European Politics Thread.

[vilas 473]

1956 in Poland was also violent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozna%C5%84_1956_protests

but in fact west believes that after WW2 it was following:

 

- Hitler kaput, nations try to rebuild after war,

- eastern block , people chosen communism and they live poor in communism

 

it is very simple and not exact

 

in eastern block people NOT chosen communism

Stalin and Roosvelt and Churchil signed pact

we fallen under Soviet side

than we were opposing with arms !

end of WW2 was not end of fight

end of WW2 was end of fights but with Germans

with commies people fought, our partizans (guerillas) still wanted to have country like before WW2 (capitalistic)

and 40s were very bloody , guerilla fights in forest, villages,

of course in big cities all was controlled by commies, there were no fights in big cities, but small villages - people had many arms after WW2 and people do not wanted communist economy

commies made fake voting which they falsified and commies said "people chosen communism"

but till 1947 there was civil war here in forests/woods, vilages,

when this fought was lost by patriotic side, commies created terror for society,

part of this terror were commies with Jewish origns (Stalin idea was : push one nation on other nation, make police from one nation on territory of other nation - so people not cooperate with police and police not feel sorry for locals) of course they were not Jews who believe in god, they were people who were told "look , fascists want Hitler to return" and they maybe believed that anti-commies are neo-fascists, Stalin was perfectly using divide et impera rule and stalin was first who forced multiculti,

Jews were used by Stalin as tool , Stalin knew they feel bad after WW2,

also many of them were commies before WW2 who wanted Poland to be 18-th Republic of USSR and for that they were imprisoned before WW2 here altough i do not know if using word Jews is proper, they were commies who not believe in nation or religion, they believed in mixed communist society, Jews were supporting communism because Tsar opressed them in Russian Empire era,  Stalin (who was Georgian not Russian) chosen them to be used as tool,

thats why i do not like mixed EU idea - reminds me USSR

 

btw. when one of my r.i.p. friends was participating in 1968 invasion in Czechoslovakia, he said , they were told by officer who was leading platoon, that they go to Germany because neo-nazis wanted recreate fascism, they had no idea they go to Czechoslovakia

[bardosy 154]

Oh, now I understand what you mean 1956 was a civil war. Do you mean communist Hungarians fought against non-commies Hungarians?

Yeah, in some way it happened, but only in the first day. But in Hungary was so few commies, then they immediately disappeared after the first few shoot-out. And after that (about for a month) we fought against the soviet Red Army and this is what we call Independence War.

[vilas 473]

by civil war i mean "people fight with arms, people inside one country territory, mostly people from this country"

by war i mean "one country attack other country"

so probably precise would be Hungarian-Soviet war in 1956

so yes, correct, it was Soviet war on Hungary

in case of Poland we had civil war - our commies + Soviet officers fought with our WW2 patriotic underground , our commies fought with our free-market defenders,

in case of terror in Poland, Soviets (Russians, Jews together were 60 % Polish commies were 40% in case of officers with medium ranks, in case of generals many were Russians ) were mostly officers, among regular secret police they were minority (Israeli journalist found documents saying it was ca 18 %)
so in 40s Poles fought with Poles sadly , although over half of ordering officers were not Poles, but Polish rifleman obeyed orders, because they were promissed to get free flat, good salary, car, holidays , medical care,

most of those who joined commies were pre-WW2  low class, not educated, very poor,

they were first time to doctor thanx to commies, they had first school thanx to commies (before WW2 Poland was very capitalistic and there was big diversity between poor and rich, maybe that time it was common in all west, because before WW2 we were "west" too ) also before WW2 there were remaining XIX c. structure (nobles), probably in west it was similar, also nobles were still strong , many rich people were simply nobles who lived from work of farmers on farms those nobles owned, landlords ? maybe this word in English is proper

[dontknowhow 33]

i do not know what about history of WW2 and post WW2 is taugh in western schools but:

effect that we fell under communism was because Roosvelt and Churchil signed pact with Stalin about dividing what belongs to USSR and what not

yes, I know about that, and 1956 in Hungary, and 1968 in Prague, and I personally remember 1982 in Poland.

I just had to better look at Yalta, and I found an interesting link:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal

 

I didn't know that. It's very interesting. So it is really interpreted as a betrayal. Wow

 

 

when we joined EU we were told that EU will fund us things, we were told that EU respect national values and soveirgnty,

now we hear about gay marriages

If you don't want gay marriage you won't have gay marriage, as far as I'm concerned. I just strongly disagree with that. I don't think it can be voted out, or enforced, to use Schulz's language. But I could be wrong

 

 

bs,

it works following way:

- company X produce 1000 goods , company Y produce 200 goods,

people demand 1200 goods,

but Y belong to state ABC, so X pays bribe to government of ABC and buys Y for 1 dollar, than destroy plant, and X now produce 1200 goods and dictate price

I will stop here, there is enough to say. A few points:

 

1) first, you are assuming Y belongs to ABC, I am assuming free enterprise. Major difference. By the way, it's interesting to see how you didn't even consider the option of Y being private.

2) bribes can always be investigated, proved, and sentenced. Here:

 

https://www.fbi.gov/washingtondc/press-releases/2015/former-chief-financial-officer-of-siemens-argentina-pleads-guilty-to-role-in-multi-million-dollar-foreign-bribery-scheme

 

If it happens in Argentina I'm sure it can happen in Poland, Hungary, and anywhere in Europe

 

3) if X can dictate price because it's the only company producing that good in the state ABC, another company Z will be motivated to move into ABC. If X and Z set the price together they make a cartel, and it's illegal. The EU has a commissioner for that, traditionally pretty tough.

I think it's also allowed that people start importing the good from the neighbor country. Not sure though

4) depending on the barrier of entry, it's always possible that a company W based in ABC starts producing that good in ABC at a lower price. Then X might lower the price so much that W goes bankrupt. This is called predatory pricing, and it's illegal.

 

 

buaahahahah

so you do not know how French farmers get funds from ocupation of roads ?

and what about EU Comision decision to gave money to German ship building plant instead of Polish ship building flat

German worker earning 2000 Euro need help from EU, but Polish worker earning 500 EU doesn't need ?

 

French farmers protesting against Polish apples on market ?

in free market - if I produce cheaper - you are unemployed and it is your problem, not my

in EU you get refund, for which also i must pay, and i am unemployed because my product is blocked

rhetoric question - if in Poland food is few times cheaper than western one, if Polish worker earns few times less... than if we had free market (price decides) why German , French farmers still have job ? :D

if there would be competition for addon of tank for VBS, you would say 1000 dollars for addon of tank with features, i would say 500,

i get contract not you,

such way works clean honest free market competition

but if for such addon of tank , you would be paid 1000 and i would have to pay tax 100 - to fund you - than sorry, i take rifle (example) and solve issue other way or i leave such business,

thats why more and more people here want to leave EU, they are YET not majority needed to vote of course, they are still minority, but in UK it is said that there is chance that eurosceptics could win in 2016/2017

maybe in Slovakia, Czech republic, who knows

What I know is that there are pretty clear rules, and for what I know they are more or less fair. I don't expect them to be violated. I know that each country tends to make its own interest, but I'm sure there is a limit to that.

Again, I can't go into the specific problem of farmers. I don't know much.

 

Now, the reason why life is cheaper in Poland is exactly that: to be more competitive. I personally know someone who married a Polish woman, and took advantage of a trip to Poland to have a complete medical check up, because in Poland it's much cheaper. But price is not the only thing people consider, or no one would by German cars. So maybe people come to me for that addon because they think I do a better job, or they simply trust me more. And you don't have to pay any tax. Besides, if I ask 1000 I don't do shit with your 100

 

 

you said that what Shultz said was okay, for me ... i do not say due to forum rules ;) lets say for me it is "unforgiven" as what was done with privatization here, our grandfathers fought for other future (current government in 25 days looses position, now they work how to privatize state-forests in last days before they will be dethroned)

pay attention, I didn't say it's okay, I said he was basically right. That is, if he had said "we will vote this because at one point we have to move on so the majority will decide" that would have been absolutely fine. It's democracy. But if he says "you shut the fuck up and do as I say" that is not so fine.

[vilas 473]

 

1) first, you are assuming Y belongs to ABC, I am assuming free enterprise. Major difference. By the way, it's interesting to see how you didn't even consider the option of Y being private.

 

man, you have basic lacks of history

bolded : there was no private industry here before 1989

things that were sold to be destroyed were state-owned

only things that you had private before 1989 could be grocery shop

do you understand or i should write it in big letters and 100 times ?

there was no private owned companies here

in 40/50s even cars were mostly state-owned and to buy car you had to get special paper cause car production was owned by state and cars were GIVEN to party members, police, army etc.

like limousines in USSR

- ZIL limousine for highest party members

-  Chaika for regional party rulers

- Volga for usual party members, police, kgb etc

 

you couldn't save money and buy ZIL limousine or Chaika, you had to be on high position in communist party to GET IT for free

 

in Poland, in Warsaw it was similiar with flats

biggest cubature flats in old town - highest party members

big cubature flats in city center - medium party members

so when you go to old town in my city, see old people living in old town (starowka) you can be for 99% sure, that in 50s they were bloody commies, ministers, party secretary etc. because such flats are very very expensive and noone was buying them just like that

[dontknowhow 33]

 

Yes, EU is not. Because EU is the cover organization of France and Germany

Yeah, like the others are complete idiots. In particular Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg have been idiots for about 65 years.

Come on.

 

 

 

Of course there are way to make profit by ruining other countries economy: I wrote it to you how western companies buy our companies and then ruin them for profit.

And there are other ways too. Just google how George Soros ruined with small far-asian countries by fiscal maneuvers.

I guess it is similar to how Soros ruined the British economy. Yes, someone does say that.

Soros is a big speculator, but he can't ruin a whole economy, unless it's very small. And definitely not with fiscal maneuvers. He has no fiscal power.

 

I stand by my comment. Except extreme cases there aren't really ways to profit from a ruined economy. Actually, considering the reduction in trade, I would consider it more a disadvantage.

[dontknowhow 33]

man, you have basic lacks of history

bolded : there was no private industry here before 1989

Yes I know that, thank you. But Poland joined the EU in 2004.

I won't put it in bold because I'm a nice guy.

[vilas 473]

 

Soros is a big speculator, but he can't ruin a whole economy, unless it's very small. And definitely not with fiscal maneuvers. He has no fiscal power.

 

you are ignoring facts, examples etc.

 

i can only repeat - destroying one country economy gives profit to other country :

- destroying competition

- taxless flow of profits

- cheap labor created because of unemployment elsewhere

 

and for people so extremely rich like bilionaries, bribe like 10 milion dollars is low money,

for politicans in country where people earn 100 dolars, such bribe is mountain of gold

 

 

. But Poland joined the EU in 2004.

 

and all was privatized in early 90s

EU came when all here was "their"

in 2003 unemployment was here over 20%

many educated people with university degree were happy to clean streets of western cities, many doctors for cheap etc

EU changed one thing - without this mass migration we would have riots, maybe civil war here because all young and frustrated people (i was unemployed MSc for 18 months) would do here revolution because of poverty

and those commies and liberals would be hanged or we would be dead

it was boiling point when we joined EU and suddenly over milion unemployed people escaped to west and started sending money to families

i was unemployed since 2002-2003 because in over 20% unemployment competition was such high, that knowing 2 foreign languages , MSc meant nothing even for McDonald

in west person with Masters degree is someone very educated, 2 foreign languages is something too,

here in 2000 it was normal to get ANY junk job because businesmen (employers) had such expectations cause competition was extremely big that there were jokes like "without PhD we cannot clean street"

result of 90s privatisation were salaries like 200 euro

 

in my first job in 2003 i had 849 PLN to hand - 200 euro, exactly 202 Euro per month, i was working in AutoCad for one company, it was not cleaning streets, it was AutoCad (and thats why i could do models and started addonmaking, because i was expirienced in 3d modeling in AutoCad, ArchiCad) and thats why i was going to police, because other jobs were junk jobs and only state-jobs were better and thats why i later get to other law enforcement becaue there i get 1400 PLN in 2004, 1400 PLN is 330 Euro per month,

it was result of privatisation and destruction of industry

we were total colony

 

when 2 milions of Poles escaped, suddenly in McDonald you earn better, there were no people to work, so employers had to pay more , now worker earns 500, 600, 700 Euro here,

thats why now they want Ukraine in EU, thats why they want to push those muslims, becaue than they can LOWER salaries for natives (competition)

our businesmen (rather commie kids and cheaters who want to have slaves) ask to bring imigrants cause they say that paying 700 Euro per month is too big, they wish to pay 200 , and than save money for another Ferrari,

in 90s we had huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge poverty group and small group owning few Ferrari Lamborghini Mercedes S klasse cars (employers who paid shit money to people)

i had clothes bought in second hand shops (a lot of second hand shops are in Poland) and it is against dignity of man to be forced to wear jacket or shirt that was used by someone from west just he simply throw it away and we have to buy it because we are poor

but such times were in late 90s, early 00s

and lots of such people are still living in such status nowadays too , people buy second hand shirts, malnutrition but merkel says to give flats to muslims - no f. way

 

 

So it is really interpreted as a betrayal. Wow

 

and how can it be other way interpreted - it is betrial

like selling abroad - is betrial

funder of my country after WW1 said that selling land abroad is national betrayal and should be punished with death

[dontknowhow 33]

you are ignoring facts, examples etc.

I don't think so. Soros is a legend, and is role in the 1998 crisis is disputed at best. At any rate Soros is a speculator, not a country. I don't doubt Germany could send a few countries in bankruptcy, they just don't have a reason. Soros is the opposite: he has a reason, he just can't. I am not sure he even wants it, actually.

 

 

- destroying competition

Wow, you really must have a lot of competition. Which is strange, considering that you can send the whole country into bankruptcy so easily

 

- taxless flow of profits

And what profits are we talking about if the economy is ruined? Besides, why should they be tax free?

 

 

- cheap labor created because of unemployment elsewhere

This might make more sense, but now tell me how much I can profit from cheap labor, especially considering that I can send everything to China. And again, I lose trade

 

 

and all was privatized in early 90s

EU came when all here was "their"

in 2003 unemployment was here over 20%

many educated people with university degree were happy to clean streets of western cities, many doctors for cheap etc

EU changed one thing - without this mass migration we would have riots, maybe civil war here because all young and frustrated people (i was unemployed MSc for 18 months) would do here revolution because of poverty

and those commies and liberals would be hanged or we would be dead

it was boiling point when we joined EU and suddenly over milion unemployed people escaped to west and started sending money to families

i was unemployed since 2002-2003 because in over 20% unemployment competition was such high, that knowing 2 foreign languages , MSc meant nothing even for McDonald

in west person with Masters degree is someone very educated, 2 foreign languages is something too,

here in 2000 it was normal to get ANY junk job because businesmen (employers) had such expectations cause competition was extremely big that there were jokes like "without PhD we cannot clean street"

result of 90s privatisation were salaries like 200 euro

 

in my first job in 2003 i had 849 PLN to hand - 200 euro, exactly 202 Euro per month, i was working in AutoCad for one company, it was not cleaning streets, it was AutoCad (and thats why i could do models and started addonmaking, because i was expirienced in 3d modeling in AutoCad, ArchiCad) and thats why i was going to police, because other jobs were junk jobs and only state-jobs were better and thats why i later get to other law enforcement becaue there i get 1400 PLN in 2004, 1400 PLN is 330 Euro per month,

it was result of privatisation and destruction of industry

we were total colony

 

when 2 milions of Poles escaped, suddenly in McDonald you earn better, there were no people to work, so employers had to pay more , now worker earns 500, 600, 700 Euro here,

thats why now they want Ukraine in EU, thats why they want to push those muslims, becaue than they can LOWER salaries for natives (competition)

in 90s we had huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge poverty group and small group owning few Ferrari Lamborghini Mercedes S klasse cars (employers who paid shit money to people)

 

Actually, according to Wikipedia the biggest privatizations were in 2000 and 2004. And the latter didn't go to the Germans, didn't go to the French, it went on the stock market.

Honestly, don't take it personally, but in the 90's, particularly in the early 90's, you were pretty much fucked up. Blaming the Germans is quite unfair. And don't think 2002-2003 were easy years for the rest of Europe.

[vilas 473]

you are ignorant thinking or what

i repeat

before 1989 all belonged to state

because of bribes from some corporations, state officials sold industry

some things were competitive and could be serious competition (light industry - fabric, shirts, jeans, cotton) , chemical industry (soap, shampoo, washing powder), electronic (phones, optics ), cheap cars (not high tech but chip), weapons, helicopters, heavy machinery (forklifters, buldozers)

and also energy sector (power plants, wires, telecomunication)

banks

how it is possible to sell bank to other bank for 10% of value

 

This might make more sense, but now tell me how much I can profit from cheap labor, especially considering that I can send everything to China. And again, I lose trade

 

again ignorant thinking

what about doctor, nurse, engineer, coder who works for 1/2 , what about construction worker, forklift operator, a friends of me work in London, they worked on minimal UK salary although their qualifications are not cleaning streets,

who is personal in old-people houses abroad ? our nurses say "i hate to change pampers to disgusting ex SS man wife but i have to"

fiends of me graduated technological universities, now they work in UK, Ireland, some have PhD and work in IT because they wanted half what native wanted,

i also modeled for other game , i modeled cause i worked on their country LOWEST allowed by law salary, for such salary they have cleaner ,not 3d artist but i worked for half year for one compeny (name is secret) whom i made several models , my salary was lowest allowed by their law , their cleaner earns the same

now Ukrainian doctors work in my medical center, because Polish doctor would not agree on such salary and Polish doctor sits in UK, because English doctor wanted twice more

you cannot send to China health, street cleaning, construction works, palette in warehouse

yesterday i was at medical center, doctor who treated me was Ukrainian, Ukrainians put products on shelves in my local Carrefour, because Poles put on shelves products in Ireland,

cheap labor in Carrefour saves money of Carrefour, not paying taxes = huge income that comes to France, i can only guess how many benefits have French worker in Carrefour and part of it comes from my pocket

 

 

laming the Germans is quite unfair.

Germany is not precize shortage, of course Germany, France, UK , USA,

west , Germany is just one example

but of course whole big western countries

[[evo] dan 79]

 

 

Germany is not precize shortage, of course Germany, France, UK , USA,

west , Germany is just one example

but of course whole big western countries

Mainly the rich seem to have benefitted from the EU, before the Eastern European countries were let in, wages were rising due to low employment, ever since, the increase in the workforce has held SO many people onto the absolute minimum wage or even worse, onto a zero-hour contract. Thus you see over 1 million people going to foodbanks in the UK.

 

Btw, lots of our large businesses are foreign owned, besides banks and drugs companies. For example look at our big car companies (owned mostly by VW or GM), our big chocolate producer is owned by Kraft (american), our power stations by EDF or RWE, the list goes on.

[dontknowhow 33]

you are ignorant thinking or what

don't start pointing at ignorant thinking people, you might lose.

Calm down

 

 

i repeat

before 1989 all belonged to state

because of bribes from some corporations, state officials sold industry

some things were competitive and could be serious competition (light industry - fabric, shirts, jeans, cotton) , chemical industry (soap, shampoo, washing powder), electronic (phones, optics ), cheap cars (not high tech but chip), weapons, helicopters, heavy machinery (forklifters, buldozers)

and also energy sector (power plants, wires, telecomunication)

banks

how it is possible to sell bank to other bank for 10% of value

 

I get that, thank you. That is not the point. I was trying to make a more general discussion, not just talking about Poland. You were focusing on the case with only state companies, and I found it peculiar.

Not so important, forget it.

 

 

again ignorant thinking

what about doctor, nurse, engineer, coder who works for 1/2 , what about construction worker, forklift operator, a friends of me work in London, they worked on minimal UK salary although their qualifications are not cleaning streets,

who is personal in old-people houses abroad ? our nurses say "i hate to change pampers to disgusting ex SS man wife but i have to"

fiends of me graduated technological universities, now they work in UK, Ireland, some have PhD and work in IT because they wanted half what native wanted,

i also modeled for other game , i modeled cause i worked on their country LOWEST allowed by law salary, for such salary they have cleaner ,not 3d artist but i worked for half year for one compeny (name is secret) whom i made several models , my salary was lowest allowed by their law , their cleaner earns the same

now Ukrainian doctors work in my medical center, because Polish doctor would not agree on such salary and Polish doctor sits in UK, because English doctor wanted twice more

you cannot send to China health, street cleaning, construction works, palette in warehouse

yesterday i was at medical center, doctor who treated me was Ukrainian, Ukrainians put products on shelves in my local Carrefour, because Poles put on shelves products in Ireland,

cheap labor in Carrefour saves money of Carrefour, not paying taxes = huge income that comes to France

at least 4 of those jobs you mentioned can't be done remotely, so your argument doesn't apply. Either you physically go to that country or you take workers to yours, which means they can demand a higher salary. Maybe they are naive and will ask less (they won't; if your friends do it they are wrong, especially if it's not the first job), but there is a minimal advantage.

 

Now, I'm not sure you noticed, but what you posted didn't make much sense. I'm saying that again: calm down

 

See, this is the reason why I don't want to get into these so called discussions. There is only to lose. And I even started it because of this "colony" insanity.

 

 

Germany is not precize shortage, of course Germany, France, UK , USA,

west , Germany is just one example

but of course whole big western countries

whatever. Blaming them is unfair. You were coming from 45 years of bad (terrible) management, what do you expect?

[bardosy 154]

@dontknowhow: if I understand you correctly, you said when a company destroy and other company because of profit, it's not nation against nation or country against country?

I understand that point of view: free market, multinational companies... etc.

But I have many example to proove my point of view.

A free company (but originally from France) make a huge profit in Hungary with food tickets. This company was hired one of Hungarian government to organize this food-ticket business (is a boss want give more money to employee without paying extra tax, he could buy ticket from this French company and give it to workers). This company had extreme huge profit (from the money of Hungarian taxpayers). But it's ok, because one of our government hire them.

But we elect a new government and this new PM think different. Why this company get the profit and bring it back to France. And they create a national (Hungarian) company to do the same. And send the French back to France.

If this is not an economical fight nation against nation as you suggested, this company had to accept this and go back to France. But they run to the PM of France and cry. The PM of France run to Brussel and cry. Then EU parliament apply economical sanction against Hungary because we do with our money what we want and don't want to give it to France.

How is it fit into your point of view?

(to better search, the company name is Sodexo)

[vilas 473]

There is only to lose. And I even started it because of this "colony" insanity.

 

 

insanity is denying reality, proofs, examples from REAL colony

insanity is denying truth

colony is created nowadays not by army, but by bribery during privatization or by banksters by creating debts that force privatization (Greece soon)

 

whatever. Blaming them is unfair.

 

who paid bribes to buy for penny, who paid bribes to avoid taxes , who paid taxes to courts during labor-rights breaking scandals

 

(to better search, the company name is Sodexo)

 

oooo

oooo

in Poland in government we also were getting those Sodexo tickets to buy things really, i remember getting those tickets too instead of money

 

i was getting such "bonus for Christmass" - i was getting Sodexo tickets instead of money, so clerks in Polish administration were getting Sodexo tickets to buy in Carrefour shops, instead of getting bonus money on Christmass, i had Sodexo for Carrefour, Leroy-Merlin and Auchan

ca 50-100 Euro tickets were given to me in few years for Easter and for Christmass, i had no idea it worked the same in Hungary

such ticket could not been used in other shops, i would prefer cash but i had Sodexo

[bardosy 154]

in Poland in government we also were getting those Sodexo tickets to buy things really, i remember getting those tickets too instead of money

 

i was getting such "bonus for Christmass" - i was getting Sodexo tickets instead of money

As dontknowhow suggested Sodexo is a kind of "not-know-what-country-is" company. Before France declare diplomatic war against Hungary, because of Sodexo, I don't even know this is a French company.

[vilas 473]

so is it not colony if i get instead of money in cash, Sodexo ticket to be utilized on shopping in Carrefour ?

i was clerk in government - which meant those were taxpayer money that i earned, which means from taxes of Polish shopkeeper/worker/taxpayer i get Sodexo ticket to spend them in Carrefour

but  i had no idea that this company was so important that it led to troubles to Hungary

[dontknowhow 33]

@dontknowhow: if I understand you correctly, you said when a company destroy and other company because of profit, it's not nation against nation or country against country?

Not quite. As I said, for what I know state support to a company has happened (rarely I believe), and I mostly don't think it's fair, but we are talking about a country destroying a whole country for profit. Aside from the fact that is despicable to say the least, I am honestly not sure how you can profit from that

I am basically trying to make the point that Germany or whatever big western country destroying Polish or Hungarian economy for profit doesn't make much sense.

Besides, really, how can you think that another European country wants you bankrupt for profit?

 

I don't know about Sodexo, but the Wikipedia page doesn't seem to report anything about that. There are a lot of controversies, but nothing related to Hungary. At any rate, from what I understand, what they did was pretty legal. Unless it's coming from bribes, of course. You might say it's unfair (and maybe we can talk about it), but they followed the rules. Obviously they are in for the money.

If your point is that Sodexo actually damaged the Hungarian economy that might be (and again, I'm not sure), but that the economy is destroyed by the French government for profit goes a bit too far.

 

On the other side, why did they do this thing tax free in the first place?

[bardosy 154]

Not quite. As I said, for what I know state support to a company has happened (rarely I believe), and I mostly don't think it's fair, but we are talking about a country destroying a whole country for profit. Aside from the fact that is despicable to say the least, I am honestly not sure how you can profit from that

I am basically trying to make the point that Germany or whatever big western country destroying Polish or Hungarian economy for profit doesn't make much sense.

Besides, really, how can you think that another European country wants you bankrupt for profit?

OK. You are right. I was simplicized the problem. Of course not Germany or France come here and destroy our economy. But they support (with political and economical power) their national companies to make more profit - even if they made profit to destroy other nation's companies - because more profit is more tax in France.

Is it understandable? Can you imagine our examples to how a company make profit by destroying other companies?

And if you imagine to this, that so called multinational company (but originally from France) destroy a Polish company but don't fill the space, don't give job to the workers who lost their job because of the French company. Don't sell the same quality product as the original Polish company created, but damaged ones.... This is what we call, they made profit by destroying an other country economy. Because the Polish company will not pay tax anymore...

 

At any rate, from what I understand, what they did was pretty legal. Unless it's coming from bribes, of course.

I told you there what I think legal: when previous government hire them. Yes, it's legal. But when Sodexo use political power of France's diplomatic assets and accuse us in many way for years and they force EU parliament to punish us with economic sanctions. That was not legal! At least in my opinion. Or if it was legal, I think I EU parliament should working on more important things than a stupid company's affair.

 

You might say it's unfair (and maybe we can talk about it), but they followed the rules. Obviously they are in for the money.

I understand what they did and if I were them I also run for my money, but not in this way. There are legal ways. But declare diplomatic war on Hungary is not legal.

 

If your point is that Sodexo actually damaged the Hungarian economy that might be (and again, I'm not sure), but that the economy is destroyed by the French government for profit goes a bit too far.

Sodexo didn't attack us economically, they attacked us diplomatically. What is far from what I think about an independent company.

 

On the other side, why did they do this thing tax free in the first place?

It not Sodexo did. This is very normal. I'm sure this kind of benefit is exits in your country too. It's not obligatory, but an option.

Currently this ticket is published and managed by a caritative foundation, and they use the profit to bring poor families to vacation.

[vilas 473]

, really, how can you think that another European country wants you bankrupt for profit?

 

 

it is not thinking, it is reality

reality is - 11 bilions of euro of not paid by corporations taxes leave every year my country and goes to other countries

companies that were destroyed in early 90s is reality, not thinking

 

 

, why did they do this thing tax free in the first place?

 

bribes, also EU bribes "do what we say and you will get to Brussels with high salary and all your family will get good positions, just do what we want", Tusk is example - they gave him huge position

another example is Marcinkiewicz - guy was our prime minister, later he get good position in one British bank in London

 

not only Sodexo issues, not only Siemens buying ZWUT, ELWRO

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/02/lidl-1bn-public-development-funding-supermarket-world-bank-eastern-europe

http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/world-bank-aid-lidl-retailer-eastern-europe-germany-development

 

-----

 

this is all in short : tax = budget , more tax , less debts, less tax, more debts (Greek future)

 

 

- because more profit is more tax in France.

Because the Polish company will not pay tax anymore...

[bardosy 154]

On the other side, why did they do this thing tax free in the first place?

Ok, I read what vilas answered and maybe we misunderstand each other.

Sadexo pay tax (where it was registered, at France).

But what they do (selling this tax-free food ticket) is tax free.

[vilas 473]

in our case -

from taxpayer money (Polish taxpayer) i was getting Sodexo tickets instead of cash (in job)

i could do shopping for it in Carrefour

supermarkets transfer profit abroad, Sodexo too,

which means from Polish taxpayer money i had to buy "in France" (from tax point of view)

almost all supermarkets in Poland do not pay taxes, banks too,

Polish grocery shop pays 19% the same time

Poland bought newest production lines in 1988 (commies bought), in 1989 ELWRO lines were sold cheap to Siemens,

Siemens took those machines (they were than modern) to Germany, destructed ELWRO buildings

similar in ZWUT - in ZWUT my uncle was technical vice director so i know details

Lidl get tax money on west - to make their position in east, Lidl was funded by western tax money because Lidl will transfer profit abroad and this investment will profit west (country where Lidl pay taxes)

probably there money from Poland will be used to build "charity" stuff which profits locals in west

i call it colony, tax there, lack of tax here and when we want soverign decision about muslims - than Shultz threat us

http://wpolityce.pl/polityka/267097-beda-kolejne-naciski-niemiecki-szef-msw-musimy-w-ue-zobowiazac-sie-do-stalych-wspanialomyslnych-kontyngentow-dla-uchodzcow

German MoFA says again about that EU countries MUST take percent quotas instead of build wall around EU, if Merkel says that islam is part of Germany - it should remain for her voters only, our part is King Sobieski, our part is Chrismass tree, dumplings, sausage, what Merkel wants - should not influent me

 

Greek privatization - Tonci said already week ago

[vilas 473]

http://niezalezna.pl/71473-polskie-miasta-odmawiaja-przyjmowania-islamskich-uchodzcow-wola-pomagac-repatriantom

 

more and more city presidents, city halls, town mayors refuse to take migrants 

one city hall spokesman said "it is not  that empty flats wait empty, Poles are waiting for flats and do not have flats for them"

 

----

back to Hamburg and Sweden regulations on confiscating property for muslims

@Tonci - if developer build something, he put money in it, 

if he keeps price and building is empty - those are still money of developer 

it is coup on basic property right

it is owner issue what he can do with property or not, if block is empty - noone should confiscate it to give to those who not paid for it because it was build for other person money, we are not in 40s of XX c.

otherwise we should do the same with other property, for example we should confiscate BMW, Mercedes cars from saloon, i can pay only 1000, so i ask my gov to confiscate cars and sell me for 1000

[dontknowhow 33]

OK. You are right. I was simplicized the problem. Of course not Germany or France come here and destroy our economy.

thank god, that's a relief

 

 

Is it understandable? Can you imagine our examples to how a company make profit by destroying other companies?

Okay, let's see if I get the point. This is a different discussion. More complex, more interesting.

Yes, it happens. Local governments always tend to support their people. Cities against cities, regions against regions, states against states. If you go to the WTO, where the major economies kick each other's ass, it's even bigger than that. It's about prestige, money, jobs, votes. If there is anything they can do, they will. They will even be unfair. And there are disputes.

Now, going to the parliament looks unlikely (are you sure they went to the parliament?), but involving an agency, or even the commission, should be expected. There are a few cases mentioned here:

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304065704577426560281463958

 

There is particularly a case pitting Austria against Eastern Europe, particularly Hungary and Romania. The European Banking Authority had to convince the Austrians to back off; it wasn't going well for them. Colonies are not always the loser.

 

Now don't get me wrong, there is always politics. It's never black and white. But any major unfairness would be extremely disappointing. The French have liberté, égalité, fraternité; the Germans Einigkeit, Recht, Freiheit. The whole western culture is based on these principles (even if some countries do better than others, unfortunately). If they started "destroying countries" to their advantage it would be totally hypocritical. No, honestly I don't think you should expect that. Rules are blatantly violated only in special cases.

 

 

reality is - 11 bilions of euro of not paid by corporations taxes leave every year my country and goes to other countries

if that happens illegally that is obviously not good, but I wouldn't blame the EU. Otherwise you can't expect companies to be willing to pay taxes to any government. American corporations have trillions parked abroad exactly for that reason:

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-04/u-s-companies-are-stashing-2-1-trillion-overseas-to-avoid-taxes

 

 

companies that were destroyed in early 90s is reality, not thinking

again, you are talking about a critical situation. Blaming western countries is unfair

 

 

bribes, also EU bribes "do what we say and you will get to Brussels with high salary and all your family will get good positions, just do what we want", Tusk is example - they gave him huge position

another example is Marcinkiewicz - guy was our prime minister, later he get good position in one British bank in London

and you think this happens just in Poland?

Ben Bernanke joined a hedge fund; Tim Geithner went to a private equity firm. Gerhard Schröder went to fucking Gazprom, driving a lot of people furious. That was really something.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/02/lidl-1bn-public-development-funding-supermarket-world-bank-eastern-europe

Interesting article, and case in point. If I understand correctly, you speak of a sort of plot to use the World Bank funds to destroy the Polish economy. I am not sure you are aware of what you are saying.

Now, that Lidl uses the funds to expand in Eastern Europe is obvious; that's the stated intention. Aside fromt that, the article clearly says that there is no claim of wrongdoing. Could it be that they use these funds for unfair pricing? Yes, but that is still an allegation, for what I understand. That, by the way, would be illegal.

What I see is more complains for the working conditions. If that is true, I can understand that these things happen in some regions more than others, but don't think the rest of the world is immune. Look for example at Amazon in Germany.

 

So what do we have here? A company that makes use of some funds, as intended, to expand in a weaker economy. So far so good. That use might be unexpectedly harmful, according to some, or even unfair, which is not so good. But destroying the whole economy? They are opening stores and hiring people, how can you come up with that idea? They are creating jobs, not mention that they provide more stuff, cheaper, newer. I didn' have the impression customers were concerned by their economy being destroyed.

[vilas 473]

are you paid by bank, EU, some corporations ? because you twist reality and morality totally - or it is western type of thinking?

i have nothing to discuss with you if you say that those things aren't happening or they are not wrong 

 

because of western corporations, banks etc, people here live poor, mass emigration  etc. 

11 bilions of euros, which should be left here as taxes, fly away abroad every year and it is fact, not theory

supermarkets get dotations abroad so they are killing our shops and this is fact

bribes paid by many corporations killed our industry and now we have huge debts 

 

in 3 weeks we have election, current pseudo-liberal leftist according to last poll have 19%, main opposition consevatists 48% other right wing 7% etc. 

i hope that colonialism will end and all those lids, tesco, carefours will pay tax here

if someone doesn't want to pay tax - than he can go to hell

 

again, you are talking about a critical situation. Blaming western countries is unfair

 

 

bla bla , i am talking what happened to Poland in 90s, 

country which now has 6% emigrated for job, 15% among working age, country with huge debts, 

where half milion of kids are suffering malnutrition, where educated nearly 40 years old people live with parents cause they cannot afford own flats, 

country where foreign business do whatever they want while own business has only problems

balming west is unfair ?

are supermarkets and banks from Russia? is it Russia who transfers from here 11 bilions euro every year ? is it Russia that destroyed in early 90s many industrial plants ? 

were i getting Russian tickets instead of cash to buy in Russian supermarket ?

were those Russian farmers who stopped production of milk and caused tickets few years ago ? were that Russians who told fishermen to wreck boats? 

no, it were corporations from Germany, France, UK, USA etc. and some times supported by EU/western taxes funds 

supporting Lidl shown in link is good example how it works 

Lidl gets money from western funds to cut our shops here , due to this people like my neigbor bankrupt (my neighbor had grocery shop, he couldn't stand competition of foreign shop which doesn't pay 19% tax)

my uncle was director in one electronic company, one corporations bough it from government in 1989, destroyed buildings, took production machines to Germany and closed all, 

 

western governments helped this

maybe not usual western citizens, but their government did it , 

they knew about corruption, they were doing refunds and help to their business, their ministers were discussing with our ministers in 90s to suport western corporations (banks, supermarkets, electronic, machinery industry)

one car producer opened here production "under condition of not pay taxes" , 2 ministers met, than they opened factory, when term to pay tax was close, they closed factory and moved back to other cheap country, 

in their country they also have cars factory, just workers earn there 5 times more and have strong trade unions , free holidays to kids of workers etc. 

[Tonci87 163]

http://niezalezna.pl/71473-polskie-miasta-odmawiaja-przyjmowania-islamskich-uchodzcow-wola-pomagac-repatriantom

 

more and more city presidents, city halls, town mayors refuse to take migrants 

one city hall spokesman said "it is not  that empty flats wait empty, Poles are waiting for flats and do not have flats for them"

 

----

back to Hamburg and Sweden regulations on confiscating property for muslims

@Tonci - if developer build something, he put money in it, 

if he keeps price and building is empty - those are still money of developer 

it is coup on basic property right

it is owner issue what he can do with property or not, if block is empty - noone should confiscate it to give to those who not paid for it because it was build for other person money, we are not in 40s of XX c.

otherwise we should do the same with other property, for example we should confiscate BMW, Mercedes cars from saloon, i can pay only 1000, so i ask my gov to confiscate cars and sell me for 1000

 

 

No Vilas it´s not that simple, and again, nothing is beeing confiscated. And its really about combating rent prices in cities going up and helping people in need at the same time. You always say that the flats are so expensive, guess why that is. House owners (and real estate brokers) are doing the same thing in Poland. A lot of flats are beeing kept empty on purpose to bring up property prices.