European Politics Thread.

[sanctuary 19]

it's just a politician lacking guts.

This one is easy, as it is the definition of a "french politician".

-unemployement mostly complete (not reserved to suburbs though).

-immigrant not integrated nor giving an interest in being a french citizen.

-people regrouping in community of race/religion instead of living with each other.

-give the suburbs youth "do like a football star" suggestions instead of -solid- future and possible opportunities for their adult life.

-no parental caring (10 years old kids rampaging at night and mixing with gangsters ? how great parents, maybe the only point the policitian can do nothing).

-mostly no unrest of the criminals (arresting 2 guys on a criminal gang of 30 never stopped a gang), drug/steal money easier won than hard day work paid a misery.

-leave a small gang terrorising their whole suburbs neighbourgh (the old story of the guy with the knife/gun ruling a town)

-french media/tv being as much stupid and brainless as they can, and in lack of parental care are "raising" the youth (related to the idiots parents previous point) .

Add all those problems never dealt with by our french successive presidents , governments and politicans since more than 20 years in the bag, shake it and you have the result of what is today and a preview of what will be tomorrow (as the french politicians , like they do today, are promising a solution to all of this since those 20 years).

But as said, lacking guts to make changes and strong decision -applied- is the definition of the french politician.

On a related note, it is curious that the world medias only now report the french politician incompetence in front of those situation, as those "riots" and other even more serious crimes situations are happening in the suburbs since +/- 20 years.

[harley 3 1185 0]

:/ I wonder why they haven't let the army deal with this I mean wtf, they beat up an 60 year old man, fire at police men and setting nearly everything on fire and this is going on for awhile jeez.  

I'd imagine that President Chirac, a Gaullist, would be most uneasy with involving the army in such a situation which now exists in Paris and other places.  The shadow of Algeria still hangs over the army, those who emmigrated from Algeria after the war, and a good proportion of the French public who remember the breakdown in society which occurred.

I can't say that I've kept any tabs on French infantry and parachute?  Anyone reckon that they might rebel in the old style and proclaim a Sixieme Republique?  I doubt it very much, but politically it could be a bad move for Chirac and Villepin to send in batallions of infantry when dealing with the Franco-Islamic hierachy in the aftermath (there has to be an end sometime!.

Hopefully large influxes of the C.R.S. and the Gendarmerie Nationale will be able to bring the violence to an end, whether they use intimidation or total force, and only then, having had the proverbial crap kicked out of them, will the Imams, the parents and the senior Muslim community be able to talk sense into the rioters.

There are many social and economic problems affecting the young muslims of France, but when you see them torching scores of buses; the only method of transport for many of those who are lucky to have jobs; you have to question what they are trying to achieve, apart from utter chaos in their communities, polarisation of White-Christian public opinion vis-a-vis their predicament and Lord knows what else.

Islam is not a violent religion, as 95% of the followers of Mohammad will tell you.  Unfortunately, there are those teachers of the Qu'ran who are far from objective and mould the word of Allah and their students into the farce which is manifesting itself on the streets of France.  There is no problem with Islam, just a tiny percentage of those who believe in it.

Therefore, my belief is that the French government is going to have to use the civilian forces of Law & Order to crush what can only be called an insurgency, then cooperate with the leaders of the disaffected communities to push forward some sort of bold new economic plan - get them to work rebuilding their homes would be a very good start I think.

[igor drukov 0]

Hi all

I'm French, I teach in both the Western (posh) and Northern (unposh) suburbs of Paris.

I'm cross, because I hear around me things such as "send them home", "hit them hard", others such as "we haven't given them any opportunity", which are equally unacceptable to me.

Conquer a country in behalf of your civilisation, build things there but oppress its people, get kicked out of it, call them to your country to do menial tasks, cram them into squalid spaces, give them your nationality as a bone to bite, implement bankrupt-bound policies while systematically undermining any source of authority for the sake of it, tell the very sons and daughters of the people you called when you needed them that they are of "immigrant origins" rather than of the nationality which on the other hand you're so proud to say you've given them, spice it all up a little by enforcing repressive drug policies that guarantee steady illegal incomes and that flush honesty and merit down the toilet and you get what we have here.

Now that's for the "send them home", "hit them hard" bull.

So what about the "we haven't given them any opportunity" bull ?

School is compulsory. The kids have been given a chance that they just wouldn't take because they're lazy. Why are they lazy ? Because they're uneducated. There's no more sympathy or apathy to have for any source of immigration. You're in for a world of pain when you're an immigrant. Take a look at all those that entered the US at the beginning of the 20th century. My great-grandfather got bashed on a daily basis as an Italian in France. It takes time, but they made it, and he'd be a stupid ignorant the one that'd say "yes but look at what we did to them" or "these people are too different from us they can't adjust".

What to do, then ? Forfeit our right to know what's going on, and ask the journalists to pull out. Violence will abate if the rioters are not the focus of attention anymore. These kids are lost anyway. If you have no education when you turn 16, then there's either a bullet, a cell or a crack-pipe with your name on it waiting for you out there. Now let's just make sure we don't lose any more kid. Educate, educate, educate.

[ran 0]

What to do, then ? Forfeit our right to know what's going on, and ask the journalists to pull out. Violence will abate if the rioters are not the focus of attention anymore. These kids are lost anyway. If you have no education when you turn 16, then there's either a bullet, a cell or a crack-pipe with your name on it waiting for you out there. Now let's just make sure we don't lose any more kid. Educate, educate, educate.

That's one of the most sensible things I've heard lately. Changes from the usual crap I hear most of my coworkers spouting ...

But the media already caused the damages.

Prefects (the men responsible for law and order in the different "counties") have been allowed to enforce partly law 55-385 concerning state of emergency. They're now allowed to put curfews in place if the feel the need for them. This should start tomorow after a meeting with the officials in question and the Minsters Council.

From the mouth of the Prime Minister de Villepin, 1500 reservists (CRS mostly) have been mobilised rasing the total number of Policemen and Gendarmes deployed to 9500.

The army won't get involved, yet.

[Necromancer- 0]

Now let's just make sure we don't lose any more kid. Educate, educate, educate.

Exactly...

Now about those "lazy kids"...

In case such problems arise on schools, I think the school should send such children to some kind of "military discipline indoctrine" school.

The law should not only obligate the parents to have their children attend school, the law should also enforce the parents to get their children the maximum attention to learn.

However, children who have psychological problems which badly influence their learning capabilities, should be filtered out and follow "special" education.

[sanctuary 19]

What to do, then ? Forfeit our right to know what's going on, and ask the journalists to pull out. Violence will abate if the rioters are not the focus of attention anymore.

The uprising of violence in school has existed way before the "media show" , as a teacher you already should know that.

Those riots are certainly growing because of the "media show", but it had no need of a camera filming people for it to happen.

When i was 12/13 years old , there was already racket in colleges , there was already people beating other in reunion, and that was -20 years ago-, the media guys were not doing their show none talked about it on the tv.

So better let it happen , pretending it does not exist like the media did 20 years earlier ?

Quote[/b] ]These kids are lost anyway. If you have no education when you turn 16, then there's either a bullet, a cell or a crack-pipe with your name on it waiting for you out there. Now let's just make sure we don't lose any more kid. Educate, educate, educate.

Sure they are lost, that's an evidence, sure there is a need of education of the ones that are not lost, that's another evidence, but the problem does not disappear when you say "oh they are lost anyways".

So what to do of those "16 years old" and more that have failed in following a complete legal cursus (as i don't even talk about going to university, just of the 16 years of education forced by the law) ?

Because until now, no french politician has answered this question, and it is supposed to be their job, you know.

[Heatseeker 0]

Conquer a country in behalf of your civilisation, build things there but oppress its people, get kicked out of it, call them to your country to do menial tasks, cram them into squalid spaces, give them your nationality as a bone to bite, implement bankrupt-bound policies while systematically undermining any source of authority for the sake of it, tell the very sons and daughters of the people you called when you needed them that they are of "immigrant origins" rather than of the nationality which on the other hand you're so proud to say you've given them, spice it all up a little by enforcing repressive drug policies that guarantee steady illegal incomes and that flush honesty and merit down the toilet and you get what we have here.

Yeah lets blame ourselves because after we got kicked out of Africa they started their own civil wars and torned their countries into pre historic land.

Lets blame ourselves because we received them in our countries and gave them the oportunity to do something with their lives, to raise and educate their children instead of having them play soccer in minefields, die of disease or starvation, or being recruited to die in war at the age of 10.

Its all our fault that when we try to integrate people in our neighbour hoods to stop the ghettos crime and insecurity rises and people who care about their families leave. Its our sons and daughters fault too so thats why its ok for them to be robbed, beaten and afraid to go to school.

We are all a bunch of racists afterall right? .

Many of them just take their citizenship for granted and choose the easy way, trust me i know this from RL experience, our countries and people dont mean nothing to many of these who have no society values, no respect for anything or anyone, what is happening now proves it perfectly.

Wanna talk about integration, the US have a good perception of this, i heard if you fuck up they will kick your ass outa there even if you are born there (3 generations i think?), thats good motivation for social integration imo, would make wonders over here.

Oh and i do have plenty of friends from "imigrant origin" who work for a living and take good care of their families, maybe because their good men and just give a damn or understand how things are in their countries of origin so they apretiate the chances they get.

You will only have a good perception of what things can turn out to be when your girlfriend gets beaten up in the subway because of a cell phone and you already heard of dozens of cases like this and worse, when its not safe to go out at night anymore in some urban areas, when groups of hundreds storm a beach to rob people or when a supermarket has to close its doors because people are robbing everything they can.

Thats whats happening in my country, add all these social problems to the current finacial instability and it doesnt look good at all.

European countries definetly need to revise their migration policy.This whole incident was a bomb waiting for detonation but at this time it might be too late .

[Thunderbird 0]

Quote[/b] ]So what to do of those "16 years old" and more that have failed in following a complete legal cursus (as i don't even talk about going to university, just of the 16 years of education forced by the law) ?

Perhaps that establishing a new law to forc'em' to join the army would help'em', they'll learn a lot over there instead of wasting their time by making all sorts of illegal business deals and by making people's lives hell...

They'll learn republican values, moral responsibility, respect towards themselves and towards people, and the citizenship values as well!

Though starting chucking stuff on fires and attacking firemen and security by burning cars and destroying schools definetly go against themselves and against whole communities of all immigrants!

I hope that our government will move its ass by making "REAL" efforts even if some of the envisaged methods won't be too supported by medias and by the populace itself...

we have to take our passiveness out to help these people who wanna maintain and live in a peacefull atmosphere at all costs!

Regards

Thunderbird84

[Bordoy 0]

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/07/europe.fears.ap/

Quote[/b] ]Fears of riots spreading in Europe

ROME, Italy (AP) -- The riots spreading across France have exposed the anger, disillusionment and racial tensions simmering in Paris' poor, immigrant neighborhoods. Europeans said Monday they were bracing for copycat violence in impoverished quarters of their own big cities.

Cars were set ablaze outside Brussels' main train station and in a working-class district of Berlin -- but officials in Belgium and Germany sought Monday to play down the risk of the kind of violence that France has experienced since October 27.

Britain saw rioting last month in the central England city of Birmingham, sparked by racial tension between members of the Afro-Caribbean and South Asian communities over the alleged rape of a 14-year-old black girl by an Asian man.

Across the continent, officials acknowledged that poverty and the poor integration of Europe's growing immigrant populations may be feeding disillusionment in the cities' poorer quarters.

European leaders said it was time to look closely at immigration and integration policies.

"There are terrible living conditions and unhappiness -- (even) where everybody is Italian," said Romano Prodi, the center-left's candidate to oppose Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi in elections next spring. Poverty, unemployment and urban decay could spark violence in Italy as well, he said in a newspaper interview.

Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini, a key Berlusconi ally, shot back that Prodi's remarks caused unnecessary alarm.

And Wolfgang Schaeuble, a conservative tapped as Chancellor-designate Angela Merkel's interior minister, told the Bild daily newspaper that Germany cannot be compared to France and its sprawling, decrepit housing projects.

"The conditions in France are different from the ones we have," Schaeuble said. "We don't have these gigantic high-rise projects that they have on the edges of French cities."

Schaeuble cautioned, however, that "we have to improve integration, particularly of young people. That means above all that they must master the German language."

An immigration law that took effect in January aims to integrate newcomers to Germany, making German-language and civics courses obligatory for them.

Others, however, saw the rioting in low-income Paris suburbs as evidence that European immigration policies don't work.

Heinz-Christian Strache, leader of Austria's rightist, xenophobic Freedom Party, called on Austrian leaders to stop immigration and implement integration measures that would prevent "French conditions" from emerging in his country.

Domenico De Masi, a sociologist at Rome's La Sapienza university, said growing income differences make it likely that violence will reach Italian cities as well.

"All the elements are there. It's easier to explain why it should happen instead of why it doesn't happen," he said.

Russian Communist Party chief Gennady Zyuganov said Monday that Russia -- coping with its own rising racial tension -- could see similar rioting.

"I am convinced that something like what we are now seeing in France could happen here, but on an even greater scale and with even more dramatic consequences," Zyuganov said, according to Interfax.

"When the makeup of the population changes so fundamentally during a short period of time, its new members cannot adapt overnight."

The Swedish tabloid Expressen said in an editorial that the trouble in Paris is of an "all-European relevance."

"We have difficulties accepting that people come to us from far away," the tabloid said. "It is like the humble staff at a luxury hotel would suddenly take up quarters with their richest habituÄes. They should know their places, a dark undercurrent in the collective European consciousness says."

The French unrest began after the deaths of two teenagers of north African descent. They were accidentally electrocuted as they hid from police in a power station, apparently thinking they were being chased.

The violence since has fanned into a nationwide challenge of French authority from youths, including young Arabs and Africans -- many of them European-born -- riled by high unemployment and discrimination.

Turkish Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan said France had ignored Ankara's calls for more tolerance, citing France's ban on head scarves in public schools.

"We've always told our friends in Europe that they should not lead to a clash of civilizations in order to prevent such incidents," daily Hurriyet quoted Erdogan as saying during a visit Sunday to Germany.

"We should work for an alliance between civilizations. There is a great duty which falls on the Christian and Muslim world. Europe should have evaluated this," Erdogan said. "We said it. But France did not take it into account. It did not listen to us."

Abdelkarim Carrasco, a leader of Spain's estimated 1 million-member Muslim community, said he does not envision the same kind of violence in his country because the proportion of poor North African Muslims is much smaller.

But he said the French experience posed a key test for all of Europe.

"Either Europe develops and supports the idea of a mixed culture, or Europe has no future," he said. "Europe has to learn from what the United States has done: It is a country that has taken in people from all over the world."

What you think about the bit in bold (not the title )?

Is it a thing what usually happens in Brussels (like binge drinking in the UK)?

[SPQR 0]

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/07/europe.fears.ap/

Quote[/b] ]Fears of riots spreading in Europe

...

Turkish Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan said France had ignored Ankara's calls for more tolerance, citing France's ban on head scarves in public schools.

"We've always told our friends in Europe that they should not lead to a clash of civilizations in order to prevent such incidents," daily Hurriyet quoted Erdogan as saying during a visit Sunday to Germany.

"We should work for an alliance between civilizations. There is a great duty which falls on the Christian and Muslim world. Europe should have evaluated this," Erdogan said. "We said it. But France did not take it into account. It did not listen to us."

Tayyip Erdogan 'b take care of his own tolerant shit with the kurds, the armenians, Chypra....

Moreover, as arsons kept going last night in spite of all the religious leaders' soothing words and the UOIF's fatwa, it would rather tend to proove that the riots aren't related to Islam.

Even the third boy, the one survivor of the power pylon area incident, from his hospital bed, asked for things calmed down...

[Necromancer- 0]

Quote[/b] ]"Either Europe develops and supports the idea of a mixed culture, or Europe has no future," he said. "Europe has to learn from what the United States has done: It is a country that has taken in people from all over the world."

Technically... this idea does not work..

What should happen, is that cultures merge with eachother.

[iNeo 0]

What should happen, is that cultures merge with eachother.

Should? That sucks, cause it's the end of our cultures and the beginning of a rootless one.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]"Either Europe develops and supports the idea of a mixed culture, or Europe has no future," he said. "Europe has to learn from what the United States has done: It is a country that has taken in people from all over the world."

Technically... this idea does not work..

What should happen, is that cultures merge with eachother.

And is'nt that excatly what has happened in the USA?

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]"Either Europe develops and supports the idea of a mixed culture, or Europe has no future," he said. "Europe has to learn from what the United States has done: It is a country that has taken in people from all over the world."

Technically... this idea does not work..

What should happen, is that cultures merge with eachother.

And is'nt that excatly what has happened in the USA?

Just because cultures are different, it does not automatically mean they must contradict.

Yet some cultures do contradict by definition. That's the difference.

[igor drukov 0]

What to do, then ? Forfeit our right to know what's going on, and ask the journalists to pull out. Violence will abate if the rioters are not the focus of attention anymore.

The uprising of violence in school has existed way before the "media show" , as a teacher you already should know that.

Those riots are certainly growing because of the "media show", but it had no need of a camera filming people for it to happen.

When i was 12/13 years old , there was already racket in colleges , there was already people beating other in reunion, and that was -20 years ago-, the media guys were not doing their show none talked about it on the tv.

So better let it happen , pretending it does not exist like the media did 20 years earlier ?

I totally agree with you, and my post was not clear on that : I was specifically speaking, not generally. I really believe that a lot of kids relish running the headlines worldwide.

On the other hand, we've known about this for 20 years as you say, and no good has come of it (not that it's the media's fault, though ).

Sure they are lost, that's an evidence, sure there is a need of education of the ones that are not lost, that's another evidence, but the problem does not disappear when you say "oh they are lost anyways".

So what to do of those "16 years old" and more that have failed in following a complete legal cursus (as i don't even talk about going to university, just of the 16 years of education forced by the law) ?

Because until now, no french politician has answered this question, and it is supposed to be their job, you know.

Once again, a personal opinion, and I really hope I am wrong : we can't save them. But we have got to be trying anyway.

As I have already said, I only see death, addiction or prison as a future for them.

Conquer a country in behalf of your civilisation, build things there but oppress its people, get kicked out of it, call them to your country to do menial tasks, cram them into squalid spaces, give them your nationality as a bone to bite, implement bankrupt-bound policies while systematically undermining any source of authority for the sake of it, tell the very sons and daughters of the people you called when you needed them that they are of "immigrant origins" rather than of the nationality which on the other hand you're so proud to say you've given them, spice it all up a little by enforcing repressive drug policies that guarantee steady illegal incomes and that flush honesty and merit down the toilet and you get what we have here.

Yeah lets blame ourselves because after we got kicked out of Africa they started their own civil wars and torned their countries into pre historic land.

Lets blame ourselves because we received them in our countries and gave them the oportunity to do something with their lives, to raise and educate their children instead of having them play soccer in minefields, die of disease or starvation, or being recruited to die in war at the age of 10.

Its all our fault that when we try to integrate people in our neighbour hoods to stop the ghettos crime and insecurity rises and people who care about their families leave. Its our sons and daughters fault too so thats why its ok for them to be robbed, beaten and afraid to go to school.

We are all a bunch of racists afterall right? .

Many of them just take their citizenship for granted and choose the easy way, trust me i know this from RL experience, our countries and people dont mean nothing to many of these who have no society values, no respect for anything or anyone, what is happening now proves it perfectly.

Wanna talk about integration, the US have a good perception of this, i heard if you fuck up they will kick your ass outa there even if you are born there (3 generations i think?), thats good motivation for social integration imo, would make wonders over here.

Oh and i do have plenty of friends from "imigrant origin" who work for a living and take good care of their families, maybe because their good men and just give a damn or understand how things are in their countries of origin so they apretiate the chances they get.

You will only have a good perception of what things can turn out to be when your girlfriend gets beaten up in the subway because of a cell phone and you already heard of dozens of cases like this and worse, when its not safe to go out at night anymore in some urban areas, when groups of hundreds storm a beach to rob people or when a supermarket has to close its doors because people are robbing everything they can.

Thats whats happening in my country, add all these social problems to the current finacial instability and it doesnt look good at all.

European countries definetly need to revise their migration policy.This whole incident was a bomb waiting for detonation but at this time it might be too late .

This spell of ranting is utterly ludicrous, and reeks of racist implicatures. Had you bothered to read the post that you pretend to reply to, you would have found that it contains two parts. Let's make it simple :

Part I (the one you quoted) : What I say to people that say the immigrants should go "home". What I say to people like you.

Part II :What I say to people that more or less think what you wish I were thinking.

Conclusion :Things are quite complicated, but what matters most is education, which is a parameter disconnected from ethnic origins.

Quoting things without referring to their context is intellectually dishonest.

[Necromancer- 0]

What should happen, is that cultures merge with eachother.

Should? That sucks, cause it's the end of our cultures and the beginning of a rootless one.

What I actually mean is that the culture of relatively smaller groups of immigrants (less than 5% of the indigenous population) just "dissolve" in the culture of the indigenous country.

This does not mean that the immigrant culture is completely gone, but only compatible aspects of that culture remain. Sometimes it even enriches the indigenous culture with stuff like the cuisine, fashion and hands-on knowledges about that foreign culture for the indigenous people.

This is currently happening in Europe, but the segregating immigrants are throwing salt in the water.

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ]French PM announces raft of measures for riot-hit poor suburbs

11.08.2005, 11:47 AM

http://www.forbes.com/finance/feeds/afx/2005/11/08/afx2324420.html

----by Marc Burleigh ----

PARIS (AFX) - Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin unveiled a raft of social and economic measures designed to improve conditions in France's tough, low-income neighbourhoods that have spawned unrest raging across the country.

The initiatives -- outlined before parliament the same day the government approved powers to declare a state of emergency in specified regions of the country -- aim to reduce chronically high unemployment in those suburbs, provide better education and address entrenched racism.

'Our collective responsibility is to make difficult areas the same sort of territory as others in the republic,' Villepin said.

But he added that 'the reestablishment of public order is a prerequisite' to the measures being implemented -- something he admitted would 'take some time.'

The intiatives are:

- the creation of an anti-discrimination agency with special officials appointed to be in charge of certain regions, and making the fight against discrimination a national priority;

- 20,000 job contracts with local government bodies or associations paid a minimum wage would be reserved for those in the suburbs struggling to find work;

- an extra 100 million euros (120 million dollars) for associations that work in the neighbourhoods;

- 5,000 more teaching assistant posts in the 1,200 schools in districts designated as troublespots;

- the creation of 15 more special economic zones that provide tax breaks to companies that set up inside them as an incentive to boost local employment.

Villepin also said 'social imbalances due to an insufficiently controlled flow of clandestine immigration' would be tackled.

Many of the areas affected by the initiatives are impoverished districts on the periphery of cities and towns populated predominantly by families which immigrated from France's former colonial possessions in Africa.

The youths perpetrating the violence that has gripped the country since October 27 are mostly drawn from the large Muslim communities that live in the neighbourhoods.

They have complained that, though often born in France, they endure racial discrimination when looking for work, have poor-quality education and few economic options other than to participate in the trade in drugs and stolen goods that is rife.

[Heatseeker 0]

This spell of ranting is utterly ludicrous, and reeks of racist implicatures. Had you bothered to read the post that you pretend to reply to, you would have found that it contains two parts. Let's make it simple :

Part I (the one you quoted) : What I say to people that say the immigrants should go "home". What I say to people like you.

Part II :What I say to people that more or less think what  you wish I were thinking.

Conclusion :Things are quite complicated, but what matters most is education, which is a parameter disconnected from ethnic origins.

Ok then, when a bunch of marginals set your car on fire or stab your wife for a couple of €'s go ahead and try to educate them, your solution about education might prove worthy for future generations but it wont solve current social problems.

Education might be disconected from ethnical origins but its also a matter of having personal or individual values, not all uneducated people will comit criminal and violent acts. There is just no excuse and it cant be tolerated!

Its easy to speak when your family and friends havent been afected both monetarily and physically by criminal gangs of "imigrant origins", how are you gonna educate a 20/25 year old person? What solutions do you propose? What should be done to educate and integrate these people in our society and values?

We have imigrants over here who never heard about work nor taxes and have been here for 20+ years, yet they complain about small pensions, its disgusting to me that these people didnt even educate their children properly!

Tell me about solutions please, because the polititians have failed, again...

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Go home in the name of Allah, order imams with megaphones

By Charles Bremner

BEARDED Muslim activists have been wading into the night-time mayhem of the housing estates, megaphone in hand, and addressing the rioters “in the name of Allahâ€.

Far from inciting the violence, they have been urging the rioting teenagers to stop destroying property and go home. For the Government, the Muslim mediators have been playing a useful role calming youngsters from the mainly Arab estates who respect their authority far more than that of the police and local officials.

However, the Muslim mentors, who style themselves “big brothersâ€, are also causing unease in France because they symbolise what many see as a root of the unrest: the isolation of the ethnic Arab and black minorities into ghettos where Muslim law and outlook prevails. There is also a widespread belief — denied by the authorities — that the unrest is being fostered by the Islamists.

The mediators were bolstered yesterday by a fatwa issued by one of the main Muslim organisations, the Union of Islamic Organisations of France, quoting the Koran as saying that “God abhors destruction and disorder and rejects those who inflict itâ€.

The fatwa sparked a dispute with the mainstream Muslim Council, which said that the edict equated Islam with the current vandalism.

Some on Left and Right were angered when police withdrew one evening last week from Clichy-sous-Bois, where the rioting started, in order to let Muslims keep the peace. “The supposed mediation of big brothers crying out Allahu Akbar (God is Greatest) is one sign among many of the capitulation of the legitimate authorities,†said Bruno Gollnisch, a senior figure in Jean-Marie Le Pen’s National Front party.

Non-Muslim mediators who are active on the estates also disapprove of the presence of the Islamic brothers as peace-keepers. Magid Tabouri, 29, who leads a team of municipal, secular, big brothers at Bondy, in the troubled Seine-Saint-Denis département, said: “It is a scandal that they have asked imams to calm down the kids. You can’t apply a religious response to a social revolt.â€

The authorities are also concerned because many of the estate militants are part of the radical networks who preach the extremist cause and recruit potential jihadists, according to police.

A street version of radical Islam permeates the youth culture of the estates, where Osama bin Laden is a hero, George Bush and Israel are evil and President Chirac’s State wants to stifle their religion and identity by banning Muslim headscarves in schools.

The young wreckers refer to one another as brothers and they cite the “disrespect†of the State for their religion as part of the origin of their revolt.

The chief target is Nicolas Sarkozy, the tough-talking Interior Minister, who has so far refused to apologise for an incident in which a police teargas grenade was thrown into a Clichy mosque.

However, the radicals are not behind the present violence, say experts such as the Renseignements Généraux, the police intelligence service that keeps close tabs on the prayer rooms and mosques on the estates. Yves Bot, the Paris chief prosecutor, said that the attacks were co-ordinated locally among the young wreckers using mobile telephones and text messages but there was no central command.

The Muslim mediators are exploiting the unrest to enhance their authority among the alienated youths who go out to smash at night, say the police. “They are playing a clever game,†one police officer said. “They are preaching peace but profiting out of the mess to promote their ideology.â€

BLOGS OF HATE AND REVENGE

“Vive la France. F*** the French Government and f*** all the cops who hate the Muslims and Arabs. I am French, and I say yes to the riots, yes to Sarkozy’s resignation but no when we smoke the cars in our own neighbourhood. Instead of burning up the cars of our brothers, let’s torch the police station, the prefect’s office, the tax office, the cars in the 16th (prosperous district of Paris). Our only enemies are the Right, that ’s to say the rich.â€

“A thousand (burnt) cars just for Strasbourg — that would be nice, huh? We’re a little département and we’ve managed to do a massacre. Maybe you’ve broken our record but that’s cos you’re from a big département . . .â€

“You provincials are pathetic with your 15 burnt cars. Don’t try to imitate the ÃŽle de France (Paris region). We’re at 100-plus cars a night for each département!â€

“In my opinion we should be burning people. It’s funnier to see them running away when they’re on fire!â€

“France should be ashamed of its rotting police, France should be ashamed of itself with its incompetent Government. Sarkozy is the one who should be cleaned with Karcher (high-pressure water cleaner).â€

“You were born rich, you have a so-good life style, your schools are nice, your streets are clean, come and see reality in 93 (Département of Seine-Saint-Denis)â€

“Screw, devastate, burst, burn whatever you want. F**k France!â€

“To all départements of France: the real enemy is les poulets (police)â€

“We are young, we have nothing to lose. Nobody answers when we send a CV. Beware the youth, it is only the beginning!â€

“We will f**k this bastard Sarkosy and his policemen. Wake up all Paris suburbs!â€

Good luck, Europe!

[Ares1978 0]

Good luck, Europe!

France, not Europe.

People up here keep asking the same question: "Why aren't they doing anything about the riots?" It looks like there's a complete lack of decisiveness.

[Thunderbird 0]

When the situation will be under control then we should think about "HOW" would we deal with these people in order to HELP them and not to take them out!

So to understand riots, one must understand the causes of social rage, usually said to be racism, poverty, lack of economic opportunity, and why people who experience this rage manage it in such a destructive manner. The usual suspects include breakdown of the family, television, and a generalized cultural disorientation. France has to learn from its bordering neighbours and should be inspired by some of their social methods even if some of them totally go against the french mentality.

But one must make sacrifices and concessions in order to make advance things in the right way. you have to know that once it gets started, rioting is difficult to stop by authorities. we have to do our best with the goal to avoid such situations in the future.

Passiveness and no-political caring are delayed action bombs,though.

Best Regards

Thunderbird84

[SPQR 0]

Yes, we should strike hard'n fast, sending main battle tanks in the streets, snipers on the roof, and ATGW fired into enemy learders' home...

For sure, we have a lot to learn about peace keeping in urban areas from our israeli friends

Quote[/b] ]BLOGS OF HATE AND REVENGE

“Vive la France. F*** the French Government and f*** all the cops who hate the Muslims and Arabs. I am French, and I say yes to the riots, yes to Sarkozy’s resignation but no when we smoke the cars in our own neighbourhood. Instead of burning up the cars of our brothers, let’s torch the police station, the prefect’s office, the tax office, the cars in the 16th (prosperous district of Paris). Our only enemies are the Right, that ’s to say the rich.â€

“A thousand (burnt) cars just for Strasbourg — that would be nice, huh? We’re a little département and we’ve managed to do a massacre. Maybe you’ve broken our record but that’s cos you’re from a big département . . .â€

“You provincials are pathetic with your 15 burnt cars. Don’t try to imitate the ÃŽle de France (Paris region). We’re at 100-plus cars a night for each département!â€

“In my opinion we should be burning people. It’s funnier to see them running away when they’re on fire!â€

“France should be ashamed of its rotting police, France should be ashamed of itself with its incompetent Government. Sarkozy is the one who should be cleaned with Karcher (high-pressure water cleaner).â€

“You were born rich, you have a so-good life style, your schools are nice, your streets are clean, come and see reality in 93 (Département of Seine-Saint-Denis)â€

“Screw, devastate, burst, burn whatever you want. F**k France!â€

“To all départements of France: the real enemy is les poulets (police)â€

“We are young, we have nothing to lose. Nobody answers when we send a CV. Beware the youth, it is only the beginning!â€

“We will f**k this bastard Sarkosy and his policemen. Wake up all Paris suburbs!â€

Is this shit really representative of all young suburban rioting inabitants ?

Do you negociate about social politics with bunch of 12-16 years old kids ?

Would it be representative of french public opinion if he braindead white complexion nazi boy though and wrote in his own stenching blog :

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, kill all those devilish bastards, rip their throat and spread their guts on the paveway in front of their parents, in the same of Jesus Christ, our Sacred Lord...

I'd rather tell you that he's deadly mad and should be arrested immediatly... as some of those arson bloggers already got arrested.

[Thunderbird 0]

Quote[/b] ]For sure, we have a lot to learn about peace keeping in urban areas from our israeli friends

LMAO.

[Ares1978 0]

Yes, we should strike hard'n fast, sending main battle tanks in the streets, snipers on the roof, and ATGW fired into enemy learders' home...

Nah, let them riot. Soon they'll get tired of it and just go home.

[billybob2002 0]

Yes, we should strike hard'n fast, sending main battle tanks in the streets, snipers on the roof, and ATGW fired into enemy learders' home...

Nah, let them riot. Soon they'll get tired of it and just go home.

Yeah! Let them:

-torch houses of worship.

-torch those cars.

-beat people up and commit murder.

-burn down those businesses.

Anyway, guess who popped up....

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/09/D8DP49IO3.html

Quote[/b] ]

Le Pen said people with immigrant backgrounds who commit crimes should be stripped of their French nationality and sent "back to their country of origin."

Reminded that the vast majority of youths taking part in the arson and rioting are French, born in France to immigrant parents, he said: "What does that mean? Are they French because they have a French identity card?"

French nationality should be given only to those who ask for it and "who are worthy of it," he said. "Those who got nationality automatically, who don't consider themselves French and who even say publicly that they consider France their enemy should not be treated as French."

Oh boy..