USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]But I find their choice of certain enviromental and animal rights groups interesting. Are they really such a domestic threat to be listed with Al Queda?    Are they more of a threat that they don't need to mention right-wing extremists? ELF may destroy construction sites that cut down trees, but is it a threat in the nature of car bombs or the like? None of ELF's or ALF's attacks have lead to deaths. Can you say that about the KKK, right wing militias and Al Queda?

So, they should not be investigated and not be wiped from the face of the planet because nobody died. Both groups are the "Al-Queda" of eco-terrorism.

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress02/jarboe021202.htm

Quote[/b] ]Coincidentally the 10th anniversary of oklahoma bombings was recently, wonder how much more damage right-wing/assault rifles for jesus groups have done when compared against some SUV vandalizing hippies.

First, he based his attack on the turner diaries (racist book) if you didn't know. Furthermore, what do assault rifles have to with a bombing in which the bomb was homemade. Again, those right wing/racists tend to be lone wolf and hard to catch but the F.B.I have been lucky a couple of times.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]NEWS From WIKI !

Guess I'll quit making jokes about Luxembourg!

Quote[/b] ]So, they should not be investigated and not be wiped from the face of the planet because nobody died. Both groups are the "Al-Queda" of eco-terrorism.

Eco-Terrorism is a bit of a misnomer, as it is not they who are reaking terror on the ecology. And they are not some different form of Al Queda, which is a ridiculous statement. You put ELF and Al Queda in the same level of threat to the US? Gimme a break. Those that perpetrate the crimes like Arson should be investigated and prosecuted, but to suggest that ELF warrants the same level of attention as sleeper cells is a bit much, let alone to list it is a "domestic terror threat" while at the same time ignoring nor even mentioning militias. Nor did they bother to mention abortion groups that have murdered doctors and bombed clinics.

Terry Nichols, McVey, Ruby Ridge, etc etc all have one thing in common and that is they belonged to a loose group known as a militia.

In case you missed it, there was a little incident with a right wing assault weapon hording religious group in Waco Texas. Right wing nut jobs are not produced in a vacuum. They almost always start in a group of some sort before turning "lone wolf," and those groups tend to be extremist groups. So yes. There is somewhere to start and investigate.

[kerosene 0]

Nobody missed it, its just that it happened about a decade ago.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Nobody missed it, its just that it happened about a decade ago.

Quote[/b] ] Furthermore, what do assault rifles have to with a bombing in which the bomb was homemade.

One of the reasons for the April 20th bombing was the April 19th FBI assualt.

(Some have suggested Hitler's birthday as well)

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Eco-Terrorism is a bit of a misnomer, as it is not they who are reaking terror on the ecology.   And they are not some different form of Al Queda, which is a ridiculous statement.  You put ELF and Al Queda in the same level of threat to the US? Gimme a break.  Those that perpetrate the crimes like Arson should be investigated and prosecuted, but to suggest that ELF warrants the same level of attention as sleeper cells is a bit much, let alone to list it is a "domestic terror threat" while at the same time ignoring nor even mentioning militias. Nor did they bother to mention abortion groups that have murdered doctors and bombed clinics.

FBI definition of eco-terrorism:

Quote[/b] ]“the use or threatened use of violence of a criminal nature against innocent victims or property by an environmentally-oriented, subnational group for environmental-political reasons, or aimed at an audience beyond the target, often of a symbolic nature.â€

Al-Queda is international terrorism and ELF/ALF and etc. is considered domestic terrorism. LE Agencies investigate the two differently. ELF/ALF commit more acts than any other domestic terror groups.

....

Quote[/b] ]In case you missed it, there was a little incident with a right wing assault weapon hording religious group in Waco Texas. Right wing nut jobs are not produced in a vacuum. They almost always start in a group of some sort before turning "lone wolf," and those groups tend to be extremist groups. So yes. There is somewhere to start and investigate.

And, they were burnt up by the ATF?  They were taken care of to say the least.

It is funny that you brought Ruby Ridge up because the ATF wanted to use Weaver has a infiltrator. The group that they wanted to use him for was sued to death by SPLC later on. Again, just because they talked about left-wing groups does not mean they don't monitor right-wing groups. ELF/AFL are just more active than those other groups.

Edit: A few months ago a racist (skinhead) group was busted in by LEOs.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]FBI definition of eco-terrorism:

As I said, a bit of a misnomer.

Quote[/b] ] ELF/ALF commit more acts than any other domestic terror groups.

Sure its easy to say that once you have classified them under such a broad term as "terrorist." By this definition, attacking and toppling the World Trade Center is no worse than an act of arson against a subdivision construction site. I didn't say what they did wasn't illegal. I said lumping ELF (who burns houses and hasn't killed anyone) with Al Queda (who targets the US government and its people and have killed scores of civilians and government personnel) is completely ludicrious.

And on the subject of the Memo, why was it necessary to point to Al Queda as a domestic threat? Did the Homland Security and the FBI forget that Al Queda is attacking the US? Do they need constant reminding? Why mention it in the same Memo as ELF? Are they afraid Al Queda and ELF will unite?

Quote[/b] ]And, they were burnt up by the ATF? They were taken care of to say the least.

Yep. Those women and children sure were "taken care of."

Quote[/b] ]Again, just because they talked about left-wing groups does not mean they don't monitor right-wing groups.

In any case its a moot point now, as ABC has a story detailing the investigations of right wing groups (like Aryan Nation and other neo-nazi groups) by the FBI.

EDIT: I think you are missing my point. I'm not saying the FBI doesn't arrest or investigate right wing groups, I'm wondering why ELF was mentioned with Al Queda in a "list of domestic terror groups" where more destructive and dangerous groups were not.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]EDIT: I think you are missing my point. I'm not saying the FBI doesn't arrest or investigate right wing groups, I'm wondering why ELF was mentioned with Al Queda in a "list of domestic terror groups" where more destructive and dangerous groups were not.

Isn't arson considered dangerous? Isn't 70 million dollar worth of damage pretty high?

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]EDIT: I think you are missing my point. I'm not saying the FBI doesn't arrest or investigate right wing groups, I'm wondering why ELF was mentioned with Al Queda in a "list of domestic terror groups" where more destructive and dangerous groups were not.

Isn't arson considered dangerous? Isn't 70 million dollar worth of damage pretty high?

Compared with flying planes into buildings? Compared with the billions done on 9/11 and Iraq? Compared with targeting anyone who is a jew, black, homosexual, or foreign?

Considering ELF and ALF take pains to avoid people during their "attacks" and do not target people.

I think 70 million and arson are childs play with whats happening out there.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]Coincidentally the 10th anniversary of oklahoma bombings was recently, wonder how much more damage right-wing/assault rifles for jesus groups have done when compared against some SUV vandalizing hippies.

First, he based his attack on the turner diaries (racist book) if you didn't know. Furthermore, what do assault rifles have to with a bombing in which the bomb was homemade. Again, those right wing/racists tend to be lone wolf and hard to catch but the F.B.I have been lucky a couple of times.

In this case assault rifles for jesus-types was referring generally to the right-wing militia nutjobs that think that armageddon/race war/UN zionist world domination is nearing.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]EDIT: I think you are missing my point. I'm not saying the FBI doesn't arrest or investigate right wing groups, I'm wondering why ELF was mentioned with Al Queda in a "list of domestic terror groups" where more destructive and dangerous groups were not.

Isn't arson considered dangerous? Isn't 70 million dollar worth of damage pretty high?

Compared with flying planes into buildings? Compared with the billions done on 9/11 and Iraq? Compared with targeting anyone who is a jew, black, homosexual, or foreign?

Considering ELF and ALF take pains to avoid people during their "attacks" and do not target people.

I think 70 million and arson are childs play with whats happening out there.

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/terror/terror2000_2001.htm#page_35

That is only between 1980-2001.

[Akira 0]

I don't know how to make it any more plain for you.

ANIMAL LIBERATIONS AND BURNING AN UNFINISHED HOUSING DEVELOPMENT ARE NOT THE SAME AS BEHEADINGS AND 9/11 STYLE ATTACKS

And no matter how many pretty pie charts you post will change that.

From your link, ELF"s creed:

Quote[/b] ]I. to inflict economic damage to those who profit from the destruction and exploitation of the natural environment;

II. to reveal and educate the public on the atrocities committed against the environment and all the species which cohabitate in it; and

III. to take all necessary precautions against harming any animal, human and non-human.

Is it getting through now maybe?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't know how to make it any more plain for you.

ANIMAL LIBERATIONS AND BURNING AN UNFINISHED HOUSING DEVELOPMENT ARE NOT THE SAME AS BEHEADINGS AND 9/11 STYLE ATTACKS

And no matter how many pretty pie charts you post will change that.

From your link, ELF"s creed:

Who cares that they purposely do not attack humans? Ecoterrorism is another form of terrorism. You do not care about doing economic harm but thankfully the FBI and co. They have committed more ecoterror acts than Al-Q did terror acts in the US. I think it would show up on the radar of the FBI. Furthermore, Al-Q is not the only terror group out there. You would be moaning if Al-Q committed the same amount of attacks that ALF/ELF does. Don't worry because people like William Krar are being looked at/arrested also.

[denoir 0]

Who cares that they purposely do not attack humans? Ecoterrorism is another form of terrorism. You do not care about doing economic harm but thankfully the FBI and co.

So Enron would be a terrorist organization as well. They did some significant economic damage.

Well, you're in good company anyway, with China, Iran, the Soviet Union etc. I think they called it "Enemy of the State", but I hope you do realize that it's the same thing. You even have your set of 'special' laws, i.e the Patriot act as well as your own little Gulag (Gitmo) for the 'undesirable' elements.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Who cares that they purposely do not attack humans? Ecoterrorism is another form of terrorism.

You've said some stupid things before but that one takes the cake. Alright. By your own rationale then you are no longer able to whine about American civilians kidnapped or killed in terrorist attacks. Its just the same as setting a dump truck on fire after all. The only difference is you'd spend more time in jail for doing corporate arson.

Quote[/b] ]You do not care about doing economic harm but thankfully the FBI and co

Economic harm? 70 million?? Give me a break. Maybe TBA can do without one smart bomb...that will cover it.

Quote[/b] ]They have committed more ecoterror acts than Al-Q did terror acts in the US.

Ok lets compare since you seem to be extra dense today.

ELF - 70 million in damages, no casualties.

AQ - Billions in damages. 3000+ and climbing death toll.

Quote[/b] ]You would be moaning if Al-Q committed the same amount of attacks that ALF/ELF does.

I don't think I'd even twitch if all AQ did was set trucks on fire and be a pain for a few corporate fat cats.

Here. Lets try another exercise to try to get through to you:

The Insidious Al Queda sneaks into the US and begins training for months. Law enforcement know they are there. They watch them. A few even piece together the puzzle and warn superiors, who in a major snafu, ignore the warnings. And then it happens. In a brilliantly co-ordinated attack, starting in three different cities the terrorist's strike! Dozens of dump trucks are set on fire! The President is rushed to a "secure location" whle they try to make sense of the reports coming in. It becomes clear the extent of the damage and casualties. A dozen dump trucks burned. No one hurt. The perpetrators quickly escape to Aghanistan. The President demands their return but Afghanistan only replies with a "WTF?" The President does the only thing he can do. Soon the bombs drop all over Afghanistan and troops move in. The operation to capture those evil eco-terrorists was underway.

The truth is I can only see on reason why the would mention ELF and ALF together with AQ, and that is some big corporation went whining to TBA, who subsequently put pressure on the FBI in order to put those groups closer to the top of the domestic terror list.

The only thing they hurt are large corporations pocket books, and that is the only reason they are on the list. What about urban gangs? Drugs and arms dealing. Wouldn't you think they would be a larger domestic threat? Well...I guess since they are only killing minorities for the most part...

Here's something else to help you visualize:

Quote[/b] ]George Bush And Company Domestic Terror Checklist

Left Wing Organization..................check

Not Religiously Based....................check

Only Hurt Large Corporations..........check

If you answered yes to any of the above, you have a domestic threat that must be immediately destroyed!

Also it would be interesting to know if this allows TBA to treat American citizens the same as those at Gitmo.

So Billy, quit parroting TBA for once, and think. Do you honestly think that ELF and ALF are anywhere near the threat of AQ, Aryan Nation, militias or groups of those nature?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]You've said some stupid things before but that one takes the cake.  Alright. By your own rationale then you are no longer able to whine about American civilians kidnapped or killed in terrorist attacks. Its just the same as setting a dump truck on fire after all. The only difference is you'd spend more time in jail for doing corporate arson.

Ecoterrorism is another form of terrorism just like Islamic and right-wing terrorism. They just use different tactics. One use violence and the other does not but uses arson and etc for change.

Quote[/b] ]The only thing they hurt are large corporations pocket books, and that is the only reason they are on the list. What about urban gangs? Drugs and arms dealing. Wouldn't you think they would be a larger domestic threat? Well...I guess since they are only killing minorities for the most part...

BAH BAH, Drugs and arms dealing fall under another cateorgy. Nice cheap shot.... you assume a lot.

Quote[/b] ]The truth is I can only see on reason why the would mention ELF and ALF together with AQ, and that is some big corporation went whining to TBA, who subsequently put pressure on the FBI in order to put those groups closer to the top of the domestic terror list.

ALF/ELF has been on the monitored by the FBI for more than 25 years. It has been long over due because of the increase in ALF/ELF attacks that outnumber other domestic (aka US citizens doing it) terror. attacks in the last couple of years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64058-2005Apr18_2.html

Quote[/b] ]John Lewis, deputy chief of the FBI's counterintelligence unit, said authorities had seen the "resourcefulness" of foreign terrorists. "That being said, we are very committed to investigating domestic threats," he said.

Foregin terrorist=Al-Q.

Domestic=ALF/ELF and etc.

Quote[/b] ]Lewis cautioned that the threat of "eco-terrorists" cannot be minimized simply because there have been no fatalities in their attacks. "When you're burning homes, buildings and ski slopes, it's just a matter of time," he said. "In my view, they have just been lucky."

Again, just because a internal memo does not mention right-wing groups does not mean they are not forgotten.

I guess nobody cared to look up William Krar,

Quote[/b] ]Two years ago (2003), federal agents in Texas arrested William Krar, a white supremacist who possessed enough sodium cyanide to kill 6,000 people, half a million rounds of ammunition and 60 pipe bombs. Krar, who had ties to anti-government groups, pleaded guilty to possessing a chemical weapon and was sentenced to 11 years in prison.

I wonder how they found out about him...

Quote[/b] ]So Enron would be a terrorist organization as well. They did some significant economic damage.

Well, you're in good company anyway, with China, Iran, the Soviet Union etc. I think they called it "Enemy of the State", but I hope you do realize that it's the same thing. You even have your set of 'special' laws, i.e the Patriot act as well as your own little Gulag (Gitmo) for the 'undesirable' elements.

White-collar crime, my buddy. LOL! I get compared to them because I'm against ecoterrorism...

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ecoterrorism is another form of terrorism just like Islamic and right-wing terrorism. They just use different tactics. One use violence and the other does not but uses arson and etc for change.

Eco-terrorism is NOT like extremist religion terrorism. It's very simple to avoid eco-terrorism. Don't pave over natural or endangered ecologies to build a Wal-Mart.

Quote[/b] ]BAH BAH, Drugs and arms dealing fall under another cateorgy. Nice cheap shot.... you assume a lot.

So they have a nice "category" for domestic gangs, that kill civilians and continually circumvent national security. But ELF gets lumped with Al Queda?

What national security is being breached by ELF/ALF?

Quote[/b] ]

ALF/ELF has been on the monitored by the FBI for more than 25 years. It has been long over due because of the increase in ALF/ELF attacks that outnumber other domestic (aka US citizens doing it) terror. attacks in the last couple of years.

I'm sure that has nothing to do with TBA's policies. Better post extra guards in Alaska.

Quote[/b] ]Foregin terrorist=Al-Q.

Domestic=ALF/ELF and etc.

And there is where your rationale falls apart.

The Memo listed ALF/ELF AND Al Queda, together, as major DOMESTIC terrorism concerns. They made no distinction between foreign based or not, but who should be of concern within the US (thus "domestic").

Quote[/b] ]Again, just because a internal memo does not mention right-wing groups does not mean they are not forgotten.

Again. You are completely missing the point (which I gave a number of posts back). ALF/ELF in no way ranks with white supremicist groups, or Al Queda. The have caused no citizens death at all, and actively avoid even harming people. The others do not. So how did ALF/ELF get to the top of the domestic threat list?? Of course the FBI is investigating other violent groups.

Here is where the memo came from:

Quote[/b] ]Animal Rights Groups and Ecology Militants Make DHS Terrorist List, Right-Wing Vigilantes Omitted

By Justin Rood, CQ Staff

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) does not list right-wing domestic terrorists and terrorist groups on a document that appears to be an internal list of threats to the nation’s security.

According to the list — part of a draft planning document obtained by CQ Homeland Security — between now and 2011 DHS expects to contend primarily with adversaries such as al Qaeda and other foreign entities affiliated with the Islamic Jihad movement, as well as domestic radical Islamist groups.

It also lists left-wing domestic groups, such as the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) and the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), as terrorist threats, but it does not mention anti-government groups, white supremacists and other radical right-wing movements, which have staged numerous terrorist attacks that have killed scores of Americans. Recent attacks on cars, businesses and property in Virginia, Oregon and California have been attributed to ELF. {ED: On CARS.....oh no!}

DHS did not respond to repeated requests for comment or confirmation of the document’s authenticity.

The conspirators behind the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, which killed 168 people and wounded more than 500, were inspired by radical right-wing movements. Eric Rudolph, the man charged with carrying out the 1996 Olympic Park bombing in Atlanta, which killed one woman and injured more than 100, was a member of the radical anti-abortion group Army of God. Initially, Rudolph was the object of a massive North Carolina manhunt in connection with a Birmingham, Ala., abortion-clinic bombing that killed a police officer and seriously maimed a nurse.

Another Army of God member, James Kopp, was convicted in the 1998 shooting of a doctor who performed abortions.

Individuals affiliated with such groups have also been involved in many smaller terrorist acts, including mailing hundreds of bogus anthrax letters to abortion clinics, and in plots to obtain and use conventional, chemical and nuclear weapons against civilians. In 2003, for instance, a Texas man prosecutors say was a white supremacist and anti-government radical pleaded guilty to charges of possessing a weapon of mass destruction. Authorities had discovered enough sodium cyanide bombs to kill hundreds of people; machine guns and several hundred thousand rounds of ammunition; 60 pipe bombs; and remote-control explosive devices disguised as briefcases in a storage space he rented. The man, William J. Krar, was sentenced to 11 years in federal prison.

‘Still a Threat’

Domestic terror experts were surprised the department did not include right-wing groups on their list of adversaries.

“They are still a threat, and they will continue to be a threat,†said Mike German, a 16-year undercover agent for the FBI who spent most of his career infiltrating radical right-wing groups. “If for some reason the government no longer considers them a threat, I think they will regret that,†said German, who left the FBI last year. “Hopefully it’s an oversight.â€

James O. Ellis III, a senior terror researcher for the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism (MIPT), said in a telephone interview Friday that whereas left-wing groups, which have been more active recently, have focused mainly on the destruction of property, right-wing groups have a much deadlier and more violent record and should be on the list. “The nature of the history of terrorism is that you will see acts in the name of [right-wing] causes in the future.â€

Focusing on Left-Wing Movements

Last year, following arson and vandalism sprees on both coasts attributed to radical left-wing groups such as ALF and ELF, the FBI made those movements its top domestic terror priority. But right-wing groups remained a concern, according to one FBI official.

“That doesn’t de-emphasize our interest in other domestic terror groups,†stressed the official, who would not be named discussing the bureau’s counterterror strategy, during a phone interview Friday. “For us, the right-wing patriot movement remains a continuing threat.†(The FBI considers militias, tax protesters, and anti-government groups part of the right-wing movement, the official said; the bureau considers violent anti-abortion extremists a separate movement.)

The DHS document, entitled “Integrated Planning Guidance, Fiscal Years 2005-2011,†is dated January 2005. Its pages are marked “Sensitive — Do Not Distribute Outside the Department of Homeland Security — Draft.†Each paragraph in the document is marked “(U/FOUO),†which typically indicates it has been reviewed by a government censor and determined to be unclassified, but “for official use only.â€

Under a section marked “Threat and Vulnerability Assessment,†the document asks and answers the question “Who are the adversaries?â€

First and foremost, the draft document says, are al Qaeda and its affiliates.

Second are new radical Islamist groups that arise overseas amid the rubble of the old al Qaeda organization. These organizations “could try to supplant†al Qaeda and “would see a Homeland attack as a way to attain that goal,†the document states.

Domestic radical Islamic groups concern the department, because of their potential to support al Qaeda operations within the country, or to serve as a “recruiting pool†for the movement.

“However,†the document reads, “we are not convinced that any of these organizations acting alone would pursue a major attack against the Homeland.â€

As a final item, the list notes the threat of eco-terrorists, who “will continue to focus their attacks on property damage in an effort to change policy.†The document notes that although “publicly ALF and ELF promote nonviolence toward human life . . . some members may escalate their attacks.â€{ED: So they are putting more time worrying that ELF/ALF MIGHT escalate attacks and not worrying about the groups that are extremely violent}

Priorities Questioned

The document lists several groups or sources of radical violence that DHS does not consider threats to the homeland.

Lebanese Hizballah and various Palestinian groups, including Hamas and Palestine Islamic Jihad, are unlikely to attack the United States, the report’s authors conclude.

Several high-profile terror prosecutions, including cases against the Texas-based Holy Land Foundation and Florida professor Sami al-Arian, rest on their connection to such groups.

“Why are we expending so many resources targeting people who have allegedly provided support to groups that don’t threaten us?†asked David Cole, a professor of law at Georgetown University and a frequent critic of the U.S. government’s war on terror. “How does that make us safer?â€

State-sponsored terrorism also is not an immediate concern to the department, according to the document. “In the post 9/11 environment, countries do not appear to be facilitating or supporting terrorist groups intent on striking the U.S. homeland,†it reads. In fact, of all the countries designated state sponsors of terrorism, only Iran “appears to have the possible future motivation†to use terrorist groups to plot against the United States.

In the past few years, according to MIPT researcher Ellis, left-wing violence has overtaken right-wing violence as the primary form of domestic terror. “When a conservative government comes to power, you see more activity from the opposite side of the spectrum,†he explained. At the same time, the membership and activity of right-wing groups has suffered since the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, and the broadcasting of images of the children who died in the building’s second-floor day care center.

“A lot of people said, ‘I’m fighting against the Zionist Occupied Government, I’m not here to kill children,†Ellis explained.

Still, Ellis warned, the movements remain worthy of the government’s concern. Last October, the FBI arrested a man in Tennessee who tried to buy sarin nerve gas and C-4 explosive to attack a government building. The man, Demetrius “Van†Crocker, had also inquired about obtaining nuclear waste or other nuclear material, according to the FBI.

And in 2003, a Pennsylvania man was convicted of mailing hundreds of letters containing fake anthrax to abortion clinics around the United States.

Although their activities appear to be decreasing, such groups are still dangerous, said Ellis. “We don’t have the luxury of ignoring threats from either side of the political spectrum.â€

Congressional Quarterly

So again. Though they say the document is not meant to be a comprehensive document, they still felt the need to put Al Qaida and affilitates as the top threat, and then mention eco-terrorism while stating they might escalate attacks however unlikely. They obviously felt no need to make a note about right wing or abortion groups though.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]So they have a nice "category" for domestic gangs, that kill civilians and continually circumvent national security. But ELF gets lumped with Al Queda?  

What national security is being breached by ELF/ALF?

The categories for the FBI... (www.fbi.gov) Gangs can fall under RICO.

Counterterrorism  

Counterintelligence

Cyber

Public Corruption

Civil Rights

Organized Crime

White Collar Crime

-  Antitrust Program

-  Bankruptcy Fraud

-  Environmental Crime

- Financial Institution Fraud

- Governmental Fraud

- Health Care Fraud

- Internet Computer Crime Center

- Insurance Fraud

- Money Laundering

- Securities/Commodities Fraud

- Telemarketing Fraud

Major Thefts/Violent Crimes

-  Art Theft

-  Crimes Against Children

-  Indian Country Crime

- Jewelry and Gem Program

Quote[/b] ]Eco-terrorism is NOT like extremist religion terrorism. It's very simple to avoid eco-terrorism. Don't pave over natural or endangered ecologies to build a Wal-Mart.  

Eco-terrorism is still extremist. Furthermore, people say it is very simple to avoid extremist religion terrorism too.

Quote[/b] ]Last year, following arson and vandalism sprees on both coasts attributed to radical left-wing groups such as ALF and ELF, the FBI made those movements its top domestic terror priority. But right-wing groups remained a concern, according to one FBI official.

Quote[/b] ]In the past few years, according to MIPT researcher Ellis, left-wing violence has overtaken right-wing violence as the primary form of domestic terror.

Get over it. ALF/ELF is considered left-wing terrorism (eco-terrorism to be exact)  but there tactics are different. Up in arms because of a draft.

[Akira 0]

You have said nothing of note, nor even supported your own assertations, and done nothing to discredit my points. It is absolutely useless to talk to you. Everytime I attempt to have a reasoned debate with you I get flashes of FSPilot. I'm almost certain you two are the same.

Quote[/b] ]Eco-terrorism is still extremist. Furthermore, people say it is very simple to avoid extremist religion terrorism too.

Then maybe you should share your insights with TBA. They don't seem to know that.

In any case, I ask for what national security ELF/ALF breached. You give me a list of crime catagories that certainly doesn't back your assertation that Al Qaida and ALF/ELF are equally dangerous to this country.

What grave threat does either of those organizations pose to you or I?

Quote[/b] ]Get over it. ALF/ELF is considered left-wing terrorism (eco-terrorism to be exact) but there tactics are different. Up in arms because of a draft.

So due to your lack of support against my points, you instead head right back to square one, in one large circle.

You need to "get over" your TBA inspired black-and-white world. Are you telling me that some vandilization and arson that have never harmed a single person, are worth the diversion (as your quote said.."top domestic terror priority"*) and resources that could be better spent 1)tracking down violent criminals, or 2)tracking down foreign terrorists, or 3)preventing a major attack...one that doesn't involve spray painting a car.

Do you sleep in fear that the ELF/ALF might vandalize your car? Did you elect TBA to save you from the devilish Earth Liberation Front?

So sleep well tonight knowing that your car is safe, because the FBI will be spending most of their time tracking down left-wing hippies with a taste for minor property damage.

And when the next major attack in whatever form comes, and people die, I don't want to hear a peep from you. You support this unnecessary diversion and classification.

And keep accepting everything the government tells you, and everything it does. Independant thought is frowned upon in this country now anyway.

[walker 0]

Hi all

I presume "right to life" (a misnomer if ever there was one) terrorists are higher up the list than the ALF/ELF it is only common sense. Since they have killed and have close religious links with Al Qaida even sharing the same morality.

Kind Regards Walker

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]So Enron would be a terrorist organization as well. They did some significant economic damage.

Well, you're in good company anyway, with China, Iran, the Soviet Union etc. I think they called it "Enemy of the State", but I hope you do realize that it's the same thing. You even have your set of 'special' laws, i.e the Patriot act as well as your own little Gulag (Gitmo) for the 'undesirable' elements.

White-collar crime, my buddy. LOL!

If the damage is purely financial, what's the difference? If you burn down your place of business to get insurance money, is that terrorism as well? By definition of terrorism, it makes no difference if it's a group or an individual. So if you introduce any type of harm, financial or otherwise.. then basically all criminals are terrorists.

As the terrorism laws were supposed to be a last line of defence, this sets dangerous precedents. On many points they override constitutional rights of the individual. If you can declare anybody a terrorist, then say bye bye to constitutional rights.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]If the damage is purely financial, what's the difference? If you burn down your place of business to get insurance money, is that terrorism as well? By definition of terrorism, it makes no difference if it's a group or an individual. So if you introduce any type of harm, financial or otherwise.. then basically all criminals are terrorists.

White collar crime (wiki):

Quote[/b] ]White-collar crimes (a term coined by Edwin Sutherland in 1939) or business crimes are those crimes specifically performed by white collar employees. They include fraud and bankruptcy fraud, bribery, insider trading, embezzlement, computer crime and forgery.

It is estimated that a great deal of white collar crime is undetected.

Quote[/b] ]As the terrorism laws were supposed to be a last line of defence, this sets dangerous precedents. On many points they override constitutional rights of the individual. If you can declare anybody a terrorist, then say bye bye to constitutional rights.

ALF was put on domestic terrorism list in 1987 and ELF somewhere before 9/11.

Quote[/b] ]The group’s literature also claims that the ELF “operates in groups called cells that may consist of one to many individuals working together. Each cell is autonomous not only to the public, but also to one another. This secure structure helps to keep activists out of jail and free to continue conducting actions.â€

What does that smell like. Operations in cells, come on...

Quote[/b] ]Then maybe you should share your insights with TBA. They don't seem to know that.

In any case, I ask for what national security ELF/ALF breached. You give me a list of crime catagories that certainly doesn't back your assertation that Al Qaida and ALF/ELF are equally dangerous to this country.

What grave threat does either of those organizations pose to you or I?

I thought you wanted to know the categories. More food for thought:

http://prfamerica.org/EarthLiberationFrontNo1onFBIList.html

Quote[/b] ]

News Brief - March 2001 (Pre-9/11):

Earth Liberation Front is now FBI’s No. 1 Domestic Terrorist Threat-

Mainstream media finally pick up on the concern of ecoterrorism

The FBI has put Earth Liberation Front at the top of the list of domestic terrorism threats, above all of the sources of terrorism so well known to the public, Director Louis Freeh told Congress in February. The FBI’s announced priority and the $40 million in damage for which the Earth Liberation Front claims responsibility haven’t erased the mystique that environmental terrorists have with some remaining sectors of the mainstream media, but news coverage is slowly moving ecoterrorism to a level of grave national concern. The question is whether the general public will lose its “inclination to dismiss the group as misguided idealists,†a phrase used by The Wall Street Journal’s editorial on February 14.

During March, the New York Post called the Earth Liberation Front “the new and nasty face of environmentalism,†while sneering at ELF’s claim of being “non-violent.†At the same time, the Post columnist, Stefan C. Friedman, seemed to raise another question about ELF, referring to its “ostensibly†green agenda.

On January 1, ELF caused $400,000 in damage when it burned down the headquarters of the Superior Lumber Company in Glendale, Oregon. Afterwards, the terrorists proclaimed on the ELF web site, “This year, 2001, we hope to see an escalation in tactics against capitalism and industry.â€

ELF’s pronouncements of an agenda combining anti-capitalism and environmental extremism are nothing new, considering the socialist face of environmentalism.

ELF’s violence finally got mainstream media attention when it burned a ski resort under construction in Vail, Colorado in 1998, causing $12 million in damage.

On December 31, ELF claimed responsibility for burning down four new luxury homes at Mount Sinai, Long Island, New York. Ten days earlier, ELF boasted that in burning a house under construction in exclusive Miller Place, Long Island, ELF had accomplished its ninth major strike on Long Island in recent months.

However, Mount Sinai arsonist Jared McIntyre was apprehended and on January 9 pleaded guilty to arson. Hopes are that his apprehension will solve the many acts of terrorism on Long Island, including trampling a research cornfield, destroying construction equipment and burning many houses that were under construction.

The informally organized organization brags about its terrorism with a log of destruction on the Earth Liberation Front web page, and works with the radical Animal Liberation Front.

The web page editor for the “North American Earth Liberation Front,†Craig Rosebraugh of Portland, Oregon, solicits donations for “legal fees†and “printing and shipping costs of information†and provides encryption assistance to receive and distribute “anonymous communiques from the underground Earth Liberation Front.â€

The media are sharply divided about the level of criminality of the ELF terrorists. The Phoenix New Times carried an article, “Burn, Baby Burn,†this year that quoted environmentalists who were sympathetic for someone burning down houses that were under construction in open country outside Phoenix. Shortly later, the same Phoenix paper carried an “exclusive interview with an unidentified man claiming to be the leader of an Arizona arson ring that has torched nearly a dozen unoccupied houses,†according to an opinion article by James Taranto in The Wall Street Journal on February 7. The Journal concluded, “...journalists who disregard normal moral sense in pursuit of a story give our profession a bad name.â€

Who cares that they are not a "national security" issue now. By the looks of it, 9/11 prevented escalation in tactics against "capitalism and industry". The group(s) operate in cells who destroy property (including federal and luckly haven't killed nobody) and whose goal is to educate the public and make changes. What does that smell like? Furthermore, the committed more acts than any other domestic terror group. Just because they haven't killed nobody doesn't mean they shouldn't be wiped out or make them not eco-terrorists.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]

What does that smell like. Operations in cells, come on...

Oh puh-lease. Are you seriously trying to tell me that ELF and Al Qaida are equal threats because the both have "cells"? That is the most bass akwards dumbass thing I have ever heard.

Quote[/b] ]I thought you wanted to know the categories.

I asked what national security threat they represented. Not what catagory they were in.

Quote[/b] ]Who cares that they are not a "national security" issue now.

Most of America actually. You think with daily news briefs about Al Qaida kidnapping or killing people that the average American really gives a fuck that some cars were vandalized by a bunch of hippies?

Quote[/b] ]By the looks of it, 9/11 prevented against escalation in tactics against "capitalism and industry".

Re-structure your sentence so its halfway readable and I will respond.

Quote[/b] ]The group(s) operate in cells who destroy property (including federal and luckly haven't killed nobody) and whose goal is to educate the public and make changes.

No its not luck. They actively avoid it. If there is a chance someone will get hurt or in the way, they don't do whatever the hell it was they planned to do.

Quote[/b] ]What does that smell like?

Like a bunch of hippies.

NOT like a bunch of religious fanatics that have killed 3000+ Americans, caused billions in damages and are actively attacking the US as a government.

So don't even try to equate them. To even attempt to do so is just fucking retarded.

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore, the committed more acts than any other domestic terror group.

Whooptie mother-fuckin' doo.

If these "most domestic terror acts" include vandalizing a car and burning a truck or two, I don't give a crap and I assure you the majority of American's aren't going to give a crap.

Quote[/b] ]Just because they haven't killed nobody doesn't mean they shouldn't be wiped out or make them not eco-terrorists.

Yes everyone who vandalizes a car should be "wiped out." I guess that takes care of a good portion of kids and teenagers, and pranksters. You telling me you've never messed with a car? Bullshit.

Screwing with a car definitly equates to flying a plane into a building. What the hell is in the water in Maryland anyway?

And I know you like to actively pick and choose what parts of posts to read, but I never said they weren't eco-terrorists. In fact I said they should be prosecuted if they break the law. So try reading the posts before responding, it will save us all a lot of time in the long run.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Re-structure your sentence so its halfway readable and I will respond.

Too many damn against...

Quote[/b] ]I asked what national security threat they represented. Not what catagory they were in.

Quote[/b] ]

So they have a nice "category" for domestic gangs, that kill civilians and continually circumvent national security. But ELF gets lumped with Al Queda?  

I thought you had seen that was the best fit for them. That the category is big.

Quote[/b] ]Yes everyone who vandalizes a car should be "wiped out." I guess that takes care of a good portion of kids and teenagers, and pranksters. You telling me you've never messed with a car? Bullshit.

Comparing vandalism to ecoterrorism....way to go. ELF/AFL pass that mark along time ago. Anyway, "Wiped out" does not wiped out in that sense.

Quote[/b] ]If these "most domestic terror acts" include vandalizing a car and burning a truck or two, I don't give a crap and I assure you the majority of American's aren't going to give a crap.

One of the ELF/AFL "pranksters" was just convicted and sentenced for 8 years for destroying 125 SUVs at dealerships and homes in Calf. Also, he spray painted: "Fat, Lazy Americans," "polluter" and "ELF," on some the SUVs.

Lets take the general definition of terrorism:

Quote[/b] ]ter·ror·ism    (tr-rzm) KEY  

NOUN:

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Taken from ALF/ELF:

Quote[/b] ]I. to inflict economic damage to those who profit from the destruction and exploitation of the natural environment;

II. to reveal and educate the public on the atrocities committed against the environment and all the species which cohabitate in it; and

Al-Qaeda is one form of terrorism and ALF/ELF is another. Furthermore, the reason they put ALF/ELF has the number 1 domestic terrorist threat is that they are active. The right-wing groups are being monitored but not ranked #1 because they are not active or prolific ( ) has ELF/AFL. Alot of it just assumptions using past data for the last couple of years. Also, Al-Qaeda and friends are considered a international terrorist threat.

Rank threat using that draft to the "homeland":

1. Al-Qaeda and affiliates (killings and etc.)

2. Domestic radical Islamic groups (logistic support for Al-Q and other groups.)

3. ELF/ALF (the most active of the domestic groups in carrying out attacks). Any other domestic group could have taken this spot but not has active. If doctors were killed at the pace of ELF/ALF acts surely that right-wing group would be in that spot. However, saying that, is that a threat to the "homeland"?

Lebanese Hizballah and various Palestinian groups are not likely: (guessing)

1.  The US would go directly after Syria if Hizballah would attack.

2. The Palestinian groups, again suicide...the US has given 100s million of dollars over the to Palestinians to help them. And, support of a Palestinian country.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Too many damn against...

Still not sure what you are trying to say with that sentence. Are you comparing 9/11 to spray painting SUVs?

Quote[/b] ]I thought you had seen that was the best fit for them. That the category is big.

Indeed it is too big of a catagory if ELF gets lumped together with Al Queda. Urban gangs are still more of a threat domestically than ELF or ALF, including economically, and undoubtedly cause far more violence than either of those organizations. Why isn't that listed as "domestic terrorism" since those crimes happen in our neighborhood streets, in front of children, and not at an unoccupied car dealership. Just recently another child was shot by a stray bullet from a gang member (and lord knows how many we haven't heard about). Lets keep things in perspective shall we?

Quote[/b] ]Comparing vandalism to ecoterrorism....way to go.

I didn't "compare" them. Your own damn quote says "vandalism" is one of ELF's crimes. So if you have a problem with that, maybe you should talk to the FBI who you are wholeheartedly backing right now?

Quote[/b] ]One of the ELF/AFL "pranksters" was just convicted and sentenced for 8 years for destroying 125 SUVs at dealerships and homes in Calf.

I found the information about the incident but it listed no homes damaged, just a dealership warehouse. There have of course been separate attacks on homes, but every attack against homes has been against unoccupied and unfinished homes (and usually "luxury" homes), so the bold "and" in your statement does not warrant the stress as if it was some attempt at baby burning.

Quote[/b] ]Al-Qaeda is one form of terrorism and ALF/ELF is another.

This is like the fourth time you have said this, and this is the fourth time I have said "No shit." And this is the fourth time that I have said "ELF does not warrant being in the same catagory as Al Queda."

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore, the reason they put ALF/ELF has the number 1 domestic terrorist threat is that they are active. The right-wing groups are being monitored but not ranked #1 because they are not active or prolific ( ) has ELF/AFL.

According to this report they are quite active, and go against everything you have said in support of this new highlighting of ELF.

So again...why was ELF highlighted and lumped with Al Queda?

Quote[/b] ]Alot of it just assumptions using past data for the last couple of years. Also, Al-Qaeda and friends are considered a international terrorist threat.

I don't know how many times I can say it.

The report listed Al Queda as the major DOMESTIC threat in the US, whether or not it was internationally based or not. The report talks about what is a threat within the US. It makes not distinction between home-grown or not. It lists Al Queda/Islamic groups and then ELF. Little bit of a switch I would say.

Also the report made a rather broad and unsupported assumption that ELF/ALF would increase the violence of their attacks, which was given as a reason for thier inclusion. This assumption is neither supported by their acts or the history of their acts. It is however indicitive of right-wing groups and their acts.

So again.

Why was ELF highlighted with AL Queda?

[miles teg 1]

It is interesting that you continue to leave out right wing paramilitary groups in your list of domestic terror threats even though they are definitely viable threats.

Also organized crime operates in a cell structure as well.  These include such groups as the Russian mafia and the Mexican Mafia.  I know here in Texas the Mexican Mafia has been linked to hundreds of murders in recent years.  They should be defined as narco-terrorists as they operate in cell structures, have heavily armed members, and have a history of carrying out murders, assassinations, hostage taking, extortion, money laundering, and drug smuggling/dealing.

Yet, they are not on the terrorist list.

Eco-terrorists are criminals.  But they SHOULD NOT get high priority just because they dammage corporate property to make a political statement.

But I guess this memo shows where the priorities of the Bush administration and the FBI are.

Its also sad that you still refuse to say whether you see Eco-Terrorists as an equal threat to America as Al-Qaeda.  

If you do, then man, you got a pretty wacked sense of reality and an irrational fear of leftists that is not based on any factual evidence that these people are going to harm you or yoru family.   Hell you probably have more chance of winning the lottery then being killed in an Al-Qaeda terrorist attack for that matter, let alone somehow being hurt by "eco-terrorists" with no history of murdering people.  Are you a humvee dealership?  Do you have stock in Walmart?  If so maybe then your fears are more understandable.

<right-wing commie killer mode>

Or you see them god damn commies for what they are which is a bunch of godless Marxists who are trying to destroy America at its heart...capitalism.  They're trying destroy the American way of life and American values...the ULTIMATE form of terrorism destroying American from within.  So maybe they're even a GREATER threat then Al-Qaeda!  Shit...if they get Americans to stop consuming so much, our economy will slow to a standstill and then what!  CHAOS!!!  Then the EU and China (both socialist commies) will take over the world economy and America will fall to #2 or (gasp) #3 as a world economy!!! HELL NO!!!  WE CAN'T LET THAT HAPPEN AND MUST FIGHT TO THE DEATH AGAINST THOSE LIBERALS because if they have their way, we'd have a breakdown in law and order, the destruction of family values, Christians would be rounded up and shot, and then them god damn hippy liberal Democrats in Congress will ask the UN to come in and take over the government!   It all makes perfect sense.  Can't you all see the plan?  It's so obvious!!!  Shit those eco-terrorists are smart!  They're probably using Al-Qaeda as a smoke screen to cover the true threat to America and their evil schemes that they're plotting in their little gay communes in San Fransisco!

<Right wing Commie Killer Mode off>

Ahhh.. the world is crystal clear to the eyes of a Neo-Con.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>