European Politics Thread.

[Supah 0]

Its not "might" or "some" a large majority does commit crime. It's easy to talk away this behaviour as "those raskal drug addicts". Wait till you are a victim. Another part needs help to overcome alcohol addiction or mental problems. Anyone who has studied alcoholisme in detail knows that almost all alcoholics will deny having a problem. The same with people with mental illnesses, their not mad, the rest of humanity is. Anyway, this is dragging this topic offtopic I believe.

[Ares1978 0]

Its not "might" or "some" a large majority does commit crime. It's easy to talk away this behaviour as "those raskal drug addicts". Wait till you are a victim.

Even if it were the majority, it's still might and some. They should be arrested for the crimes they do commit, not just for being in a state that might drive them to commit crimes. If you're so afraid, get a gun.

[Ironsight 1]

Not sure to put this in the European Politics or War on Terror topic.

From BBC.com

Quote[/b] ]Dutch police make terror arrests

Six men and a woman were detained in raids in The Hague, Amsterdam and nearby Almere, the national prosecutor's office said.

They include one man recently acquitted of planning terror attacks.

Police did not comment on reports of gunshots in The Hague during Friday's arrest operation.

Riot police moved in to strengthen security at the Binnenhof castle in the city where Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende and others have offices.

The BBC's Geraldine Coughlan reports that the arrests come a day after renewed threats against two members of parliament, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders.

Both are outspoken critics of radical Islam.

Rearrested

Among those held on Friday was Samir Azzouz, a Dutch teenager of Moroccan origin who had been acquitted in April of plotting attacks on Amsterdam airport, government buildings and a nuclear reactor.

"He is suspected of preparing attacks, together with other persons, on several politicians and government buildings," the prosecutor's office said on Friday.

No details of the other six suspects, said to be aged between 18 and 30, were immediately given.

The Netherlands has been on a terror alert since the London bombings in July.

Police were injured by a hand grenade in The Hague last year when they arrested two terror suspects following the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh.

BTW: Samir Azzouz was not the only one who got rearrested Jermaine W. got rearrested too. The last on has been accused of being a member of the "Hofstad Group" a Dutch muslim terrorism organisation who also slaughtered Theo van Gogh.

From CNN.com

Quote[/b] ]7 held in Dutch anti-terror raids

Friday, October 14, 2005; Posted: 7:42 a.m. EDT (11:42 GMT)

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- Dutch authorities detained seven suspects in a national anti-terrorism operation Friday, officials said.

The chief suspect in the raids in three cities was Samir Azzouz, a 19-year-old Dutch national of Moroccan descent who was acquitted of terrorism charges earlier this year.

Azzouz was allegedly in the process of purchasing automatic weapons and explosives, "probably to carry out an attack with others on several politicians and a government building," a prosecution statement said.

Can't believe they haven't nailed Azzouz earlier. Does there actually need to happen an attack before someone goes to jail.........

[GoOB 0]

Come on goOB, I don't know what romantic perspective you've been led on but most homeless people here are either:

1. Junkies

2. Alcoholics

3. Mental Patients

Yes, but that still doesn't change the fact that in one of your posts you simply wrote them off as a nuisance, and being bad for business. They may be to some people, but why the ones that do not commit crimes should be arrested and forced into rehab is beyond me. Some actually CHOOSE being homeless, for other reasons than those mentioned, but yeah. Most of them qualify under one or more of those categories you listed. And I'm sorry if my post made it seem like I didn't beleive that.

But the fact that they may be junkies or whatever doesn't change their value as individuals. And that they shouldn't be considered a nuisance, since they are a product of the society they live in. They aren't socially outcast because they are alcoholics or drug addicts, they are drug addicts and alcoholics since they were socially outcast before they became what they are now. So IMO some form of preventive measures should be applied. Instead of forced rehab and therapy.

And I don't have friends who have worked with homeless people, Iv'e done it myself (soup kitchens, "blanket detail" etc.). And it might have given me a "romantic perspective" but I admire many of the people that are homeless that I have spoken to. Since many of them really struggle to try to keep clean, whilst being pushed out of dirty subway stations into a -18 degree night. And that without a minimal ammount of help from any form of authority. They stay alive, in spite of not really having anything to live for.

[denoir 0]

Although I disagree that they should be preemptively locked up, supah does have a point. To become homeless in Europe (most of it anyway), you must really really fuck up. Just "bad luck" isn't enough as the social grid covers that. Those that slip through that grid have to put in an effort. So you won't find many homeless people that are not drug addicts or hopeless alcoholics that have been given help, but refused it in one way or another.

One notable exception, at least here in Sweden are the mental cases. Unfortunately they can fall off the grid, thanks to a very messed up line of thinking on the part of the government. Since the 70's the policy (based on ideology rather than medical reasoning) has been to try to integrate moderately mentally ill people into society. The idea was that mental institutions are inhumane and that these people are better off living in society - that it would increase their chances of living normal lives. And sure in some cases it works, but in others it don't. Thanks to that very questionable ideology we have people on the streets who should really be in hospitals.

[Supah 0]

Hey I am not advocating throwing them in jail and just letting them spend the rest of their life there. I strongly believe in a redemption based prison systems and as far as vagrants go it shouldn't even be prison. A lot of mental aflictions have as a symptom that the patient has no notion of their own illness. They feel the rest of the world is out to get them, IE highly paranoid, and will not accept needed medication. You can't count on these people taking needed medication so there has to be a certain measure of force. Alcoholics and drug addicts, for the majority of them, simply do not feel they have a drinking/drug problem. Unless you force these people to face their problems and kick the habbit their going to be stuck in their ways which lead in excerably to their death face down in some gutter.

No person should have to end like that in europe. We have the financial resources to help these people and letting them go on their path of self destruction is just complacent. I have seen second hand how lack luster the level of skill is in our mental health system, any nitwit with half a brain can become a psychiatrist here. But what are your options? Just let things go as they are? Let people just end up doing drugs and becoming another one of the endless cycle of junkies that die in the gutter? Or do you take them of the streets (at that moment against their will) and actually do something to help them which they will thank you for later.

To think like goob that all these people are just helpless victims is just idiotic. In the end they chose the easy way out and went their way. They could have chosen to actually get over what ever was bothering them. I understand that might have been hard but it sure would have been morally more acceptable then to just victomise people just to get their fix. No they may not have something to live for on the streets but here that is their own choice. They could give up the lifestyle and get a mailing adress to the salvation army and get welfare, get a house, get a job (there are enough jobs if you want them) and make something of themselves. All it requires of them is to quit drugs/alcohol.

Yes them costing me money annoys me. What should I do? Shrug my shoulders and go "Oh well if this was my only bussiness I'd be in serious trouble paying a mortgage and sending my kids to school because a couple of people who chose the easy way out in life want to ruin my bussiness!" Let's have a couple of misfits ruin a bussiness that employs 8 people. Lets make 8 people jobless just because some people want to claim the right to "not fit in". In the meantime I'll gladly call the cops to drag them of to the local prison cell (local police station holding pen) where they are given a hot meal and a warm safe bed and set free the next morning. I am no devil but I dont like being screwed over.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]To become homeless in Europe (most of it anyway), you must really really fuck up.

I tend to disagree.

It only takes a few things and you´re out on the streets.

Common scenario:

Family with own house, not fully paid yet.

Wife gets divorced. Two children.

Father gets engaged in a fight about the children and visitor rights.

Lawyers cost much money.

Father is ruled by court to pay for his wife and the kids.

As the family splits the bank want the total of money for the house at once -> father can´t pay -> bank owns the house

Father gets fired because he´s unaware at work because of his family stress.

Father´s jobless.

Father has to oath that he doesn´t own any more money to avoid beeing picked to pieces by the bank.

The house is sold, the rest of the family moves to a sponsored apartement.

Father is out on the road with no possibility to get a job because he has no adress anymore. Even if he moves into a government sponsored shelter this adress on an application will keep him from getting a new job.

He´s too old for the free labour market.

He has lost his house and his family and all the money he had goes wither to lawyers or to his ex-wife.

He starts to drink and the spiral starts.

You can alter the reasons. Exchange with costly illness, a traffic accident, and so on...

It´s not that hard to slip through the social system.

Keep in mind that some people will not go to ask for help no matter in what shape they are. They just will refuse to do it as they think it would be a shame to apply for help.

Enforced therapies are dubious. Their effect is debated. Numbers indicate that long-time studies show that people who were forced into therapies of any kind fall back into their addict sooner or later. It´s also interesting that the suicide rate among people in enforced therapies is extremely high.

So basically I´d say enforced therapy is NOT the way to assist those people. The society labels you pretty fast when you are on the streets. That´s the major problem.

[denoir 0]

Well, obviously Europe isn't homogeneous when it comes to social security. But in most cases this is where the government steps in with money - i.e social security so that the guy can rent an apartment and have money for a fairly decent quality of life.

Are you saying it's not that way in Germany? If so, then I'm very surprised given how much money you spend on social security. At least in the EU15 it is de facto standard that you don't have to have a job to live a fairly normal life. What you are describing sounds more like America.

[bn880 5]

Well, I think when you say Europe in your examples Denoir, you may have to omit most "poorer" Eastern countries like Poland, Romania etc. Social security there is anything but security. AFAIK

So what even if you don't manage to lose your home/apartment, when social security is not enough to pay rent and food.

[xawery 0]

Can't believe they haven't nailed Azzouz earlier. Does there actually need to happen an attack before someone goes to jail.........

How about lack of evidence? I'm glad we still live in a society where you need proof to arrest someone. Just because he wasn't incarcerated in the first place doesn't meen the AIVD lost all intererst in him... on the contrary. They let him go, observed him, and when he commited a crime (trying to obtain automatic weapons) they arrested him, along with a number of other suspects. Over all an effective operation, wouldn't you agree?

Denoir:

Quote[/b] ]One notable exception, at least here in Sweden are the mental cases. Unfortunately they can fall off the grid, thanks to a very messed up line of thinking on the part of the government. Since the 70's the policy (based on ideology rather than medical reasoning) has been to try to integrate moderately mentally ill people into society. The idea was that mental institutions are inhumane and that these people are better off living in society - that it would increase their chances of living normal lives. And sure in some cases it works, but in others it don't. Thanks to that very questionable ideology we have people on the streets who should really be in hospitals.

A similar policy is followed here in the Netherlands, or at least in my county. I can't say its results are as disastrous as you present them. Sure, there is a number of odd-balls roaming the streets, but they don't harras anyone and people are either sympathetic toward them or simply indifferent. It's been this way for years now and people have grown accustomed to them. They are actually a part of the urban folklore - the elderly crossdresser, the cursing lady and the grandma who insists on singing Sinterklaas songs all year long It sounds weird, but people have accepted them.

[denoir 0]

Well, I think when you say Europe in your examples Denoir, you may have to omit most "poorer" Eastern countries like Poland, Romania etc.  Social security there is anything but security.  AFAIK

So what even if you don't manage to lose your home/apartment, when social security is not enough to pay rent and food.

Absolutely, that's why I said EU15 (i.e the before-expansion EU). Of course strictly speaking that doesn't hold either. There are big variations in social security in the various member states. The Union has no powers in that area but it is all handled on a local state level.

For instance the UK has a far weaker social security system than the average. In most cases it's difficult to say which system is better, they are just different. For instance in Italy, home visits by the doctor is a right that is fully financed by the state. In Sweden we can only dream about such service, but on the other hand the sick pay here is better and so on.. So there isn't really a unified system.

Quote[/b] ]A similar policy is followed here in the Netherlands, or at least in my county. I can't say its results are as disastrous as you present them. Sure, there is a number of odd-balls roaming the streets, but they don't harras anyone and people are either sympathetic toward them or simply indifferent. It's been this way for years now and people have grown accustomed to them. They are actually a part of the urban folklore - the elderly crossdresser, the cursing lady and the grandma who insists on singing Sinterklaas songs all year long It sounds weird, but people have accepted them.

Nothing regarding the Dutch sounds weird

Anyway, we've had a few nasty cases here. Most notable Anna Lindh, our former foreign minister who was in 2003 murdered in broad daylight in central Stockholm by a mentally disturbed man. Not long after that murder, a little girl at a day-care center was stabbed to death by another insane man. And a year a go or so a mentally disturbed man went berserk on a subway platform in Stockholm and using a lead pipe seriously injured a bunch of people.

So we're not talking about the harmless singing oddball variety here. All of the people above had sought help with their mental illness, but were sent home.

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ]French riots spread beyond Paris

The violence that has wracked Paris suburbs over the past week has spread to new areas and outside the French capital for the first time.

Youths burned buildings and more than 500 vehicles in the eighth consecutive night of rioting. Nearly 80 arrests were made in Paris.

Cars were torched in the eastern city of Dijon, and sporadic unrest broke out in southern and western France.

The unrest was sparked by the deaths of two teenagers of African origin.

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has pledged to restore order following criticism of the government's failure to end violence.

Thursday night's incidents occurred in several towns to the north-east and west of the capital, including Aulnay-sous-Bois.

Most of the attacks took place in the largely immigrant area of Seine-Saint-Denis, where about 1,300 police had been deployed.

Gangs of attackers

As on previous nights, gangs of youths armed with bricks and sticks roamed the streets of housing estates. The situation had calmed down at dawn.

In the reported overnight incidents:

A 56-year-old disabled bus passenger suffers severe burns when a Molotov cocktail is thrown on board in the northern Sevran suburb

Shots are fired at riot police in various parts of Paris, slightly wounding five officers, police say

A group of officers is targeted near a synagogue in the Seine-Saint-Denis area of Stains, where a primary school is partially burned

Police say 519 vehicles were burned and 78 people held in the Paris region, in the worst night of riots so far

More than 100 firefighters fight a blaze at a carpet warehouse in Aulnay-sous-Bois; another warehouse is also set alight in Le Blanc Mesnil area

Outside Paris, as well as the cars set alight in Dijon, unrest flared in the Rouen area of Normandy and in the Bouches-du-Rhone region near Marseilles in the south.

The unrest began after teenagers Bouna Traore, aged 15, and Zyed Benna, 17, were accidentally electrocuted at an electricity sub-station in Clichy-sous-Bois.

Local people say they were fleeing police - a claim the authorities deny. Inquiries are under way.

'Troublemakers'

Amid reports of a cabinet split on the handling of the riots, Mr de Villepin has held talks with Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy and other ministers, as well as MPs and mayors from affected towns.

Mr Sarkozy had earlier sparked some criticism with hardline comments saying the government would not allow "troublemakers, a bunch of hoodlums, think they can do whatever they want".

The areas affected are poor, largely immigrant communities with high levels of unemployment.

Muslim leaders have urged politicians to show respect for immigrant communities.

Minister for Social Cohesion Jean-Louis Borloo said France had to acknowledge its failure to deal with anger simmering in poor suburbs for decades.

So when will UN peacekeepers be sent in?

[Supah 0]

I am getting the feeling the whole rioting is getting beyond the point where the french police can handle it and perhaps it is time the army was used. France has history of doing that to quell social , napoleon and those nice straight streets perfect for early artilery eh I don't think you can negotiate with these people. The boys apparently weren't being chased by the police, even if they were they pbb were for a good reason and hiding in a electricity substation is just idiotic. What do these demonstators want? Imunity from the law for their kind?

[Ironsight 1]

I am getting the feeling the whole rioting is getting beyond the point where the french police can handle it and perhaps it is time the army was used. France has history of doing that to quell social , napoleon and those nice straight streets perfect for early artilery eh I don't think you can negotiate with these people. The boys apparently weren't being chased by the police, even if they were they pbb were for a good reason and hiding in a electricity substation is just idiotic. What do these demonstators want? Imunity from the law for their kind?

Have you seen the NOS 8 o clock news? There was a "leader" of these youths saying that they want/are able to start a civil war against the French government. I only saw a part of it so I didn't got the exact details, but the idea sounds pretty idiotic to me

Don't think we should take this claim seriously but that guy pretty much made an ass of himself. They said that they had "the weapons to fight a war". It totally cracked me up

[EiZei 0]

If the worst treatment they get is couple of kids getting killed accidentally while escaping most other screwed minorities should envy these guys..

[Ironsight 1]

If the worst treatment they get is couple of kids getting killed accidentally while escaping most other screwed minorities should envy these guys..

Quote[/b] ]There was a "leader" of these youths saying that they want/are able to start a civil war against the French government. I only saw a part of it so I didn't got the exact details, but the idea sounds pretty idiotic to me.

Seems that they were just looking for a "spark" to feed their "guerilla war"

[denoir 0]

I really don't know what the French authorities are doing. I think that a show of force is long overdue. People have the right to protest, but rioting is not acceptable. At this point order should be re-established by force: torch a car, get shot.

I understand that this is a sensitive question, but you don't end riots through diplomacy. It has gone way beyond the point of a peaceful settlement. Bring in the military, impose a curfew and martial law. The rioters must be made to understand that their actions have dire consequences. Arrest if possible (and shoot if not) all violators of order. Once that is done, then negotiate with the communities in question and address their problems.

[Bordoy 0]

I heard there were muslims rioting in Arhus, Denmark for around a week furing the same time as the French ones, but not sure if it's stopped over there.

I believe the French should send the army in and sort them out. It's just anarchy over there and the French authorities are too scared to shoot someone just incase the dead person's dad from Iran (who he hasn't seen for 30 years) wants to prosecute the police.

[Supah 0]

I really don't know what the French authorities are doing. I think that a show of force is long overdue. People have the right to protest, but rioting is not acceptable. At this point order should be re-established by force: torch a car, get shot.

I understand that this is a sensitive question, but you don't end riots through diplomacy. It has gone way beyond the point of a peaceful settlement. Bring in the military, impose a curfew and martial law. The rioters must be made to understand that their actions have dire consequences. Arrest if possible (and shoot if not) all violators of order. Once that is done, then negotiate with the communities in question and address their problems.

I don't think there really is much to negotiate about. A lot has been tried to help these people fit in, in the netherlands atleast. They have been given opportunities through state sponsorship for decades that most of the original population would have to work damn hard for. In the end their poverty now is of their own making. They chose not to take part in society and try to impose their religion on everything. There is no such thing as secular Islam apparently. Look at it this way, if this was in the netherlands, if all the rioters had chosen to go to college instead of rioting the state would pbb have paid it for them. This is their chosen path. Like their "commander" said in the interview on TV, all they really want is Jihad and war with the unbelievers.

[Ironsight 1]

Another reaction from within the government but still no or little reaction on the street...

Quote[/b] ]Tough French warning for rioters

The French interior minister has warned rioters of stiff jail sentences for arson after the ninth night of violence in African and Arab communities.

Nicolas Sarkozy said setting cars on fire could "cost dear in terms of sentences" after a night which saw nearly 900 vehicles damaged.

He said the government was "unanimous about standing firm" against violence.

Meanwhile hundreds of people joined marches in Paris suburbs to protest against the violence.

In Aulnay-sous-Bois, which has seen some of the worst of the rioting, residents walked past burnt out vehicles and buildings with banners reading "No to violence" and "Yes to dialogue".

Unrest began after the deaths of two youths in a rundown suburb of Paris.

Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17, were accidentally electrocuted at an electricity sub-station in Clichy-sous-Bois after reportedly fleeing from police in an incident now being investigated.

Arson attacks

Police arrested more than 250 people on Friday night as arsonists attacked nurseries and a school and unrest spread to Nice, Lille, Marseille and Toulouse.

"The republican state cannot accept violence," Mr Sarkozy said after a meeting of government ministers called by Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin.

The interior minister's description of rioters last week as "scum" (racaille) is said by many to have aggravated the situation - which was further inflamed by reports that a police tear gas grenade had gone off near a mosque.

During Friday night's unrest rioters tended to avoid direct clashes with police, but arson attacks were widespread:

All we need is one death and things will get out of control

Jean-Christophe Lagarde

Mayor of Drancy

Alienated and angry in Clichy

* Two nurseries, one in Yvelines and another in Bretigny-sur-Orgeand, were set on fire along with a school in Seine-et-Marne, the French news agency AFP reports

* A blaze in an underground car park in Suresnes, Hauts-de-Seine, left at least 36 vehicles destroyed

* An emergency services vehicle was attacked and burnt out in Meaux, Seine-et-Marne

* Several car torchings were reported in the cities of Dijon, Marseille and Rouen, as were violent attacks in Nice, Lille and Rennes.

Hundreds of people heard a call for calm at the rally in Aulnay-sous-Bois.

The suburb's mayor, Gerard Gaudron, made the appeal to marchers outside a fire station which had come under attack.

But youths at the rally in the suburb's rundown Mitry estate predicted violence would continue until Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy resigned.

Residents of another suburb, Sevran, took to the streets to protest against incidents including Wednesday's attack on a disabled woman who was set on fire as she tried to get off a bus.

Quote[/b] ]Clichy-sous-Bois: Two teenagers die in electricity sub-station on 27 October. Successive nights of rioting follow rumours they were fleeing police. A number of people arrested or injured.

Aulnay-sous-Bois: A flashpoint after violence spread from Clichy. Shots fired at police and cars and shops set ablaze. Further trouble in eight nearby suburbs, with more shots fired at police.

Elsewhere in Paris: Reports of incidents in towns in the suburban departments of the Val-d'Oise, Seine-et-Marne and Yvelines. Reports of petrol bombs thrown at a police station in the Hauts-de-Seine.

Elsewhere in France: Rouen, Lille, Toulouse, Nice and Marseille all see violence on Friday night.

[denoir 0]

I really don't know what the French authorities are doing. I think that a show of force is long overdue. People have the right to protest, but rioting is not acceptable. At this point order should be re-established by force: torch a car, get shot.

I understand that this is a sensitive question, but you don't end riots through diplomacy. It has gone way beyond the point of a peaceful settlement. Bring in the military, impose a curfew and martial law. The rioters must be made to understand that their actions have dire consequences. Arrest if possible (and shoot if not) all violators of order. Once that is done, then negotiate with the communities in question and address their problems.

I don't think there really is much to negotiate about. A lot has been tried to help these people fit in, in the netherlands atleast. They have been given opportunities through state sponsorship for decades that most of the original population would have to work damn hard for. In the end their poverty now is of their own making. They chose not to take part in society and try to impose their religion on everything. There is no such thing as secular Islam apparently. Look at it this way, if this was in the netherlands, if all the rioters had chosen to go to college instead of rioting the state would pbb have paid it for them. This is their chosen path. Like their "commander" said in the interview on TV, all they really want is Jihad and war with the unbelievers.

I don't really see it that way. Far from a majority French Muslims are out there torching cars and schools. You can't judge whole communities by the actions of a radical minority.

Yes, Europe does have a problem with Muslim fundamentalists and I'm not advocating negotiations there. We do however also have a much wider problem of integration of people of non-European origin into the society. This leads to isolation, alienation and in some cases to radicalism. This is what we need to work on.

Like it or not but Europe has a significant Muslim minority. They have to be (as any other European citizens, immigrants or not) taken seriously. Equality before law is not enough, not when there is a broad culture of national chauvinism in Europe. Throughout history we've learned to be tolerant and to accept other Europeans, but it seems to stop there. And frankly it's a grave embarrassment to European liberalism. We take pride in how gays, women etc are not discriminated against, but if a guy's name is Mohammed well.. then that's a different story. Then nobody wants to give him a job.

Let me give you a practical example from personal experience. I have a friend, Mahan who is from Iran. He has been living in Sweden since he was five and he has a Swedish citizenship. If you wouldn't see him or see his name, you would bet money on that he's Swedish. He speaks the language perfectly and is in no way religious, much less fundamentalist.

We started studying the same year at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm. It's the best technical university in Sweden and one of the best in Europe. He had better grades than me and got his MSc a year earlier than I did. For the last three years Mahan has been unable to find a job within his profession. Every European in his class has got a good job. We have a guy here who has a master's degree in aeronautical engineering from the top university in Sweden and he's working in a kiosk selling newspapers and cigarettes.

Me on the other hand with an equivalent MSc in electrical engineering, from the same schools have had tons of job offers from across Europe. I didn't even have to look for work, they came to me. (I ended up with a colleague starting a company of my own and that has worked out very well so far - but getting a new job would not be difficult).

The difference? I have a European name and look European while he has a Middle Eastern name and looks Middle Eastern.

But it doesn't stop there, and this is where it really begins to suck big time. It's hereditary. Mahan's parents are also well-educated but have shitty jobs. His father is an economist with a master's degree. He owns a Pizza shop. His mother is a trained doctor - a surgeon to be precises. She works as a nurse. As you can guess they don't fall into the "wealthy" category. And as a result they did not have the economic means to help him out economically. While the universities are free and anybody can get a student loan, there are other serious expenses - such as paying rent. Where do you find the cheapest apartments? Why in the immigrant dense suburbs of course. So he lives in a dump in Rinkeby, a suburb to Stockholm with some 90% immigrants. And as you can guess that does bring a certain degree of isolation.

My parents on the other hand got to work in their field (both are professors at the university in Västerĺs, before working as fairly high paid specialist in industry) and got to practice their profession. With their economic background they had no problems helping me out financially. So I own and live in a fairly large flat in central Stockholm.

Is that fair? We have the same education - hell, his grades were better. Is it fair that we end up so differently just because he has a Middle Eastern name? The funny thing is that he's not resentful at all, he accepts it as a part of the way things are. I'm telling you that had I been subjected to such an unjust system, I'm not sure I wouldn't be rioting.

And to top it off, Sweden is one of the more open European states.

Bottom line integration is a big problem in Europe and we must work on it. That doesn't in any way justify using violence, but I can understand where it is coming from. Punish those that break the law and then do some serious work to solve the underlying problem.

I'm not at all sure how this can be done as it is not a question of legislation, but of people's mindset towards non-Europeans.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Sure could use a Ran update right about now- the coverage of these riots here in America has been sparse at best, nonexistent at worst, and most of it is of the "lol France" flavor anyway. I want some firsthand accounts =\

[Supah 0]

Racisme in the workplace is very hard to prove Denoir. There are many variables in play which determine if someone does or does not get hired. Small businesses might have a culture of racisme in individual cases but you're not going to tell me entire international companies like saab, nokia, ikea etc. all hate people with middle eastern heritage.

If the guys father owns a pizza shop good for him. In the end you're never going to get rich working for someone else. If he had pushed harder and tried to expand into multiple locations he might have been better off. You make your own succes to a large degree. I know of a local welfare institution that doesnt hire many muslims because of earlier problems with demands for a room to pray in etc. If margins are allready small you arent going to be able to do stuff like that. If mohammed has good qualifications and comes to me for a job then I'll hire them. But sooner or later you get the "Allah says alcohol is immoral" skit and there you go.

If your friend feels he has been passed over for a job unjustly he should pursue that company in the courts. If you say he is good at what he does and a stable dependable employee maybe offering him a position in your company is a option once you get to the point where you can afford employees if you haven't allready

About this ghetto forming. There are no official policies doing this. People can chose freely where they want to live and the choose to live together. Which I can understand. In the end their youths made these a sort of islamist free states, in the case of paris, where the police doesn't go willingly. These people have enormously "long toes" or a "short fuse". Take the example in france.

Two boys mistakenly believed they were being chased by the police, did something enormously stupid and got killed. Any reasonable person would understand that this was an accident and largely the boys own responsibillity. But apparently this is a reason to go out in the streets, set fire your neighbours possessions who probably worked hard to afford them, torch schools and shops which you previously complained there were too little of in your area and to top it off a bus with a disabled person still in it.

The french police made the wrong decision ages ago when they decided it was best to let sleeping dogs lie and not go into the islamist freestates in their suburbs in order to not stir up trouble. This is tremendously counter productive for a couple of reasons.

Everyone in those neighbourhoods are french citizens and subject to french law. They are entitled to protection under it and obliged to comply with its rules. By staying out you leave the people who mean well to the Islamist and the petty street criminals. You create a feeling of lawlessness or that another law then that of the Republic of France applies.

Engagement is very important. These people feel the police is out to get them specifically. The police is not. You are never going to show them your good will if you stay away from them. The police should have gone into those neighbourhoods, had trouble arisen merely because of their presence there they should have dealt legitimately with those elements and continue to come to those neighbourhoods. Good and fair policing would have prevented all this trouble.

At this point I think it has progressed to a point where the young generation, which is much much more militant and religiously extremist then their parents which is a pan european problem, is beyond control and their behaviour is not supported by the community they claim to represent as shown by the large counter protest marches from the inhabitants of the neighbourhoods. I think it is best to deal with this european intifada now then let it grow and spread. I don't think the police is equiped or trained to deal with this and the best idea is to use the armed forces. You simply can't negotiate with people like this as their demands would weaken the very foundations of our civilisation.

[xawery 0]

You know Supah, for someone who considers himself left-of-centre, your opinions on the Islam sound a lot like those of Marco Pastors.

As to this:

Quote[/b] ]The french police made the wrong decision ages ago when they decided it was best to let sleeping dogs lie and not go into the islamist freestates in their suburbs in order to not stir up trouble. This is tremendously counter productive for a couple of reasons.

I'm afraid you are not quite aware of what the situation was in the ghetto's. The police were not absent, on the contrary - they regularly harrassed the inhabitants, stopping and frisking people based solely on their appearence. I suggest you read some sociologists' reports and/or books on this matter (for example Laurent Mucchielli's Violences et insécurité. Fantasmes et réalités dans le débat français). The inhabitants of the ghetto's experienced the police actions as systematic humiliations. That, combined with low socio-economic standing, is the reason for the riots, not some supposed Islamist supremacy sentiments. The deaths of the three youths, as irrelevant and stupid they may seem (who hides in an electricity sub-station?), were a gush of oxygen that turned smouldering discontent into flaming riots.

Nothing can justify such all-encompassing violence, but to blame it on the big bad Islam is a knee-jerk reaction based on ignorance and prejudice.

[Necromancer- 0]

Nothing can justify such all-encompassing violence, but to blame it on the big bad Islam is a knee-jerk reaction based on ignorance and prejudice.

I am sorry, but the fact that "All non-Muslims should be fought against" is written in the Quran is unfortunately not my fault (or else this religious qualling has never happend).

A VVD member (Hirsi Ali) of the Dutch parliament has discussed this on "Netwerk" on television.

She totally acknowledges that this "All non-Muslims should be fought against" rule is written in the Quran. She said that every muslim organisation should debate about this matter and ask themselves what to do with that rule.

The Bible has such a rule too "All non-believers should die/tortured etc.". As you would notice, all European Christians disregarded that rule and continued to live with their religion.

I assume that Hirsi Ali meant that too with the Quran, to disregard the "all non-muslims should be fought against" rule.