US troop removal

[kerosene 0]

I'm sure if someone tried to take over western europe the U.S would put troops back quick enough, this dosent make any real difference to europes security, besides they want smaller bases in countries further east, those countries also tend to agree with U.S foreign policy a lot more than germany at the moment.

[Bordoy 0]

"Now" does not mean "never". U do not know what can happen even next week...

Yeah, lets spend billions every year because of the bogeyman who may never come. That makes sense.

The only way to stop war is to be ready for war

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]21% of the cost surely amounts to much more than $150 million per year. So it seems that it's good business for Germany as a whole that the US bases are shut down.

As a whole, probably, but not the communities where the base closings are going to happen.

[Bordoy 0]

How do u think, will this affect military spendings of european countries?

I don't think germany will spend more money on its Military when the US leave. We simply don't have any money to spend!

problems with the euro or goverment?

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]21% of the cost surely amounts to much more than $150 million per year. So it seems that it's good business for Germany as a whole that the US bases are shut down.

As a whole, probably, but not the communities where the base closings are going to happen.

Yepp, the locals probably won't be too happy about it. But that's life.

[turms 0]

A unified european army will actually come cheaper in long term. Europe could concentrate her weapon aqusitions, systems and stuff...

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

How do u think, will this affect military spendings of european countries?

I don't think germany will spend more money on its Military when the US leave. We simply don't have any money to spend!

problems with the euro or goverment?

Its the people, who want more money for less work, the people that think getting enough money to live very comfy without a job can work.

Basically, the Germans are once again not flexible enough to realise that the fat cat times are over.

All those people complaining about Hartz IV will ruin the country badly, if they do get their way.

[-33ker 0]

How do u think, will this affect military spendings of european countries?

I don't think germany will spend more money on its Military when the US leave. We simply don't have any money to spend!

problems with the euro or goverment?

Its the people, who want more money for less work, the people that think getting enough money to live very comfy without a job can work.

Basically, the Germans are once again not flexible enough to realise that the fat cat times are over.

All those people complaining about Hartz IV will ruin the country badly, if they do get their way.

If they can get a job at all!

[Bordoy 0]

A unified european army will actually come cheaper in long term. Europe could concentrate her weapon aqusitions, systems and stuff...

her?? more like it

[Bordoy 0]

How do u think, will this affect military spendings of european countries?

I don't think germany will spend more money on its Military when the US leave. We simply don't have any money to spend!

problems with the euro or goverment?

Its the people, who want more money for less work, the people that think getting enough money to live very comfy without a job can work.

Basically, the Germans are once again not flexible enough to realise that the fat cat times are over.

All those people complaining about Hartz IV will ruin the country badly, if they do get their way.

If they can get a job at all!

i hope they sort there problems out somehow and i hope your ok mate?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

How do u think, will this affect military spendings of european countries?

I don't think germany will spend more money on its Military when the US leave. We simply don't have any money to spend!

problems with the euro or goverment?

Its the people, who want more money for less work, the people that think getting enough money to live very comfy without a job can work.

Basically, the Germans are once again not flexible enough to realise that the fat cat times are over.

All those people complaining about Hartz IV will ruin the country badly, if they do get their way.

If they can get a job at all!

Hartz IV is a direct result of the jobless situation in Germany. If only half the people were unemployed, there would be no need for Hartz IV.

Which brings us to another problem of Germany's - the most antiquated and inflexible labour market in the whole of central Europe.

[denoir 0]

How do u think, will this affect military spendings of european countries?

I don't think germany will spend more money on its Military when the US leave. We simply don't have any money to spend!

problems with the euro or goverment?

Government.. the complete system. Industry is very automated, the consumer market saturated combined with a very expensive social security model. The whole of Europe is going that way. Production jobs are becoming unnecessary while no real substitute has been found while a very solid and expensive social security protection is in place.

France is heading that way too. Britain has still some time left, but will also be there in 10-20 years.

Various reforms are being made, but they are all short term. The long term question remains of what people will work with if there are no production jobs at all. The information and service sectors can only take you so far.

It's actually a general western problem, it's just that Germany and France reached it first. The industrial production is automated or outsourced to third-world countries. People have more money than stuff they want to buy (within reason). America is still on dry land thanks to the excessive consumer culture (if you can afford 20 cars, then you buy 20 cars) while Europe is pretty much in dire straits on that front (even if you can afford 20 cars, you buy one). Add to that our social protection and aging population.. not very good outlooks.

..but these things have a way of sorting themselves out. 200 years ago 90% of the population worked in agriculture. Now it's like 5%. There was a nasty transitional period, but it all worked out. The same thing now - we're moving from industrial production into something else..

[-33ker 0]

Personally, I believe that reforms like Hartz IV are necessary. But on the other side they come too late! In one year I'll have to get a job because I'm outta school. But I'm afraid that, no matter how hard I learn, I won't be abled to pick up the profession I like. Not that there's already too much unemployment, but there also is a lack of companies that are willing to train young people!

Maybe Hartz IV won't work out for me, but at least for the next generations.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Personally, I believe that reforms like Hartz IV are necessary. But on the other side they come too late! In one year I'll have to get a job because I'm outta school. But I'm afraid that, no matter how hard I learn, I won't be abled to pick up the profession I like. Not that there's already too much unemployment, but there also is a lack of companies that are willing to train young people!

Maybe Hartz IV won't work out for me, but at least for the next generations.

If it doesn't work out, there's always Tesco's or Sainsbury's They seem to be sucking up people like vacuum cleaners

[PitViper 0]

The U.S probably doesn't want too many troops around Germany when the German economy collapses in 10 years.  

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The removal of the US troops from bases in Germany will only affact the local business around the bases. I don't think the US troops are a major economical factor for the whole country.

Large regional impact. A population of 75.000 soldiers is indeed the cornerstone of income for the surrounding villages. Not only the army requires goods to uphold the infrastructure but also the soldiers themselves spend money on tourist trips through germany. But most important,  the majority of the soldiers came to europe bringing their families along. Also, the bases themselves are often lodging many additional US bureaucrats. So please take into consideration that 75.000 soldiers actually count up to at least 200.000 consumers. Loosing this amount of salary to spend plus the big investor "US-ARMY" will affect unemployment rates. Be not mistaken about it.

No, Germany is NOT paying for the US bases. Or at least not that I know of about. The media only refer to the point I made above.

INSTEAD, the US is intending to build bases in poland and Bulgaria to reward the us-loyalty that those countries showed in the war against Saddam.

[denoir 0]

No, Germany is NOT paying for the US bases. Or at least not that I know of about. The media only refer to the point I made above.

As was posted before: Germany pays 21% of the total costs for the bases.

Quote[/b] ]So please take into consideration that 75.000 soldiers actually count up to at least 200.000 consumers. Loosing this amount of salary to spend plus the big investor "US-ARMY" will affect unemployment rates. Be not mistaken about it.

Bah, rubbish. 200,000 in a population of 82,000,000 = 0.2 %. It will affect the local economy near the bases, but that's a drop in the sea.

[Ares1978 0]

A unified european army will actually come cheaper in long term. Europe could concentrate her weapon aqusitions, systems and stuff...

Hope you don't mean standardized equipment as well

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yepp, the locals probably won't be too happy about it. But that's life.

In fact locals knew about the situation for some years already and made preparations for the day US troops leave germany. There is a lot of money to be made with the installations and ground the bases are on. In some towns these are high priced areas and they are eager to make big money of thoses areas. They probably will make big money. Have seen some interviews yesterday. They are happy about the upcoming opportunities. They are prepared.

Quote[/b] ]The U.S probably doesn't want too many troops around Germany when the German economy collapses in 10 years.

Hmm, unlikely to happen as we are still export champions of the world and the indexes are indicating a positive growth. Once the change in social system is done people will be spending more money within germany. Right now they are sitting on their money because they are confused. That will change. I´m very sure about this.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

21%? First time I hear this But still this is cheaper for us than keeping german troops. Now I germany has to rethink plans to close own military bases. 21% to 100% costs, that realy does hurt.

Denoir as little as those 200.000 might appear. Germany is the military command center of the US for entire europe right now. Dont you believe that the biggest military hospital outside the US, the largest military airport outside US, the largest training ground outside the US as well as the base of the (USAREUR) are not an important source of income for germany. Our own military even profits from this infrastructure so I believe this 21% is actually simillar to paying for an outsourced service that the Bundeswehr couldnt afford itself.

But it is nothing new. Bush already said it a few years ago: If Schroeder wins the election in Germany then the US is gonna withdraw its troops.

US Army in Germany (german source)

[Balschoiw 0]

Albert , it´s not like all bases will be shut down. Right now there are only details about 3 bases being shut. That does not mean that the bases will be totally shut, it only means that heavy units are relocated elsewhere. There are rumours that certain bases will be uses for RRF forces.

[denoir 0]

I must say that I'm a bit surprised over the reaction in Germany. Had it been Sweden, I'd be dancing naked in the streets. No matter how friendly relations you have, it's still a foreign force on your soil. And given the current US-German relations, it's even more difficult to understand. Of the countries that host US bases, Germany is the only one that was positive over them. If you even take a look at South Korea where the US troops serve a real defence role, you'll see that they are highly unpopular.

And mind you, in Germany those forces were not just intended for the protection of Europe against hte Soviets - they are a WW2 relic intended for the protection of Europe against Germany. So as far as I can see they are a direct insult to today's Germans.

[Balschoiw 0]

It´s not the general reaction denoir. As I already said, people are looking forward to it, but we also had good relationships with the US troops in our country. They were part of our community for a long time and influenced certain regions a lot. So it´s both I guess, a laughing and a whining eye  

Edit: Another thing: The whole story could be very different when president change in US takes place. We´ll see...

[Grizzlie 0]

As far as i know, there will be no US bases in Poland, maybe one airbase prepared to handle more planes.

And here was told alot about united european forces. One question is "when"?. I can see alot of problems with it.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I must say that I'm a bit surprised over the reaction in Germany. Had it been Sweden, I'd be dancing naked in the streets. No matter how friendly relations you have, it's still a foreign force on your soil. And given the current US-German relations, it's even more difficult to understand. Of the countries that host US bases, Germany is the only one that was positive over them. If you even take a look at South Korea where the US troops serve a real defence role, you'll see that they are highly unpopular.

And mind you, in Germany those forces were not just intended for the protection of Europe against hte Soviets - they are a WW2 relic intended for the protection of Europe against Germany. So as far as I can see they are a direct insult to today's Germans.  

Nah, In the region and the one of my boarding school there were lots of US military infrastructures around (Bonn) / (Aachen). Those were generally very nice and decent people. And finally they were ordinary tourists too. They often brought along friends and you still see lots of them touring Berlin.  

In the end those were the ones keeping the good relationship between the US and Germany. That is crucial considering the extreme amount of hardcore republicans in the army. The further every soldier moves away from Germany the more they will believe the republican bullshit about our country and our perceptions.

Just read the nonesense on military.com forum and you know what I am talking about.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course 75.000 soldiers does not mean closing all bases, but it means primary withdrawal of airforce troops and consequently the area requiring most military infrastructure.