USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[Hillsbills 1]

They work hard, and I'd rather have them here than a lot of our legally born citizens. I'd rather see that ethic put into fixing Mexico though.

[GRS 10]

I'd also rather have a lot of our legally born citizens than a lot of the illegal aliens. Double edged sword. I'll say this: I don't like it, at all, but if I was in their shoes I'd probably make the illegal crossing too... So I can understand it, but I don't want it.

(assuming this is the group we are discussing anyways)

[MAVEN 1]

They work hard, and I'd rather have them here than a lot of our legally born citizens. I'd rather see that ethic put into fixing Mexico though.

I'd also rather have a lot of our legally born citizens than a lot of the illegal aliens. Double edged sword. I'll say this: I don't like it, at all, but if I was in their shoes I'd probably make the illegal crossing too... So I can understand it, but I don't want it.

(assuming this is the group we are discussing anyways)

Both of you are right, see that's why immigration is a big problem in US particularly, a very touchy topic. It's also damaging to the countries immigrants come from as most of those who flee are better than majority from the country they are leaving, which only adds more damage to their native country as their country loses hard working individuals who are willing to live life unlike others who probably said to themselves "s**w it, we will all die here like this and there's no way out"

However, hard work is useless if a nation is divided, as much as legally born citizens are useless when they can't prevent such things from happening.

[spooky lynx 73]

It's also damaging to the countries immigrants come from as most of those who flee are better than majority from the country they are leaving, which only adds more damage to their native country as their country loses hard working individuals who are willing to live life unlike others who probably said to themselves "s**w it, we will all die here like this and there's no way out"

From this point of view is it better to organize voting for becoming a part of a country that receives all that migrants? It solves two problems: illegal migration and conflicts between migrants and natives and prevention of that country becoming shytehole left by all good people.

[MAVEN 1]

From this point of view is it better to organize voting for becoming a part of a country that receives all that migrants? It solves two problems: illegal migration and conflicts between migrants and natives and prevention of that country becoming shytehole left by all good people.

Might be a good concept, US needs something like this to get rid of all that racism that's rising. Well, few politicians tried actually, only to get put astray by others with more power.

Immigration is like getting someone uninvited at your front doors, you may decide to take them in or not, they may also slip in, some choose to stay and help you around if you let them, others refuse to leave and then they take your property (or your life). That being said, not all immigrants cause problems, some in fact bring a lot of value and help people around because they had nothing and all of sudden they have life to live so now they want to return the favor and share the happiness, this is however rare, kudos to those. Immigration is one of many problems, and if nobody is willing to resolve this properly it will eventually grow too big and cause massive damage.

P.S. Ivan and Martin are released, you may remove your sig attachment ;)

[spooky lynx 73]

Might be a good concept, US needs something like this to get rid of all that racism that's rising. Well, few politicians tried actually, only to get put astray by others with more power.

Speaking about US and Mexicans I suppose many Mexican states could become US ones. Yes, they wouldn't be an independent state anymore but I see Mexicans clearly show what state and law system is better for them - domestic or US one. So in case of joining the US they get rid of the whole problems with migration, naturalisation and moving to other region, US saves money for customs and border guard work, Mexicans get US laws and state system in their home with no need to move hundreds km north for it. Yes, that will surely hurt their national pride but the real value of their state and laws is undermined by all that amount of both legal and illegal migrants that left their glorious state for better life in recent years (and all that US border guard efforts to decrease the number of illegal immigrants who sometimes prefer to be illegal US resident but not Mexican one).

[scrim 1]

And the US would be plagued by very dangerous drug related criminals by at least the thousands whom are now free to travel wherever they want to in CONUS, history's biggest and bloodiest drugs conflicts, and a bunch of other nasty things. Then there's the fact that Mexico is a poor third world country, so adding them to the US would be like when East and West Germany was united, but without the initial joy for the majority. Instead we'd skip ahead to when people realise that they just got stuck with a dump of a country as their own now.

Not to mention the fact that it would be political foul play, as most Mexicans would go ahead and vote Democrat for obvious reasons, and considering the scale of incorporating Mexico into the US, the fact that only the Dems would consider it, and the fact that it'd sink the budget, it would practically end up being the Democratic party buying ellectoral votes.

The war on drugs would turn costlier, unemployment for the new citizens would blow a massive hole in that budget as well, there'd be a massive increase in military grade weapons available for criminals (now that's a fact and mentioned as such, not restarting the gun debate). Pretty much everything would go down the drains for the Americans, at the cost of improving the living conditions of the Mexicans to such a degree that they would not be accused of genocide for tolerating an overwhelming majority of the new citizens to keep living in real third world conditions.

[MAVEN 1]

US sells weapons to Mexico (not debating guns here) for money, Mexico sees violent crimes, guerillas, drug cartels, average people from Mexico want to flee all that violence and rush to US, then US has to pay border control and on top of that deal with immigration and many other issues. It's called a slapback effect and it's real.

It's not just about Mexico, the same goes for mid east, balkani's, North Africa and other regions US was peacekeeping in, all those people who are struck by conflicts run away for their bare lives, and since US welcomes immigrants more than any other, they end up there then cause trouble in none other than the US that made them flee and let them live in no other place than US itself.

The sad fact is politicians in US (and worldwide) know about this, and even though some want to solve this issue the fed doesn't let them, instead more money is printed, loaned, more homes end up taken away, more people end up on streets and eventually there's more violence while those who have all the money watch and laugh.

Murikha fukh yeagh! (Yep, it's the same people who made this meme that whole US shares and so loves, except it's widely shared as as Murika f**k yeah, close enough) it's also the same people who are causing all that trouble in US and who just happen to have lots of power in US politics:confused:

[scrim 1]

The US has only implemented stricter and stricter immigration policies since the 1920's, the days of "give me your poor" are since long over. Most people in the world, even other Western countries don't stand a chance of getting over there due to unusually strict immigration laws. It is considerably easier and quicker to immigrate to an average Western European country where your lack of relevant education means that you'll get benefits that'd make you rich as a nobelman in your homecountry, and you can get your family over there pretty quickly once you've settled down.

[Tonci87 163]

Might be a good concept, US needs something like this to get rid of all that racism that's rising. Well, few politicians tried actually, only to get put astray by others with more power.

Immigration is like getting someone uninvited at your front doors, you may decide to take them in or not, they may also slip in, some choose to stay and help you around if you let them, others refuse to leave and then they take your property (or your life). That being said, not all immigrants cause problems, some in fact bring a lot of value and help people around because they had nothing and all of sudden they have life to live so now they want to return the favor and share the happiness, this is however rare, kudos to those. Immigration is one of many problems, and if nobody is willing to resolve this properly it will eventually grow too big and cause massive damage.

P.S. Ivan and Martin are released, you may remove your sig attachment ;)

I think you are wrong there.

IMHO the majority of those immigrants wants to live a good life and is ready to work hard for it. But there are also negative examples that get far more attention in the media. Because of that people think that immigrants are bad.

Don´t forget that many good immigrants simply don´t get a chance.

[MAVEN 1]

I think you are wrong there.

IMHO the majority of those immigrants wants to live a good life and is ready to work hard for it. But there are also negative examples that get far more attention in the media. Because of that people think that immigrants are bad.

Don´t forget that many good immigrants simply don´t get a chance.

They all want to live good life, who doesn't want to? I am yet to find a single person that doesn't want to live lovely life. The majority immigrants are negative examples (in eyes of people from developed nations, because those who do manage to slip in have skill and had to do something illegal which is against what many in developed countries hold as sacred) but not for those in poorer countries. Many good immigrants doesn't exist, because those are never immigrants but slaves to their countries regimes rather, which is a sad thing. I used to know few dudes from 3rd world countries who were literally forced to work for their government, one of them was a skilled soldier, another an expert in chemistry, yet another was an exceptional expert with hadrware. Some of them made it out, some I never heard off again (may god protect them, and give peace to those who fallen a prey to their countries regimes)

I'm born in Kaluga city, grew up there thus my views may be different from others in US or central Europe, however, since I do work and travel on my own since 16 y old I had a chance to see the good and the bad, and even end up trapped and get out of some of it.

The ideal solution is to think up something that will help both immigrants and those who don't want them in their countries. Hard to get, but possible. The few individuals who can bring a lot value to the country they immigrate to should receive extra help and get treated properly. US actually has some funding programes for such.

[Hillsbills 1]

Just for the record, having talked to a few of our Southern import illegals, racism will be coming along with them. No love for the blacks there.

[MAVEN 1]

Just for the record, having talked to a few of our Southern import illegals, racism will be coming along with them. No love for the blacks there.

See, that's not racism actually as most see it, it's hate against other cultures.

One of my 3 best friends is Jamaican, hes coal black and rastafari, yet I respect him like my brother, but even he agrees some blacks can be messed up in their heads just as I agree some whites can be as well.

Saying blacks, yellows, mixed or whatever is bad in general doesn't pin-point to exact issue, that's just outright stupidity. Most use it to describe immigrants this way, but rarely who thinks about it and understands the true meaning.

You have African Americans in US, there are pure Africans, in well, Africa, although rare you have European blacks (mostly immigrated but still counts) you have blacks in Asia. All of them share skin color - black. BUT, they are not same at all, their cultures, religions and thus behaviors are completely different. The same goes for US as West VS Russia as East. We're all mostly white, mostly Christian yet why is there such a conflict going on after WW2 ended between us? It's the culture.

In US, immigrants bring new cultures, new cultures endanger the American Dream and that's where things get awkward for everyone.

[Tonci87 163]

See, that's not racism actually as most see it, it's hate against other cultures.

One of my 3 best friends is Jamaican, hes coal black and rastafari, yet I respect him like my brother, but even he agrees some blacks can be messed up in their heads just as I agree some whites can be as well.

Saying blacks, yellows, mixed or whatever is bad in general doesn't pin-point to exact issue, that's just outright stupidity. Most use it to describe immigrants this way, but rarely who thinks about it and understands the true meaning.

You have African Americans in US, there are pure Africans, in well, Africa, although rare you have European blacks (mostly immigrated but still counts) you have blacks in Asia. All of them share skin color - black. BUT, they are not same at all, their cultures, religions and thus behaviors are completely different. The same goes for US as West VS Russia as East. We're all mostly white, mostly Christian yet why is there such a conflict going on after WW2 ended between us? It's the culture.

In US, immigrants bring new cultures, new cultures endanger the American Dream and that's where things get awkward for everyone.

I wouldn´t say new cultures endanger the american dream. Remember that America is made up of many different cultures!

It´s the "fear of the new" that makes people think that immigrants are bad in general.

[MAVEN 1]

I wouldn´t say new cultures endanger the american dream. Remember that America is made up of many different cultures!

It´s the "fear of the new" that makes people think that immigrants are bad in general.

That's partially true. US consists of many cultures that were passed from generation to generation in US (and even in Western Europe) over centuries. The cultures I was referring about were the new invasive ones that disrupt what was proven stable and used for so long. Once again, immigration/cultures are just part of a much bigger problem going on.

Saying how other cultures coming into US rapidly is a good thing is like saying that it's good to mix world's animal species on an isolated island where nature did its work the best way it can be.

The only case where this is good is when things are changed step by step and gradually so that everything and everyone around can adapt, which used to happen before but not any longer.

Now, sadly, there are more "al quaedas" in the US than in middle east, more slums than in latin america's, more racism than in india and central europe.

I know about such things because it's not happening only in US but in Russia as well (In Germany, UK, Switzerland, Norway and few others too) with an exception that in Russia people hold their s**te together and push the bad immigrants out violently but accept the ones who are actually decent people worth living in a 21st century nation and use legal channels to enter properly, it's one of reasons why Moscow has the most richest individuals per capita, why our gaming and design industry is booming and designers/developers like me can afford to travel across the globe then see things, learn, and later influence others in a positive (or negative) way.

US needs something like this, which I hope will come and prevent the worst from happening. In the 1980's and early 90's up to 2000 average American would welcome you warmly to his/her home, offer you a drink, shelter, food, an opportunity, show you his/her country's great heritage, introduce you to his/her dearest family members and friends (who held up onto one another and built their homes together) then on your way back out of US you would be escorted properly with tons of great wishes and gifts so you come back again or even better welcome them the same way when they come in your country.

Today? An average individual particularly from the poorer parts of the US would either shoot you with a cheap overused 9mm pistol, beat the shit out of you for tresspassing what fed already took away from him/her, curse you in his/her own "imported" language or god knows what. The 40% are still good though, and I am proud to know, work and be a valuable friend with those few who still hold their true American pride, culture and goodwill for others. I've seen it all with my own eyes as well, as designer I sometimes (Though not often, it's still expensive) travel to San Francisco, Bay Area to attend design events to learn something new about design trends, so I get a chance to know and see things 1st hand.

About, "fear of the new". In US you can see whites marrying blacks and having kids, mixeds marrying asiats and having kids, in Africa you can see same thing, you can also see poorest of the African region's people rapidly adopting modern technology (New water systems, super fast fiber internet to come soon, they even got their own smartphone in the making) in Asia (Indonesia and China particularly) people adopt social networks so fast that some companies can't keep up with the demand and in Japan robotics are rapidly becoming designed for both US and European markets, even in middle east, be it Afghanistan or Israel or any other, you can see people exploring the new like never before. The problem isn't inexistent fear of the new, but how to contain and control the use of the so much new rushing in.

The only places where "fear of the new" is present in 21st century is central europe, balkani region in particular, some messed up places in far middle east and north western africa. Kudos to the few who aren't "afraid of the new" from there, I met few individuals here on this forum and they are cool people unlike the majority from those places ;)

Of course, these are all my humble opinions and you and everyone else can keep thinking and holding onto what you think is true and best for you, just as I am doing for myself. Even though my comment is somewhat harsh (although centered on the US politics topic) I hope nobody gets insulted by it, but instead get indulged to think about real politics and share with others here :)

[scrim 1]

Now, sadly, there are more "al quaedas" in the US than in middle east, more slums than in latin america's, more racism than in india and central europe.

Where do you get even half of these things from?

[MAVEN 1]

Where do you get even half of these things from?

I ain't going to reply to your comments after the debacle in "the thread" for your safety, thus I will kindly and politely ask you to not reply to me either ;)

[scrim 1]

A claim that there are more jihadis than in the Middle East, and more slums than in Latin America in the US is a statement that is very relevant to the topic of this thread, not to mention completely false. Hence I ask you why on Earth you would believe that, provided that you actually do?

[MAVEN 1]

I apology to everyone that I have to drift off topic a bit.

A claim that there are more jihadis than in the Middle East, and more slums than in Latin America in the US is a statement that is very relevant to the topic of this thread, not to mention completely false. Hence I ask you why on Earth you would believe that, provided that you actually do?

You like to read global news, so I found you some links based on my real sources (note I don't read news, but you stated it many times you do) so I adapted my sources to what's in public:

US population - https://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

American ignorance - https://elliotlakenews.wordpress.com/2011/03/26/u-s-whites-outnumbered-in-40-yrs/

And again - http://news.monstersandcritics.com/usa/news/article_1424117.php/US_will_have_more_diverse_population_whites_outnumbered_by_2042

And you can find dozens more.

But then this happened - https://gawker.com/5911025/black-is-the-new-white-non+white-births-outnumber-white-births-for-the-first-time-in-us-history

You can find many more as well.

Now, who are those people that account for over 60 % in US today?

They are 10 to 20 % of these - http://www.cotf.edu/earthinfo/meast/MEpeo.html

And this is getting up to 20-30 % as conflicts escalate further.

Neverminding other parts of the world like Latin Americas, Africa, etc count too.

A rough math estimate then says that mid east has over ~70 million of potential trouble makers, while in US that's around 60 million from the reported "immigrants" only. Add to that, that US is better supplied with weapons, better trained, more powerful and involved in conflicts than middle east, that US is a better place to live in than in middle east and you can nearly see it. Now, if you are in for the real number, account all Latin Americans, Africans, Indians, Asians who as well tag along in the US and account their "trouble maker" percentages and you will see that US is a hotbed for violence in the future, that's unless something stops this from happening which is unlikely as it seems. If you are in for even more, account all of those who immigrate from UK who previously immigrated from places mentioned before, or from 3rd world regions such as north-east africa, balkani in central europe, indonesia, etc then add to this that publicly available data is filled with propaganda so numbers are in no way accurate, nor is it even possible to know the exact number.

This is all based on public data just so you can see for your self. My sources aren't publicly available, neither are they deep, but at least I know truth and decide to accept it as it is.

In any way, shut up once and for all about where I get my facts and claims from. If you don't believe it, your problem, move on. if you are unable to find your way around real information, your problem, not mine. But don't write my way again.

I don't have to prove you anything nor do I care much seriously, I replied this time only so you could understand and others could see that you provoke even when I mentioned you shouldn't.

Next time when you decide to provoke, I won't send my response here, but in private and not on this forum.

P.S. I forgot to mention that those percentages apply to every country/nation in this world and that there is no direct accusation whatsoever, what I basically demonstrated is like that there are many beehives and there are bees except that more of the ones who couldn't adapt in their own hives decided to go in US one, US would do the same to Europe if it was poorly developed like middle east for example, which is thankfully not the case.

Edited January 17, 2013 by MAVEN

[scrim 1]

You're not a mod, so I won't shut up because you say so. Neither should you be insulting me when acting like you are sitting in a rightly deserved ivory tower. Further, nothing you have linked to proves anything. You're painting many Americans out as ignorant racists because of 2 blog posts, like that wouldn't be an ignorant thing to do. You provide no proof for that there is more jihadis in the US than in the Middle East, neither do you provide any evidence supporting that there would exist more slums there than in Latin America.

And since you have time after time stated that you don't even read newspapers, where do you claim to be getting your vast amount of "information" about a country in which you do not even live? If you "know" that a country that has been the scene of only two terrorist attacks carried out by jihadis in the last 30 or so years contains more jihadis than the Middle East which is the scene of more terror attacks than that per day, I could point out some flaws in that belief. One would be that the FBI and the CIA would be very likely to be aware of that, and thus acted accordingly. And no, weapons are not easier to gain access to in the US than in the Middle East, South America or Africa. On which planet have you lived the last half century?

[Elesar 1]

I don't blame you for your lack of intelligence, scrim. It appears you are far better than some individuals who administer these forums. One of them pooped his pants and called for support because he couldn't handle a regular user like me, even though he spent years here, such a way to put other administrators/mods to shame (Kudos to the rest of you who are actually great people).

I will be back sooner or later.

I apology to everyone for this convenience and if I insulted anyone (except you and the person in question) in any way.

Thank you for your support with my missions, questions and your valuable feedback on these forums everyone. BI, keep up the good work :)

And you W0lle. I guess you rushed to ban me and didn't get my last message in time (which explains many things you asked previously). This reply might not even get approved, and may get removed. However, I have the message if you still want it here pm me (or any other administrator/moderator/team member, that will be even better). I will do what I said I will do, regardless of who you think you are and regardless if I am removed from any forum for that matter (even on a period of time). What's between me and you will be resolved personally not on these forums, with an exception that I will be enjoying my life while you face the consequences of your actions and insults you directed to me, within a month, few months, a year, several years, when you last expect it. I give you my word.

[froggyluv 2130]

Good grief this thread has gotten even uglier AFTER the gun ban!?! I'm stayin outta here

[scrim 1]

I liked pretty much the entire forums before death threats were issued...

[W0lle 1042]

Well we dealt with the guy as he asked for. If he comes back, and most probably he will just call for help and we come to the rescue. :)

[LordJarhead 1721]

Well we dealt with the guy as he asked for. If he comes back, and most probably he will just call for help and we come to the rescue. :)

This is a really sad situation I see here. But as much (or less) I know about life: Never discuss politics when you don't want to have disputes all over the place. There are so many different opinions, and since politics and, especially race topics, are so numerous represented in our world, it is impossible for any one of us to know about real facts I'm afraid. What the government is telling you and what not is a giant difference. I pretty sorry to hear MAVEN got banned, but I got to admit, his way of leading this conversation wasn't the best at the end.

When it comes to those topics, there is no wrong or right, there are no real or wrong facts. Its impossible to deliver your opinion when you can not really trust your sources of information. MAVEN is a good friend, I'm sorry to see that this was going like this.

Sry for staying of topic, just my 2 cents to that ban!

LJ