European Politics Thread.

[NSX 8]

Right position, otk-member. Guess all people, who wish Kosovo "good luck" with their "independence" just live in stable regions without danger of being split into several dwarwish states. C'mon, don't think only 'bout yourself. At least, do you know history of Kosovo? It's cradle of serbian culture and it's stupidity to cut out cultural heart of serbian nation from body of their country.

P.S.: Keep up your work on thematic missions, guys! Good way to prove your point of view.

[-Snafu- 78]

What the way for Russia?

Possible, first of all, we shall recognize independence of Abhazia, South Ossetia, Prednestrovie. Than we will set a question for recognize independence of Northern Ireland, the Spanish Basques, Turkish Chyprus and other, other...

N.Ireland is a completely different situation to Kosovo. You cannot not compare the two. Like NSXr said, know it's history first.

[xawery 0]

Merkel sent a clear message to all would-be states that Kosovo is a unique case and cannot be seen as a precedent.

A while ago I had the chance to talk to the Serbian ambassador here in the Netherlands. Naturally, I mentioned the Serbian politician who suggested the use of military force should Kosovo declare independence. Boy, I've never seen someone try so frantically to convince me that something wasn't true, haha. Well, there were already some empty bottles of beer on his table, but still

[otk-member 0]

N.Ireland is a completely different situation to Kosovo. You cannot not compare the two. Like NSXr said, know it's history first.

Really? In what a difference? Northern Ireland in 1921, by a counterfeit referendum has been attached to England. Ethic irish peoples in IRA fighting for independence. Englishmen hunt on them and independence of Ireland interfere.

What such especial in Northern Ireland?

Lets help a Northern Ireland be free and democratic country

Irish peoples didnt englishman peoples genocide, respect a laws and want a living in free and peace country.

You, at all do not understand that incident from Kosovo can concern directly all your conflicts and will entail splash in separatism of small ethic groups all over the world.

About history - i know it. But you, for an example, you know a history of Chechnia? Especially about the periods 1944-1945, and 1991-1994? Before war? Do you know about russians genocide? No, i guess. And one more thing.

The territory which refers to today as the Chechen Republic, never belonged to Chechens. They have lodged there only in the end of 18-th century. Under the sanction of Russian. Chechens were mountain people and their basic employment there was a robbery of trading caravans between Russia and Georgia. First in mountains, then on plains. Russian have created fortresses along trading ways. One of which was a fortress "Groznaya"(Terrible). Now there city Grozny.

But europeans, especially englishmen, constantly us learn how WE should live in OUR house. They speak us: give the Chechen Republic independence! Change your constitution! For what to it independence? For a genocide of Russian? No way!

The same is absolutely at Serbs. But to us were frightened to climb, as we have a nuclear weapon and serious army. Serbs to bomb did not hesitate. Though they defended the sovereignty. The facts of a genocide of Albanians in general are forged from video of 1991. And on video - Croatia.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Merkel sent a clear message to all would-be states that Kosovo is a unique case and cannot be seen as a precedent.

Well, taking into account that there had been another "unique case" called East Timor, looks like there'll be alot of "unique cases", each case being unique indeed...

Indeed, we shall next see the "unique case" of the Basques, then the "unique case" of Abkhazia, South Ossetia and the "unique case" of turkish Cyprus...

[Radnik 18]

hmm...from where to start?!

This is just a result, a cruel culmination and reality of so badly Serbian politic in past decades. Kosovo was lost in 1999 when NATO entered on our soil with no Serbian police force nor army were not alowed...which led Serbs migration to Serbia.

In my opnion they(everyone but army and police) shouldnt have to leave their homes, they made same mistake as Serbs in Croatia...again, reality was independent Croatia and now independent Kosovo.

They left properties like houses and other holdings and came to Serbia where they were not so welcomed like they expected and promised!. Nobody was thinking that now they are big heavy rock on country's back.

Where they are going to live, were will they work, who will take care all of them?!...you know, Serbia is not big as Rusia.

On the other side in order to improve their economic state they sell properties where Albanians dont ask for price!, logicaly of course!, that way they are shure no Serbs are coming back.

Same as in Croatia, that's why they want to make so bad sitiation for Serbs just to speedup time when Serb have to finaly sell their homes.

We just can't deal with truth, i see it now. Part of citizens keep calling Kosovo a fake state yet Kosovo is recognized rapidly by many countries. Shure it hurts, it hurts me when I see Albanian flag in Pristina!, but its reality and I have to learn how to deal with it.

And i cant fight with it by not beliveing in something which is actualy happening.

We dont have a politic support from a single state, of course, noone will eat our shits for us. Europe is tired of Serbia!. We cant deal it with entering in another war that would leave Serbia in melting down state and complete maddness of its citizens!.

We were aware of Kosovo problem long time ago, of course, large growing population of Kosovo Albanians and on the other side poor economic state of Serbs, since 70's. But goverment had been pretendig blind thinking it will resolve by it self!.

From any point of view its our defeat for shure, in both teritorial loss and for those people who live there now. And if we have Kosovo back in our control...who will control it and with what?,

...but

Europe has a big problem with Albanian mafia, and all other organized criminal across it. If Kosovo was some sort of a part of Serbia, and since Serbia wont be in EU for 10 years for sure, it would be harded to control it.

This way all EU countries have a legal, recognized state where to extract their problems...buisniss, chiled mafia, macros, pimps, terorists!

I dont use english offen so maybe i write with errors and confusing so sorry.

...i'm at work at the moment and i cant write anymore but i'll continue later.

I have a strange feeling denoir will come out of somewere

edit:

It's cradle of serbian culture and it's stupidity to cut out cultural heart of serbian nation from body of their country.

We did that!, by our negligence in resolving problems and facing reality. We entered into battle in 1999 with NATO and if we in some case won, it would be different story now.

And if we were in some other case u.s.a. we could deal with it easily, with no UN or other World organizations...after all we protect our interest on Kosovo!.

Dont get me wrong, i still think EU is not an angel! :-)

[otk-member 0]

@Radnik

Sorry for 1999... People was really want to help your country, but our goverment...

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Kosovo was lost in 1999 when NATO entered on our soil with no Serbian police force nor army were not alowed...which led Serbs migration to Serbia.

I guess Serbia lost every voice they ever had when committing the warcrimes and massacres they have been found guilty of. Killing civillians isn´t that smart if you want to stay in that area. Slaughtering and executing them in thousands, imprisoning and deporting them is not so smart either. The strong support the serbian war-criminals still have among the serbian population is baffling to me. They are treated like heros, still they are nothing more than a shit. Even worse than shit. Serbia is a strange country imo. On onw hand they have very open minded young people and on the other hand there are diehard nationalists who don´t have a problem with the massacres that happened and furthermore support the murderers by hiding them and misleading the ICC personel. This goes up way to the top of the current serbian leadership and the path they currently chose will only isolate serbia furthermore. It will be a very unpleasant place for serbia if it keeps going like that and you shouldn´t rely on any help coming from russia other than verbal support. Russia makes big business with the EU countries, much more than with serbia and that´s why they will keep their support "civilized".

I feel absolutely nothing for serbian people who are now forced to move on. Blame it on your government of that time who started a war and committed numerous crimes in the name of the serbian people. Blame it on the ongoing support those monsters still have and blame it on a nationalistic complex some serbs seem to share.

If you loose a war, you have to go. It´s always been like that.

Quote[/b] ]The facts of a genocide of Albanians in general are forged from video of 1991

This has to be the biggest bullshit I ever read.

You certainly want to get your facts straight.

[otk-member 0]

Balschoiw

Serbia - not the strange country. We very well understand them and we understand that they feel. And they feel a shame. A shame that have interfered with their internal business and have selected at them a part of the native land. And they can make nothing. Slavs - peaceful people. And time there were any retaliatory operations against Albanians - means Albanians have deserved it. Even more terrible atrocities in relation to Serbs.

Which people you consider as military criminals, are considered as heroes that have incured courage of equivalent revenge. And to be the avenger - it is very heavy. The justification of the actions is necessary, differently it is possible to go mad. And the justification was that Muslim Albanians did with orthodox Serbs. I again shall result for example the Chechen Republic. Want I shall quote certificates of Russian refugees? It will be for certain very similar to that that Albanians do.

Ok.. Is few of more, more, more..

Quote[/b] ]" On August, 7th, 1994 the fellow worker.. with the wife the armed gangsters have grasped. On August, 9th its wife have released, it has told, that them beat, пытали, demanded the repayment, it have released behind money. On September, 5th, 1994 the spoiled corpse have found in area of chemical combine ".

" In October, 1993 ours the employee (1955, the sender of trains, have raped about 18 hours directly at station and have beaten some person. During same time have raped the dispatcher by name Light (1964 р.). The militia has talked to criminals in the Chechen language and has released them ".

" In 1992 have raped and have shot., 1960 ú.p., mother of three juvenile children. Have killed neighbours, the elderly husband and the wife, that children have sent things (container) to Russia. The Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Chechen Republic refused to search for criminals ".

" In the beginning 1993 in Grozny have crushed warehouses with the weapon, armed. Reached that children went to school with the weapon. Establishments, schools were closed. In the middle of March, 1993 of three armed Chechens have rushed into an apartment of neighbours, have taken away valuable things. Witnessed in October, 1993 of murder of the young guy to which directly have ripped up a stomach "

" In August, 1993 in Grozny when I went with the daughter along the street, among white day the Chechen has seized the daughter (1980 р.), has struck me, has dragged it in the car and has taken away. In two hours it has come back home, has told, that it have raped. Russian humiliated with all ways. In particular, in Terrible at the House of a press the poster hung: " Russian, do not leave, slaves are necessary to us."

http://conrad2001.narod.ru/russian/genocide/genocide_1.htm

It was probable to the same Kosovo. And, that worst of all, probably still will be.

Probably the nearest years the Europe at last will understand that to some people it is impossible to apply human rights and tolerance. Yes-yes, I speak about your migrants. They already arrange revolts. In France, Denmark... When more than 30 % of the population of the Europe become Muslim migrants - the cheerful life will begin and at you.

This has to be the biggest bullshit I ever read.

You certainly want to get your facts straight.

Even pair a photo of mass burial places give. And with proofs of that that on a photo - a burial place of Albanians. For the beginning. And that fairy tales of refugees which have felt that in the Europe it is possible to be arranged not bad - me do not impress.

[klavan 0]

This is just another messy situation, rised up from a historically tormented region.

I hope this is will be the last Balkanian drama at least, both for kosovians and serbs.

@otk-member

Sorry but I can't agree with you: a genocide will never justify another genocide in my eyes.

Here in Italy there are still some open wounds about what's happened to our people in Dalmatia during and after WW2 but that's it: sometimes you found yourself just on the worng side of the trench and sometimes you're just wrong. That's our case at that time and that's your too in 1999.

Klavan

[Sheps 0]

My stance on the whole Kosovo thing is that its wrong.

My fiancé was born in Belgrade and spent a lot of her child hood all over Serbia, including Kosovo + Krajina (She lost her home in the Croatian operation to take Krajina)

Anyway, this is what she told me, that a lot of Albanians pretty much migrated into Kosovo, illegally mostly, it was pretty much a Civilian invasion, but thats when friction started and the Albanians and Serbs started killing each other, of course i don't know a lot about this as my woman only told me the Albanians killing people and pretty much terrorizing the Serbs who quickly became the minority, obviously it was a two sided affair but you get the idea.

But Nato stepped in and pretty much stopped the Serb army from moving out the Albanians by bombing them.

I mean, if a huge bunch of scots moved in newcastle, should newcastle become a Scottish city? Hell naw.

At the end of the day, this is being used by the "Coalition of the willing" to pretty much initiate a war on Russia, Bush wouldn't care if it wasn't rubbing dirt in the face of Russia, who we all know we are on tenderhooks with.

90% sure there WILL be a military operation by Serbia backed by Russia to forcefully take back Kosovo, then Nato and the Americans will get involved. Its Inevitable.

[klavan 0]

90% sure there WILL be a military operation by Serbia backed by Russia to forcefully take back Kosovo, then Nato and the Americans will get involved. Its Inevitable.

Forget it. Noone wants another war in Europe, not the NATO and not the russian president. There aren't enough economic interests in that area to start WW3.

[Sheps 0]

90% sure there WILL be a military operation by Serbia backed by Russia to forcefully take back Kosovo, then Nato and the Americans will get involved. Its Inevitable.

Forget it. Noone wants another war in Europe, not the NATO and not the russian president. There aren't enough economic interests in that area to start WW3.

Nothing to do with economics or anything of the sort, its all about power, Serbia doesn't want to look like an idiot to have their own province taken from them.

And the fact that G W has been rubbing it in Russia's face is enough, that plus the whole missile thing is just another insult in the face of Putin.

At the end of the day, Kosovo is nothing to fight over, but when your closet enemy is seen to have one over on you, its never good your reputation as a leader.

[MehMan 0]

Sorry but I can't agree with you: a genocide will never justify another genocide in my eyes.

Here in Italy there are still some open wounds about what's happened to our people in Dalmatia during and after WW2

Eeekk. STOP!

You do know Italians had camps and were occupiers ALONG with Nazi Germany? Once you recognize the death camps Italians set up we can talk about what happened to your people.

I say yay for Kosovo. I don't think they belong under Serbia.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

AND, one World War already started over a regicide in the Balkans, so this may be seen as a perfect excuse to go at each other's throats again...

[kmossco 9]

In my humble opinion Kosovo shouldn't get its independence.

Firstly there are no "unique cases". I talk specially due to my spanish neighbours. If Kosovo is declared independent at least 2 regions may also strive to declare independence. Galicia and País Basco.

This will install the chaos (imho) among all states that strive for independence, I talk also about the Kurdistan, Ossetia, Chechnya, etc...

Now tell me, cultural and historical facts apart, how can those small regions support themselves economically enough to not depend on their former "owners"? And military so they don't get occupied?

Kosovo has their infrastructures still damaged, roads destroyed, some towns only have electricity a few hours a day and an unemployment rate of 45% (70% in the youngsters) where 1 in each 10 people suffer from famine. Is this a viable economy?

Some economic analists think so, as a new independence would open new trades and Kosovo has some stockpiles of raw materials like coal.

But I rather wait and see what is the reaction of the most important oponent to this, Serbia. I do not know much about/understand the region culture and their people so I won't extend more my opinion to facts I do not know.

I am also eager to know what will Portugal say...counting that Galicia will also want to know as they count much on our "opinion" in their struggle.

[Necromancer- 0]

I find no ethnic region within a 1000 km radius from the EU borders worthy of calling "independance".. It is an utter form of mass stupidity. Within 20 years the regions/countries within that radius will get a chance of becoming a EU member. If Kosovo and Serbia obtain EU-membership, they both have to open up their borders for each other.. So practically they go back to the situation before Kosovo called it's independance.

Therefor any form of nationalism of any country is soooo <1970.. It is outdated, because the world is a lot smaller these days. People are getting much more interconnected, because of the internet. More and more people are getting less one-sided biased, because you read other people's opinions from different states around the world.

If every person on the world has internet, the world could be a lot more peaceful.

[otk-member 0]

@otk-member

Sorry but I can't agree with you: a genocide will never justify another genocide in my eyes.

It only because you it did not felt it on youself. And when you or your family will felt it on youself - you will justify both a genocide and executions and even gas chambers.

Believe to me.

[Sennacherib 0]

please, please, this is important to know the past. but the future is more important.

ww2 was a bullshit, we must keep the lessons of that. but now we must build the future, for us and for the next generation.

us, the young generations must have an opened mind, and work together.

Quote[/b] ]Therefor any form of nationalism of any country is soooo <1970.. It is outdated, because the world is a lot smaller these days. People are getting much more interconnected, because of the internet.

false, internet has developed the national feelings. why? because as you said the world is smal and peoples don't want to disappear in the world village with a unique language and culture. And internet is a great tool to keep alive cultures and share them with the world.

with internet my region in france can promote its culture even in Japan.

[klavan 0]

Sorry but I can't agree with you: a genocide will never justify another genocide in my eyes.

Here in Italy there are still some open wounds about what's happened to our people in Dalmatia during and after WW2

Eeekk. STOP!

You do know Italians had camps and were occupiers ALONG with Nazi Germany? Once you recognize the death camps Italians set up we can talk about what happened to your people.

I say yay for Kosovo. I don't think they belong under Serbia.

Did you read the entire post? I said we were wrong, like the serbs in 1999.

Don't try to teach me the history of my country.

Klavan

[MehMan 0]

Oh crap sorry, I was really tired when I wrote that post so my mind didn't read it to the end.

Sorry!

[-Snafu- 78]

Quote[/b] ]Really? In what a difference? Northern Ireland in 1921, by a counterfeit referendum has been attached to England. Ethic irish peoples in IRA fighting for independence. Englishmen hunt on them and independence of Ireland interfere.

What such especial in Northern Ireland?

Lets help a Northern Ireland be free and democratic country

Irish peoples didnt englishman peoples genocide, respect a laws and want a living in free and peace country.

Ireland was partitioned because the majority of the people in the North did not want to leave the Union. The Irish Free State also agreed to the treaty and the majority of its people supported this. (The Irish Free State would later become the Republic of Ireland).

Quote[/b] ]The central aim of the IRA is to end British control of Northern Ireland and to achieve the reunification of the island of Ireland.

From here http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/iorgan.htm

As you can clearly see the IRA are not fighting for the independence of Northern Ireland.

It's not English it's British. England does not = Britain.  

Ireland is special because of the situation it's in, it's culture, identity, religous factors etc. make it completely different from Kosovo.

Northern Ireland is already a free society.

Northern Ireland is already a democratic country.

What genocide?

You also seem to think that the various paramilitaries fighting for a united republic frolicked through fields handing out teddy bears to kids while the British gunned them down.

      However during the Anglo-Irish War and the other conflicts the IRA would kill anyone one that didn't fit in with their view of what Ireland should be, bomb civillian areas etc.

You also mentioned that Kosovo could lead to instabilities within our own states. Well the chances of the CNLA, SNLA and Welsh Paramilitaries initiating some sort of successful campaign because of Kosovo is incredibly slim.

[Baff1 0]

90% sure there WILL be a military operation by Serbia backed by Russia to forcefully take back Kosovo, then Nato and the Americans will get involved. Its Inevitable.

Forget it. Noone wants another war in Europe, not the NATO and not the russian president. There aren't enough economic interests in that area to start WW3.

There were enough to start WW1.

I don't especially forsee any war coming out of this one. Just another great big bill for the taxpayer.

[chops 111]

Seems strange that the EU is expanding, bringing down borders/barriers, now another one goes up.

Won't make much difference if both Serbia and Kosovo get into the EU at some point in the future.

I wonder how viable a state Kosovo will be?

I remember reading an article about East Timor where a few farmers admitted their standard of living was better under Indonesian rule and the sort of regretted independence.

[Sheps 0]

Its probably been done to death but i'd like to bring up the topic of Eastern Europeans working in the UK.

I live a rather small, but industrial town in Kent, generally there should be lots of work as the whole town is pretty much a high street and the rest of it are warehouses and factories.

For the second time I've lost work to Polish people, at first i didn't mind, i was all for it, from that viewpoint i was working, and didn't see a problem with them taking the work that was left over, but now, its taking the piss, the whole town is run by job agencies, and they are all corrupt as hell, as for the past 2 weeks I've been without work because the agencies gave the work to the Pols (they told me there wasn't any work, lying pricks) even though the manager prefers that i'd be there because i actually understand what he asks me to do, and they are obviously doing something illegal because i'm getting minimum wage, so they must be paying these guys less then that.

Im sick and tired of losing work to people who only come here for a year or couple months, its so frustrating, i was unemployed for a better part of 6 months and when i did finally get a job, the factory had only about 8 Brits and the rest were Eastern Euros.

I mean i thought it was bad enough that companies would up a leave the country to make workhouses cheaper in places like China, but now i can't even get a job in my own bloody country.

Whats worse is that the government does nothing about it, now if you get a job you better bloody hold on to it because if you slip a Eastern Euro would take you place in a nanosecond.

And im not exaggerating, my first job was when i was about 16, at a factory, so 4 years ago, and the place was pretty much all Brits from what i saw, then i went to Uni, dropped out, and about a year or two later, the new place i was working at, half of the people could barely speak English, then i lost that job as the factory was moving to china, then about a year or two later they rehire me, and alot of the people are still there, including the eastern euros who were now perm staff, and then again, you know what, thats all blah blah blah.

At the end of the day, I'm tired of this crap and something should be done about it without idiots having to say "vote BNP".