The Iraq thread 4

[Sophion-Black 0]

Quote[/b] ]There was NO AQ presence in Iraq prior to the war, the US have invited them to Iraq and provided them with a country in anarchy.

The US is a country that is blamed for everything going wrong, the terrorists know that if they keep blowing up civvies the rest of the world would blame the US and the US will leave. they saw this tactic during the soviet invasion of Afghanistan. they was it done by the vietcong in Vietnam. they are betting that if they can continue with this strategy they will win. AND ITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT GIVE THEM HOPE! You doubt the ability of our men and women in uniform and question their actions when most of them have no control of being there.

Quote[/b] ]This sentence has also been heard alot from the guys who took part in US massacres on Iraqui soil.

if you can list three specific massacres than you are doing better than CNN. The US soldier isn't some trigger-happy cowboy hell-bent on revenge. he's at the mercy of his officers who are constantly scolded about every political screw up the whole army has done. Trust me when I say the common US soldier doesn't want the phrase "shit rolls" proven to them the hard way. Check your facts.

Quote[/b] ]So what ? Over 160 UN peacekeeping/enforcing missions have been and are that way.

Let me guess, your referring to former Yugoslavia. Another dictator-type regime toppled and had the whole area explode into chaos from deep resentment of each other. Is there a difference? Yes. This time neighboring countries can't seem to keep their own people from getting shot in a different country.

Quote[/b] ]If you have a knowledge-gap there it´s a flaw in your educational and military-training system, but not the foult of average Iraqui-Joe who gets fired upon by some gun-ho americans who have no idea on how to deal with such situations.

Is that why the US has training to combat insurgency and to detect and destroy IED's?

Your biased assumption has a very fatal flaw. The majority of Iraqi civilians killed by US gunfire is because they failed to stop at a checkpoint, got caught at the wrong place when Jihad-Joe was shooting at the US, or is killed when holding a gun pointing at a very provocative angle.

The common US soldier has been trained hard to deal with stress and is not hesitant to take action against a potential threat.

Quote[/b] ]Best joke ever. You maybe want to read what the US guy who is responsible for recruiting the army says about it.

and what does he say oh man who maketh up junk? Does it go something along the lines of the ISF now have control of three provinces, or that hey have been a key role in conducting present operations, or that less than a year ago the US was actually the reserve for an operation carried out by the ISF.

Quote[/b] ]Rewriting history, or simply lack of knowledge ?

Iraq was fully compliant with the UN at the time US started the war, that´s why the UN labeled this war illegal.

is that why in '98 the US congress found that he was not and strongly urged the pres (Clinton) to take action? Iraq was never compliant from '91, when the UN called for the coalition to leave. You see how well the UN is? waste of time. About fully compliant... check out this DoD presentation:

DoD Briefing on Iraqi Denial and Deception

Note that not all the photos are from the US.

[Duke 0]

Messiah, You are a very respectable being if I must say. Most people that would argue this sort of topic with me, would flame, and or just start calling names, and not making sense, also being disrespectful towards other opinions. You sir I must thank for upholding such arguements. We do both have our differences. That is what makes this world go round. USA, its liberties, freedom of speech, and rights are all about the differences in beliefs and opinions. Our men and women serve for it every day. like yours as well.

Sophion,

You are very right. You have just said everything that I basically wanted to in this post. Thnx for sparing me all the typing.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]You doubt the ability of our men and women in uniform and question their actions when most of them have no control of being there.

Christ, you keep accusing people criticizing USA of talking shit about the soldiers in Iraq...

First of all, I'm sure most people here are aware that US troops probably are well trained, but that doesn't mean they are the best.

Second of all, people don't question US troops actions, people question US leaders actions and decisions...

[Duke 0]

I'll admit, there are a few shady things going on in the Higher Authority in the Govt that i myself do not go for. BUT, I still feel strongly for the things that I have ranted about above.

[Baff1 0]

Quote[/b] ]If you have a knowledge-gap there it´s a flaw in your educational and military-training system, but not the foult of average Iraqui-Joe who gets fired upon by some gun-ho americans who have no idea on how to deal with such situations.

Is that why the US has training to combat insurgency and to detect and destroy IED's?

Your biased assumption has a very fatal flaw. The majority of Iraqi civilians killed by US gunfire is because they failed to stop at a checkpoint, got caught at the wrong place when Jihad-Joe was shooting at the US, or is killed when holding a gun pointing at a very provocative angle.

The common US soldier has been trained hard to deal with stress and is not hesitant to take action against a potential threat.

Which is a little over half the amount of training some other soldiers in theatre recieve.

On the whole I think they behave well and are a credit to their country. However I think the lack of skills and training is endemic from the top down. They didn't know it start with, they have no one to train them, they are learning the hard way.  

They will be learning fast.

Unfortunately the damage has already been done. They lost the support of the local population right at the beginning.

In the next war, I expect we will see things managed differently.

American's shoot first policy is a big part of the problem. First principle is that an American life is worth more than an Iraqi life. Force protection.

Worse, that a civilians life is worth less than a soldiers.

This is not the heroes code, and a police force that is not willing to place itself in harms way to protect it's civilians is a police force to be feared not respected.

The German SS had the same trouble. A foreign country is no place for a supremacist.

Quote[/b] ]is that why in '98 the US congress found that he was not and strongly urged the pres (Clinton) to take action? Iraq was never compliant from '91, when the UN called for the coalition to leave. You see how well the UN is? waste of time. About fully compliant... check out this DoD presentation:

As you rightly pointed out earlier, the UN is a diplomatic institution representing many of the nations of the world.

The U.S. congress doesn't get to decide whether someone is in breach of U.N. resolutions, they get one vote.

The whole purpose of the U.N. as envisioned by the U.S. when they set it up was that no one nation would ever again be in a position to override the will of other nations and risk global security by starting wars.

Now that it doesn't suit the American agenda the U.N. is a bad idea?

In which case you won't be suprised to learn that world no longer trusts America or believes in the U.S. as a fair minded society dedicated to liberty, justice and world peace.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Thats a bunch of crap and you know it, both the Iraqi and Afghani civvilians are impressed by the precesion of the bombs. the only thing that needs touching up is the intell. that in itself would give the accuracy a perfect status.

No, I know better:

Since ISAF mission has been more or less merged with the US led OEF campaign the situation in Afghanistan has worsened a lot, for the troops and for the civillians, but let´s have a look at some solid numbers first. Numbers, you can´t debate away:

From january to october 2006, 170 OEF and ISAF troops have been killed, over 3000 afghans have been killed in the same period of time. In the year 2002 there were around 5 attacks on ISAF and OEF per month. The number grew up to around 25 per month in the year 2005.

Now in 2006 we had a ratio of more than 100 per month !

Now you Sophion-Black either have a huge thinking problem or are just not up-to-date, willingly or not.

The dramatic rise in violence even led to a ROE change for ISAF troops, something that wouldn´t have been necessary if you were right, which you blatantly aren´t.

Even in the relatively secure north the BW is uparmouring and is sending tanks to protect their own troops, something that would not be necessary if everything is running so fine, as you claim.

The south of afhanistan and the east of afghanistan are in flames, large contingents of Taleban, who are recruiting in masses as opposition against ISAF and OEF has risen sharply among the civillian population due to the inprecise airial attacks which often lead to civillian casualties do attack ISAF and OEF in the open and they are regaining support from the population.

This is in sharp contrast to your lies my friend. The ISAF almost doubled their troops since the violence in Afghanistan is on a sharp rise.

It may be interesting for you that the average mortality rate of ISAF and OEF contingents is higher than the mortality rate of US soldiers in Iraq.

You don´t believe it it ? Just read what the Gen.David Richards, current ISAF commander has to say:

"without visible improvements in the daily lives of ordinary Afghans in the next six months, up to 70 percent of Afghans could shift their allegiance to the Taliban-led insurgency"

Now come in again with your made-up-self-constructed propaganda.

Quote[/b] ]

1) The ratio is very differant than what you create. Most of the Talaban is killed while leaving the cities. All the US has to do is have eyes in the sky and hunt them down when they leave. Thats how it was when the US first invaded Afghanistan. The Talaban would simply try leave, but they were killed tired.

2) The only turmoil I hear is that the Talaban is boarder hopping in the south. The rest of the country is relitiveley calm. but there are occasional suicide bombings.

Simply bullshit.

Quote[/b] ]The United States has the right to defend itself.

Be explicit, when and how did Iraq do attack the US ?

You´re still riding the lame duck of WMD ?

You know something we all here don´t know ?

Share it, or make yourself look like a looney.

Quote[/b] ]It was! you didn't see carpet bombers turn Iraq into a huge crater. You didn't see tanks going through random buildings for the hell of it. you didn't see riflemen barge into common buildings like mosques or schools.

Quote[/b] ]And incendieary munitions, the US hasn't used them since the signing of Protocol III in 1980 put a stop to it. Because of that, US troops ar NOT issued anything of incendieary nature.

Captain James T Cobb on use of WP ammunition during the raid on Fallujah

OMG, he gotta be...a...liberal...traitor ?

Fact:

WP ammunition in use with US forces

M 15 grenade

M 110 155mm

M 416 105mm

M 722 60mm mortar

M 825 155mm

M 929 120mm mortar

And the new generation fuel-gel bomb,

the Mark-77

Keep trying to sell your nonsense elsewhere, but not on a forum with people having a military background.

I´d also like to know where you pull the numbers of the victims of Fallujah siege from ? US have repeatedly stated that there was no body-count in Fallujah and ambulances or medical teams have not been able to go into the town during the siege as the US sealed it off.

Please post a link.

Quote[/b] ]The US is a country that is blamed for everything going wrong, the terrorists know that if they keep blowing up civvies the rest of the world would blame the US and the US will leave.

Me guilty ?

Again,

There was NO AQ presence in Iraq prior to the war, the US have invited them to Iraq and provided them with a country in anarchy. GW disbanded the border-guards right at the start of the war. No borders, no security. -> nice invitation to AQ.

And now I am guilty ?

Keep trying

Quote[/b] ]You doubt the ability of our men and women in uniform and question their actions when most of them have no control of being there.

No I don´t, the troops on the ground are the ones who got my full sympathy, they are the ones who have to bleed for the decisions of a brainless government which actually never got a plan others than making some buck. They are selling their troops to corporate interests, so if you want to point fingers point them at your government. If you were in support for your troops you would question the GW reasoning and approach.

So infact it´s you who is not respecting your servicemen in uniform.

Quote[/b] ]Check your facts.

I suggest you have look at the current investigations and trials held at US military courts and come in again. I know my facts.

Quote[/b] ]Let me guess, your referring to former Yugoslavia.

Heh, funny.

No I´m talking about 160 worldwide UN missions that all leave/left the UN troops between enemy factions facing the subtile dangers of unpredictable behaviour of participants.

Quote[/b] ]Is that why the US has training to combat insurgency and to detect and destroy IED's?

What has this to do with the interaction with civillians, a thing the US troops have shown they are not trained at. You´re moderatly good at shooting, but even Rumsy confirmed that you have a big deficit in communicating with locals and understanding their culture and religious boundaries. That´s the way you make great enemies. Mission accomplished.

Quote[/b] ]The majority of Iraqi civilians killed by US gunfire is because they failed to stop at a checkpoint, got caught at the wrong place when Jihad-Joe was shooting at the US, or is killed when holding a gun pointing at a very provocative angle.

Apart from pulling something out of your ass again, please give us all some solid link about those numbers and incidents. Again, I´ll be happily awaiting it as the US Centcom has repeatedly stated that they do NOT count or track numbers of civillians casualties.

Quote[/b] ]The common US soldier has been trained hard to deal with stress and is not hesitant to take action against a potential threat.

Oh great, aren´t those basics for soldiers worldwide ?

You´re missing the interaction part though, as it was missed in the runup of the war. The results were live on CNN. Whoopie !

Maybe that´s why the Iraquis want you out of the country ?

Just wondering.

Quote[/b] ]and what does he say oh man who maketh up junk?

Google is your friend.

Quote[/b] ]is that why in '98 the US congress found that he was not and strongly urged the pres (Clinton) to take action? Iraq was never compliant from '91, when the UN called for the coalition to leave. You see how well the UN is? waste of time. About fully compliant... check out this DoD presentation:

Have you just popped from the egg or have you been caught in a time-loop ?

Iraq was fully compliant, weapon inspectors had acess to Iraq, they found nothing, they destroyed a large number of stockpiles during their presence and the US has found what again ?

Nothing ?

No problemo eh, if your number one reason for the war just goes straight out of the window ?

[Duke 0]

Balschoiw,

Where are you not understanding his post? He was talking about the War in Afghanistan about the South and all, but you mention Iraq. Can you read, or is it that you just choose to ignore the Progress in Afghanistan because we're doing very well there compared to what Russia or any of its former Soviet union partners could dream of?

[Balschoiw 0]

I was answering his 2 posts.

If you can´t read, stay away.

Quote[/b] ] because we're doing very well there compared to what Russia or any of its former Soviet union partners could dream of

You got some great knowledge in history

[Duke 0]

You answered his two posts? he was talking about Afghanistan in the one and you answered to it by talking about Iraq, but whatever Mr.Genius

More knowledge in History?

Tell me something the damn Russians or any of its former USSR partners ever did successfully besides WWII.

[fardwark 0]

Beat the US into space?

[Duke 0]

"Beat the US into space"

Equals

How many of their Astronauts were lost in Space

How much of their Equipment has failed?

Quantity vs Quality = Failure

[Bordoy 0]

"Beat the US into space"

           Equals

How many of their Astronauts were lost in Space

How much of their Equipment has failed?

Quantity vs Quality = Failure  

American components, Russian components, all made in Taiwan.

[Messiah 2]

Quote[/b] ]"Beat the US into space"

Equals

How many of their Astronauts were lost in Space

How much of their Equipment has failed?

Quantity vs Quality = Failure

If you believe the NASA equipment and safety record to be 'better' then you sare sadly mistaken, and again it highlights your blind patriotism and unwillingness to acknoledge that the USA isnt all mighty and godly.

to date, these are the official figures:

US:

In Flight - 18 Deaths

Training - 11 Deaths

Ground Crew - 70 Deaths

Total 99 Deaths as a result of the all conquering, do no wrong, amazing NASA of the USA.

USSR and Russia:

In Flight - 4 Deaths

Potentially add 1 more given the un comfirmed predesesor to Gagarin, who, if rumours are to be believed, was the actual first man in space, but died and hence the Russians 'forgot' about him.

Possible total of 5 for the really bad at space flight USSR and Russia...

so, if I'm not mistaken, the US actually have a worse record (although yes, everyone is aware that the Soviet regime has an amazing ability to not report disasters, I'm merely commenting on the known ones, which is all that you could be doing Duke )

BUT, in all technicality, the only men who actually died in space or possibly were lost in space (Gagarins predecessor), do belong soley to the USSR...

Quote[/b] ]"Let us bury the fact that we are relying on a first generation prototype vehicle to get us back and forth to this space station. Let us cover-up the fact that we have dismissed, laid off, or fired engineers and cut safety programs to make up for the cost overruns on the space station. Let us not forget that the temporal appearance of success gets us further congressional funding."

obviously this has nothing to do with Iraq, but its grounding point is that it shows that any sort of discussion with yourself is nigh-on impossible because you refuse to beleive that US do no wrong, or screw anything up... thus your arguments in the Iraq thread, however well you ground them or believe in them, come across less credible to the majority here

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]You answered his two posts? he was talking about Afghanistan in the one and you answered to it by talking about Iraq, but whatever Mr.Genius

Are you the one the post is adressed to ?

I guess Sophion has a bit more brain and will be able to put it into context.

As for you, just ignore it if you can´t understand it. Seems to be working in a lot of your kowledge-gaps aswell, so why worrying about something you don´t understand as it´s maybe beyond your horizon.

Just troll away if you got nothing to say.

[Duke 0]

I never said once that the US is "godly" or "never wrong".

We have had accidents, it is something we learn from.

But, Russian people have even admitted on TV, even Generals, that their Space Equipment is not at all as good as their propaganda made it all out to be. As for Iraq, Bal, whatever your name is, I could care less, I understood every post you've made. BUT, When Sophion was talking about Afghanistan, you changed it to Iraq. Face it, Afghanistan is going fairly well, Iraq isn't going as well as Afghanistan. Could Russia have ever won in Afghanistan? Maybe if they were a bit more Intelligent. Vladimir Putin even said to Bush it would be no task for us to take, and to look at their mistakes. Shit, within Months we had most of their fortifications destroyed and whatnot. That alone just proves our Intelligence capabilities compared to Russia.

Anyways, Forget Russia, they mean nothing anymore anyway, This is about Iraq. I won't go off topic anymore.

[Dark_vityaz 0]

Will never understand why americans guys havn't been taught by Soviet experience in war against Islamic country?

[Duke 0]

If we would have listened to Russia about Afghanistan, we would have gotten noplace, just like them.

[ralphwiggum 6]

This is called Iraq thread.

Anyone who gets away from the original thread will be dealt with

[Baff1 0]

Balschoiw,

  Where are you not understanding his post? He was talking about the War in Afghanistan about the South and all, but you mention Iraq. Can you read, or is it that you just choose to ignore the Progress in Afghanistan because we're doing very well there compared to what Russia or any of its former Soviet union partners could dream of?

Sounds like fantasy talk to me.

The Soviets recruited a far bigger domestic army and the communist government controlled a far greater area of the province than the current one.

We aren't doing any better, it isn't going fantastic. It's the same as it has ever been under the Russians, the same as it was under the British.

That's the nature of the beast.

Quote[/b] ]If we would have listened to Russia about Afghanistan, we would have gotten noplace, just like them.

Ignoring the lessons of history, assuming you know better than those who have done it before you is a very foolish conceit.

There are children at the back of my class who feel the same. They know it all already. No one can teach them anything.

Born not only with great intelligence, but wisdom. The knowledge and experience of the ages psychicly absorbed before child birth.

[Duke 0]

The Soviets were supposed to be so Glorious and Great, but peasants in Afghanistan made an example out of them. Russians were going into villages and slaughtering civilians. Why were they even there in the first place. Anywayz, I'm off this topic. It's gone out the window already.

[Baff1 0]

The Soviets failed, the British failed.

That's two greater powers than the ones currently there.

NB. The Soviets aren't the only ones who have been slaughtering civilians in Afghanistan. Now are they?

Propaganda cuts both ways you know.

It's a side effect of war mate. You should factor it into the equation from the beginning.

[EiZei 0]

The Soviets were supposed to be so Glorious and Great, but peasants in Afghanistan made an example out of them. Russians were going into villages and slaughtering civilians. Why were they even there in the first place.  Anywayz, I'm off this topic. It's gone out the window already.

And that's a prime example why this "if all the hippies would shut up we would have won this thing like 2 years ago"-talk is utter bullshit.

[Duke 0]

Baff1, yers it works both ways, and yes it is a side effect of War.

[Dark_vityaz 0]

If we would have listened to Russia about Afghanistan, we would have gotten noplace, just like them.

And what? They have place...and every day 1-2 soldiers die. I wonder if american mothers share your opinion?

[Duke 0]

Actually many do, Because they know what we're doing is right.

Whether it be the damn Politics or not, We all support our Troops.

A good song for someone to listen to, "Have You Forgotten?" By Darryl Worley.