Russia may canonize soldier

[desantnik 0]

Poor guy  

Catholic pages

Christian ForumsYahoo news

His mothers website

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yahoo news

Wrong link....

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm....aint_dc

Anyway, that is a sad story.

[FSPilot 0]

I really feel sorry for him. I don't understand how somebody could remain strong after everybody had turned their backs on him.

[denoir 0]

One religious fanatic not giving into other religious fanatics.

Hardly a postive example for the world. They should save sainthood for people that have done something positive for others. Excessive stubbornness is not what I would characterize as a positive trait.

[JdB 151]

One religious fanatic not giving into other religious fanatics.

Oh, so when I say to a Muslim (whom there are plenty of here) that I am a christian, then I am a religious fanatic?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Interesting to read, but to me it sounds rather like a nice "christian" tale. I do not remember any other comparable story and therefore I may doubt it is fully true.

Initially it was rather the christian side that forced other cultures to adopt christianity or face death penalty.

Anyhow. Any smart person would have understood that denying god under pressure for once would not make you burn in hell or become a sinner.

He should have said yes, be relieved and then go to church the next sunday. End of the tale. Silly russian propaganda.

[turms 0]

He was killed by chechen rebels becouse he was an russian soldier.

[kerosene 0]

The wanted him to fight against Russians, that probably had more to do with the refusal than denying his faith, he couldnt have just snuck off to a church and fixed it later.

"many Russians are pressing the Orthodox church to canonize him as a saint, martyred in a holy war against Islam."

Kinda scary really.

[denoir 0]

One religious fanatic not giving into other religious fanatics.  

Oh, so when I say to a Muslim (whom there are plenty of here) that I am a christian, then I am a religious fanatic?

When you rather have your head cut off then to temporarily renounce your faith, then yes.

[MSpencer 0]

Renounce your faith to kill others? There's no turning back after you've turned your AK74 on your own platoon mates.

I wouldn't be able to do it. I would be beheaded before I betrayed my friends. Worse, betrayal in Chechnya means death. And there's no real guarantee that a 'stray' bullet wouldn't go into his head after he helped kill 20 or so Russians in an attack on a convoy or two.

[theavonlady 2]

One religious fanatic not giving into other religious fanatics.  

Oh, so when I say to a Muslim (whom there are plenty of here) that I am a christian, then I am a religious fanatic?

When you rather have your head cut off then to temporarily renounce your faith, then yes.

Spoken like a true secular fanatic.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

One religious fanatic not giving into other religious fanatics.  

Oh, so when I say to a Muslim (whom there are plenty of here) that I am a christian, then I am a religious fanatic?

When you rather have your head cut off then to temporarily renounce your faith, then yes.

Spoken like a true secular fanatic.

but corresponds to the opinion of a christian with a brain!

[theavonlady 2]

One religious fanatic not giving into other religious fanatics.  

Oh, so when I say to a Muslim (whom there are plenty of here) that I am a christian, then I am a religious fanatic?

When you rather have your head cut off then to temporarily renounce your faith, then yes.

Spoken like a true secular fanatic.

but corresponds to the opinion of a christian with a brain!

Severed or attached?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

One religious fanatic not giving into other religious fanatics.  

Oh, so when I say to a Muslim (whom there are plenty of here) that I am a christian, then I am a religious fanatic?

When you rather have your head cut off then to temporarily renounce your faith, then yes.

Spoken like a true secular fanatic.

but corresponds to the opinion of a christian with a brain!

So believing makes you brainless (pun definitely not intended)

[denoir 0]

Renounce your faith to kill others? There's no turning back after you've turned your AK74 on your own platoon mates.

It wasn't a question of killing his friends, it was a question of converting. He chose death over even pretending to convert, which makes him a nut.

Avon:

Quote[/b] ]

Spoken like a true secular fanatic.

Not quite. If somebody put a gun to my head and gave me the choice of saying that there is a God or getting my brains blown out, I would very quickly say that there is a God. It's called reason. Had I been a secular fanatic, I'd chosen getting my brains blown out. (Incidentally you won't find many secular suicide bombers, crusaders, martyrs or inquisitors - hmm, I wonder how come..)

Anyway, I think you are in the right place in the world Avon. You obviously want religion to influence politics, and picking the Mid East as a place to live is obviously the right choice for you. Enjoy your martyrs and dark ages.

[theavonlady 2]

Renounce your faith to kill others? There's no turning back after you've turned your AK74 on your own platoon mates.

It wasn't a question of killing his friends, it was a question of converting. He chose death over even pretending to convert, which makes him a nut.

Avon:

Quote[/b] ]

Spoken like a true secular fanatic.

Not quite. If somebody put a gun to my head and gave me the choice of saying that there is a God or getting my brains blown out, I would very quickly say that there is a God. It's called reason. Had I been a secular fanatic, I'd chosen getting my brains blown out.

No you wouldn't have. As a secular fanatic you have no obligations otherwise. While I cannot speak for Christian religious law, the Torah commands Jews to accept death under certain extreme circumstances, one being similar to this case.

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, I think you are in the right place in the world Avon. You obviously want religion to influence politics, and picking the Mid East as a place to live is obviously the right choice for you. Enjoy your martyrs and dark ages.

I'm interested in life. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

But Avon, well then lets thank god that many jewish communities did not stick to this law in the past otherwise there would be no more on this planet.

Many superficially admitted they switched to christianity but continued to celebrate their fiests secretly in Catacombs.

[theavonlady 2]

But Avon, well then lets thank god that many jewish communities did not stick to this law in the past otherwise there would be no more on this planet.

1. This is simply not true.

2. Many did die this way and out of choice.

Quote[/b] ]Many superficially admitted they switched to christianity but continued to celebrate their fiests secretly in Catacombs.

These Jews transgressed a Jewish legal obligation but I'm not one to talk. I've not been in their shoes and I cannot really fathom what most of them went through.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Anyway, I think you are in the right place in the world Avon. You obviously want religion to influence politics, and picking the Mid East as a place to live is obviously the right choice for you. Enjoy your martyrs and dark ages.

What does the one have to do with the other?

[Foxtrot87 0]

Many people died for the ideas which are being realised now. For example, people died for democracy which the members of this forum are enjoying now. Should we call them fanatics? Calling Radionov a religious fanatic is awfull, how can you say that? He didn't blow himself up killing innocent people! People who can die for an idea change this world (and i hope to the better side). I'm not sure if i could die for one.

[desantnik 0]

thank you foxtrot.

I think you people are missing the point here. He is not just Russian propoganda (even though he will be used as such), he is a human being. I think that calling him a nut is very degrading to what he did which was lay down his life for his friends and his cause. You could say the same thing about muslims, yes, but also about any soldier that saved his buddies lives by losing his own.

Lets just be respectful.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Well I say they simply took the right choice: for their children and for the survival of their culture, their traditions and finally for their religion.

I have been to many catacombs and I think during these times staying alive was a harder choice than accepting death.

Have you ever had the chance to visit/enter a catacomb?

But of course I know that I speak from a different perspective and I dont claim that what I think must the truth.

[denoir 0]

Renounce your faith to kill others? There's no turning back after you've turned your AK74 on your own platoon mates.

It wasn't a question of killing his friends, it was a question of converting. He chose death over even pretending to convert, which makes him a nut.

Avon:

Quote[/b] ]

Spoken like a true secular fanatic.

Not quite. If somebody put a gun to my head and gave me the choice of saying that there is a God or getting my brains blown out, I would very quickly say that there is a God. It's called reason. Had I been a secular fanatic, I'd chosen getting my brains blown out.

No you wouldn't have. As a secular fanatic you have no obligations otherwise. While I cannot speak for Christian religious law, the Torah commands Jews to accept death under certain extreme circumstances, one being similar to this case.

So, just being secular is being a fanatic?

I've got news for you Avon, the reference is not yours or some other quirky religion or interpretation of some religion. The reference is universal human values -which is maximizing life and minimizing death.

If you think that your religious interpretations have preference over life and death, then you support suicide bombers as well. In their interpretation, they are martyrs, doing the right thing.

Quote[/b] ]I'm interested in life. Sorry to disappoint you.

Apparently not since you support death over even temporarily abandoning your religion.

Foxtrot:

Quote[/b] ]For example, people died for democracy which the members of this forum are enjoying now. Should we call them fanatics?

They died to maximize life. They did not die protecting the abstract idea of democracy, but the real practical thing which in the long run saves lives. Allowing yourself to be killed over faith has no universal life-saving or protecting effects.

Quote[/b] ]Calling Radionov a religious fanatic is awfull, how can you say that? He didn't blow himself up killing innocent people! People who can die for an idea change this world (and i hope to the better side).

He didn't die for an idea that would make the world better. He died for his private faith. Hurting other people or not has nothning to do with fanaticism. It is much more general than that - it has to do with choosing death because of a private belief - an arbitrary abstraction. Going from killing yourself (which he in effect did) for faith to killing others is not a very big one.

[denoir 0]

Anyway, I think you are in the right place in the world Avon. You obviously want religion to influence politics, and picking the Mid East as a place to live is obviously the right choice for you. Enjoy your martyrs and dark ages.

What does the one have to do with the other?

It has everything to do with it.

It is about choosing mysticism over reality. It has to do about letting an arbitrary thing like religion influence the development of society. We've been there before - several times. Sacrificing life for an abstraction is the ultimate boundary. You throw away the value of human life for a very abstract idea. That's what connects suicide bombings, concentration camps, gulags, crusades etc

The darkest moments of human history can all be traced to periods where ideology has had preference over human values. For religion specifically, it's responsible for fucking up some 1,000 years of human development: the dark ages, where people chose dogma over humanism; where people chose mysticism over science; where people chose religion over life.

[sanctuary 19]

If you think that your religious interpretations have preference over life and death, then you support suicide bombers as well. In their interpretation, they are martyrs, doing the right thing.

Comparing people that refuse to abandon their actual faith to convert to another , despite being under a life threatening situation and someone that will kill several innocent people , leaving his own life in the process...

Of course people thinking that someone refusing to abandon their faith in such situation support suicide bombers.

Wow, that is one of the biggest shortcut i ever see, one of the most dumb one too.