US troop removal

[JAP 2]

Take into account that alot of other countries also pulled back forces from Germany in the last 10 years.

I did my military time also in Soest ( Tank battalion ) in '89, shortly after they pulled back around 4-5 bases in Germany ( Belgian Army ), i know there were UK and French ( i think ) soldiers too, maybe they pulled out of Germany too by now.

So over the last 10 years now i think the figure of loss of income will be somewhat bigger then posted here. If you see the general economy in Europe has taken 3 years + now to recuperate ( not fully yet, but its starting .. ) from the combo 9/11 & Euro introduction seeing it over 10 years in Germany aint that long at all.

east germany joins west + allied forces pulling out of germany in the early 90's + 9/11 + Euro + US forces pulling out .... not a nice route for the last 10 - 15 years.

We have a house in Spain, and almost all Germans are pulling out of the region and are leaving for Hungary, Croatia, etc .. where homes are cheaper and there is still a bank secret, this week alone 5 of the 40 houses in the housingcomplex here have been put up for sale ... all of them owned by Germans.

Almost all of these houses are being bought buy either Spanish, Swedish or Norwegian ppl.

Things are not going good in Germany ... hope they improve soon !

I heard something about if unemployed and your kid has over a certain amount of money in it s savingsaccount you re forced to use that instead of receiving social security ... is that true ?  I mean that's    taking your kid's future savings to start their own life ...

Cheers

[PitViper 0]

Albert,

 It's not a complete withdrawal.  There will be a small amount of U.S military remaining in country (<10,000 I think).  I'm pretty sure they will not be shutting down the Landstuhl hospital.

Frankly, I don't understand the angst.  This is the completely logical next step.  I'm surprised it took over a decade for this to come about. Think of all the free housing the German government will be acquiring.

[hellfish6 7]

Yeah, if it's anything like what happens in America when base closes, you'll be getting brand new condos, shopping centers and gated communities.

I heard somewhere today that they were going to replace the 1st Infantry Division and the 1st Armored Division with a Stryker brigade. I haven't yet heard which bases will close, but I imagine that Grafenwhoer (I never could spell that right) will close as it was a pretty big installation that won't be needed much. I hope Hohelfels and the Combat Maneuver Training Center will remain open, if only cos that's where I used to be based.

[raedor 8]

I must say that I'm a bit surprised over the reaction in Germany. Had it been Sweden, I'd be dancing naked in the streets. No matter how friendly relations you have, it's still a foreign force on your soil. And given the current US-German relations, it's even more difficult to understand. Of the countries that host US bases, Germany is the only one that was positive over them. If you even take a look at South Korea where the US troops serve a real defence role, you'll see that they are highly unpopular.

And mind you, in Germany those forces were not just intended for the protection of Europe against hte Soviets - they are a WW2 relic intended for the protection of Europe against Germany. So as far as I can see they are a direct insult to today's Germans.

that's what i'm doing. okay, i do not dance naked on the streets, but i'm very happy about it. 70.000 US soldiers in germany. but are we really in the danger of a war the last 10 years?! for me it is just wasting money.

don't only jugde us by a conservative albert but in this case albert says what most of our tv channels (and thus most of the germans) say: it's a loss for us.

it does not insult me

but to be honest: i don't believe that really. bush (or members of his administration, i.e. donald) "threatened" us in the time before the war on iraq many times saying "we will move our troops from germany to eastern europe when you won't support us"... we did not support the war but the troops are still here.

[ozanzac 0]

Quote[/b] ]Force Realignment Plans Not Seen as Dramatic for Asian Allies

By Patrick Goodenough

CNSNews.com Pacific Rim Bureau Chief

August 17, 2004

Pacific Rim Bureau (CNSNews.com) - U.S. military global realignment plans announced Monday by President Bush are not expected to include any dramatic or unexpected reductions in troop levels in Asia.

Of greater importance in Asia will be redeployments and base restructuring and consolidation within the regions, where the presence of U.S. military bases has prompted frequent protests over the years.

Already, infantry units in Korea are being pulled back from their bases near the Demilitarized Zone to "hubs" south of Seoul, and the two governments have been negotiating the move of U.S. Forces in Korea headquarters from central Seoul to a location further south as well.

Recently, 3,600 infantry troops left South Korea for a one-year stint in Iraq. U.S. officials said they were would likely eventually form part of the 12,500 to be withdrawn from Korea altogether.

In Japan, meanwhile, there have been reports that some of the 17,000 Marines stationed on the southern island of Okinawa - where their presence is often politically sensitive - may be relocated to other parts of Japan.

U.S. military officials have repeatedly stated that any changes in South Korea and Japan would be made in a way that does not compromise the defense and security of the two countries.

Also, additional assets will deploy on the peninsula on a temporary basis. U.S. F-117A Stealth fighters have been training in South Korea, and the air force said this week a squadron of Alaska-based F-15E attack aircraft will head for the country next month, for up to three months of training.

Seoul on Tuesday played down the restructuring plan, which Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon said South Korea had been notified about beforehand - a reference to the announcement last June of the 12,500 pullback.

"I don't think there will be big changes for us," he said.

Another round of high-level U.S.-Korea military talks are due later this week, when Korean officials are expected to ask the U.S. to delay implementation of the withdrawal until 2006.

Japan's foreign ministry on Tuesday welcomed Bush's announcement, saying the new framework "will better suit the global security environment and further contribute to peace and stability."

Plans outlined for Asia

In a fact sheet, the White House said the focus of changes in northeast Asia would be to restructure command structures and presence in the allied nations, while improving capabilities in the region.

"Advanced strike assets will be stationed in the Western Pacific," it said.

There was no elaboration, but Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has said Guam was at the center of new plans for the major realignment of U.S. forces in the Asia-Pacific.

According to other officials, those plans include stationing additional air force and naval assets -- possibly including an aircraft carrier -- on the island.

Guam lies some 3,800 miles closer to the potential hotspots of North Korea and the Taiwan Strait than the next nearest U.S. soil with a major military presence, Hawaii.

Last month the U.S. and Australian governments signed an agreement to set up combined training facilities in northern and north-eastern Australia.

Australian Defense Minister Robert Hill Tuesday welcomed Bush's announcement, calling it "a significant global security development."

Hill said the changes would improve the U.S. capability to contribute to international efforts to defeat threats such as terrorism and weapons of mass destruction proliferation.

"While the redeployments do not directly affect Australia, our two countries continue to work closely to enhance security cooperation in the region," he said, citing the joint training plans and Australian participation in the U.S. ballistic missile defense program.

U.S. forces also train regularly with other countries in south-east Asia, including Singapore and the Philippines, while in Central Asia, the military has developed strong ties with countries like Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan since the Sept. 2001 terror attacks.

"The world has entered a new era, and it is well past time for U.S. global force structure to reflect this reality," he said.

From CNS News

In Korea's case, I'd much prefer a smaller foreign contingent comprising of a few extra squadrons of aircraft and required crews and maintenance people to replace the fully blown army bases the US has got over there.

In Australia’s case, Perth already acts as a crew changeover point for the US Navy. I vividly remember a story on Today Tonight a few years ago about how one of Perth's brothels had to shut down for a day to allow the 'employees' to recover from the sudden influx of US personnel from a visiting aircraft carrier. Furthermore, a recent local news story about a US serviceman being put on trial for raping a young local woman puts more bad blood on the matter of establishing a joint military base on our shores.

Almost sends shivers up my spine that the government wants more US troops on our soil. Sure, the proposed joint nationality base might bring about a boost in regard to national security and our economy... But what good is that if our local security gets compromised? How have US or international servicemen in general behaved whilst on deployment at other overseas bases? Have they earned any reputations?

Personally, I'm not too fussed over it seeing as there'll be over a thousand Km’s between me and the proposed base. But if I were a Northern Territorian, I’d be a tad suspicious.

[Balschoiw 0]

I only can speak for the US soldiers I have met in germany. I only made good experiences. If you talk to them solo they are nice guys, most of them, like in any other army.

If you meat them on training grounds they are a bit too confident of their technology and drill.

It´s always been a pleasure for me to widen their horizon of urban combat in Hammelburg where I´m regularely part of the opfor team in the city . But they are eager to learn and not so snobbish as the Brits      *no insult*

And if they move out at night in groups and there is a little problem (alcohol->hormones->women) it´s always been a pleasure for me to see them beeing "sorted" by military police.

[hellfish6 7]

Marines in particular have a very bad reputation in Okinawa.

[raedor 8]

I only can speak for the US soldiers I have met in germany. I only made good experiences. If you talk to them solo they are nice guys, most of them, like in any other army.

If you meat them on training grounds they are a bit too confident of their technology and drill.

It´s always been a pleasure for me to widen their horizon of urban combat in Hammelburg where I´m regularely part of the opfor team in the city . But they are eager to learn and not so snobbish as the Brits *no insult*

And if they move out at night in groups and there is a little problem (alcohol->hormones->women) it´s always been a pleasure for me to see them beeing "sorted" by military police.

what i heard from stories (region of hannover) the brits were the "bad guys" and the us soldiers the "good ones" (no insult here. it's only what i heard from a good friend.)

i did not meet many us soldiers here around, the ones i met where very friendly. so that's not the problem for me but i would like it more to see them only as tourists, not as soldiers

[PitViper 0]

hmm... I never found any German to be particularly "courteous" but I believe it just a cultural difference. For example, walking down a street in Germany and giving a innocent friendly greeting in German to a stranger seemed to evoke more suspicious stares than anything else.

[ralphwiggum 6]

hmm... I never found any German to be particularly "courteous" but I believe it just a cultural difference.  For example,  walking down a street in Germany and giving a innocent friendly greeting in German to a stranger seemed to evoke more suspicious stares than anything else.  

maybe you said 'Gut and tag' instead of 'gutten tag'?

[PitViper 0]

heh.. my German was correct. I checked that out.

[denoir 0]

hmm... I never found any German to be particularly "courteous" but I believe it just a cultural difference.  For example,  walking down a street in Germany and giving a innocent friendly greeting in German to a stranger seemed to evoke more suspicious stares than anything else.  

Probably cultural difference. Not necessarily a US/German one though. Try saying "hello" to a stranger on the streets of New York..

At least in Europe it is not so common that you greet complete strangers..

[Grizzlie 0]

I was visiting my cousin in little town in Germany nereby Czech border, and i have been told, and than practised it, that "Gruss got" is beeing tell even to completely strangers there.

[raedor 8]

I was visiting my cousin in little town in Germany nereby Czech border, and i have been told, and than practised it, that "Gruss got" is beeing tell even to completely strangers there.

if you say "gruss gott" to anyone else than a bavarian you show that you really are a strange stranger.

in northern germany people could have problems trying not to laugh at you... sounds weird, but it's that way.

[Supah 0]

I read this on a aircraft modeling site and thought of this thread. Often americans wonder what use it is to keep their troops abroad. Well maybe this story offers an explanation

Quote[/b] ]The C-54 was a military development of the DC-4 four-engine airliner, an aircraft designed for long range flights both within the US and overseas. These were to take the place of the flying boat. With the start of WWII, those DC-4s on the production line were converted to cargo/transport aircraft and given the military designation of C-54. They flew countless missions delivering high priority cargo and thanks to their carrying capability and long range were perfect for the Pacific Theater, where most of them were used.

Hundreds were on hand at the end of the war and so were on hand when the Russians closed all ground access to Berlin and so they were the major aircraft used during the Berlin Airlift of 1948. The most memorable use of the C-54 was as a 'Candy Bomber' and allow me to quote from the instruction sheet for the rest of this.

"1st Lt Gail Haverson was a USAF pilot flying C-54s into Berlin. He had seen a crowd of children along the end of the flying field in Berlin, watching the planes. He told the children to watch for his plane the next day, he would wiggle his wings and drop them a surprise.

The next day, as Haverson flew over the kids at the end of the runway, he wiggled his wings then, using the flare chute, dropped small parachutes made from handkerchiefs, each with a chocolate candy bar attached. Soon, more children began to appear, waiting expectantly for the candy.

By the time the military command heard about the 'candy bomber', it was so successful and popular with the air crews, that despite their official displeasure, they recognized the morale value of it and Operation Little Vittles was officially formed.

Parachutes were made by the crews and their families, handkerchiefs were donated and even made from actual parachutes. Candy manufacturers donated chocolates and 23 tons of candy was collected by school children in Massachusettes. These were flown to Westover AFB and then to Rhein-Main in Germany. Naturally, the military made regulations for the parachutes. They were to be 15 inches square and attached to each candy bar by four pieces of string, each 16 inches long. Each parachute had a note requesting its return to an MP for reuse.

While there was no one aircraft designated as 'candy bomber', but C-54 serial 45-6548 was one of the aircraft flown by Lt Halvorsen during the candy drops

What started out as an act of kindness by a single US airman turned into a official policy that probably did allot of good for goodwill towards americans. The individuals reached by this seemingly unimportant drop of candy had their image of americans influenced in a positive way far beyond childhood. Guess it goes to show that a little kindness goes a long way.

[baff 0]

The removal of the US troops from bases in Germany will only affact the local business around the bases. I don't think the US troops are a major economical factor for the whole country.

i've noticed the areas surrounding my local bases are all pretty grim.

around the closed bases, they have started to seriously prosper. relying on american crumbs for you major source of income, isn't going to advance you any.

goodbye. good riddance. they've been holding us all back for too long. now we shall have to take responsabilities for our own economies and defence. nothing wrong with americans, i used to rent one of my houses to the aircrews.

but dependance breeds weakness.

[turms 0]

Loosely related to this; What is the current situation for Eurocorps? When is the year that Europe can say "we have our own army"? Russia is increasing its military budget by 40% next year.

[WhoCares 0]

Usually it takes just a little while to adjust the local economy around the closed bases. Some examples I remember, the Airport Zweibruecken was turned in a small civilian airport and a biiig shopping mall (Outlet Center) (actually, there was more fear because of the Outlet Center than the loss of the americans ). Actually, while doing my conscript time in Zweibruecken, my unit even helped to break down some installations at the airport (some enforced emplacements).

Another success story would be the Airport Hahn, closed many years ago and now a growing civillian airport, mostly used by cheap airliners (Frankfurt/Hahn, ~100km from Frankfurt...)

And as a side note, this old unit I served with got closed because of cutted funds by the USA in the early 90s. It was part of WHNS (War Host Nation Support) contracts and in times of crisis we would have operated Misau, the biggest ammo dump in Germany (if not Europe)...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I was visiting my cousin in little town in Germany nereby Czech border, and i have been told, and than practised it, that "Gruss got" is beeing tell even to completely strangers there.

if you say "gruss gott" to anyone else than a bavarian you show that you really are a strange stranger.  

in northern germany people could have problems trying not to laugh at you... sounds weird, but it's that way.

It is like greeting with "howdy" in a metro-sexual bar in NewYork.

-------

Germans are usually inpolite to strangers. But they dont mean it. Greet them, stay friendly and accept that they are often just too shy to be nice and consequently pretend to be arrogant. Inside, noone gets angry about a smile. Social-wise germans are just a bit crippled.

[theavonlady 2]

Try saying "hello" to a stranger on the streets of New York.

I was born and raised in NYC and I've gone back there for visits quite often.

In all of my visits after 9/11, I have noticed a sharp friendlier change of behavior towards strangers on the streets, in buses and on the subways.

I had to pinch myself at first to be sure that I was really in NY.

[denoir 0]

Too bad I've been to a couple of places in the US (Boston, LA, Columbus, NYC..) and New York was the only place I really liked. The attitude towards strangers is really a part of the metropolitan atmosphere. There's nothing more annoying than small-town friendliness.

I guess I'm a bit asocial on that point. But really, when I'm out shopping or whatver, I'm really not in the mood of socializing with people I don't care about.

It's nice in Stockholm where I live compared to Västerĺs, my home town (population 130,000). People don't give a crap about each other and mind their own business.

[GoOB 0]

It's nice in Stockholm where I live compared to Västerĺs, my home town (population 130,000). People don't give a crap about each other and mind their own business.

It can be quite nice not having everyone saying "Hello" every ten seconds. But in my opinion, it is nowhere near as unfriendly as in other places.

For example:

A friend of mine lost his wallet, and his ticket to the "ung 08"-festival. Outside of Ĺhlens (a department store in central Stockholm), a few minutes later he gets a call from a stranger saying they had found his things outside in the street. He quickly returned to Ĺhlens to retrive his things, which he didn't know he had lost until he recieved the call.

All in all I have to say Stockholm is the perfect blend, or maybe it's the Swedish attitude in general. An urban attitude, but not an unpleasant one.

EDIT: Forgot myself a word in there