Gunmen take 200+ student hostages

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]Oh, so they go and kill a load of kids in a school? If I was a Chechnyan who had not much to live for, then I'd fight against the invasion force, the military, the same people who have invaded the country...not kidnap schoolkids.

Neither you nor I can tell why they did it. Their kidnapping had a poupuse and I don´t belive that they did it just because they like to kill kids.

Quote[/b] ]I wasn't blaming it on stupidity. The reason I was blaming the behavior of these supposed-muslims on brainwashing is because they HAVE been brainwashed by the same people who started wahabi islam. Their leaders spend all their money for campaigns and hire scholars to 'teach' the uneducated masses. What do you blame it on? Or do you not blame it on nothing...just 'not much to live for'.

I blaim it on the war, I blaim it on the russia who don´t want any diplomatic relations and I blaim them for invading chechnya for second time.

Quote[/b] ]I never said it did. I was referring the article posted by theavonlady

sorry my bad.

Quote[/b] ]well there maybe a tedious link seeing as 9 of the 20 odd terrorist's were of arab origin along with it being a known fact that alot of Al Q operatives train and fight in Chech.

Alot of forgein fighers are in Chechnya, that´s nothing new. Al Quida are operative from alot of countries but train in Chechnya... that might be one of lies that where made from Russian side, after 9/11 some of Chechen fighters where interviewed and said that they didn´t have any relations with Bin laden or anything with him. Some of the forgein fighters have seen him in afghanistan but had nothing to do with him.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]Neither you nor I can tell why they did it. Their kidnapping had a poupuse and I don´t belive that they did it just because they like to kill kids.

they deliberately chose to hold children hostage. no one in right mind would consider holding innocent children hostage.

Quote[/b] ]I blaim it on the war, I blaim it on the russia who don´t want any diplomatic relations and I blaim them for invading chechnya for second time.

if you haven't noticed, second time russians went is because chechens thought they could bomb Russian apartments and also move into neighboring Dagestan. in simpler words, Chechen went beyond their territory after earning world's sympathy, and thought they were the undisputable bad asses.

Quote[/b] ]Alot of forgein fighers are in Chechnya, that´s nothing new. Al Quida are operative from alot of countries but train in Chechnya... that might be one of lies that where made from Russian side, after 9/11 some of Chechen fighters where interviewed and said that they didn´t have any relations with Bin laden or anything with him. Some of the forgein fighters have seen him in afghanistan but had nothing to do with him.

so can you prove that it is a lie? how about after 911? can you prove that there is NO ties between AQ and Checheniand guerillas? 9(or 10) arabsout of 23 isn't negligable number. the cooperation between the splinter cells and AQ is very likely, as evidenced by unusually high number of Arab terrorists in this incident. I bet those Arabs were not there for a weekend holiday.

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]if you haven't noticed, second time russians went is because chechens thought they could bomb Russian apartments and also move into neighboring Dagestan. in simpler words, Chechen went beyond their territory after earning world's sympathy, and thought they were the undisputable bad asses.

I belive that has something to do with the election mixing by Jeltsin.. I can´t remember how it all went. Chechen never earned world´s sympathy because of the medias focus on Balkan wars, not untill now they don´t show it on the news how it is going, the only report on that war was this hostage taking.

Quote[/b] ]so can you prove that it is a lie? how about after 911? can you prove that there is NO ties between AQ and Checheniand guerillas? 9(or 10) arabsout of 23 isn't negligable number. the cooperation between the splinter cells and AQ is very likely, as evidenced by unusually high number of Arab terrorists in this incident. I bet those Arabs were not there for a weekend holiday.

Just because they are arabs doesn´t make them Al-Quida, I´ve read interviews by Chechen Saudi Arabs that didn´t say that they dont have anything to do with them and the only thing you got is that they are arabs... Please

[Scorpio 0]

Quote[/b] ]Neither you nor I can tell why they did it. Their kidnapping had a poupuse and I don´t belive that they did it just because they like to kill kids.

Maybe so, but as said before, any purpose or motive whatsoever does not justify even taking innocent children hostage, let alone killing them.

Quote[/b] ]I blaim it on the war, I blaim it on the russia who don´t want any diplomatic relations and I blaim them for invading chechnya for second time.

I didn't support the invasion(s) either. Not one bit. But this should be met with at peaceful negotiations or if not then at least fight the invasion force, not the civilians.

War is a horrible thing; innocents get caught up in it, but innocents should never get caught up in acts of terrorism.

[edit quote marks

[CrackerJack 0]

This is the difference between most of you and me. I don´t like the children being killed in that school, but I mostly think of the all the children that died by THOUSANDS in chechnya in the most groosome way, not by bullets but by granades and vacume bombs, artillery and knives.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]Chechen never earned world´s sympathy because of the medias focus on Balkan wars, not untill now they don´t show it on the news how it is going, the only report on that war was this hostage taking.

although Chechen conflict was not a headline in world news, it certainly had its share of voice on the news. In fact IIRC, Russia was so annoyed by the reports that their basic stance on the issue was 'it's internal matter, don't bother talking about it to us.'

Quote[/b] ]Just because they are arabs doesn´t make them Al-Quida, I´ve read interviews by Chechen Saudi Arabs that didn´t say that they dont have anything to do with them and the only thing you got is that they are arabs... Please

Saudis don't give much welcome to AQ either. they didn't bother negating them, but they also did not support them. there cannot be a smoke when there is no fire.

[ralphwiggum 6]

This is the difference between most of you and me. I don´t like the children being killed in that school, but I mostly think of the all the children that died by THOUSANDS in chechnya in the most groosome way, not by bullets but by granades and vacume bombs, artillery and knives.

yeah and it makes perfect sense to kill more children to avenge that, right?

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]although Chechen conflict was not a headline in world news, it certainly had its share of voice on the news. In fact IIRC, Russia was so annoyed by the reports that their basic stance on the issue was 'it's internal matter, don't bother talking about it to us.'

How often do you hear how many chechen civilians died?

Quote[/b] ]Saudis don't give much welcome to AQ either. they didn't bother negating them, but they also did not support them. there cannot be a smoke when there is no fire.

Not talking about Saudi forgein politics, talking about saudi fighters in Chechnya.

Quote[/b] ]yeah and it makes perfect sense to kill more children to avenge that, right?

I think I said my word about that 5 times on this thread.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]How often do you hear how many chechen civilians died?

quite often. when the Russian advances were made, the news were reporting it with a vigor, and did indicate a ballpark figure of 1000s. not daily basis as they have with US soldiers, but almost every 3 days or so.

Quote[/b] ]Not talking about Saudi forgein politics, talking about saudi fighters in Chechnya.

if it is revealed that AQ is indeed related to Chechen guerilla, then the immediate result would be world bearing down on them. what makes you think Chechens will come out and admit that?

Quote[/b] ]I think I said my word about that 5 times on this thread.

the right way to deal with the situation would be stop killing children and remembering the chechen conflict, not killing children and come up with excuse. now the parents of the small town really have a good reason to kill Chechens. I bet most of the children's parents were indifferent to the conflict until this incident.

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]quite often. when the Russian advances were made, the news were reporting it with a vigor, and did indicate a ballpark figure of 1000s. not daily basis as they have with US soldiers, but almost every 3 days or so.

Never heard in news how many civilians died, only how many russian or chechen terrorists died. Thats because Russians don´t let forgein media to film the real thruth behind the war.

Quote[/b] ]if it is revealed that AQ is indeed related to Chechen guerilla, then the immediate result would be world bearing down on them. what makes you think Chechens will come out and admit that?

Dont think they would, because it would be stupid, why bring more war and killing to a country who has been suffering for 10 years? That is just speculations.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]Never heard in news how many civilians died, only how many russian or chechen terrorists died. Thats because Russians don´t let forgein media to film the real thruth behind the war.

there are foreign journalists in Chechnya. from 1998,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/s/w_asia/65993.stm

and NGO workers kidnap in around same time

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/149917.stm

Not all bad news from that part of region

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/91450.stm

Quote[/b] ]Dont think they would, because it would be stupid, why bring more war and killing to a country who has been suffering for 10 years?

That is the EXACT REASON why i said they will deny having ties with AQ, which you think is true, not considering this point of 'bringing more war'

[philcommando 0]

Crackerjack and to the others who support your cause:-

1. I am not an apologist for Putin or a russian, but i am shocked by the horror that occured in Beslan to kids, whose innocent defenseless unconditional loving lives were tortured just before they were snuffed out by beasts no matter what country they hail from who believed they will get rewarded with 72virgins when they die.

2. I am equally saddened that u chosed to stab the russians on their day of national mourning when even the rest of the world set aside time to mourn for these poor children and innocent lives, for we too, are members of the same human race and have children and know what is peace and what is pain.

3. You and others who think like u squeal often about chechnya kids dying. First of all, did the leaders do anything to protect non-combatants? Secondly, did the russian military PURPOSELY target only non-combatants like the way the chechnyans or mad beasts did to Beslan?

4. I have no quarels with your right to seek determination thru the path of violence but Your defiance and callousness in explaining away the horror of those who died in Beslan leaves me speechless and horrified. The world prefers to deal with rational beings and its no wonder and no pity that even the russian government no longer wishes to deal in a gentlemanly diplomatic level with you and your kind for u have shown total and utter disregard and disrepect for lives of not only your kind but others as well.

5. I know i cant change your mind on how you think, but i beg you and others like you to reasses the calibre of your leaders and ask yourselves how many more dead then would make him happy. If he is a caring leader who cares for his people, he will have to stop the madness on the negotiating table now!!! Otherwise, it will be more deaths.

Ghandi, the most humane man of mankind once said an eye for eye leaves the whole world blind. Is this what your leader wants? Is this what your leader envisions as your freedom? Do you want your own kids who have a right to peace, to live and to make this world a better place to be dead or blind?

Please...do think over what i have said rationally before u wish to reply.

[Kuja- 0]

I don't understand why it was done in the first place.

Presumably they do not view or label themselves as terrorists. Freedom fighters, rebels, resistance perhaps, but not terrorists. However, to take hundreds of children hostage cannot be justified in any sense as an act of resistance: it cannot be construed as anything other than an act of terrorism. It did nothing to further their cause, did not promote the righteousness of the Chechen resistance and served only to turn the international community against them and reinforce notions of brutal, inhumane, muslim religiously-brainwashed terrorists.

So therefore, why would they do such a thing? Revenge, maybe?

It would still seem bizarre - they may be currently caught in a struggle against Russia, however at some point in the future they will be free or the conflict will have otherwise ended. In which case, one would expect they revert to ordinary, peacetime human beings. It strikes me that ordinary human beings, albeit ones engaged in fighting a guerilla war, do not purposefully kill children whether for ideology or revenge.

Inexplicable...

[Longinius 1]

They had issued a list of demands, classified as top secret by the Russian government according to media. So until that list, if it exists, goes public I doubt we will ever know exactly what they hoped to achieve.

Further more, according to terrorist(s) in custody, their leader had not informed them of the fact that they were going after kids. When one of them objected, he was shot. Now, if there is any truth to that is another matter. I am sure any surviving terrorists are pretty keen on saving their hide right about now.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]there are foreign journalists in Chechnya. from 1998,

The guy you quoted never said there aren`t any foreign journalists in Chechnya,he said they are forbidden to film the truth about the conflict which is completly true.Anyone who tries to investigate the widespread human rights abuses,the night village raids that leave hundreads of inhabatants gone without any explanations not to be seen ever again is arrested,gets his footage confiscated and booted out of the country.

Kremlin is also touchy about reporting casualties.When the siege of Grozny was full fledged back in 1999 it took a hell of alot time for the government to admit on their side the thousands of deaths..

BBC:Chechnya media

Quote[/b] ]Chechnya presents a formidable challenge to the media outlets operating there and journalists attempting to cover events on the ground.

Media freedom groups have accused Moscow of trying to muzzle independent coverage of the Chechen conflict. They say journalists who investigate alleged abuses by federal forces in Chechnya are persecuted.

One highly-publicised case was that of Andrei Babitsky, a reporter working for the US-backed Radio Free Europe, whose reporting of the Chechen war was said to have angered the Kremlin. Mr Babitsky was arrested in Grozny and held for 10 months in 2000.

Russian TV and radio stations are said to be available across much of the republic. Chechnya's own state-run radio service resumed broadcasts in November 2001.

Several pro-rebel websites spread a different view of events in the republic to the world. They include the Kavkaz Tsentr site, which in November 2002 complained that its internet domain had been "blocked" following pressure from Moscow. In April 2003 the site closed; it had been hosted on an Estonian server.

Reports on the extent and influence of rebel-run media vary. In late 2002 Kavkaz Tsentr noted that several newspapers and magazines were being published and that a radio station was on the air with daily broadcasts. Russian forces say they have closed hundreds of "underground" printing houses in the republic and destroyed "militant" broadcasting facilities.

Foreign broadcasters also target Chechnya. The US government-funded station Radio Liberty beams programmes in the Chechen and Russian languages into the republic. Moscow has expressed concerns about the broadcasts and has accused Radio Liberty of editorial "one-sidedness".

Russian TV reported in 2003 that Chechnya had eight official newspapers, three of them with republic-wide circulation.

[philcommando 0]

Journalists are no angels, for they are only emotional beings just like you and me, with the inherent flaws of being human. The qualifications to make them a journalist does not make them anymore angellic, for we only need to look at Enron's executive, products of Harvard and Princeton, to know that paper qualifications an angel does not one makes.

A single journalist welds great power for in his pen lies the power to move millions of readers by his strokes. And often we have seen thru out history how the media can be a tool of corporations,governments and attention seekers. In the hands of a master manipulator, the journalist's pen strokes writes only what the master wants and what the master wants him to see. What are then we to believe?

The facts remains:-

------------------------

1. 300+ children and innocent pple were tortured and murdered.

2. They died hearing the words allah akbar from the lips of beasts.

3. They were non-combatants in a non-combat zone.

Are we to condone revenge killings? If so, be prepared to fight for 7 X 7 generations to come then, for vengence will never end till only the last man is left alive on earth.

Thats why we have rule of law, secular laws, not perfect, but at least we can live in peace with each other. Anyone who flouts such laws will be dealt with, for no one is above the law in secular societies. At least, with all its flaws, russia still has elections. If that leader or his men is bad or corrupt, anyone or a group of anyones can give him the boot in a couple of years thru the votes, unlike other forms of government whereby the senile godlike status old men dies in office.

I will not comment on the path of violence that some seek to redress justice, perhaps its already too late to say anything for blood on both sides have been split. However its still not too late to stop further bloodshed. Surrender up those who have no respect for humanity and innocent lives. Lay down your guns and seek for self determination thru the proper way-seek a proper mandate from your own people and see how many truly wants what u want. Enough innocent people have died, let them have final peace in knowing that their death may not have been in vain ....they died so that others may live..

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]5. I know i cant change your mind on how you think, but i beg you and others like you to reasses the calibre of your leaders and ask yourselves how many more dead then would make him happy. If he is a caring leader who cares for his people, he will have to stop the madness on the negotiating table now!!! Otherwise, it will be more deaths.

whatta hell are you talking about? People like me? Do you even know who and what I am? Do you even know anything about diplomatic relations between Chechnya and Russia, read first then post this.

Quote[/b] ]4. I have no quarels with your right to seek determination thru the path of violence but Your defiance and callousness in explaining away the horror of those who died in Beslan leaves me speechless and horrified. The world prefers to deal with rational beings and its no wonder and no pity that even the russian government no longer wishes to deal in a gentlemanly diplomatic level with you and your kind for u have shown total and utter disregard and disrepect for lives of not only your kind but others as well.

Well gee, let´s take a look who invaded whom with force.

Quote[/b] ]3. You and others who think like u squeal often about chechnya kids dying. First of all, did the leaders do anything to protect non-combatants? Secondly, did the russian military PURPOSELY target only non-combatants like the way the chechnyans or mad beasts did to Beslan?

I feel like you are always talking about something else, if I can figure that out I´ll come back to your post. Offcorse they did purposley attack, they are not americans you know, you really think they got smart weapons that only get´s used to target military objects. Have you ever heard of Russian cleaning? Young men and women get taken from their families and they never come back.

[Sgt. Stryker 0]

This act disgust me even more than the 9/11 massacre, it makes no sense, children for christ's sake. I wish these dumb ass mother fuckin middleaster allah loving sonabitch fuckin 72 virgin wanabee dicksuckin maytars would just do the world a favor and fuckin kill them selves, whipe thier evil disgusting existence of the face of the earth. This is the worst possible thing I coulda heard after getting slammed by 2 hurricanes, first fuckin thing. Fuckin dirty animals are all they are I swear to god if i was George Wubba I'd fuckin nuke the whole god damn middle east then, let them have thier maytars, let them see what they get they will fucking pay they will and yes everyman on this earth will die if it comes to that, its the end of the world when children die in thier schools, INFANTS!!!!!!!!! WTF no brain no heart just bullshit runnign through thier empty heads, those infants they killed had more thought, emotions, and sensiblilty than those fools. God damn religion and god damn anyone that supports those fuckers. They wont get 72 virgins they will get 72 black men with huge dicks and hungry from some allah preaching ass.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I wish these dumb ass mother fuckin middleaster allah loving sonabitch fuckin 72 virgin wanabee dicksuckin maytars would just do the world a favor and fuckin kill them selves, whipe thier evil disgusting existence of the face of the earth.

I know it´s a touchy issue we´re talking about here but there is no reason to go to that level of rude and displaced language. Scream it out at home. But try to find a more moderate tone here. This is a public forum that represents the active OFP community and I don´t think it´s right to use such foul language.

[Madus_Maximus 0]

Someone said the world prefers to deal with rational beings... no shit! Just you get some nut jobs who take children hostage and then kill them! These are not those kind of people, the only thing they understand is violence, and the only thing they deserve is death. My view, you don't like it I have others.

[ralphwiggum 6]

This act disgust me even more than the 9/11 massacre, it makes no sense, children for christ's sake. I wish these dumb ass mother fuckin middleaster allah loving sonabitch fuckin 72 virgin wanabee dicksuckin maytars would just do the world a favor and fuckin kill them selves, whipe thier evil disgusting existence of the face of the earth. This is the worst possible thing I coulda heard after getting slammed by 2 hurricanes, first fuckin thing. Fuckin dirty animals are all they are I swear to god if i was George Wubba I'd fuckin nuke the whole god damn middle east then, let them have thier maytars, let them see what they get they will fucking pay they will and yes everyman on this earth will die if it comes to that, its the end of the world when children die in thier schools, INFANTS!!!!!!!!! WTF no brain no heart just bullshit runnign through thier empty heads, those infants they killed had more thought, emotions, and sensiblilty than those fools. God damn religion and god damn anyone that supports those fuckers. They wont get 72 virgins they will get 72 black men with huge dicks and hungry from some allah preaching ass.

watch your language.

perhaps you could use some time off from the forum.

[Scorpio 0]

This act disgust me even more than the 9/11 massacre, it makes no sense, children for christ's sake. I wish these dumb ass mother fuckin middleaster allah loving sonabitch fuckin 72 virgin wanabee dicksuckin maytars would just do the world a favor and fuckin kill them selves, whipe thier evil disgusting existence of the face of the earth. This is the worst possible thing I coulda heard after getting slammed by 2 hurricanes, first fuckin thing. Fuckin dirty animals are all they are I swear to god if i was George Wubba I'd fuckin nuke the whole god damn middle east then, let them have thier maytars, let them see what they get they will fucking pay they will and yes everyman on this earth will die if it comes to that, its the end of the world when children die in thier schools, INFANTS!!!!!!!!! WTF no brain no heart just bullshit runnign through thier empty heads, those infants they killed had more thought, emotions, and sensiblilty than those fools. God damn religion and god damn anyone that supports those fuckers. They wont get 72 virgins they will get 72 black men with huge dicks and hungry from some allah preaching ass.

I appreciate your anger at these terrorists, but not everyone who is 'allah loving' are terrorists. On the contrary, quite the opposite.

[edit] Heh...goddamn religion? It's just like saying "God bless atheism".

[CrackerJack 0]

Quote[/b] ]Someone said the world prefers to deal with rational beings... no shit! Just you get some nut jobs who take children hostage and then kill them! These are not those kind of people, the only thing they understand is violence, and the only thing they deserve is death. My view, you don't like it I have others.

Who are those people you are talking about? Hostage takers? Chechens or all around muslims?

[Madus_Maximus 0]

The hostage takers.

[Apollo 0]

In any case ,the Chechen leadership under Aslan Maskhadov have denounced the attack saying that they are not a part in actions targetting innocent civilians.