The Iraq thread 4

[SpongeBob 0]

It's 'cuz the insurgents made the mistake of tangling with the "good ol' boys" from Kentucky.  

A picture of the Humvee escort.

[ralphwiggum 6]

i saw the news last night and they said they killed and wounded about 27 insurgents in that firefight. given that there were only 12 or so guys, and getting ambushed, they did nice job.

however, this should also give some food for thought. what this says is that it is still a war zone and it is far from being over. had this been an Iraqi convoy without US support, it surely would have been taken over. so US is in to this a bit too deep.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]In this photo released by the U.S. Army Wednesday, March 23, 2005, U.S. Army 503rd MP Battalion, 18th MP Brigade gunner SPC Casey Cooper stands next to a his damaged Humvee near Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites) recently, after it received a direct hit from a rocket-propelled grenade, knocking him unconscious. Cooper was revived and helped his fellow soldiers defeat an attack on a coalition supply convoy March 20, about 18 miles southeast of Baghdad, according to U.S. officials. (AP Photo/U.S. Army, Sgt. 1st Class Marshall P. Ware)

I guess those up-armored humvees work or was it a crappy warhead. Anyway,

A bloody week for the insurgents

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....raq

Quote[/b] ]

In three days, according to Iraqi and U.S. officials' accounts, troops have killed at least 128 insurgents nationwide, culminating in the announcement of Tuesday's attack by Iraqi commandos, backed by U.S. air and ground fire. On Sunday, U.S. soldiers killed 26 insurgents south of Baghdad, while a fight during an ambush on an Iraqi security envoy killed 17 militants on Monday.

"This string of successes does have positive repercussions in that it may convince Iraqis not supporting the insurgents — but not supporting the United States either — to perceive that the tide is turning and not go with the insurgents," said Nora Bensahel, a Washington-based Iraq analyst for Rand Corp.

But while it's been "a fairly successful few days," Bensahel cautioned that "there's a long, long way to go."

The U.S. military gave the first report of the Lake Tharthar raid, saying that seven commandos and an unspecified number of militants were killed. The military declined Wednesday to confirm the Iraqi government's death toll of 85 militants, and it was impossible to check the figure independently.

[Bordoy 0]

Where are all these insurgents coming from, they're like the VC but worse.

[walker 0]

Hi all

As this factor is now starting to virtualy run the US economy and because of the explosion at a key US refinery I thought the matter should be once more raised.

Quote[/b] ]Texas Oil Explosion: Some Humans Dead, Barrel Prices Rising

March 23, 2005

Is it sick?

Is it disrespectful to the dead and the dying, the injured and affected by the explosion at the Texas City oil refinery?

The news reports have barely got past describing what actually happened and what human life is affected before we're told that American gasoline has leapt to $1.60 a barrel.

These economic data are especially relatable since US crude inventories had just risen to their highest level in three years, as funds have been switching from oil to commodities because of the weak dollar.

Airline stocks had just been going up, because the companies' biggest expense, jet fuel, was plummeting in price. Opec had just made some gestures towards the idea of pumping more oil to keep prices down. And now this. It's economically thrilling.

But is it sick?

Well, it's certainly cruder than a gallon of black gold, and as tasteless as a Texan oil baron's guest bedroom. But, no: it's not sick.

We're constantly being told that the reason we have to keep subjugating and invading other countries is to defend democracy, and also that democracy is inseparable from growth-oriented capitalism. And we all know what fuels the fire under that growth.

Of course, there are some who argue that when an American government made of a bunch of oil barons occupies the oil-rich Middle East and sets up army camps named after the oil companies while securing the passage of oil -- well, that oil may have something to do with it.

Either way, petrol's the big story. Army veterans found that they lost out to oil in Bush's recent budget. The Far East and Russia are horse-trading over pipelines, the outcome of which may determine wars a generation down the line. From militants in Nigeria to CIA coups in Venezuela, there's trouble over petrol. And when we want to know whether America really is going to occupy Iran as well, we ask the oil barons. For the record, here's the opinion of Subir Raha, the government-appointed head of India's biggest oil company:

"You launch one more attack and you can't even guess where the speculation will go. With the stalemate in Afghanistan, stalemate in Iraq and elsewhere, you already have a price of $55 a barrel."

So we should welcome the immediate concentration on the matter of who's got how much of the black stuff. When these issues are restricted to the financial section, it's easier to believe that the major world events have got the slightest thing to do with freedom or decency. It's horrible times like this that the economic reality bleeds through.

http://www.lnreview.co.uk/news/004955.php

Current speculators are after reaching a $60 a barrel level for Oil over the next 2 months examine the 3 monthly cycle of oil prices to get an idea of how the speculators have been riding a seriously profitable upward rollercoaster. With threats to oil production in Iraq and Venezuela pushing up their profits in a nice predictable way (as long as you know when the threats will be anounced)

However the explosion today destroying a top Texas refinery that suplies 3% of the US gas at the pump as well as massive amounts of chemicals used in the plastics and other industries may well have thrown off the normal everyday speculator's calculations.

In the mean time all the big oil families like the Bin Ladens, the Bushs, the Bakers and the Cheyneys will be very happy with their soaring profits.

Oil was due to peak at arround $55 (it reached $57) this week and then drop back and everyone in the industry was expecting oil to drop as it did during the day until the explosion.

Seems oil will hit the $60 a whole lot sooner. (it would be interesting to see who was buying lots of oil shares on the expected fall of oil prices at a time no one should be investing yet some people were, very, very odd as this explosion will have made them a whole lot richer, hmm)

In the mean time it is odd that several hours after the explosion I could not find anything on US news websites yet it was all over international and UK web sites.

You can read about the eplosion hear on the UK media.

Quote[/b] ]Huge blast rocks Texas oil plant

An explosion has rocked an oil refinery in Texas, killing at least four people, according to local TV reports.

Witnesses said the BP plant in Texas City was shaken by loud, powerful explosions with vast flames.

Television pictures showed firefighters picking through the smoking wreckage, as emergency services warned people living nearby to stay indoors.

US gasoline prices jumped to as word of the explosion hit financial markets, reaching $1.604 (Å0.8589) per gallon.

BP spokesman Hugh Depland did not give an official casualty figure, but confirmed that some people had died in the blast.

'Sonic boom'

The explosion happened at 1330 (1930 GMT) at the western end of the plant, which covers an area of almost 500 hectares.

The Texas City refinery, 35 miles (55km) from Houston, is the third biggest in the US, employing 2,000 people

It processes roughly 450 million barrels of crude oil each day.

That figure is approximately 3% of the US' domestic oil supply and one-third of BP's output across the US.

In a statement, BP said: "Company and area emergency crews are responding and working to get the situation under control.

"BP can confirm the incident has caused multiple injuries and that one person has been life-flighted from the scene. Plant officials have not confirmed any fatalities," it said.

Texas City resident Mike Martin described "a real loud explosion, like a sonic boom".

"It shook the pictures bad enough to where it knocked them off the wall. And it frightened me, so I jumped out of bed."

Judith Mantell, 62, told the Houston Chronicle that the blast lifted her vehicle off the ground at her home five miles (8km) away.

"I've never seen flames that high from anything. They were bright orange, with yellow on the side," she said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4377519.stm

Kind Regards Walker

[Wilco 944]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050323/capt.bag11703232208.iraq_bag117.jpg

Quote[/b] ]In this photo released by the U.S. Army Wednesday, March 23, 2005, U.S. Army 503rd MP Battalion, 18th MP Brigade gunner SPC Casey Cooper stands next to a his damaged Humvee near Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites) recently, after it received a direct hit from a rocket-propelled grenade, knocking him unconscious. Cooper was revived and helped his fellow soldiers defeat an attack on a coalition supply convoy March 20, about 18 miles southeast of Baghdad, according to U.S. officials. (AP Photo/U.S. Army, Sgt. 1st Class Marshall P. Ware)

I guess those up-armored humvees work or was it a crappy warhead. Anyway,

A bloody week for the insurgents

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....raq

Quote[/b] ]

In three days, according to Iraqi and U.S. officials' accounts, troops have killed at least 128 insurgents nationwide, culminating in the announcement of Tuesday's attack by Iraqi commandos, backed by U.S. air and ground fire. On Sunday, U.S. soldiers killed 26 insurgents south of Baghdad, while a fight during an ambush on an Iraqi security envoy killed 17 militants on Monday.

"This string of successes does have positive repercussions in that it may convince Iraqis not supporting the insurgents — but not supporting the United States either — to perceive that the tide is turning and not go with the insurgents," said Nora Bensahel, a Washington-based Iraq analyst for Rand Corp.

But while it's been "a fairly successful few days," Bensahel cautioned that "there's a long, long way to go."

The U.S. military gave the first report of the Lake Tharthar raid, saying that seven commandos and an unspecified number of militants were killed. The military declined Wednesday to confirm the Iraqi government's death toll of 85 militants, and it was impossible to check the figure independently.

Lucky soldier, hooah to him and thank god for uparmored hummers.

Quote[/b] ]

Iraqi civilians return fire, kill 3 gunmen

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Shopkeepers and residents on one of Baghdad's main streets pulled out their own guns Tuesday and killed three insurgents when hooded men began shooting at passers-by, giving a rare victory to civilians increasingly frustrated by the violence bleeding Iraq.

The clash in the capital's southern Doura neighborhood erupted when militants in three cars sprayed bullets at shoppers. Three people - a man, a woman and a child - were wounded.

The motive was unclear, but the ethnically mixed neighborhood has seen previous attacks. Earlier in the day, gunmen in the same quarter killed a policeman as he drove to work, police Lt. Col. Hafidh Al-Ghrayri said.

A forceful citizen response is rare but not unheard of in a country where conflict has become commonplace and the law allows each home to have a weapon. Early this month, police said, townsmen in Wihda, 25 miles south of Baghdad, attacked a group of militants believed to be planning to raid the town; the townsmen killed seven.

Tuesday's gunbattle came as a seven-member U.S. congressional delegation paid a one-day visit to Baghdad, and the man expected to serve as the next prime minister, Shiite politician Ibrahim al-Jaafari, reportedly told the group he was in no hurry for U.S. troops to leave Iraq.

Sen. Barbara Boxer, a Democrat from California who strongly opposed the war, said al-Jaafari didn't seem as "upbeat as our people, who seem to be very excited about the quality of the Iraqi police force."

"My sense was he was certainly in no rush to hand over security to his new police force," she said.

Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn., agreed, saying "it's too early to declare success." But Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., expressed "quiet optimism" about Iraq's future.

Iraq's current prime minister, Ayad Allawi, urged the new National Assembly to speed negotiations on forming a coalition government "so as to resume the operation of rebuilding Iraq in all fields."

In other developments Tuesday:

Iraqi commandos backed by U.S. ground and air fire attacked an apparent insurgent training camp near Lake Tharthar in eastern Iraq, killing an undetermined number of militants and capturing 20, the U.S. military said. Seven commandos were reported dead and six wounded.

In the northern city of Mosul, the deputy police commander, Col. Wathiq Ali, said 17 militants were killed and 14 captured late Monday during an assassination attempt on police officials.

Also in Mosul, a roadside bomb that exploded near a U.S. patrol killed four civilians. It wasn't immediately clear whether the troops suffered casualties.

In the southern city of Kut, morgue officials said they had received a half-dozen corpses of Iraqi army soldiers, each with bound hands and bullet-riddled heads and torsos. Six Iraqi soldiers were reported kidnapped Monday in Anbar province, west of Baghdad, police said.

The U.S. military reported that a Marine died Monday in Anbar province, which contains the flashpoint cities of Fallujah and Ramadi. No further details were given.

Seems like the civilians are finally doing something about it.

edit: don't quote images. RW

[red oct 2]

what kind of body armor is that soldier wearing? i haven't seen too many vests being used in Iraq that came w/ sleeves to protect the arms.

[walker 0]

Hi Red Oct

There was a spate of snyper shootings a while back. They were targeting chinks in body armour one of which was in through the arm socket that looks like an in theatre soldiers reaction to that.

Experienced Iraqi snypers with 100s of kills from the Iran Iraq war are an unfortunate aspect of this war. There was report about it in this thread earlier.

The extra bit of armour is the kind of thing that has distinguished the soldiers from the beginning of a war from soldiers further into it in all wars.

Look at tanks on any side at the start of their experience in WWII and at the end look how much extra crap has apeared, ditto soldiers gear at the start of the Vietnam war and the end.

Of course the thing about all that armour and indeed helmets is that it divorces you from the environment and the people. It is what the brits found in Ireland. The more armour you wear, the more threataining you apear, the more the locals are frightened of you, the less cooperation you get, the more people who see you as the problem, the more insurgents you get.

It is a case of balance wear it when you have to and are not likely to be in contact with civilians. Otherwise in order to win the peace you have to have the confidence to take the risk and not wear body armour and helmets. The insurgents will take advantage you will take more casualties.

If you want a true indicator of how bad the situation is for US soldiers in Iraq a look how much body armour they are having to wear. You wear lots of armour because you feel threatened. In this case he is wearing tons cause he was just in a major fire fight.

Kind Regards Walker

[Placebo 28]

Oil thread merged into Iraq war thread, they're the same topics, we don't need seperate threads

[quicksand 0]

Insurgents control raided 'Qaeda-Baath' training camp in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]SAMARRA, Iraq (AFP) - About 30 to 40 fighters were seen at the lakeside training camp attacked by US and Iraqi forces the day before, claiming they had never left, an AFP correspondent who visited the site said.

In the capital, Shiite political leaders said the parliament could convene Saturday to vote on Iraq 's first elected post-Saddam Hussein in government.

The correspondent, who traveled with other journalists to the camp in the village of Ain al-Hilwa on Lake Tharthar, 200 kilometres (120 miles) north of Baghdad, said he saw the remains of three burnt-out vehicles on a dusty road leading to the site.

A few mud huts were damaged and big craters gouged the ground.

One of the fighters, who called himself Mohammed Amer and claimed to belong to the Secret Islamic Army, said they had never left the base.

He also said only 11 of his comrades were killed in airstrikes on the site.

Iraqi commanders have said 85 suspected insurgents were killed in an assault by Iraqi troops and US aircraft on the camp Tuesday, adding that no one was captured and others had fled by boat.

Asked about the presence of rebels at the camp late Wednesday, a member of the Iraqi police commandos that took part in the operation said Iraqi and US troops withdrew from the area at about 6:30 pm (1530 GMT) Tuesday.

Local hospitals told AFP they had received no casualties from the battle.

"The commandos killed 35 and US air raids killed 50. But no one was captured and many escaped by boat," General Adnan Thabet, a senior advisor to the interior ministry, earlier told AFP by phone from Samarra.

"During the fight, 30 boats left."

A statement from the outgoing government, which confirmed the insurgent toll, said one Algerian was captured.

"The terrorists had planned on attacking Samarra by using a large number of VBIEDs (car bombs) that were found at the facility," it said.

The "terror camp", frequented by members of Saddam's Baath party and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's branch of Al-Qaeda, was built after the US offensive to retake the rebel enclave of Fallujah in November, Thabet said.

"They were Zarqawi followers and Baathists from the old military because they knew how to fight. They fought like old soldiers."

Besides Fallujah, where rebels had turned the entire town into one giant command centre before November, the only other known strike on a suspected rebel camp was by US forces near Qaim on the Syrian border in June 2003.

"This was a serious military camp with a living section and guard posts," said a commando officer, named Jalil, who took part in the operation.

He said fighters had been using fishing boats to cross the vast man-made Tharthar Lake from tense Al-Anbar province to the west to the tiny village of Ain al-Hilwa on the border with Salaheddin province, another restive area.

Jalil said machine guns, rockets, arms and training manuals including ones on how to make roadside bombs were found at the camp along with fake identification cards, passports and documents that proved the presence of foreigners, long blamed for the bulk of the insurgency.

He estimated that some 100 fighters might have been at the camp at the time of the attack.

Thabet said six commandos were killed and four wounded.

A US military spokesman, Lieutenant Colonel Richard Goldenberger, confirmed the operation and said Apache attack and Kiowa Warrior reconnaissance helicopters backed the commandos.

He said what started as an Iraqi mission quickly turned into a joint one after fighters opened fire on the some 240 members of the interior ministry's 1st Commando Battalion approaching the camp.

"More important than the number of insurgent casualties is the fact that we have disabled their capabilities and denied them a safe haven,"he said.

Further north and in another hotbed of the Sunni-led insurgency, a suicide car bomb in Mosul hit a US military convoy, wounding two US and two Iraqi soldiers, the military said.

An 11-year-old girl was killed when a mortar round struck a school in Amariyah, west of the capital, said medical sources. Another girl was wounded.

And five bodies, all shot in the head except for the corpse of a female university student who also had her mouth cut open with a knife, were found on farmland near Suwaira, 50 kilometres (30 miles) south of the capital, said police Lieutenant Colonel Khalil Obeid.

..........

Quote[/b] ]"More important than the number of insurgent casualties is the fact that we have disabled their capabilities and denied them a safe haven,"he said.

Quote[/b] ]About 30 to 40 fighters were seen at the lakeside training camp attacked by US and Iraqi forces the day before, claiming they had never left, an AFP correspondent who visited the site said.

*Remembers Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri capture story

*Remembers Al-Sadr mosque take over story

Seriously though,I understand why they are lying about their operations sometimes claiming victory in battles then never even happend.The average Iraqi soldier moral is very low,so any propaganda is good to promote their confidence that they could be indeed able to fight the insurgents by themselves without US forces nanying them though the course.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Seriously though,I understand why they are lying about their operations sometimes claiming victory in battles then never even happend.The average Iraqi soldier moral is very low,so any propaganda is good to promote their confidence that they could be indeed able to fight the insurgents by themselves without US forces nanying them though the course.

Yeah, I'm sure those six dead iraqi never happened. Also, those insurgents are pretty smart.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Seriously though,I understand why they are lying about their operations sometimes claiming victory in battles then never even happend.The average Iraqi soldier moral is very low,so any propaganda is good to promote their confidence that they could be indeed able to fight the insurgents by themselves without US forces nanying them though the course.

Yeah, I'm sure those six dead iraqi never happened. Also, those insurgents are pretty smart.

You are missing the point.It's not that the battle never took place as in other cases in the past,it's the fact that they are inflating insurgent's casualties and their ability to fight them which is understandable under current circumstances,but forming a picture of the on the ground situation based on this stories is misleading.

Fresh fighting in Fallujah

Quote[/b] ]FALLUJAH, Iraq - Clashes erupted Thursday between Iraqi forces and rebels in the former rebel citadel of Fallujah, while a friendly fire incident near the Syrian border between Iraqi police and army left five dead.

"There are clashes between the army and police and insurgents, but we don't have a toll yet," the defense ministry official said.

An AFP reporter said shots were heard from the city's northwestern Jolan district and Iraqi police sealed off the district around 1:30 pm (1030 GMT).

At the Jolan district's medical centre, hospital clerk Abbas Ahmed said four dead Iraqi soldiers were brought to the facility, but the defense ministry could not confirm the toll.

US forces assaulted the city in November, driving out insurgents who had turned it into their nerve centre for attacks across Iraq.

In a tragic friendly fire incident, Iraqi police and army opened fire on one another in Rabia, 130 kilometres (100 miles) northwest of Mosul, leaving three soldiers and two police dead, Major General Mohamed al-Jaburi told.

The incident happened at 11:00 am (0800 GMT) when the soldiers opened fire on police thinking they were rebels in the area rife with insurgent activity, Jaburi said.

Published: 3/24/2005

03/24/2005 15:10 GMT

This is the cherry on top of everything that prooves insurgents can't be anihiliated from a military perspective.If a city that suffered two sieges and is now leveled to the ground having the most strict security measures(ID cards,iris scan etc.) can't keep them from resurfacing odds are nothing else can.

I am growing more optimistic on the political front.It appears the new government is willing to compromise and welcome Sunnis to take part in the assembly,this might just be the only chance Iraq has for the situation to normalise and the violence that has plagued the country for years to finally cease.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]You are missing the point.It's not that the battle never took place as in other cases in the past,it's the fact that they are inflating insurgent's casualties and their ability to fight them which is understandable under current circumstances,but forming a picture of the on the ground situation based on this stories is misleading.

Do you think this insurgent guy would admit that number being high. Furthermore, I wouldn't think the insurgents would take their dead and wounded to a local hospital, eh.

[bn880 5]

So, we pretty much concluded that we cant really trust either side about this. With out true footage coming out (and with US killing some reporters, insurgents capturing others) it's kinda hard to judge isn't it.

Pardon, it's USA not US, I'll trust Bush on this one.

[ralphwiggum 6]

what kind of body armor is that soldier wearing? i haven't seen too many vests being used in Iraq that came w/ sleeves to protect the arms.

Interceptor, maybe?

[Wilco 944]

what kind of body armor is that soldier wearing? i haven't seen too many vests being used in Iraq that came w/ sleeves to protect the arms.

Interceptor, maybe?

Looks like it to me, those arm sleeves are added additions.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]You are missing the point.It's not that the battle never took place as in other cases in the past,it's the fact that they are inflating insurgent's casualties and their ability to fight them which is understandable under current circumstances,but forming a picture of the on the ground situation based on this stories is misleading.

Do you think this insurgent guy would admit that number being high. Furthermore, I wouldn't think the insurgents would take their dead and wounded to a local hospital, eh.

You still fail to understand,the base was overrun and captured by the Iraqi soldiers as per claim.Where else do you think the 80 bodies would have been taken at or are you suggesting that during the air strikes,intense gun fights,the retreating insurgents somehow had the time to carry the bodies of atleast one of their comrades with them  

Insurgents cling to training camp after Iraq-US assault

Quote[/b] ]Local hospitals told AFP they had received no casualties from the battle.

"The commandos killed 35 and US air raids killed 50. But no one was captured and many escaped by boat," General Adnan Thabet, a senior advisor to the interior ministry, earlier told AFP by phone from Samarra.

"During the fight, 30 boats left."

A statement from the outgoing government, which confirmed the insurgent toll, said one Algerian was captured.

The camp, frequented by members of Saddam's Baath party and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's branch of Al-Qaeda, was built after the US offensive to retake the rebel enclave of Fallujah in November, Thabet said.

Besides Fallujah, where rebels had turned the entire town into one giant command centre before November, the only other known strike on a suspected rebel camp was by US forces near Qaim on the Syrian border in June 2003.

"This was a serious military camp with a living section and guard posts," said a commando officer, named Jalil, who took part in the operation.

Jalil said machine guns, rockets, arms and training manuals including ones on how to make roadside bombs were found at the camp along with fake identification cards, passports and documents that proved the presence of foreigners, long blamed for the bulk of the insurgency.

He estimated that some 100 fighters might have been at the camp at the time of the attack.

They can't get the damn story straight between themselves.So there were 100 fighters present,80 were killed and 30 boats left with the remaining 20 insurgents 

[walker 0]

Hi All

This is the return of the vietnam body count syndrome.

Falacy No.1

We killed more of them this month so we are being more successful in stopping the insurgency.

Nope it just means there were more insurgents.

Falacy No.2

We engaged in some realy big battles this month so we are bringing them to battle on our own terms, yes we had higher losses, but our soldiers say they killed more of them so we are winning.

Nope it just means the insurgents are getting bolder and now they are so large and organised that they can set up training camps.

Falacy No.3

We are killing lots of them soon we will have killed most of them then they will give up.

Nope for everyone you kill you leave brothers, fathers, sons, sisters, mothers, cousins and friends  who same as you would do hate the persons who who killed their sibling or friend. That is what happened in vietnam. That big alien opressor in the suit of armour. Who drives around in big gas guzling cars and tanks while you have to queue for fuel. Bombed the crap out of your country etc.

Solution

Now if you were to capture lots of them now that would have an effect.

Family and friends have to come an see them in prison where you can tell them the sibling was lead along the wrong path.

All the ones you capture you can put on TV (they are insurgents not POWs) you can make a show of how you are treating them well but that they have to be tried and if found guilty go to prison for their crimes.

Put them in realy nice prisons with TV and nice food trust me on this. It stops being a war and becomes criminal activity far less sexy. Everyone starts getting angry that prisoners are living so well after all they are criminals. You just say that prisons have to be imroved same as the rest of society to get away from the old Sadam era. Also you are are trying to improve the rest of society but criminal gangs of insurgents keep blowing stuff up preventing you from making things better.

Pretty soon people will start turning insurgents in and the insurgent is far more likely to give up if the choice is between a cold grave and a nice warm prison cell with fresh sheets, TV, soccer games and family visits and maybe freedom at the end of it.

You have also gained vast intel assets because you can listen to the insurgent talking in prison and they will let stuff slip, everyone does. Familly will give up members to make sure they do not get killed, which gives you more intell assets to exploit.

More foot patrols, talk to the people. Put a soldier or policeman on every street corner. Stop wearing body armour and helmets all the time. Start rebuilding the country. Take control of the ground. Do it in a street by street way employ a local person as the policeman with a soldier. Build up relationships. Have some of the brighter officers pay rent to live in the community. Show them you are human beings too.

Not that I expect this to happen too many US soldiers still only get the US's Pravda-Foxnews and still believe the Iraqis were involved in 9/11 which by they were not just in case anyone still beleives that TBA fantasy.

Kind Regards Walker

[ralphwiggum 6]

Seems like there is an organized attempt to escape from the prison. The Great Iraqi Escape!

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/25/iraq.tunnel/index.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. troops believe they have thwarted a massive escape from one of the coalition's main prison camps in Iraq, Pentagon officials said Friday.

A 600-foot-long (183-meter) escape tunnel with an exit point outside the prison camp walls was discovered Thursday at Camp Bucca in southeastern Iraq.

The tunnel is believed to have been dug with improvised tools. Military authorities discovered it after a tip initiated a campwide search.

The tunnel is about 10 feet below ground and 2 to 3 feet wide.

Pentagon officials did not know how long the tunnel had been under construction.

Camp Bucca houses about 5,600 detainees.

That no one had used it to escape so far was verified by a head count of prisoners, which found all accounted for. But the tunnel appeared to be completed and ready to use, and officials speculate that detainees were waiting to use it when the weather turned poor and visibility on the ground was low.

The discovery of the tunnel also solved another mystery camp officials were trying to figure out.

Machinery that pumps sewage out of the prisoners' toilet system has been getting jammed with sand and dirt. Apparently, it was caused by soil that detainees have been disposing of while digging the tunnel.

[python3 0]

Doubts Surface on Iraq Raid Toll

apparently there was a battle, but not a sbig as the gov't would have its people believe. no bodies found when US soldiers arrive. even the spokesman retracted statements and said it wasnt a major incident.

[miles teg 1]

Walker... Foot Patrols= easier targets for IED attacks with higher body counts.   Also a soldier on every corner would be nice...if you had like 500,000 soldiers to actually do that.

But with the current # of soldiers, it would leave individual soldiers vulnerable to kidnapping and later torture and beheading on TV all over the Middle East and on the internet.

And no body armor? Yeah right.  You tell a soldier that and he'd laugh at you.  Even police here in the US wear body armor.  But when faced with enemies armed with assault rifles soldiers in Iraq have to wear the big bulky Level IV body armor with ceramic plates.  

If things relaxed a bit, then maybe, but even then I would never encourage them to remove their body armor and helmets.  The only ones that don't wear body armor are Iraq units that are either under-funded to get body armor or they believe that Allah is their body armor and that death will take them regardless of whether they wear body armor or not.

This is one reason why militants only rarely wear body armor.  Those that do wear body armor are seen as being "weak in their faith".  

At any rate it would be insane for a US soldier to walk around without body armor. Militants are not going to say, "Oh look he walks without body armor...he's a man of peace or a man of faith... lets not hurt him." Thats a very niave perception.

If that tactic worked, then US soldiers should just go around unarmed with no weapons at all and say, We're here in peace! Don't shoot! Don't shoot!

Some nice Iraqis have tried that stunt and militants usually responded by blowing them up or capturing them and beheading them if their families didn't pay up a randsom.

Oh about the arm shields... the ones in the picture are actually fairly light. Some of the newer ones have ceramic inserts and are very big. The main place I've seen them is on the roof gunners on humvees and other vehicles with roof mounted MG's.

Personally I think a better option is just putting armored panels around the gunner turrets (which some humvees have but very few). The reason for that might be because the extra weight makes it slower and harder to turn the turret which isn't electrically powered on most humvees.

As for body count figures... yeah I never trust those and I agree with others that generally they don't mean much.  

Counter-Insurgency Warfare is NOT a football game.  Here in America its like people are keeping score...but damn it..the opposing team just keeps coming and coming and doesn't know when they're beat.  So Americans scratch their heads and wonder, "These militants must be crazy! We should just nuke the Middle East and make it into a big glass parking lot!"

It actually is a logical conclusion when the media just keeps showing all these suicide attacks.  Americans then just assume that "Gee... these A-Rabs must not value life very much.  So since they don't mind dying and they also want to kill us, lets just hurry the process up and wipe 'em all out so they can all get their wish of martyrdom in their religion...of coarse we Christians know they'll be burning in hell..but hey...that just means more room in heaven for us."

So you see...it all makes perfect sense in the mind of your average uneducated American who has never known any Arab or Muslim people.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Ironsight 1]

Quote[/b] ]AFTER ACTION REPORT: Raven 42 action in Salman Pak

Over the next few days you will see on the television news shows, and in the print news media the story of a Military Police Squad who are heroes. Through those outlets, I doubt that their story will get out in a truly descriptive manner. I can't express to you the pride, awe, and respect I feel for the soldiers of call sign Raven 42.

On Sunday afternoon, in a very bad section of scrub-land called Salman Pak, on the southeastern outskirts of Baghdad, 40 to 50 heavily-armed Iraqi insurgents attacked a convoy of 30 civilian tractor trailer trucks that were moving supplies for the coalition forces, along an Alternate Supply Route. These tractor trailers, driven by third country nationals (primarily Turkish), were escorted by 3 armored Hummers from the COSCOM*. When the insurgents attacked, one of the Hummers was in their kill zone and the three soldiers aboard were immediately wounded, and the platform taken under heavy machinegun and RPG** fire.

Along with them, three of the truck drivers were killed, 6 were wounded in the tractor trailer trucks. The enemy attacked from a farmer's barren field next to the road, with a tree line perpendicular to the ASR***, two dry irrigation ditches forming a rough L-shaped trenchline, and a house standing off the dirt road. After three minutes of sustained fire, a squad o f enemy moved forward toward the disabled and suppressed trucks. Each of the enemy had hand-cuffs and were looking to take hostages for ransom or worse, to take those three wounded US soldiers for more internet beheadings.

About this time, three armored Hummers that formed the MP Squad under call sign Raven 42, 617th MP Co, Kentucky National Guard, assigned to the 503rd MP Bn (Fort Bragg), 18th MP Bde, arrived on the scene like the cavalry. The squad had been shadowing the convoy from a distance behind the last vehicle, and when the convoy trucks stopped and became backed up from the initial attack, the squad sped up, paralleled the convoy up the shoulder of the road, and moved to the sound of gunfire.

They arrived on the scene just as a squad of about ten enemy had moved forward across the farmer's field and were about 20 meters from the road. The MP squad opened fire with .50 cal machineguns and Mk19 grenade launchers and drove across the front of the enemy's kill zone, between the enemy and the trucks, drawing fire off of the tractor trailers.

The MP's crossed the kill zone and then turned up an access road at a right angle to the ASR and next to the field full of enemy fighters. The three vehicles, carrying nine MPs and one medic, stopped in a line on the dirt access road and flanked the enemy positions with plunging fire from the .50 cal and the SAW machinegun (Squad Automatic Weapon). In front of them, was a line of seven sedans, with all their doors and trunk lids open, the getaway cars and the lone two story house off on their left.

Immediately the middle vehicle was hit by an RPG knocking the gunner unconscious from his turret and down into the vehicle. The Vehicle Commander (the TC*****), the squad's leader, thought the gunner was dead, but tried to treat him from inside the vehicle. Simultaneously, the rear vehicle's driver and TC, section leader two, open their doors and dismount to fight, while their gunner continued firing from his position in the gun platform on top of the Hummer. Immediately, all three fall under heavy return machinegun fire, wounded. The driver of the middle vehicle saw them fall out the rearview mirror, dismounts and sprints to get into the third vehicle and take up the SAW on top the vehicle. The Squad's medic dismounts from that third vehicle, and joined by the first vehicle's driver (CLS trained****) who sprinted back to join him, begins combat life-saving techniques to treat the three wounded MPs. The gunner on the floor of the second

vehicle is revived by his TC, the squad leader, and he climbs back into the .50 cal and opens fire. The Squad leader dismounted with his M4 carbine, and 2 hand grenades, grabbed the section leader out of the first vehicle who had rendered radio reports of their first contact. The two of them, squad leader Staff Sergeant and team leader Sergeant with her M4 and M203 grenade launcher, rush the nearest ditch about 20 meters away to start clearing the natural trenchline. The enemy has gone into the ditches and is hiding behind several small trees in the back of the lot. The .50 cal and SAW flanking fire tears apart the ten enemy in the lead trenchline.

Meanwhile, the two treating the three wounded on the ground at the rear vehicle come under sniper fire from the farmer's house. Each of them, remember one is a medic, pull out AT-4 rocket launchers from the HMMWV and nearly-simultaneously fire the rockets into the house to neutralize the shooter. The two sergeants work their way up the trenchline, throwing grenades, firing grenades from the launcher, and firing their M4s.

The sergeant runs low on ammo and runs back to a vehicle to reload. She moves to her squad leader's vehicle, and because this squad is led so well, she knows exactly where to reach her arm blindly into a different vehicle to find ammo-because each vehicle is packed exactly the same, with discipline.

As she turns to move back to the trenchline, Gunner in two sees an AIF***** jump from behind one of the cars and start firing on the Sergeant. He pulls his 9mm, because the .50 cal is pointed in the other direction, and shoots five rounds wounding him.****** The sergeant moves back to the trenchline under fire from the back of the field, with fresh mags, two more grenades, and three more M203 rounds. The Mk 19 gunner suppresses the rear of the field.

Now, rejoined with the squad leader, the two sergeants continue clearing the enemy from the trenchline, until they see no more movement. A lone man with an RPG launcher on his shoulder steps from behind a tree and prepares to fire on the three Hummers and is killed with a single aimed SAW shot thru the head by the previously knocked out gunner on platform two, who now has a SAW out to supplement the .50 cal in the mount.

The team leader sergeant--she claims four killed by aimed M4 shots.

The Squad Leader--he threw four grenades taking out at least two AIF, and attributes one other to her aimed M203 fire.

The gunner on platform two, previously knocked out from a hit by the RPG, has now swung his .50 cal around and, realizing that the line of vehicles represents a hazard and possible getaway for the bad guys, starts shooting the .50cal into the engine blocks until his field of fire is limited. He realizes that his vehicle is still running despite the RPG hit, and drops down from his weapon, into the drivers seat and moves the vehicle forward on two flat tires about 100 meters into a better firing position. Just then, the vehicle dies, oil spraying everywhere. He remounts his .50 cal and continues shooting the remaining of the seven cars lined up and ready for a get-away that wasn't to happen. The fire dies down about then, and a second squad arrives on the scene, dismounts and helps the two giving first aid to the wounded at platform three. Two minutes later three other squads from the 617th arrive, along with the CO, and the field is secured, consolidation begins.

Those seven Americans (with the three wounded) killed in total 24 heavily armed enemy, wounded 6 (two later died), and captured one unwounded, who feigned injury to escape the fight. They seized 22 AK-47s, 6x RPG launchers w/ 16 rockets, 13x RPK machineguns, 3x PKM machineguns, 40 hand grenades, 123 fully loaded 30-rd AK magazines, 52 empty mags, and 10 belts of 2500 rds of PK ammo.

The three wounded MPs have been evacuated to Landstuhl. One lost a kidney and will be paralyzed. The other two will most likely recover, though one will forever have a bullet lodged between second and third ribs below his heart. No word on the three COSCOM soldiers wounded in the initial volleys. Of the 7 members of Raven 42 who walked away, two are Caucasian Women, the rest men-one is Mexican-American, the medic is African-American, and the other two are Caucasian-the great American melting pot.

They believed even before this fight that their NCOs were the best in the Army, and that they have the best squad in the Army. The Medic who fired the AT-4, said he remembered how from the week before when his squad leader forced him to train on it, though he didn't think as a medic he would ever use one. He said he chose to use it in that moment to protect the three wounded on the ground in front of him, once they came under fire from the building. The day before this mission, they took the new RFI bandoliers that were recently issued, and experimented with mounting them in their vehicles. Once they figured out how, they pre-loaded a second basic load of ammo into magazines, put them into the bandoliers, and mounted them in their vehicles---the same exact way in every vehicle-load plans enforced and checked by leaders!

Leadership under fire-once those three leaders (NCOs) stepped out of their vehicles, the squad was committed to the fight.

Their only complaints in the AAR were: the lack of stopping power in the 9mm; the .50 cal incendiary rounds they are issued in lieu of ball ammo (shortage of ball in the inventory) didn't have the penetrating power needed to pierce the walls of the building; and that everyone in the squad was not CLS trained.

Yesterday, Monday, was spent with the chaplain and the chain of command conducting AARs. Today, every news media in theater wanted them. Good Morning America, NBC, CBS, FOX, ABC, Stars and Stripes, and many radio stations from Kentucky all were lined up today. The female E5 Sergeant who fought thru the trenchline will become the anti-Jessica Lynch media poster child. She and her squad leader deserve every bit of recognition they will get, and more. They all do.

I participated in their AAR as the BDE S2, and am helping in putting together an action report to justify future valor awards. Lets not talk about women in combat. Lets not talk about the new Close Combat Badge not including MPs.

Acronyms/Commets

COSCOM* : Corps Support Command-The echelon that provides supply, Military Police, Medical, and other support to deployed combat Divisions and other tactical units.

RPG** Rocket Propelled Grenades-Cheap, accurate, devastating weapons. I wish we had them.developed by the Soviets.they are everywhere!

ASR*** Alternate Supply Route. This convoy was obviously on a mission off the MSR (Main Supply Route).

CLS trained**** Combat Life Saving Trained. This is a remarkable addition to the basic medical training we used to receive. It is saving lives on the battlefield as it supplements and enhances the skills the Company Medics have.

*****AIF: Anti-Iraq Forces

******The 9mm round was a terrible decision for the Army to make. The 9mm Pistol replaced the .45 caliber Pistol just as I was leaving the Army. Believe me, one round from a .45 would have done more than wound the enemy soldier. Special Forces, Seals, Rangers, etc, and all those who engage in CQB (Close Quarters Battle) are being issued or buying their own .45s. There is an old addage: "Never go to a gun fight with a handgun that uses ammo that doesn't start with a "4".

Amazing and almost unbelievable story

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]

Marines survive frightful explosion in Iraq

NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq - A few Marines from Dragon Platoon survived an improvised explosive device while moving an abandoned vehicle from an important main supply route from Fallujah to Baghdad.

After finding the suspicious vehicle, the Marines eventually used an armored Humvee to push the car off the side of the road.

As Marines were securing the area, the vehicle suddenly exploded while a CNN crew was videotaping.

The Marines believe it was detonated remotely by an insurgent triggerman who was watching and waiting for the right moment to injure or kill as many U.S. troops as possible.

In this case, nobody was seriously hurt.

The blast blew CNN Cameraman David Allbritton back 12 feet.

CNN Reporter Alex Quade said, "I saw he (Allbritton) was okay and I picked up my mini-cam to help record what was happening in front of us."

Immediately after the explosion the Marines climbed into the flaming Humvee to get ammunition out because the ammo could blow and cause other casualties.

One of the lucky Marines, Lance Corporal Jason Hunt, told CNN that he thought he was going to die when the car exploded, then he immediately walked away from Quade to begin securing they area.

The explosion did not deter the Marines from their security duty; they were all out on patrol hunting for improvised explosive devices the next day.

Video of the explosion (No Gore)

Thank god for uparmored Humvees.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]AFTER ACTION REPORT: Raven 42 action in Salman Pak

Over the next few days you will see on the television news shows, and in the print news media the story of a Military Police Squad who are heroes. Through those outlets, I doubt that their story will get out in a truly descriptive manner. I can't express to you the pride, awe, and respect I feel for the soldiers of call sign Raven 42.<snipped>

Amazing and almost unbelievable story

http://www.dvidshub.net/video/jump.php?2099

Here's the video.

NO GORE IN THIS VIDEO Infact, hardly anything, the cameraman is horrible.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/29/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The Iraqi National Assembly failed to choose a speaker Tuesday after arguments broke out among lawmakers and reporters were ordered to leave the session.

Assembly members expressed outrage that no agreement had been reached after two sessions.

"The Iraqi people who defied the security threats and voted -- what shall we tell them? What is the reason for this delay?" politician Hussein al-Sadr told Reuters. Al-Sadr is a member of the coalition led by interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi.

Eventually, the assembly's acting speaker ordered reporters out of the session and cut off a video feed from the proceedings. Members then huddled in a closed-door meeting.

A Western diplomat watching the session called the decision to cut the video feed "an embarrassment."

Mowaffaq al-Rubaie, the interim national security adviser, said he expected the 275-member transitional body to reconvene Sunday and pick a Sunni Arab for speaker before proceeding to choose a president and confirm a prime minister and Cabinet.

Al-Rubaie said the Sunnis have a chance to put forth a consensus candidate before then. If they don't, the assembly will go forward and vote for one of the 17 Sunnis in the assembly.

Hashim al-Hasani, the interim industry and minerals minister and a Sunni, said Sunnis plan to meet over the next few days to decide on a candidate.

The assembly has failed to form a new government since the January 30 election of its members. Naming a speaker was to be the first step forward.

Millions of Iraqi voters risked attacks by insurgents to vote in the election.

Taxi driver Mohammed Ahmed Ali told Reuters: "It is a farce. If they couldn't form a government till now, how will they lead a country?"

On Monday, acrimony heightened when interim President Ghazi al-Yawar, a Sunni Arab Muslim, declined an invitation to the speaker post by members of the United Iraqi Alliance and Kurdish bloc, which placed first and second, respectively, in the January vote.

Officials from these coalitions had expressed a desire to have a Sunni Arab as speaker, who serves as assembly president, to broaden the Sunnis' participation in the new government.

Most Sunnis, who held power under Saddam Hussein, stayed away from polling places in January. Much of the insurgency is taking place in the so-called Sunni Triangle, west of Baghdad.

Assembly sources said that 80 percent to 90 percent of positions for a new government already have been negotiated, with a few key security posts up for grabs.

hmmm....i wonder if they will act like Taiwanese parliament...

Through those outlets, I doubt that their story will get out in a truly descriptive manner.

He pulls his 9mm, because the .50 cal is pointed in the other direction, and shoots five rounds wounding him

The female E5 Sergeant who fought thru the trenchline will become the anti-Jessica Lynch media poster child.

The 9mm round was a terrible decision for the Army to make. The 9mm Pistol replaced the .45 caliber Pistol just as I was leaving the Army. Believe me, one round from a .45 would have done more than wound the enemy soldier. Special Forces, Seals, Rangers, etc, and all those who engage in CQB (Close Quarters Battle) are being issued or buying their own .45s. There is an old addage: "Never go to a gun fight with a handgun that uses ammo that doesn't start with a "4".

I don't know the truth about description of what happened, but I certianly would not put much faith in this person(the article author) to do a reporting. He complains about how media is not going to tell the story straight and embeds that idea in his lines.

on top of that he complains about 9mm not having stopping power. and from my experience, those people tend to be somewhat of misinformed type.