Gunmen take 200+ student hostages

[AKM74. 0]

100% agree. I never sad all of them was. But stalin only deport 30% of chechnya population. Not all of them eather.

i just think it will be little fair if Appolo ask "why millions of peoples was send to gulag by Stalin, and Chechen was only deported ?" Why other have punished much harder.

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]whose fault is it? after Russians were defeated they didn't do a squat.

Read Apollos post

Quote[/b] ]the second war would not have happened if Chechens did not attack Moscow or Dagestan. after first war, Russian didn't want to do anything, until Dagestan and bombing followed.

let me ask you this question. Why do you not condemn Chechens for starting the cycle again?

As I recal the bombings in the moscow was pointed at the Chechens but not proven, lot of accidents happend when people try to make explosives at their home, happend in sweden too. Correct me if Im wrong, it´s been a while. Cycle never stoped.

Quote[/b] ]It seems like to you Russian children are worth less than Chechen children cause you condone killing Russian children. I fail to see you condemn the perpetrators for Beslan incident.

´

Yeah I did, 5 times read my old posts. I dont worry about the 300, I worry about the 40.000 it´s a matter of quantity for me.

@supah I couldn´t agree more.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]100% agree. I never sad all of them was. But stalin only deport 30% of chechnya population. Not all of them eather.

i just think it will be little fair if Appolo ask "why millions of peoples was send to gulag by Stalin, and Chechen was only deported ?" Why other have punished much harder.

Million's? I said hundred's of thousand's ,not million's ,and those hundred's of thousands are about the 30% youre speaking of.

Even then ,the fact that so many nationality's collaberated with the German's in WW2 is easily explained by the oppresive regime imposed on country's it simply annexed under the mum of "it all belongs to mother russia".Russia outright conquered many country's from the 18th century onward with little to no Russian nationals living in it.Going from the baltic states to many Asian country's ,up to late in the 20th ceentury when it attacked Afhanistan for ex. .

Even then russia still has it's fair share in political meddling with independant country's these days ,for ex. Russia's support for various rebbelion factions in Georgia like South Ossetia.

As thus i think it's easy to support the notion that Russian federation is still an kinda imperialistic country ,who in the past attacked many many independant nations withought clear justifications for that.

In any case ,Russia seems more interrested to suck Thechia dry than actually rebuilding the country and as thus build peace even if it doesn't grant it independance.Changing the life conditions of so many Chechians could probably go a long way of preventing terrorism ,the way it's handled now however terrorism will probably only rise.

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]Russian Catholists

Orthodox Christianity is the majority religion of Russia. Once again ... oh forget it.

[AKM74. 0]

Quote[/b] ]Million's? I said hundred's of thousand's ,not million's ,and those hundred's of thousands are about the 30% youre speaking of.

Don’t even try it. I sad millions NOT Chechen was send to gulag for same crime. And only Chechen somehow deported.

Just think about that. You commit crime in New York, and they send you live in Texas instead of jail.  But your friend, send to jail fro 15 years for exactly the same crime.

And then after 10 years you return back to NY.  Sadly, your friend has 5 more years in jail.

Quote[/b] ]Even then ,the fact that so many nationality's collaberated with the German's in WW2 is easily explained by the oppresive regime imposed on country's

I didn’t know any other nation who collaborates with the Nazis on the level Chechens did. And still, Chechens have more “hero of Soviet Union†awards then many other nations in former USSR did.

Maybe you mean many peoples from France, Italy, Poland, (type any nations here) collaborate with the Nazis because “oppressive regime imposed on country's it simply annexed under the mum of "it all belongs to mother Russia†?

Quote[/b] ]Where are you from CrackerJack? Have you ever been in places what you're talking about?

He is albanian kid who live somewhere in north Europe. He was banned on this forum long time ago (if I remember correctly) after he celebrate 9/11 event, day after it happen.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]whose fault is it? after Russians were defeated they didn't do a squat.

Read Apollos post

you should too. Russia did NOTHING.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]the second war would not have happened if Chechens did not attack Moscow or Dagestan. after first war, Russian didn't want to do anything, until Dagestan and bombing followed.

let me ask you this question. Why do you not condemn Chechens for starting the cycle again?

As I recal the bombings in the moscow was pointed at the Chechens but not proven, lot of accidents happend when people try to make explosives at their home, happend in sweden too. Correct me if Im wrong, it´s been a while. Cycle never stoped.

making an explosive that can seriously damage an apartment complex is not something who lives in side of one does. Are you suggesting that the apartment blasts were caused by residents who wanted to make bombs that can kill themselves?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]It seems like to you Russian children are worth less than Chechen children cause you condone killing Russian children. I fail to see you condemn the perpetrators for Beslan incident.

´

Yeah I did, 5 times read my old posts. I dont worry about the 300, I worry about the  40.000 it´s a matter of quantity for me.

last time i heard that argument:

Hussein killed millions of his own people, while US occupation had far less casualty.

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]you should too. Russia did NOTHING.

Why did they (Basayev) invade Dagestan? I might be off a bit now, but could be that Dagestanies who fought with Chechens wanted the same for their country? Russia did nothing, besides leaving them in ruins.

Quote[/b] ]Orthodox Christianity is the majority religion of Russia. Once again ... oh forget it.

Yeye, I know it´s was something like that, Im a protestant and not so much of a religious man  

Quote[/b] ]He is albanian kid who live somewhere in north Europe. He was banned on this forum long time ago (if I remember correctly) after he celebrate 9/11 event, day after it happen.

You are wrong. I am a Swede who lives in Sweden, was never banned (wich you remember wrongly) I just stoped visiting forums before 9/11 because there was so much crap just like in this topic.

Quote[/b] ]last time i heard that argument:

Hussein killed millions of his own people, while US occupation had far less casualty.

Well I don´t like Hussein, never did.

You asked me if I condem the killing of the school children. What do you really think of Chechens and their relations to Russians?

Quote[/b] ]making an explosive that can seriously damage an apartment complex is not something who lives in side of one does. Are you suggesting that the apartment blasts were caused by residents who wanted to make bombs that can kill themselves?

I don´t know it and you dont know it, the only thing you do know is whom it was blaimed on.

[CrackerJack 0]

http://www.peaceinchechnya.org/background/bg_mythsfacts.pdf

Good reading

[Goodspeed 0]

You are wrong. I am a Swede who lives in Sweden, was never banned (wich you remember wrongly) I just stoped visiting forums before 9/11 because there was so much crap just like in this topic.

So, you're a Swede... Well... That's THE point of all those unavailing debates my dear Swedish friend. This is explain everything for me.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]you should too. Russia did NOTHING.

Why did they (Basayev) invade Dagestan? I might be off a bit now, but could be that Dagestanies who fought with Chechens wanted the same for their country? Russia did nothing, besides leaving them in ruins.

Since when did Chechens have word over DAGESTAN? Dagestan was their own place, and they did not have much to do with Chechen conflict. Some Dagestans could have went to Chechnya, but that doesn't establish a good reason why Chechens need to 'liberate' Dagestan. After all, failure of Chechens in Dagestan only reinforces argument that Chechens should have not invaded Dagestan.

Quote[/b] ]You are wrong. I am a Swede who lives in Sweden, was never banned (wich you remember wrongly) I just stoped visiting forums before 9/11 because there was so much crap just like in this topic.

this is not your mandatory service or anything like that. you may not participate should you wish to do so.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]last time i heard that argument:

Hussein killed millions of his own people, while US occupation had far less casualty.

Well I don´t like Hussein, never did.

You asked me if I condem the killing of the school children. What do you really think of Chechens and their relations to Russians?

You said that it's the quantity that matters. I showed you how absurd that argument is.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]making an explosive that can seriously damage an apartment complex is not something who lives in side of one does. Are you suggesting that the apartment blasts were caused by residents who wanted to make bombs that can kill themselves?

I don´t know it and you dont know it, the only thing you do know is whom it was blaimed on.

but it is highly probable that it was Chechens who did it. Your argument was that it could be an accident but such accidents don't occur so often. so someone is behind the blasts, and there were explosive residues found.

[GoOB 0]

You are wrong. I am a Swede who lives in Sweden, was never banned (wich you remember wrongly) I just stoped visiting forums before 9/11 because there was so much crap just like in this topic.

So, you're a Swede... Well... That's THE point of all those unavailing debates my dear Swedish friend. This is explain everything for me.

What would being a Swede have to do with his opinions?

[CrackerJack 0]

Damn I missred ur post, deleted the personal info for third time

Stupid comment that really is, how many in the Iraqi thread are from Iraq or in the vicinity? It doesn´t take a fool make his form his own opinion on a subject.

[Goodspeed 0]

CrackerJack, you're so much sure in your opinion, that it looks like you're from Chechnya. Or even was there... But, it turned out, that you're only a Swede. And I've just said that I understand now how much your words cost.

[CrackerJack 0]

Well my opinion on your opinion is worth nothing because your not from Sweden . LOL

[quicksand 0]

CrackerJack, you're so much sure in your opinion, that it looks like you're from Chechnya. Or even was there... But, it turned out, that you're only a Swede. And I've just said that I understand now how much your words cost.

You are right,it`s indeed hard to form an un-biased opinion about the real extent of the Chechen conflict if you haven`t been there.It certinly has to do with the fact that the russian government is streching all it`s powers to take down foreign journalists that are trying to cover the consequences of war from the chechen perspective,the tens of thousands of civillians that were killed during the second invasion;the village raids that leave hundreads gone not to be ever heard of again by arresting them confiscating all their material and afterwards expelling from the country.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]CrackerJack, you're so much sure in your opinion, that it looks like you're from Chechnya. Or even was there... But, it turned out, that you're only a Swede. And I've just said that I understand now how much your words cost.

That is rediculous Godspeed ,you can't value a person's oppinion on nationality ,an i find it a henious act of you that u use such method's to crackdown on a person's oppinion ,rather than to use viable counterarguments.Such behaviour is not constructive in a debate and doesn't show respect for an other persons oppinion.

Just an ex. ,we have had Serbian people on this forum to ,but most westeners disagreed on a number of arguments the Serbian people put forward regarding Serbia and it's wars.Their oppinion wasn't valued more just because they were indiginous to that country ,however most people still respected these Serbs and their arguments were countered with well constructed counter arguments ,in the end we all learnd a bit from eachother and that debate was constructive.

Quote[/b] ]last time i heard that argument:

Hussein killed millions of his own people, while US occupation had far less casualty.

Yes ralph ,but know that most people didn't oppose the US war on Iraq because on the grounds that Saddam had to leave rather how it was handled in regards to justification and aftermath.Nobody liked Saddam Hussain ,but if it was to many country's in Europe the war should have been justificated by the UN ,fought with a broader coalition s o that later it would have been occupied by peacekeepers of many nationality's and controlled by the international recognized body for such peacekeeping ,and most importantly the rebuilding of the country and the control of the oil fields shouldn't have gone integrally to the US like it has been now.

Given Bush his wish to go to war way before 9/11 ,a wish that was well known ,the comments made before the war that he wanted to go in unilateraly if needed ,the comments of "old Europe" and axis of the unwilling ,the ever changin justification he brough forward ranging from Saddam having links with Al-Quaida to weapons of mass destruction (all lies to) and most importantly the way he shared he afterwar contracts among his industrialist supporters made this war looks more as imperialistic oil grabbing than a human mission for the Iraqi's ,in addition millions of people die at the hands of tyrants every year and the US does nothing about that ,kinda sellective about wich people to liberate?

In any case that discussion belongs in an other thread and you shouldn't have brought such a thing up upon an argument that was quite viable.

[CrackerJack 0]

Goodspeed, I have been talking about the massaquers and human right violations in Chechnya, are you saying that Im lying about it? Please tell me on what point was I wrong, eccept on the one that I already have said that I was wrong.

[Goodspeed 0]

Some of you didn't understand me.

I've just asked "Where from he is?" in order to get how can he may speak about such a serious things with such a confidence... Did I say something about lie?

Nationality? Neither here not there. Please don't Apollo, I'm sure, you get what I meant.

Such behaviour is not constructive in a debate and doesn't show respect for an other persons oppinion.

I agree. Because I didn't try to show respect and I'm not going to open debates with you here.

I just think: how much basely it is to sit here with smart faces, speak about that terrible crime and with all this going on trying to protect and explain movement of babykillers.

Shame on you people.

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]Shame on you people.

Im sorry mommy  

Same thing as to say how can you protect the Russian baby killers. Im trying to show the other side of the conflict, why would someone do it, who had to do with this, was al-quida in it and etc. And I do know what Iam talking about, I wasn´t born in Sweden, not going to tell you exacly where from just because I dont have to prove my self nor this should be about me.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]last time i heard that argument:

Hussein killed millions of his own people, while US occupation had far less casualty.

Yes ralph ,but know that most people didn't oppose the US war on Iraq because on the grounds that Saddam had to leave rather how it was handled in regards to justification and aftermath.Nobody liked Saddam Hussain ,but if it was to many country's in Europe the war should have been justificated by the UN ,fought with a broader coalition s o that later it would have been occupied by peacekeepers of many nationality's and controlled by the international recognized body for such peacekeeping ,and most importantly the rebuilding of the country and the control of the oil fields shouldn't have gone integrally to the US like it has been now.

Given Bush his wish to go to war way before 9/11 ,a wish that was well known ,the comments made before the war that he wanted to go in unilateraly if needed ,the comments of "old Europe" and axis of the unwilling ,the ever changin justification he brough forward ranging from Saddam having links with Al-Quaida to weapons of mass destruction (all lies to) and most importantly the way he shared he afterwar contracts among his industrialist supporters made this war looks more as imperialistic oil grabbing than a human mission for the Iraqi's ,in addition millions of people die at the hands of tyrants every year and the US does nothing about that ,kinda sellective about wich people to liberate?

In any case that discussion belongs in an other thread and you shouldn't have brought such a thing up upon an argument that was quite viable.

i used the analogy to show that 'quantity is what I care about' argument is NOT a good argument.

[AKM74. 0]

Quote[/b] ]I wasn´t born in Sweden, not going to tell you exacly where from just because I dont have to prove my self nor this should be about me.

you don't have to, i'm already did...

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]you don't have to, i'm already did...

You said I was from Albania, wich Im not.

[AKM74. 0]

Quote[/b] ]You said I was from Albania, wich Im not.

You don’t get my point. You guys not really “chess playersâ€, you can’t think at least 2 move ahead.  I don’t really care you Albanian or Bosnian. Just don’t call yourself Swede anymore.

One more events like resent school killing and Putin (which many considered very soft even by Europeans standards) will be replaced by guy like Girinovski. And then, you will learn what real brutality look like.

The way you guys act, lead you nowhere.  Infact, you will get very opposite effects.

Soon there will be Lepen in France (with your help), then it will be “Lepen†in UK, then it will be their own Lepen in Germany, and so on.

And those guys will really give you all freedom to express your religion right. To make it even more comfortable for you, they will send you back home, to the “stone age†you come from.  To sad, 70% of Muslim population has nothing to do with this. It just happens then 30% screem much louder then the rest. And then, when you will stand in the middle of the desert, they will ask you “whyâ€.  I wonder, what you will answer then. If they will give you chance to reply, of course.

Watch “starship troopersâ€. You will have some ideah…

[Balschoiw 0]

I guess it´s time to leave alll that personal ranting aside. We can do better than that.

It doesn´t matter what the reasons for the conflict are. It does matter how to solve them.

Right now there should be real efforts to find a common line, an exit for both parties. The russians and the chechens. If there is no serious approach made the terror and military killing will go on.

So maybe a bit more future perspective should be on our mind and not the blaming contest.

The situation is bad, let´s talk about how it could be improved.

Quote[/b] ]Soon there will be Lepen in France (with your help), then it will be “Lepen†in UK, then it will be their own Lepen in Germany, and so on.

Bullshit.

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]You don’t get my point

Offcorse I don´t, It´s hard reading your english (even if mine is awful). Ive lived for over half of my life in Sweden, and I do call my self Swedish.

@ Balschoiw: I totally agree, therefor Im going to drop the repeating of my old comments to the same questions.

It´s a well known fact that Russians never tried to see a diplomatic ending to the the second war. Chechens have only one goal in this war and that is to liberate it´s country and drive out the Russian forces. Russians on the other hand have nothing to gain on continuing the war, maybe what´s left of the oil and other few local raw material. Winning the war will mostly be economicly bad, building up the war torn country will cost more then there is to gain. Am I wrong?