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Nope, as far as I'm concerned, all display of religious symbols (of all religions) should be banned from the public domain... If you feel the need to believe in fairy tales, that's fine by me, but do it at home. And don't expect me to muster any extra respect for your irrational beliefs.

You're breaking your own rule with your avator now tounge2.gif

Anyway, on-topic again. Would it be a good cause to give a foreigner a job because he's a foreigner? I know that some employers won't give a job to someone from foreign decent because he's non-western. But wouldn't it be some kind of "double racist" than to say that when you're original dutch you have less chance of getting a job?

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Well, i dont see it as any different to helping to ensure employers promote women, or employ the disabled. They have to encourage it as some employers dont see them as useful as they will go off and have a baby in 6 months time, or have to have speacial facilities to be put in for them. In a foreigners case they may not be seen as reliable, or might not speak the native language quite as well as a native, employers might be worried they will return to their country soon, etc.

I guess this falls under Affirmative Action.

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Nope, as far as I'm concerned, all display of religious symbols (of all religions) should be banned from the public domain... If you feel the need to believe in fairy tales, that's fine by me, but do it at home. And don't expect me to muster any extra respect for your irrational beliefs.

You're breaking your own rule with your avator now tounge2.gif

Anyway, on-topic again. Would it be a good cause to give a foreigner a job because he's a foreigner? I know that some employers won't give a job to someone from foreign decent because he's non-western. But wouldn't it be some kind of "double racist" than to say that when you're original dutch you have less chance of getting a job?

It's not a cross, it's a plus symbol! Honest! wink_o.gif

The issue we're discussing is not a straight-forward one. What the PAN party effectively suggests is affirmative action, or positive discrimination as it is called in the Netherlands. In principle, I am against such policies. They do not promote equality, but simply turn the tables around. Two wrongs don't make a right... Additionally, they make it almost impossible for the group in question (in this case, the foreigners) to get rid of the victim-stigmata. In the case of affirmative action, the foreigners will still be looked upon as different, priviledged or what not. It will be difficult for them to receive recognition for their achievements - does the argument "he/she only got that promotion because he/she is a foreigner/black/a woman" sound familiar?

There's a flipside to this coin.

First of all, if you've spent months trying to get a job but were turned down every time because your first name is Mustafa, I doubt you'll care about receiving recognition. You just want a job, you just want to be able to support yourself and/or your family.

Second, job discrimination against foreigners IS a big problem. Not only in the Netherlands, but also in other European countries. It is a potentially dangerous problem, because it leads to frustration, and frustration can turn into unrest. The problem needs to be tackled.

Third, we all want foreigners to integrate into our society, right? Well, the workfloor is one of the best places to achieve that. If you work with other members of the society you have a way to break the social isolation. We really need to create job opportunities for foreigners if we want them to become true members of our society.

Fourth, there may not be another solution. Ideally, companies should treat all applicants equally, and look only at their skills. The problem is, it is hard to detect racism or prejudice in this case. The company can very well say "sorry, you don't fit the job profile", while in reality they just don't feel like employing a Mahmut or Hakan. The only way to ensure the emancipation of a minority is to grant them a privileged status on the job market.

The question is: do the benefits of such emancipation outweigh the inequality that results from affirmative action? There is no panacea, there is no easy answer.

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The city of Nijmegen recently started hiring their personnel with a anonymous procedure to avoid discrimination. Although the thought is noble, I can hardly believe this guarantees a solid procedure, as you're not able to see and speak to your potential employees in a direct way.

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Quote[/b] ]Dutch lawmaker quits in asylum row

Tuesday, May 16, 2006; Posted: 9:00 a.m. EDT (13:00 GMT)

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- Somali-born member of the Dutch parliament Ayaan Hirsi Ali said Tuesday she will resign and leave the country after the Immigration Ministry said she was improperly granted citizenship.

Hirsi Ali said she had made the decision Monday night, after Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk told her "she would strip me of my Dutch citizenship."

"I am therefore preparing to leave Holland," Hirsi Ali told reporters in the Hague.

Hirsi Ali falsified her name and date of birth on her asylum application when she arrived in 1992, fearing reprisals from her family after she fled an arranged marriage.

She was granted a passport in 1997 and acknowledged the falsification in 2002 during vetting as a candidate for parliament. There were no objections then.

But after a television program re-aired the matter last week, Verdonk ruled her naturalization had been improperly granted.

Dutch vice-prime minister Gerrit Zalm, who was the leader of Hirsi Ali's VVD party in 2002, spoke at the same news conference and said he was "amazed at the speed" with which Verdonk's decision was made.

"If she reapplies for citizenship, I trust her application will be handled with the same urgency," he said.

Hirsi Ali became internationally known after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh in November 2004.

She wrote the script for Van Gogh's film "Submission," which criticized the treatment of women under fundamentalist Islam, and offended many Muslims.

Van Gogh's murderer left a note threatening Hirsi Ali impaled on the corpse with a knife and she has been under continuous police protection since then.

The Dutch state had been scrambling to arrange new housing for her after her neighbors in The Hague complained successfully last month that security arrangements for her had become an unbearable nuisance for them.

"It is difficult to live with so many threats on your life and such a level of police protection," Hirsi Ali said. "It is difficult to work as a parliamentarian if you have nowhere to live. All that is difficult but not impossible. It has become impossible since last night."

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Rather than making a big scene and leaving, why doesn't she just reapply?

I think most immigration laws have provisions that pretty much keelhaul you for giving out wrong information in your applications.

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Ironsight, what is the source of that news item? It seems to be in contrast to everything in the news today about the matter...

They (both media and Hirsi Ali) clearly state over and over that she made the decision to leave the Parliament and work over in the US after she lost the legal matter concerning her residence (her neighbours complained about their security). After that Verdonk just acted as the stubborn ignorant robot she is and threatened to take away her citizenship as election stunt. This was because of lies Ayaan made during her asylum application, something which was known for several years now but only refound its way into the news because of some tv documentary.

This is all just another example of the political-correct populistic wave that has hit the country since the rising of Fortuyn, and should be considered as nothing more than election nonsense...

edit: In her last pressconference yesterday, she does claim to quite as member of parliament because of Verdonks statement, although she allready got the job in the US, this is even more fishy...

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Ironsight, what is the source of that news item? It seems to be in contrast to everything in the news today about the matter...

CNN.com. That's the way the foreign media looks at the issue.

Quote[/b] ]This is all just another example of the political-correct populistic wave that has hit the country since the rising of Fortuyn, and should be considered as nothing more than election nonsense...

Couldn't agree more. Still I am glad she goes. She offended a whole lot of people and cost the Dutch state a lot of money.

EDIT:

What I am wondering though is if they can kick Hirshi-Ali out of the government that easy, why didn't they do the same with Sam Pormes:

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/article41603641.ece

The guy has connections with terrorists for god sake crazy_o.gif

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Yeah, but he lied during his application for his political party, which isn't very nice, but not illegal. So Groenlinks could only fire him, but he was an elected member so could proceed by himself if he wanted.

Lying during your asylum application is another thing. Verdonk not only threatened to cancel her citizenship, but undo it. This would mean she never was dutch to start with, which couldn't make her a parliament member. This means the parliament has been working with 149 instead of 150 members for quite some time now, which is against the constitution...

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They (both media and Hirsi Ali) clearly state over and over that she made the decision to leave the Parliament and work over in the US after she lost the legal matter concerning her residence (her neighbours complained about their security). After that Verdonk just acted as the stubborn ignorant robot she is and threatened to take away her citizenship as election stunt. This was because of lies Ayaan made during her asylum application, something which was known for several years now but only refound its way into the news because of some tv documentary.

This is all just another example of the political-correct populistic wave that has hit the country since the rising of Fortuyn, and should be considered as nothing more than election nonsense...

I have to disagree. Though there is very little love lost between Verdonk and me, her course of action was nothing else but consistent. The rules are clear: if you lie about your name and age during your citizenship application, the citizenship has been granted to a non-existent person. This means that you have never been Dutch to begin with; there is no need to revoke your citizenship. This isn't some election stunt, but acting according to the jurisprudence. It was clear from the beginning that declaring Hirshi Ali's Dutch citizenship as void would be met with fierce resistance both from the parliament and the population. If Verdonk was after electoral gain, she would have left Hirshi Ali alone. But she didn't.

She had very little choice. Numerous people have lost their citizenship for lesser reasons in the past. An example: an Iranian asylumseeker was granted asylum in 1994, and the Dutch nationality in 1998. Later on, his birth certificate was translated and according to the translation his first name wasn't Reza, but Alireza. Additionally, he appeared to be a year older than was stated in his application, because a civil servant made a mistake when converting the Iranian calendar to ours. This was enough for the Immigration and Naturalisation Service (IND) to define this as fraud and declare the man's nationality as void. Naturally, the man appealed to the High Council, but the Council declared that the IND was right.

In light of all this, how could Verdonk treat Hirshi Ali differently? Just because she's a member of parliament and a popular politician, we should disregard the ruling of the highest judicial authority in the country and just let her be? Of course not. I dislike Verdonk, but her decision was the right one and I commend her for that. I am also disgusted at the reaction of the parliament. If anyone is guilty of an electoral stunt, it's the entire Second Chamber, especially the VVD. They knowingly embraced Hirshi Ali, put her on the election list and turn a blind eye to the fact that she had lied. The entire party has done nothing but applaud Verdonk's policies, but now that these same policies are applied to one of their own, Verdonk is suddenly seen as unjust. Can anyone spell hypocrisy?

Just for the record, I am not trying to absolve Verdonk. She knew fully well about Hirshi Ali's lies but chose to disregard them, seeing as Hirshi Ali was a fellow member of the VVD and shared some ideas with her. However, as the Zembla broadcast drew a lot of attention, she chose the electorally impopular, yet consistent path.

From my side of the political spectrum, all these developments seem to be positive. Hirshi Ali, whom I deem to be little more than a counter-productive provocateur, leaves the country. Verdonk, the right-wing populist is damaged and less likely to win the internal VVD election. Nevertheless, I feel disappointed. Regardless of my opinions on her, a politician has made the right, but impopular decision, and she is being punished for it.

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I'm not making any judgement on whether Verdonk made the right choice or not, I just dislike the manner in which she choose to do so. I think we have the same perspective on this matter Xawery, as I am no fan of Hirsi Ali or Verdonk, or the VVD in general.

I'm no legal expert so I'm not sure what is allowed or not in such cases, but it's the boombastic populistic sound in which she brought this to the public I highly dislike, acting on a TV show bringing 'old news'. I do not think she fully realised how unpopular this decision would become, she just thought she acted in her "rules are rules" philosophy. She was merely doing her 'bitchy pose' in which she hopes to win the VVD candidacy.

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I agree wholeheartedly about the "bombastic populist sound", but that's nothing new. She has always communicated in that way, regardless of the whole Hirshi Ali issue: during the whole Schiphol fire affair, the transfer of information about asylum seekers to the authorities in the home country etc. I find her way of speaking absolutely horrendous, especially the way she interrupts her sentences with a "Ja?", whenever she is questioned by professional journalists (like in NOVA). It gives the impression that she sees the audience as complete imbeciles and needs to check every now and then that they are capable of following her train of thought. HIGHLY annoying.

Now for something completely different. We keep hearing about big bad muslims who are outraged about the most trivial things like cartoons and threaten the freedom of speech. Well, our dear countrymen are quite capable of the same nonsense. Religious idiots in Goeree Overfakkee, an island in Zeeland, have threatened Abel den Denker, a columnist whose writing has been published in a local paper, Regio Venster. In his columns, den Denker (a pseudonym) has mocked the the fusion of the local churches which has resulted in the Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN). He has also made fun of the whole prayerday in Goes, which was the reason for spreading the local elections over two seperate days. The paper has received several threats from a group called the Truthsayers (Waarheidszeggers). In these threats, the group offers Den Denker three options: leaving the island with his family; revealing his identity in the paper and apologising to the religious community; giving a substantial donation to the local churches. When the head editor went to the police station to make a statement about the threats, the police officers on duty told her they would kill Den Denker if they found out who he was.

What is the meaning of this story? Religion = Idiocy, more often than not.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5003220.stm

Quote[/b] ]

Montenegro 'chooses independence'

The independence camp has been celebrating in Podgorica

Montenegro has narrowly voted for independence from its union with Serbia, unofficial projections show.

Indications are that 55.3% of voters elected to secede from Serbia, just above the 55% required for victory.

Prime Minister Milo Djukanovic claimed early on Monday that his drive for independence had been successful.

But official results are not expected for several hours. If confirmed, the independence vote would erase the last vestige of the former Yugoslavia.

So how many countries are they going to form out of the ruins of Yugoslavia, think I lost count already. tounge2.gif

Now if we could get Ĺland to secede.. yay.gif

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Now for something completely different. We keep hearing about big bad muslims who are outraged about the most trivial things like cartoons and threaten the freedom of speech. Well, our dear countrymen are quite capable of the same nonsense. Religious idiots in Goeree Overfakkee, an island in Zeeland, have threatened Abel den Denker, a columnist whose writing has been published in a local paper, Regio Venster. In his columns, den Denker (a pseudonym) has mocked the the fusion of the local churches which has resulted in the Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN). He has also made fun of the whole prayerday in Goes, which was the reason for spreading the local elections over two seperate days. The paper has received several threats  from a group called the Truthsayers (Waarheidszeggers). In these threats, the group offers Den Denker three options: leaving the island with his family; revealing his identity in the paper and apologising to the religious community; giving a substantial donation to the local churches. When the head editor went to the police station to make a statement about the threats, the police officers on duty told her they would kill Den Denker if they found out who he was.

What is the meaning of this story? Religion = Idiocy, more often than not.

I heard the story, it's ridiculous! And everyone they interview on that bloody island seems to agree he has to apologize and/or leave the place. The arguments why his column is so outrageous are also very stupid. One man said he was insulted because the guy wrote his pseudonym name with a capital, as only God should be referred to with a capital... don't these guys write their own names with a capital...?

den Denker wrote about the local government, which consist of only very religious parties, cancelling the WWII memorial because it would disrupt the sundays rest... And people got really offended by that, threatening him with "feeling the same pain you made us feel".

These people need some shock therapy like this now and then, but their reaction doesn't prove any hope on regaining any sanity by the treatment... crazy_o.gif

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Now for something completely different. We keep hearing about big bad muslims who are outraged about the most trivial things like cartoons and threaten the freedom of speech. Well, our dear countrymen are quite capable of the same nonsense. Religious idiots in Goeree Overfakkee, an island in Zeeland, have threatened Abel den Denker, a columnist whose writing has been published in a local paper, Regio Venster. In his columns, den Denker (a pseudonym) has mocked the the fusion of the local churches which has resulted in the Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN). He has also made fun of the whole prayerday in Goes, which was the reason for spreading the local elections over two seperate days. The paper has received several threats  from a group called the Truthsayers (Waarheidszeggers). In these threats, the group offers Den Denker three options: leaving the island with his family; revealing his identity in the paper and apologising to the religious community; giving a substantial donation to the local churches. When the head editor went to the police station to make a statement about the threats, the police officers on duty told her they would kill Den Denker if they found out who he was.

What is the meaning of this story? Religion = Idiocy, more often than not.

I heard the story, it's ridiculous! And everyone they interview on that bloody island seems to agree he has to apologize and/or leave the place. The arguments why his column is so outrageous are also very stupid. One man said he was insulted because the guy wrote his pseudonym name with a capital, as only God should be referred to with a capital... don't these guys write their own names with a capital...?

den Denker wrote about the local government, which consist of only very religious parties, cancelling the WWII memorial because it would disrupt the sundays rest... And people got really offended by that, threatening him with "feeling the same pain you made us feel".

These people need some shock therapy like this now and then, but their reaction doesn't prove any hope on regaining any sanity by the treatment... crazy_o.gif

Small fry, when compared to the professionals.

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hmm so if i understand this correct, the boy was calling to the cocoroach in every ethnic language and it said nothing , until he called it in the azeri language and to this it answered what ?( as if to say they are somehow on same level;). it is quite an insult i guess. i wouldnt like to be the editor sad_o.gif. maybe i inerpreted it wrong ,who knows.

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Small fry, when compared to the professionals.

I'm sorry, I don't see how you can compare the two. The Azeri's were rioting because the official, state-run Iranian paper compared their whole ethnic group to vermin. That's something different than being insulted because some columnist wrote his pseudonym with a capital. Avon, we all know you are hell-bent on portraying Arabs as irrational, thin-skinned, riot-thirsty clouts, but this 'example' does not hold up. Actually, I was rather surprised to see that some of the readers' comments were quite sensible, like this one:

Quote[/b] ]I can have some sympathy here, I mean would you be happy to have it insinuated that your entire ethnic group was vermin? And it's not like we're immune, I bet if an LA paper published something like this where the cockroach spoke spanish it would make Rodney King look like a day on the beach.

The Goeree Overfakkee incident is completely different. These people are living in a free, democratic country, where their religious freedoms are protected by the constitution. They are not a minority, they are not being discriminated against. There is no civil unrest boiling under the surface. No, they're just religious kooks (though that may be a pleonasm). Nothing new about that, but it just goes to show how eager we are to label others as religious fanatics while the same idiots are living in our midst.

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Xawery, you do know that Iran is not an Arab country... Right?

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Xawery, you do know that Iran is not an Arab country... Right?

Nemesis6, when has xavery said that Iran is an arabic country?

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I give Xawery the benefit of the doubt and assume that he didn't call The Avon Lady "hell-bent on portraying Arabs as irrational, thin-skinned, riot-thirsty clouts" just for pointing to the Azeri issue in Iran, so by the process of elimination, I assume he is indeed refering to Iran when he claims that The Avon Lady is "hell-bent on portraying Arabs as irrational, thin-skinned, riot-thirsty clouts", since The Avon Lady mentioned Iran.

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I wasn't referring to this particular post by Avon, but rather to her whole 'oeuvre' (I wonder what Foucault would have said about this sentence;) ). But for the sake of the argument, let me rephrase that: Avon Lady seems hell-bent on portraying Arabs and other Islamic people possibly 'hostile' towards Israel as irrational, thin-skinned, riot-thirsty clouts.

Wait, hang on, there are some Christians in Iran, does that invalidate my point in your eyes? Please refrain from such ad hominem attacks Nemesis6, especially if the point of my statement is clear. You don't see me shifting the attention to your poor syntax, do you?

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I'll admit I slaughtered my previous post through the dozens of edits I made to it. My syntax, however, is just fine, at least from my point of view.

Quote[/b] ]Avon Lady seems hell-bent on portraying Arabs and other Islamic people possibly 'hostile' towards Israel as irrational, thin-skinned, riot-thirsty clouts.

They often are, as their primary motivation for criticizing Israel stems from deep Muslim anti-Semitism that is passed on to nearly every single child in the Arab and Muslim world.

The number of Muslims who criticize Israel for legitimate reasons is so slim that they're a minority.

By the way, how did you come to the conclusion that The Avon Lady was a spiteful, racist monster, anyway?

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Hmm European Politics thread?

Perhaps we should be discussing Prescots Future in the UK Labour Party.

Or More importantly the signs from the Blair Bush meeting that Blair has told Bush he is to resign soon. This is surely more important to the European Politics thread.

Israel and the other semitic Arab countries have a Middle East thread just for them. So all this should realy go there.

Anyway how can an Arab be anti semitic since the Arab people are semitic too. Check up in you dictionary

Do you realy mean anti jewish or anti Israel as the two are different.

Being anti Jewish is the same as being Anti Muslim and is essentialy undefendable and essentialy racist in the same way as being Anti Arab or Anti Black.

Being Anti Israel is almost OK at least in the same way one can be anti Iran or Anti Saudi Arabia or anti UK.

Any country can be critisized on its policy to others.

However grouping together a people on the basis of their religion, country or region and dismissing their views on such a basis is inherently racist.

So if I were to say

"The number of Jews who criticize the Arab States for legitimate reasons is so slim that they're a minority."

That would be Racist.

Thus we can use Nemesis6 argument

They often are, as their primary motivation for criticizing Insert Country stems from deep insert oposing religion anti-insert religion that is passed on to nearly every single child in the -insert raceand insert religion world.

The number of insert religionwho criticize Insert Country for legitimate reasons is so slim that they're a minority.

Perhaps people should first put their own religion, beliefs, race and country into a statement to test whether it is racist?

Kind Regards Walker

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I think we just made another step forward here, Walker. Once again, you have, indirectly, responded to a post of mine even though you previously declared that you would not do so in the future.

Ahmadinejad to Europe: Support Iranian Nukes or "Suffer the Consequences

http://www.jpost.com/servlet....howFull

Quote[/b] ]Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned Europe that it should support his country’s nuclear program or “suffer the consequences.â€

In an interview to be published in the German Der Spiegel on Sunday, Ahmadinejad also expressed his doubt regarding the Holocaust, saying that even if it had occurred, the Jewish state should have been established in Europe, not in Palestine.

“I only accept something as the truth if I am truly convinced of it,†he asserted.

The Iranian president, who previously stated his intention to travel to Germany for the World Cup games that will take place there this summer, said that he had not yet decided on the matter. Iran is one of the 32 nations participating in the world-wide sporting event.

“My decision depends on a lot of different things,†Ahmadinejad said.

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