than we do. I say catch them and send them to somalia for a year to do social service. When they return they will finally acknowledge the society they live in.

[Necromancer- 0]

Yes, we should strike hard'n fast, sending main battle tanks in the streets, snipers on the roof, and ATGW fired into enemy learders' home...

Nah, let them riot. Soon they'll get tired of it and just go home.

It is exactly this attitude that I fully despise! In fact it represents nothing else than lazyness and ignorance.

It's just a "funny" remark...

Cool down..

[Ares1978 0]

Please tell me you didn't take that suggestion seriously.

Of course, it would be pointless to suggest that the immediate problem is the riots, not what motivates them. There's plenty of time to deal with the social problems after you have sent in main battle tanks, snipers, ATGW's and giant marmosets and calmed the rioters down.

[harley 3 1185 0]

Hmmm, I wonder what the rioters would do if the French public did what it used to do about twice a week in Algiers back in the 50s when bad things happened.  The average French citizen was far more barbaric back then;  act of terrorism occurs; assumption of Islamic responsibility; French mob assembles in matter of minutes; finds a good length of rope, preferably more; any Arab or anyone of dark complexion had better stay clear of lamp posts.

God only knows how many innocent Algerians were lynched by fear-blood crazed mobs from 1954-1962 - anyone would have thought on first glance that France had put this part of their past behind it.  But if the young rioters want to play hardball, I'm sure there are far more citizens both Christian and Muslim who are willing to reciprocate in kind...A figurative bomb waiting to go off, perhaps.

EDIT:  As for helping pull the average immigrant or child of an immigrant out of poverty, I'm all for pro-active legislation and grants of the kind President Chirac has himself admitted has not been introduced in France. But there are other ways of drawing attention to one's plight.  Looking at the world at large, Rosa Parks has only just been buried.  She stood for an entire movement which spiritually and economically liberated a people.  African-Americans were able to withstand more than 100 years of total injustice in the United States without rioting of the kind seen in Paris in the past fortnight (the riots of 1968 were against the backdrop of Vietnam and a belief that they had been betrayed by the great Lyndon B. Johnson).  Non-violent protest worked its magic in the US.  The people committing the atrocities couldn't wait a generation before getting their hands dirty.  Instead of legally venting their grievances, like the Chartists, like the SCLC, like the shipbuilders in Gdansk, they just went on a God damn rampage.  That is not acceptable, and I hope other people find it so as well.

[GoOB 0]

their problem is not poverty but lack of respect

Have you ever been pulled over in your car for no particular reason, asked alot of quite irrelevant questions, been lead out of your car, stripsearched and then forced to wait for two hours whilst the cops check your criminal background out? Many friendly, law-abiding people in suburbs like these get this kind of treatment from authorities everyday. I'm not saying that it justifies torching cars or throwing rocks at cops. But it's not a one-sided lack of respect that triggers this kind of behaviour, and thats a fact.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

For example if you are of an arab origin and most crimes in your area are committed by arabs then the police pays more attention to you. In their position all of us would do the same. Thats profiling... (even though I must admit the maltese policemen were real bastards)

Anyhow, is that so terrible that you feel like burning your neighbours car and shooting with a pumpgun at policemen? I am so fed up of people blaiming society for their own lazyness. I see it everyday in Berlin.. strong loud teens always ready for a fight but too lazy and proud to work in a gardening company!

Since food and lodging is paid by the government they simply have too much leisure at hand!

[denoir 0]

Yes, we should strike hard'n fast, sending main battle tanks in the streets, snipers on the roof, and ATGW fired into enemy learders' home...

For sure, we have a lot to learn about peace keeping in urban areas from our israeli friends  

Anyway I think a few other things deserve to be mentioned:

1) This is like the tenth time this has happened. And each time the response of the French government has been to dump money into the suburbs for education, urban renewal etc It's not very clever to do the same thing all over again and expect different results. This is what American right-wingers would call "the failure of the welfare society". And I think that to some degree they're right.

When the media talks about the "poor suburbs", one gets an very skewed picture. Yes, unemployment is very high and people there earn comparatively less money than in other places. What is however forgotten is that the French state dumps billions of Euros into these districts. The people who live there have quite a decent material living conditions. These are not equivalents of American inner-city ghettos. So just dumping in more money will solve absolutely nothing.

As far as education and jobs goes, France is an extremely meritocratic society. You have to go to the right school and have an excellent academic merits if you want to have a good job. To get into the right schools, you have to have top grades, nothing more, nothing less. There's no money involved. A kid from the best district and a kid from the worst district are judged by the same criteria, and wealth or where you are from makes no difference. The French are very, very serious about the égalité in the system.

What is needed however is kids that care and parents that care. It requires effort and most of all ambition. If you want to go to a Grand École, you have to work for it from an early age and this is where the kids and parents from these "bad" districts fail. So is it really reasonable to blame the government or the people who actually have an ambition to get the best education possible for their children? While I'm sure there is a degree of real discrimination in play here, wouldn't one say that the other side is to a degree responsible for their situation? Integration is a two-sided process.

2) These riots are very French and the response to them has also been very French. For those not familiar with the region, overthrowing the republic is a national past-time in France. It isn't seen as bad as it would have been in other places. There's a lot more sympathy for revolutions than you will find elsewhere. I mean when they are not overthrowing the government to create the N:th Republic, the French are striking over one cause or another. No, but seriously, the mindset is quite different and hence the response to the riots has been much softer. That's why they've been at it for almost two weeks now and a single rioter is yet to be shot or in any way seriously injured by the police. And the rioters have been very moderate in their violence which has been completely focused on torching stuff and not on hurting other people.

[Supah 0]

their problem is not poverty but lack of respect

Have you ever been pulled over in your car for no particular reason, asked alot of quite irrelevant questions, been lead out of your car, stripsearched and then forced to wait for two hours whilst the cops check your criminal background out? Many friendly, law-abiding people in suburbs like these get this kind of treatment from authorities everyday. I'm not saying that it justifies torching cars or throwing rocks at cops. But it's not a one-sided lack of respect that triggers this kind of behaviour, and thats a fact.

And you ofcourse experienced this first hand and didn't just hear some trumped up story by long toeed youth's who'd call the slightest fart in their direction by a police officer discrimination? If you act in a suspicious manner the cops will get suspicious. If you drive around aimlessly in a poor neighbourhood with 4 people in your car the cops are going to think youre a bunch of burglars and youre going to get pulled over and searched. That's not discrimination, that's cops making sure your crap is safe from theft. If you hang around on street corners in large groups all night the cops are going to get suspicious agian, you guessed it, you acted suspicious. They are just checking if your not streetcriminals trying to rob people or vandalise public property. If you life in a POS neighbourhood with high crime rates expect the police to be more active. In the end their trying to make things better for you too.

[whisper 0]

their problem is not poverty but lack of respect

Have you ever been pulled over in your car for no particular reason, asked alot of quite irrelevant questions, been lead out of your car, stripsearched and then forced to wait for two hours whilst the cops check your criminal background out? Many friendly, law-abiding people in suburbs like these get this kind of treatment from authorities everyday. I'm not saying that it justifies torching cars or throwing rocks at cops. But it's not a one-sided lack of respect that triggers this kind of behaviour, and thats a fact.

And you ofcourse experienced this first hand and didn't just hear some trumped up story by long toeed youth's who'd call the slightest fart in their direction by a police officer discrimination? If you act in a suspicious manner the cops will get suspicious. If you drive around aimlessly in a poor neighbourhood with 4 people in your car the cops are going to think youre a bunch of burglars and youre going to get pulled over and searched. That's not discrimination, that's cops making sure your crap is safe from theft. If you hang around on street corners in large groups all night the cops are going to get suspicious agian, you guessed it, you acted suspicious. They are just checking if your not streetcriminals trying to rob people or vandalise public property. If you life in a POS neighbourhood with high crime rates expect the police to be more active. In the end their trying to make things better for you too.

I'm white. I've never been treated this way.

OTOH, I witnessed it, and in more than 1 occasion.

Last one 2 days ago, in Paris center, a black guy looking far wealthier than me, really nothing "suspicious" or dangerous.... treated like shit while going to work. Amazing sight.

It's not a black or white situation.

Each side is faulty, tbh. But put all the blame on minorities in the suburbs is wrong.

Same as saying what they do is understable or normal is wrong.

Denoir :

Quote[/b] ]As far as education and jobs goes, France is an extremely meritocratic society. You have to go to the right school and have an excellent academic merits if you want to have a good job. To get into the right schools, you have to have top grades, nothing more, nothing less. There's no money involved. A kid from the best district and a kid from the worst district are judged by the same criteria, and wealth or where you are from makes no difference. The French are very, very serious about the égalité in the system.

Unfotunately it's wrong.

That's the image France would like to have of itself and in the eyes of foreign people.

It's not really what's happenning.

You will see everything, from the kind (let's say normal) companies who don't care to the ones who will dump your CV as soon as they'll see "Mohammed" written as first name.

And the enforcement of equality is not that strong.

And it's only company recrutement policy, not talking about everyday interaction with people, merchants, etc...

I don't mean it's a miserable life, but the oh so nice image of perfect integration in France is a lie, plain and simple.

[GoOB 0]

their problem is not poverty but lack of respect

Have you ever been pulled over in your car for no particular reason, asked alot of quite irrelevant questions, been lead out of your car, stripsearched and then forced to wait for two hours whilst the cops check your criminal background out? Many friendly, law-abiding people in suburbs like these get this kind of treatment from authorities everyday. I'm not saying that it justifies torching cars or throwing rocks at cops. But it's not a one-sided lack of respect that triggers this kind of behaviour, and thats a fact.

And you ofcourse experienced this first hand and didn't just hear some trumped up story by long toeed youth's who'd call the slightest fart in their direction by a police officer discrimination? If you act in a suspicious manner the cops will get suspicious. If you drive around aimlessly in a poor neighbourhood with 4 people in your car the cops are going to think youre a bunch of burglars and youre going to get pulled over and searched. That's not discrimination, that's cops making sure your crap is safe from theft. If you hang around on street corners in large groups all night the cops are going to get suspicious agian, you guessed it, you acted suspicious. They are just checking if your not streetcriminals trying to rob people or vandalise public property. If you life in a POS neighbourhood with high crime rates expect the police to be more active. In the end their trying to make things better for you too.

Yes, well I wasn't driving the car my friend (who is of Albanian origin) however did, and he's been pulled over several times for no other reason than that he drives a new BMW, once three times in the same day. I wouldn't call driving your friend home from school and picking up groceries for mom suspicious behaviour, would you?

And yes, the fact that the cops are on the street preventing crime is a good thing. But there are many cases of people getting harassed needlessly, and even if you act "suspicious" you have the right to go about your business without the cops asking you questions that are of no relevance. Like "So, where is your father from?", "Oh, are you going to the Mosque?", "Hey, nice car. Where did you buy that?" It doesn't justify torching cars (as I said) but the way certain policemen, and often society in general treats people with a foreign background, or a skincolour other than white is quite sick in my opinion. And it is understandable that the minorities in the French suburbs are raising their voices, but doing it in this way is not right, nor is it in any way justifiable.

[denoir 0]

Denoir :

Quote[/b] ]As far as education and jobs goes, France is an extremely meritocratic society. You have to go to the right school and have an excellent academic merits if you want to have a good job. To get into the right schools, you have to have top grades, nothing more, nothing less. There's no money involved. A kid from the best district and a kid from the worst district are judged by the same criteria, and wealth or where you are from makes no difference. The French are very, very serious about the égalité in the system.

Unfotunately it's wrong.

That's the image France would like to have of itself and in the eyes of foreign people.

It's not really what's happenning.

You will see everything, from the kind (let's say normal) companies who don't care to the ones who will dump your CV as soon as they'll see "Mohammed" written as first name.

And the enforcement of equality is not that strong.

And it's only company recrutement policy, not talking about everyday interaction with people, merchants, etc...

I don't mean it's a miserable life, but the oh so nice image of perfect integration in France is a lie, plain and simple.

Absolutely, just like anywhere else in Europe. But what I was talking about was the system, not the mindset of the natives.

What I'm saying is that as far as the state goes a Mohammed has the same rights as a Pierre and the same opportunities as far as education goes. It's not more difficult to get a good education if you have an Arabic name than a French one. Bottom line, what I meant was the things that can be affected and improved by the state. I'm just saying that yet another "urban renewal" program won't do anything. Just dumping money into these suburbs gives absolutely nothing - the problem is on a different level.

The long-term solution that the French government is now suggesting is rubbish as it has been tried numerous times before and it's quite clear it's not a question of money but culture - on both sides.

[denoir 0]

This is very interesting:

EU offers help to France. Now the initial offer of €50M is just a token, but the second one of €1bn is the real thing.

Why is this very interesting? Well, say hello to federalism. The Union traditionally stays out of social security or similar domestic affairs. It's not considered to be within the scope of the Union and is one of the major things that makes the EU a confederation rather than federation. So this could have some very interesting consequences...

[whisper 0]

Now we need to swallow our pride

Which can't happen cause we're french

[Bordoy 0]

Now we need to swallow our pride

Which can't happen cause we're french  

Because you had none to start with

[SPQR 0]

Just hope you don't impoverish the european new comer countries in order to save your rebate...

[Bordoy 0]

Just hope you don't impoverish the european new comer countries in order to save your rebate...    

Dam, good comeback

*goes off to get an excuse*

[der bastler 0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4527840.stm

Quote[/b] ]The European Parliament has approved rules forcing telephone companies to retain call and internet records for use in anti-terror investigations.

Records will be kept for up to two years under the new measures.

Police will have access to information about calls, text messages and internet data, but not exact call content.

The UK, which pressed European member states to back the rules, said that data was the "golden thread" in terrorist investigations.

The parliament voted by 378 to 197 to approve the bill, which had already been agreed by the assembly's two largest groups, the European People's Party and the Socialists.

Goodby presumption of innocence...

Time to offer resistance?

[denoir 0]

Well, I suppose it's better than the unlimited time proposal that was made by the UK and supported by the Commission. But yes, it is a bit disappointing - I was expecting the EP to vote down the proposal as they have fiercly resisted all proposed so-called "anti-terror" in the past.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the ongoing budget discussions..hmm

[Bordoy 0]

Blair: Stop being a cunt and offering out rebate up tit face.

[denoir 0]

Your rebate and the CAP exemplifies what's wrong with the EU today. You know, the Union is supposed to be about more than British and French self-interests.

There is no justification for the rebate - it was introduced as a sort of aid when you were poor in the 80's. Today, to a large degree thanks to the common market, you are doing far better and there is no justification for keeping it. Your only argument is that you should be paying as much (little) per capita as France. You are however conveniently forgetting that you are paying far less than Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Austria etc Even without the rebate you would not top the list of net-payers.

So it's just selfish bullshit. As is France's insistence on agricultural subsidies. One can have a bit of more sympathy for them though as a removal of the CAP would require serious changes to the role of the agricultural sector in France. It's more than just about money - it's about the people who work in that sector. Nevertheless, the CAP has to go sooner or later as well.

So we managed to get a budget this time, but the process is flawed. As long as the governments of the member states have veto rights, the results will be crap. Had the budget been proposed by the EP or Commission, then the British (and French, Polish etc) defence of their national interests would have been fully justified. Today however, the national governments are expected to look at EU needs when determining the budget, and there is an immense conflict of interest there. The only thing preventing them from only insisting on their national interests is that they know we'd all be fucked if the Union didn't get its operating budget. That is certainly not a sensible way to work.

The budget process needs to be decoupled form the self-serving interests of the member state governments. The budget is supposed to be beneficial to all of EU, not just the member states that can blackmail the rest to get what's good for their state at the expense of the rest of the Union. Had the national governments been detached from the process, there would have been no CAP today.

[der bastler 0]

Well, I suppose it's better than the unlimited time proposal that was made by the UK and supported by the Commission. But yes, it is a bit disappointing - I was expecting the EP to vote down the proposal as they have fiercly resisted all proposed so-called "anti-terror" in the past.

In case of civil rights one must not accept compromises. Period.

Anyway, it is sad that this topic was not discussed in public -- I only read about it on heise. Newspapers? Nothing found. Colleagues were surprised to hear about such things during morning coffee chat...

[denoir 0]

It's hardly a weakening of civil rights. They still need a warrant to look at the records.

This is just a law saying that the phone companies must not destroy the records for two years. It's a regulation that aims to bring some consistency. Today some companies keep the records, others don't. Ultimately, it has very little to do with civil rights or even privacy rights as the only way the police are allowed to look at them is if they have a court order.

[turms 0]

It's hardly a weakening of civil rights. They still need a warrant to look at the records.

This is just a law saying that the phone companies must not destroy the records for two years. It's a regulation that aims to bring some consistency. Today some companies keep the records, others don't. Ultimately, it has very little to do with civil rights or even privacy rights as the only way the police are allowed to look at them is if they have a court order.

On the top of my head, i remember the time was half years...

[EiZei 0]

It's hardly a weakening of civil rights. They still need a warrant to look at the records.

This is just a law saying that the phone companies must not destroy the records for two years. It's a regulation that aims to bring some consistency. Today some companies keep the records, others don't. Ultimately, it has very little to do with civil rights or even privacy rights as the only way the police are allowed to look at them is if they have a court order.

On the top of my head, i remember the time was half years...

Actually it's two years but the member states can implement less if they like.

If im not mistaken keeping this sort of information would have landed the operator in deep trouble up here but now they will have to do the same thing if they don't want to get in trouble, oh well..

[der bastler 0]

It's hardly a weakening of civil rights. They still need a warrant to look at the records.

And your point is...?

Nice little crawlers can examine the records and mark "suspicious" networks of people phoning/emailing/smsing each other...

They want to store some data just in case you might commit a crime in future times. I'd call them gravediggers of a constitutional state!

And such data mining systems never ever make errors, that's a known fact!!1...

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5984673.html

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/tsa_watch_list.html

Europe, where are you heading?