USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[Balschoiw 0]

Exporting torture and breaches of international law worldwide:

Secret CIA Flights Won't Go Away

Quote[/b] ]...

On Tuesday, the Berliner Zeitung reported that American airbases in Germany had been used as pit stops for at least six secret flights, including the two most high-profile missions in the unfolding story of so-called "extraordinary renditions." For some time it's been suspected that a high-profile terrorist named Abu Omar -- spirited off the streets of Milan by CIA agents in early 2003, according to criminal charges in an Italian court -- was transferred from one plane to another at the Ramstein base, en route to Cairo. This week the Berlin paper reported that a Hercules C-130 landed at Frankfurt around the same time, refuelled, and took off for Baku, Azerbaijan. That flight led to an official complaint from Vienna after it showed up unexpectedly on Austrian radar.

German officials assumed this rash of flights had ended; but on Friday the business daily Handelsblatt quotes a U.S. intelligence source claiming that "nothing has changed." Handelsblatt adds that American intelligence sources have also confirmed the existence of two secret prisons in Romania and Poland, where suspected terrorists were interrogated by CIA agents. (EU investigators are looking for satellite pictures of those camps.) "Similar 'black sites' reportedly exist in other European countries," writes the paper.

Investigations into similar flights have started all over Europe -- in Spain, Sweden, Iceland, and Britain, among other countries -- and the EU has asked for details from all its member nations. In Berlin, a member of the opposition Free Democrats thinks Merkel's new foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, needs to raise a stink with the U.S. ambassador. "If the allegations are true," Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger told the Berliner Zeitung last week, "that would be outrageous."

...

Is anyone really surprised ?

Under the furry coat of freedom and democracy the US uses methods that are surprisingly close to action commited throughout the time the 3rd Reich was active in europe.

I guess that´s not the kind of freedom and democracy anyone here in europe needs to have...

[billybob2002 0]

Exporting torture and breaches of international law worldwide:

Secret CIA Flights Won't Go Away

Quote[/b] ]...

On Tuesday, the Berliner Zeitung reported that American airbases in Germany had been used as pit stops for at least six secret flights, including the two most high-profile missions in the unfolding story of so-called "extraordinary renditions." For some time it's been suspected that a high-profile terrorist named Abu Omar -- spirited off the streets of Milan by CIA agents in early 2003, according to criminal charges in an Italian court -- was transferred from one plane to another at the Ramstein base, en route to Cairo. This week the Berlin paper reported that a Hercules C-130 landed at Frankfurt around the same time, refuelled, and took off for Baku, Azerbaijan. That flight led to an official complaint from Vienna after it showed up unexpectedly on Austrian radar.

German officials assumed this rash of flights had ended; but on Friday the business daily Handelsblatt quotes a U.S. intelligence source claiming that "nothing has changed." Handelsblatt adds that American intelligence sources have also confirmed the existence of two secret prisons in Romania and Poland, where suspected terrorists were interrogated by CIA agents. (EU investigators are looking for satellite pictures of those camps.) "Similar 'black sites' reportedly exist in other European countries," writes the paper.

Investigations into similar flights have started all over Europe -- in Spain, Sweden, Iceland, and Britain, among other countries -- and the EU has asked for details from all its member nations. In Berlin, a member of the opposition Free Democrats thinks Merkel's new foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, needs to raise a stink with the U.S. ambassador. "If the allegations are true," Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger told the Berliner Zeitung last week, "that would be outrageous."

...

Is anyone really surprised ?  

Under the furry coat of freedom and democracy the US uses methods that are surprisingly close to action commited throughout the time the 3rd Reich was active in europe.

I guess that´s not the kind of freedom and democracy anyone here in europe needs to have...

You get a good star, today! I'm up in the air about "torture", which is a broad word, but I don't agree with the pulling out of the nail like the Nazis did and very brutual torture. I believe "torture" should be applied on limited cases.

The History Channel aired a show about the issue of torture and its effectiveness. Arguably it was one case but interesting. The case was CIA Agent Keith Hall usage of torture in Lebananon to find out who were the masterminds behind the U.S. Embassy bombing in Beirut. Basically, he was pissed that all of his information was not passed along to Reagan like he thought it would. The information he got from the PLO spy, who worked at the Embassy, was he was the one that informed the suicide bombers that some CIA officials were in the building and it was time to strike. Also, everything goes back to Iranian intelligence (also Hezbollah). The PLO individual was found dead in his cell after Hall told the Lebanese who were helping the CIA to guard this individual because of the information he got. The TV producers also interview some Lebanese ex-officials to get more information. Keith Hall was punished for his actions and says he was the only one punished for the Embassy bombing. He speculates that once the CIA found out how deep the planning for the bombing was, the CIA wanted to hear no more.

[denoir 0]

From BBC:

Quote[/b] ]

Should the views of the religious right, many of whom are Republican party supporters, be adopted by the US government? In Washington, Justin Webb considers the implications and asks whether politics and religion make a good mix.

We are having dinner at the house of some friends who are supporters of President Bush. Their five-year-old son, a classmate of our children, takes me upstairs to see his collection of dinosaurs.

Little Meade is a passionate palaeontologist and this is a land of plenty so the room heaves with prehistoric life.

I am suitably impressed, but unknown to Meade I am not here to admire the bone structure of the mammals. I am in this room on assignment, because in modern America Meade's dinosaurs are at the heart of the travails of a political party and I need to find out something about Meade's parents which will affect our relationship. I need to know what they told him about when the dinosaurs existed.

Millions of Americans, most of them supporters of the Republican party, believe that the world was created only a few thousand years ago as per the account in Genesis and the dinosaurs can only date from then, so the Tyrannosaurus Rex romped around with Adam and Eve.

In other words these Americans, heirs to every scientific advance in history, deny rational accounts of how the world came to exist.  And Meade's parents - I know his mum teaches Sunday school - might be among them.

I put the question to Meade: "When did the dinosaurs live?"

There is an agonising pause as he considers it. American children are wonderfully earnest and Meade is not going to be rushed.

Eventually he says it is in a book his Dad bought him.

We hunt the tome, find it, open the page and behold a diagram which has been explained to Meade.

It all floods back.

The dinosaurs, he informs me with great authority and aplomb, are millions and millions and millions of years old. I could have hugged him and his parents; we are, after all, inhabiting the same mental planet. But many modern members of the Republican party, including some in positions of great power, do not seem to be living on that planet.

Central question

As the nation recovers this weekend from the worldly pleasures of the wonderfully inclusive festival of Thanksgiving, a festival which can appeal equally to atheist and Bible-basher, it seems to me that the central political question facing everyone here, far more important than any to do with Iraq or the deficit or Guantanamo Bay, is whether or not the Republican party, after decades of flirting, has finally got into bed with an irrational sect.

Describe an American as a Roman Catholic and you say nothing about his or her political and social beliefs.

Left-wing flower-power Democrats can be Catholics, so can right-wing socially conservative Republicans.

American Jews, Hindus, even Muslims are not politically defined by their faith. But evangelical Christians, operating inside the Republican party, have coalesced their energies and their resources around a set of beliefs on homosexuality, abortion and Darwinism which place them on the authoritarian right of every political question and at odds with science campaigning. For instance, to tell visitors to the Grand Canyon that this wondrous sight is not millions of years old, which it is.

Backlash

In the state of Kansas they have succeeded in getting the science syllabus altered so that teachers can tell their pupils that God made everything in its current form - a change the National Academy of Sciences said "would put the students of Kansas at a competitive disadvantage as they took their place in the world."

This is serious stuff and Republicans who are not evangelical Christians have in recent weeks been organising a fight-back. They have noticed two things. Number one, that the zealots are spending more energy fighting Charles Darwin than cutting taxes, and number two - and this is much more important - that the zealots outside Kansas are not receiving the support of the nation at large.

In the town of Dover, Pennsylvania, the local school board managed this year to get warmed up, creationism infiltrated into biology classes, and here is what happened. A couple of weeks ago all eight members of the board who were up for re-election lost their seats.

"If there is a disaster in your area," the tele-evangelist Pat Robertson told the people of Dover, "don't turn to God - you just rejected Him from your city."

Mr Robertson is an important man: the former Attorney General John Ashcroft teaches at his university, and his views are sought on Supreme Court candidates and foreign affairs.

Republican doubts

But should those views govern the Republican party?

Many members think not, particularly since President Bush is himself in such dire trouble now. He famously told an interviewer that when deciding to go to war in Iraq he listened to the authority not of his dad but of a Higher Father.

And, Republicans are daring to think, if not quite say, out loud: "Look where that got him."

I find what is going on in America quite interesting, and I find it a bit difficult to understand. I mean in Europe teaching creationism or "intelligent design" is considered as archaic as teaching that the earth is flat or that the universe revolves around Earth - even our religious fundamentalist would not suggest something like that being taught in school.

What's interesting about America is that it is so completely out of line with the rest of the industrialized world on religion. Everywhere else, religion has been toned down and phased out with scientific and social progress taking place. Not so in America. Why is that? Is it bad education? Is it isolation?

Is it historical? The American "founding fathers" were certainly not very religious people, but the Mayflower bunch were. Is this a result of religious fanatics fleeing Europe 200 years ago?

I don't think it is that though. If you look at this study: "Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies", you'll see some interesting correlations.

The big question here is what is cause and what is effect. Is  a high level of teen-pregnancies the result of lack of proper sex-ed, thanks to religion, or is the religion strong and needed because of high level of teen pregnancies, homicides etc?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]The big question here is what is cause and what is effect. Is  a high level of teen-pregnancies the result of lack of proper sex-ed, thanks to religion, or is the religion strong and needed because of high level of teen pregnancies, homicides etc?

On the issue of teen pregnancies, the teenage birth rate (15-19) has been declining and is the lowest ever recorded with 41.2 births per 1,000 (NCHS data from 2004). Adolescents aged 10-14 was the lowest since 1946 with 0.7 births per 1,000(NCHS data from 2004). This is the Fundamental Christian America since Bush as been in office, right?

Anyway, I think it is difficult to give a clear cut answer why teen pregnanices, homicide, and other ills are higher than the rest of the industrial world. One reason is that the US is simply fundamentally different in many aspect of life compared to other Western Countries (i.e. the social net which is much lower than alot of countries). I say BULLSHIT for placing all social ills today because of religion.

[Sophion-Black 0]

Exporting torture and breaches of international law worldwide:

Secret CIA Flights Won't Go Away

torture? were in that article did you see torture? there's that witch hunt again.

take a look at the US superpower that should some up everything.

anyways, this might be a CIA transport to bag selected targets.

Quote[/b] ]The big question here is what is cause and what is effect. Is a high level of teen-pregnancies the result of lack of proper sex-ed, thanks to religion, or is the religion strong and needed because of high level of teen pregnancies, homicides etc?

[no coment on account of wide speculation]

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]The big question here is what is cause and what is effect. Is  a high level of teen-pregnancies the result of lack of proper sex-ed, thanks to religion, or is the religion strong and needed because of high level of teen pregnancies, homicides etc?

On the issue of teen pregnancies, the teenage birth rate (15-19) has been declining and is the lowest ever recorded with 41.2 births per 1,000 (NCHS data from 2004). Adolescents aged 10-14 was the lowest since 1946 with 0.7 births per 1,000(NCHS data from 2004). This is the Fundamental Christian America since Bush as been in office, right?

Anyway, I think it is difficult to give a clear cut answer why teen pregnanices, homicide, and other ills are higher than the rest of the industrial world. One reason is that the US is simply fundamentally different in many aspect of life compared to other Western Countries (i.e. the social net which is much lower than alot of countries). I say BULLSHIT for placing all social ills today because of religion.

Yeah, I don't think that religion is to blame for the social problems, but don't you find it a bit odd that a Christian stronghold has such a poor track record on the issues it supposedly cares a lot about (like abortions)?

As for the social net, absolutely, a lot can be connected to that. Still, things like teen pregnancies, abortions, VTDs can hardly be blamed on lack of social security. It's not like people are too poor to buy a condom. It would rather point to lack of education and irresponsible behaviour - and these people have on average been brought up by supposedly pious Christians. That's what I find remarkable.

The main question however that I asked was why America is so religious compared to the rest of the industrialized world.

Sophion:

Quote[/b] ][no coment on account of wide speculation]

It's not speculation, it's statistics. You have four possible choices:

1) religion and social problems are uncorrelated.

2) religion causes social problems

3) social problems cause religion

4) A third factor causes both religion and social problems

1) is unlikely as the data in the graphs shows a clear pattern across independent parameters.

2) and 3) was my question.

4) is of course possible - that there is a third variable that causes both religion and social problems.

[Major Fubar 0]

Everyone please remember, if you must bring religion into the debate, please try to do so in a respectful (or at least, non-flaming) way. Remember that many people are passionate about their religions, and it is always a very sensitive subject. Ideally, it would be better if religion could be kept as a seperate debate from politics altogether.

I'm not asking anyone to change their views on the matter, but do try to refrain from being unneccesairly insulting. Thanks.

[Sophion-Black 0]

Sophion:

Quote[/b] ][no coment on account of wide speculation]

It's not speculation, it's statistics. You have four possible choices:

1) religion and social problems are uncorrelated.

2) religion causes social problems

3) social problems cause religion

4) A third factor causes both religion and social problems

its difficult to answer this question. it could be answered in many ways. it depends on what your views are.

1) this could be an answer for a very religious person were he thinks that his religion is to help others instead of hurting

2) this could be an answer to a person losing faith in their religion were he is looking for an excuse to loose is religion completely

3) this could be the answer for a person not having a religion and is tired of religion creeping within their life

4) lets be more definite, animals don't cause both religious and social problems. Resources don't cause religious and social problems. Plants, or anything natural on this earth does not cause religious or social problems. People. that is what causes problems. one man wants to do abortion but another man thinks its wrong. that becomes a problem. not because of religious beliefs, or social problems. but how a man values his surroundings, how he grows. take the Soviet Union and the United States during the cold war. Their ideology is what caused problems. Competition. Man creates problems simply because we think our beliefs, our way of life, should be the only way of life. the only belief.

that is why I'm not answering that question. this is a question that could be swayed one way or another. its how you view it.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Once Again Karl Rove is under the special prosecutors microscope in the Traitorgate trials.

Quote[/b] ]Another Time Reporter Agrees to Testify

A Second Time Magazine Reporter Agrees to Testify in CIA Leak Case About Talks With Rove's Lawyer

AP Reports on ABC News

WASHINGTON Nov 27, 2005 — A second Time magazine reporter has agreed to cooperate in the CIA leak case and will testify about her discussions with Karl Rove's attorney, a sign that prosecutors are still exploring charges against the White House aide.

Viveca Novak, a reporter in Time's Washington bureau, is cooperating with Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, who is investigating the leak of CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity in 2003, the magazine reported in its Dec. 5 issue.

Novak specifically has been asked to testify under oath about conversations she had with Rove attorney Robert Luskin starting in May 2004, the magazine reported.

Novak, part of a team tracking the CIA case for Time, has written or contributed to articles in which Luskin characterized the nature of what was said between Rove and Matthew Cooper, the first Time reporter who testified in the case.

Cooper appeared before the grand jury in July after Time surrendered his notes and e-mail detailing a conversation with Rove. Cooper agreed to talk and avoid jail after disclosing that his source now confirmed to be Rove released him from his confidentiality agreement.

A grand jury indicted I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, on perjury and obstruction charges on Oct. 28. Fitzgerald said in court papers earlier this month that he will present additional evidence to another grand jury...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1350038

Follow link for the full story!

Clearly Karl Rove is now the subject of the Second Grand Jury and by letting Woodward speak about it in the hope of drawing the scent away from Libby, TBA have pointed the finger right back at Karl Rove.

Woodward has refused to, name under oath, the senior administration official that outed Valerie Wilson (nee Plame) as a CIA NOC agent to him, but obviously the chief suspect is Karl Rove. Woodward was just one of the journalists that senior TBA officials including Karl Rove deliberately leaked to.

Valerie Wilson (nee Plame) was the CIA NOC agent in charge of the WMD inteligence at a time when such work is of national importance.

Regards Walker

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]The big question here is what is cause and what is effect. Is a high level of teen-pregnancies the result of lack of proper sex-ed, thanks to religion, or is the religion strong and needed because of high level of teen pregnancies, homicides etc?

On the issue of teen pregnancies, the teenage birth rate (15-19) has been declining and is the lowest ever recorded with 41.2 births per 1,000 (NCHS data from 2004). Adolescents aged 10-14 was the lowest since 1946 with 0.7 births per 1,000(NCHS data from 2004). This is the Fundamental Christian America since Bush as been in office, right?

Anyway, I think it is difficult to give a clear cut answer why teen pregnanices, homicide, and other ills are higher than the rest of the industrial world. One reason is that the US is simply fundamentally different in many aspect of life compared to other Western Countries (i.e. the social net which is much lower than alot of countries). I say BULLSHIT for placing all social ills today because of religion.

Yeah, I don't think that religion is to blame for the social problems, but don't you find it a bit odd that a Christian stronghold has such a poor track record on the issues it supposedly cares a lot about (like abortions)?

As for the social net, absolutely, a lot can be connected to that. Still, things like teen pregnancies, abortions, VTDs can hardly be blamed on lack of social security. It's not like people are too poor to buy a condom. It would rather point to lack of education and irresponsible behaviour - and these people have on average been brought up by supposedly pious Christians. That's what I find remarkable.

The main question however that I asked was why America is so religious compared to the rest of the industrialized world.

You also have to take in the consideration that the divorce rates and teenage pregnacies amongst the the more conservative american christians and states are higher when compared against their bit more.. pragmatic counterparts. Murder rates seem to be higher in red states.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]The big question here is what is cause and what is effect. Is  a high level of teen-pregnancies the result of lack of proper sex-ed, thanks to religion, or is the religion strong and needed because of high level of teen pregnancies, homicides etc?

On the issue of teen pregnancies, the teenage birth rate (15-19) has been declining and is the lowest ever recorded with 41.2 births per 1,000 (NCHS data from 2004). Adolescents aged 10-14 was the lowest since 1946 with 0.7 births per 1,000(NCHS data from 2004). This is the Fundamental Christian America since Bush as been in office, right?

Anyway, I think it is difficult to give a clear cut answer why teen pregnanices, homicide, and other ills are higher than the rest of the industrial world. One reason is that the US is simply fundamentally different in many aspect of life compared to other Western Countries (i.e. the social net which is much lower than alot of countries). I say BULLSHIT for placing all social ills today because of religion.

Yeah, I don't think that religion is to blame for the social problems, but don't you find it a bit odd that a Christian stronghold has such a poor track record on the issues it supposedly cares a lot about (like abortions)?

As for the social net, absolutely, a lot can be connected to that. Still, things like teen pregnancies, abortions, VTDs can hardly be blamed on lack of social security. It's not like people are too poor to buy a condom. It would rather point to lack of education and irresponsible behaviour - and these people have on average been brought up by supposedly pious Christians. That's what I find remarkable.

The main question however that I asked was why America is so religious compared to the rest of the industrialized world.

You also have to take in the consideration that the divorce rates and teenage pregnacies amongst the the more conservative american christians and states are higher when compared against their bit more.. pragmatic counterparts. Murder rates seem to be higher in red states.

Just because it is a "red" state does not mean all counties and cities are republican and uber-christian. The cities that are the most dangerous are usually democratic strongholds and liberal (source: http://www.morganquitno.com/cit05pop.htm ).

More later...

[Akira 0]

Are you trying to equate liberal and democratic idealogy to urban decay and a rise in crime statistics?

The only correlation you can make is that 1) all the top listed are major urban areas, and 2) they have a large black population up to Hartford.

Large urban areas are known Democratic areas for the exact reason of Number 2. Now if I can make an equally make an assumption about "red" states and their religious/political ideology. i drove through the "heartland" of America from Austin to Indianapolis and to qoute Ghostbusters "I have seen shit that will turn you white."

The 300+ foot white cross outside of St. Louis and the radio stations alone are enough...

[billybob2002 0]

Are you trying to equate liberal and democratic idealogy to urban decay and a rise in crime statistics?

The only correlation you can make is that 1) all the top listed are major urban areas, and 2) they have a large black population up to Hartford.

Large urban areas are known Democratic areas for the exact reason of Number 2.  Now if I can make an equally make an assumption about "red" states and their religious/political ideology. i drove through the "heartland" of America from Austin to Indianapolis and to qoute Ghostbusters "I have seen shit that will turn you white."

The 300+ foot white cross outside of St. Louis and the radio stations alone are enough...

You could equate liberal ideology and "urban decay" do to the fact that it is the most dominant ideology in those cities with major social ills. However, that is a whole different set of beans. I'm implying that there are "blue" areas, areas that are considered liberal and more secular, that have just as much crime as "red" areas and even more. If I took Maryland and compared it to Virginia, which both are considered apart of the South in the UCR, Virginia as less violent crime rate per 100,000 and murder/manslaughter rate per 100,000. You have to look at each county and etc., and not just look at the state as a whole to come to a conclusion.

Going back to what Denior said that more secular areas tend to have less of a STD problem, well, San Francisco as the highest rate in the nation of P&S syphilis.

[Major Fubar 0]

After some discussion between the mods, it has been decided that religious debate really has no place on these boards. Those who believe believe, those who do not, do not. In our experience religious debate generally carries a high emotional charge, and a high risk of bad feelings and flaming/flame baiting.

I realise that sometimes religion and politics are fairly heavily entwined, but we ask that people please refrain from bringing religion into this (or any) debate as much as possible.

We don't want to stifle anyone's point of view, but we need to weigh this up against the smooth running of the forum, and keeping people from (inadvertantly) offending anyone's beliefs (or lack of beliefs). Thank you.

[Balschoiw 0]

[offtopic mode on]

I bet you had a talk to Devil Llauma, Fubar

[offtopic mode off]

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2005....ex.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (AP) -- Former Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff says President Bush was "too aloof, too distant from the details" of post-war planning, allowing underlings to exploit Bush's detachment and make bad decisions.

In an Associated Press interview Monday, former Powell chief of staff Lawrence Wilkerson also said that wrongheaded ideas for the handling of foreign detainees after Sept. 11 arose from a coterie of White House and Pentagon aides who argued that "the president of the United States is all-powerful," and that the Geneva Conventions were irrelevant.

Wilkerson blamed Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and like-minded aides. Wilkerson said that Cheney must have sincerely believed that Iraq could be a spawning ground for new terror assaults, because "otherwise I have to declare him a moron, an idiot or a nefarious bastard."

Wilkerson suggested his former boss may agree with him that Bush was too hands-off about Iraq.

"What he seems to be saying to me now is the president failed to discipline the process the way he should have and that the president is ultimately responsible for this whole mess," Wilkerson said.

He said Powell now generally believes it was a good idea to remove Saddam Hussein from power, but may not agree with either the timing or execution of the war. Wilkerson said Powell may have had doubts about the extent of the threat posed by Saddam Hussein but was convinced by then-CIA Director George Tenet and others that the intelligence girding the push toward war was sound.

Powell was widely regarded as a dove to Cheney's and Rumsfeld's hawks, but he made a forceful case for war before the United Nations Security Council in February, 2003, a month before the invasion. At one point, he said Saddam possessed mobile labs to make weapons of mass destruction that were never found.

Cheney may have deliberately ignored contrary intelligence

Wilkerson criticized the CIA and other agencies for allowing mishandled and bogus information to underpin that speech and the whole administration case for war.

He said he has almost, but not quite, concluded that Cheney and others in the administration deliberately ignored evidence of bad intelligence and looked only at what supported their case for war.

A newly declassified Defense Intelligence Agency document from February 2002 said that an al Qaeda military instructor was probably misleading his interrogators about training that the terror group's members received from Iraq on chemical, biological and radiological weapons. Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi reportedly recanted his statements in January 2004. (Full Story)

A presidential intelligence commission also dissected how spy agencies handled an Iraqi refugee who was a German intelligence source. Codenamed Curveball, this man who was a leading source on Iraq's purported mobile biological weapons labs was found to be a fabricator and alcoholic.

On the question of detainees picked up in Afghanistan and other fronts on the war on terror, Wilkerson said Bush heard two sides of an impassioned argument within his administration. Abuse of prisoners, and even the deaths of some who had been interrogated in Afghanistan and elsewhere, have bruised the U.S. image abroad and undermined fragile support for the Iraq war that followed.

Cheney's office, Rumsfeld aides and others argued "that the president of the United States is all-powerful, that as commander in chief the president of the United States can do anything he damn well pleases," Wilkerson said.

On the other side were Powell, others at the State Department and top military brass, and occasionally then-national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, Wilkerson said.

Powell raised frequent and loud objections, his former aide said, once yelling into a telephone at Rumsfeld: "Donald, don't you understand what you are doing to our image?"

Wilkerson also said he did not disclose to Bob Woodward that administration critic Joseph Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, joining the growing list of past and current Bush administration officials who have denied being the Washington Post reporter's source.

Seems like Powell was the last group of people who had some common sense in the administration.

[Supah 0]

I think that the handling of prisoners by the USA at the moment is probably an explosion waiting to happen. In a way I feel it is a sign that america is losing the war on terror because its leadership fails to realise that this is not a war for teritory or natural resources but one of ideologies and that everytime the US tortures a prisoners or denies him rights which he should have under the geneva convention they become a little more like the persons they are claiming to fight. Every prisoner at Guantanamo or in a secret torture cell in poland or rumania is a victory for Osama bin Laden.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/28/cunningham/index.html

Quote[/b] ](CNN) -- Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham said Monday he is resigning from Congress after pleading guilty to taking more than $2 million in bribes in a criminal conspiracy involving at least three defense contractors.

After entering his plea in San Diego, California, the eight-term California Republican said he was "deeply sorry."

"The truth is I broke the law, concealed my conduct and disgraced my office," he told reporters, his voice strained with emotion. "I know I will forfeit my reputation, my worldly possessions -- most importantly the trust of my friends and family."

Asked by U.S. District Judge Larry Burns if he had accepted cash and gifts and then tried to influence the Defense Department on behalf of the donors, Cunningham said, "Yes, your honor."

Cunningham's plea agreement with federal prosecutors stemmed from an investigation of the 2003 sale of his California home to a defense contractor for an inflated price.

Under the agreement, Cunningham acknowledged a conspiracy to commit bribery, mail and wire fraud and tax evasion. He also pleaded guilty to a separate tax evasion violation for failing to disclose income in 2004.

For those of you who are not airforce types, he is the one who had the famous duel over Vietnam, and his tactic was later immortalized in the movie Top Gun.

Seems like Republicans are getting into the same muddle that they have accused Democrats of.

[Tovarish 0]

Yes, the original Mr. "I'll hit the brakes and he'll fly right by", who is supposed to have shot down the legendary Col. Tomb - who, according to the North Vietnamese Air Force, never existed.

[harley 3 1185 0]

Yes, the original Mr. "I'll hit the brakes and he'll fly right by", who is supposed to have shot down the legendary Col. Tomb - who, according to the North Vietnamese Air Force, never existed.

Kinda like Adolf Galland chatting to his Argentinian buddies after the war; "Ja, I shot down that English schwein Bigglesworth, my 112th kill."

Pity he didn't resign before the damn hearing, I might have thought just a teeny bit more of him.

[Supah 0]

Yes, the original Mr. "I'll hit the brakes and he'll fly right by", who is supposed to have shot down the legendary Col. Tomb - who, according to the North Vietnamese Air Force, never existed.

The Vietnamese airforce has made some pretty wild claims about their losses or victories. They may or may not have fabricated Colonel Tomb's existance. We will pbb never know for sure. Facts is Duke shot down 3 enemy aircraft that day. That was a great feat of him. Taking bribes wasn't such a great feat of him. Seems to be a bit of a rash in washington in general and the republican party in particular.

[ozanzac 0]

Quote[/b] ]Clemency forestalls nation’s 1,000th execution

RICHMOND, Va. - Virginia’s governor on Tuesday spared the life of a convicted killer who would have been the 1,000th person executed in the United States since the Supreme Court allowed capital punishment to resume in 1976.

Robin Lovitt’s death sentence was commuted to life in prison without parole a little more than 24 hours before he was to be executed by injection Wednesday night for stabbing a man to death with a pair of scissors during a 1998 pool-hall robbery.

In granting clemency, Gov. Mark R. Warner noted that evidence from the trial had been improperly destroyed, depriving the defense of the opportunity to subject the material to the latest in DNA testing.

Warner, a Democrat, had never before granted clemency to a death row inmate during his four years in office. During that time, 11 men have been executed. Virginia is one of the most active death-penalty states, having executed 94 people since 1976.

The 1,000th execution is now scheduled for Friday in North Carolina, where Kenneth Lee Boyd is slated to die for killing his estranged wife and her father.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10251767/

Is the death penalty still warranted in first world nations?

edit: Very weird post layout fixed.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Clemency forestalls nation’s 1,000th execution

RICHMOND, Va. - Virginia’s governor on Tuesday spared the life of a convicted killer who would have been the 1,000th person executed in the United States since the Supreme Court allowed capital punishment to resume in 1976.

Robin Lovitt’s death sentence was commuted to life in prison without parole a little more than 24 hours before he was to be executed by injection Wednesday night for stabbing a man to death with a pair of scissors during a 1998 pool-hall robbery.

In granting clemency, Gov. Mark R. Warner noted that evidence from the trial had been improperly destroyed, depriving the defense of the opportunity to subject the material to the latest in DNA testing.

Warner, a Democrat, had never before granted clemency to a death row inmate during his four years in office. During that time, 11 men have been executed. Virginia is one of the most active death-penalty states, having executed 94 people since 1976.

The 1,000th execution is now scheduled for Friday in North Carolina, where Kenneth Lee Boyd is slated to die for killing his estranged wife and her father.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10251767/

Is the death penalty still warranted in first world nations?

edit: Very weird post layout fixed.

Some people deserve the death penalty.

[Tovarish 0]

The Vietnamese airforce has made some pretty wild claims about their losses or victories. They may or may not have fabricated Colonel Tomb's existance. We will pbb never know for sure. Facts is Duke shot down 3 enemy aircraft that day. That was a great feat of him. Taking bribes wasn't such a great feat of him. Seems to be a bit of a rash in washington in general and the republican party in particular.

Not refuting that shooting down three aircraft in a day is a great accomplishment...

just pointing out that none of them were the highest scoring Vietnamese ace, who was in fact Nguyen Van Coc, 9 kills, 7 confirmed. The Vietnamese propaganda machine had nothing to do with Col. Tomb/Toon, he was more of a urban legend among U.S. pilots. We would have surely heard more about him if he was real, and to the Vietnamese a dead hero was just as good as a live one - in fact better, they would have had a martyr, so no sense in them covering up his death.

And one last wildly offtopic remark - I think his tactic as immortalized in Top Gun may be the greatest disservice done to budding flight sim pilots. I know I tried it when I was just starting out in multiplayer dogfights, and promptly got a burning fuselage full of holes for my troubles. Later, when I knew better, I still saw new pilots trying it out on me, and they went down pretty quick. Even if the initial move works, it leaves you at a serious energy disadvantage, so you'd better hope he flies right into your gun sight A la Top Gun, else you can accelerate twice as fast as him

*edit* dang, can't spell toaday

[harley 3 1185 0]

If you are a serial killer, with at least 5 homicides to your credit (and God forbid, there are people like that out there, then you should get the death penalty. People like that would never be released, obviously will never have any place in society and quite frankly it's cheaper than having them lurk around the system for the rest of their natural lives.

I find it very iffy that a court can sentence a first-time offender to death where it's difficult to distinguish between an accidental killing or pre-meditated (in certain states), so if you must have the death penalty, make it foolproof and quick.

"You killed 5 people. Bang. Guilty. Bang. No possiblility of appeal."

"Sentencing tomorrow..."

"You will go from this place to a place of execution where you will die by lethal injection/firing squad/electricity at dawn tomorrow."

Quick, simple, and unless the D.A.'s office or the U.S. Attorney's Office has been fixing the records, it's fool proof.

I was generally opposed to the death penalty, as my thought was "Where does society get to judge that another person should die?" Then I thought it was wrong, that here in Britain for example, Mass-Killers such as Harold Shipman should have the benefit of being able to kill themselves not long into a life-term without justice being done. The death penalty should only be used in cases which cry out for it, "Man kills family, passers-by, wounds himself but fails." "Serial Rapist/Killer, caught." Killing one person, however malicious, is enough to warrant being stuck in a Penitentiary (a bad one) for long enough to get a sore backside, but the more dastardly crimes one committs, the tougher the consequences ought to be; and despite how awful some prison conditions may be in the U.S.A., death is the ultimate punishment.