The Iraq thread 4

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]"I can see why he would do it. He was probably running around being shot at for days on end in Falluja. There should be an investigation but they should look into the circumstances," said Lance Corporal Christopher Hanson.

"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."

Oh poor little kid running around in Falluja while those brutal iraqi terrorists shoot after him all day. Of course he's somewhat stressed by all those evil dark skinned men "who cannot be trusted - who lives in the town of satan and are so busy firing at him when they're not  chopping heads off on the telly. I really feel for him little kiddie soldier who gets so stressed that he is almost obliged to kill the unarmed wounded man lying on the floor. And we would all do it, right? No matter what, right? Even if they clearly had control over the situation, right?

I hope he will burn in hell for a cowardly murder like that- but at least he'll be sentenced to jail for war crimes. There's no fucking excuse for what he did! He's a soldier and should act like on - instead he acted like a cold blooded murderer!

Something tells me your soldiers are facing far worse things than Falluja to come in the future. You are clearly not winning the hearts and minds of the iraqi population and Allawi is not Mr. Populare this or the next year. Iraq will never be stabilized as long as your lads are supposed to secure the coming elections - never mind authorize the canditates.

The marine can claim self-defense because of previous experience and that type of crap. I did not see him run to shoot the others...

BTW, love the "hidden" racism!

[shinRaiden 0]

AP Wire

Quote[/b] ]

Margaret Hassan, the British aid worker kidnapped after decades of helping Iraqis, is believed to have been murdered by her captors, a British government official said Tuesday, based on a video that showed a hooded militant shooting a blindfolded woman in the head.

No other female hostage is known to have been killed in the wave of kidnappings that have beset Iraq.

More than 170 foreigners have been abducted this year, and at least 34 killed. One woman - a Polish-Iraqi citizen - remains captive.

Hassan's family in London said the longtime director of CARE in Iraq was likely the victim, and British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said analysis of the video received by Al-Jazeera television showed Hassan has "probably been murdered, although we cannot conclude this with complete certainty."

CARE said it was in mourning for the 59-year-old Briton, a veteran humanitarian worker known around the Mideast for her concern for Iraqis - particularly during the years of U.N. sanctions, whose effects on children she vocally denounced.

"To kidnap and kill anyone is inexcusable," Straw said. "But it is repugnant to commit such a crime against a woman who has spent most of her life working for the good of the people of Iraq."

In an emotional appeal on Al-Jazeera, Hassan's Iraqi husband, Tahseen Ali Hassan, said he had heard of the video but did not know whether it was authentic.

"I appeal to those who took my wife (to tell me) what they did with her. ... I want my wife, dead or alive. If she is dead, please let me know of her whereabouts so I can bury her in peace," he said, his voice choked with tears.

The video shows a hooded militant firing a pistol into the head of a blindfolded woman wearing an orange jumpsuit, said Al-Jazeera spokesman Jihad Ballout. The station received the tape a few days ago but had not been sure of its authenticity until recently, he said.

"We invited British diplomatic officials to come and view it," he told The Associated Press. "It's now likely that the image depicts Mrs. Hassan."

Ballout said the station would not air the video and would not broadcast any acts of killing, outside war. Al-Jazeera has been under pressure not to show videos of kidnapped foreigners.

Hassan was abducted in Baghdad on Oct. 19 on her way to work, the most prominent of more than 170 foreigners kidnapped in Iraq this year. Her captors issued a series of videos showing her weeping and pleading for Britons to act to save her. In one video, she fainted and a bucket of water was thrown on her to revive her.

In one video, she begged British Prime Minister Tony Blair to withdraw troops from Iraq and calling for the release of female Iraqi prisoners.

On Sunday, U.S. Marines found the mutilated body of what they believe was a Western woman on a street in a Fallujah during the U.S. assault on the insurgent stronghold. The U.S. command said the body had not been identified as of Tuesday night.

Besides Hassan, the only Western woman known to be held was Teresa Borcz Khalifa, 54, a Polish-born longtime resident of Iraq seized last month.

A Blair spokesman said the prime minister "sends his sympathy to the family of Margaret Hassan and shares their abhorrence at the cruel treatment of someone who devoted so many years of their life to helping the people of Iraq."

CARE said it was "with profound sadness" that it learned of the video. "The whole of CARE is in mourning," said the group, which closed its Iraq operations after the kidnapping.

Hassan's four brothers and sisters also said they believe she is dead, although their statement did not mention the video.

"Our hearts are broken," they said in a statement released by the British Foreign Office. "We have kept hoping for as long as we could, but we now have to accept that Margaret has probably gone and at last her suffering has ended."

The family said, "Those who are guilty of this atrocious act, and those who support them, have no excuses."

Al-Jazeera reported on Nov. 2 that Hassan's captors threatened to turn her over to followers of Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

Three days later, al-Zarqawi's al-Qaida in Iraq group called for Hassan's release and promised to free her if she fell into their hands, according to a message posted on a Web site known for publishing messages from Islamic militant groups.

Al-Zarqawi and his men have been blamed for numerous deadly car bombings and the slayings of foreign hostages, including three Americans and a Briton.

Born in Ireland, Hassan also held British and Iraqi citizenship. She met her husband at the university and moved with him to Baghdad. Friends said she converted to Islam. Before the war, Hassan mostly worked on projects to provide clean water and improve education, said Carel de Rooy, a UNICEF representative who once worked with her there. Hassan was an outspoken opponent of the U.S.-led invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein.

BBC

Quote[/b] ]

A video apparently showing the murder of aid worker Margaret Hassan seems to be genuine, says the Foreign Office.

"We now believe that she has probably been murdered", Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said after analysing the tape.

Her Iraqi husband, Tahseen Ali Hassan, has made a plea for her body to be returned to him "to rest in peace".

Mrs Hassan, who has Irish, British and Iraqi nationality, was seized by an unknown group in the Iraqi capital on 19 October.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair sent his sympathy to Mrs Hassan's family, saying he "shared their abhorrence" at her treatment.

And Bertie Ahern, the Irish Republic's Prime Minister, said her kidnappers "stand condemned by everyone throughout the entire international community".

Arabic TV news channel Al Jazeera has said it has had a copy of the videotape for several days but has chosen not to broadcast it.

The video apparently shows a militant firing a pistol into the head of a blindfolded woman wearing an orange jumpsuit.

A spokesman for Al Jazeera said he presumed the woman was Mrs Hassan.

Mr Hassan has appealed to the kidnappers to return his wife's body.

"I beg those people who took Margaret to tell me what they have done with her," he said.

"They can tell me. They can call the helpline. I need her. I need her back to rest in peace."

Mrs Hassan's brother and sisters, Michael, Deirdre, Kathryn and Geraldine Fitzsimons, said in a statement that their "hearts are broken".

They said: "We have kept hoping for as long as we could, but we now have to accept that Margaret has probably gone and at last her suffering has ended.

"She had no prejudice against any creed. She dedicated her whole life to working for the poor and vulnerable, helping those who had no-one else."

They described her murder as "unforgivable", adding: "The gap she leaves will never be filled."

Felicity Arbuthnot, a freelance journalist who was a close friend of Mrs Hassan, said she was both sad and angry at the aid worker's apparent death.

"It is an horrific irony that someone who had fought for this country should die in this way," she said.

While the kidnapping was condemned by governments, the aid worker's colleagues and family repeatedly pleaded for her release.

Mrs Hassan, who had lived in Iraq for 30 years, was filmed by her captors asking Tony Blair to pull British troops out of Iraq.

But two weeks ago a message claiming to be from a group led by extreme militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi called for her release.

Al-Zarqawi's group, which claimed responsibility for murdering Briton Ken Bigley, said her kidnappers did not understand Islam.

"In true Islam, they don't kill women and young children. We only kill those who fight us and kill our people," the message said.

The message was signed "al-Qaeda in Iraq".

Mrs Hassan, 59, was driving to work as director of Care International's Iraq operations when she was seized. The agency has since halted work in the country.

If her death is confirmed, she will be the first foreign female hostage to have been murdered in Iraq amid a recent wave of hostage-takings.

Family statement:

Quote[/b] ]

Michael, Deirdre, Geraldine and Kathryn Fitzsimons, the brother and sisters of Margaret Hassan, issued a statement through the Foreign and Commonwealth Office press office.

Our hearts are broken. We have kept hoping for as long as we could, but we now have to accept that Margaret has probably gone and at last her suffering has ended.

Our prayers and thoughts are with our dear brother-in-law Tahseen. Margaret was a friend of the Arab world, to people of all religions. Her love of the Arab people started in the 1960s when she worked in Palestinian camps, living with the poorest of the poor and supporting the refugees.

For the past 30 years, Margaret worked tirelessly for the Iraqi people. Margaret had only goodwill towards everyone. She had no prejudice against any creed. She dedicated her whole life to working for the poor and vulnerable, helping those who had no one else.

Those who are guilty of this atrocious act, and those who support them, have no excuses. Nobody can justify this. Margaret was against sanctions and the war. To commit such a crime against anyone is unforgivable.

But we cannot believe how anybody could do this to our kind, compassionate sister.

The gap she leaves will never be filled.

[brgnorway 0]

   

 

Quote[/b] ]A bit harsh, don't you think?  

Not at all! Allthough I have to admit I haven't witnessed or seen many murders before I'd still say my reaction was propriate.

Quote[/b] ]

All we know is what was shown on the videotape, nothing more.

As if that wasn't enough? They were clearly in control, they were the second unit to arrive at the scene, they suggested that the persons lying on the floor had been left the day before?

Quote[/b] ]You also have to account for the fact that this Marine was wounded in the face the day prior--he shouldn't have even been back on the frontlines so soon.

Oh that's a nice one! Don't tell me the superiors are to blame for neglecting him the right to care for his wounds! So, what if his superiors thought he was fit enough for combat because his wounds were only superficial?

My point is that there's no excuse for what he did! As a soldier you have rules to follow. And if you don't you run the risk of becoming a war criminal.

Quote[/b] ]I'm sure he was on edge and, having seen his friends killed in a similar situation in which a wounded man rolled a grenade out, then his response was somewhat to be expected.

Murder is hardly to be expected. He's a soldier and should expect to die any time. The reason for having the Geneva Convention is not only for your own protection when you are wounded or taken prisoner, but also to protect people you might harm unlawfully.

As hard as it might be you are not allowed to act differently - not even when the opposition acts with methods not approven of. Also do keep in mind that the resistance are not regulare units in any way and cannot be accountable for what they do in any other ways than criminal law.

This does however not releive you of the burden of acting in accordance with international law.

Quote[/b] ]Since you're so quick to lash out at us, then feel free to step in and take care of the situation yourself.

No, be my guest of keeping up the bad work! Your nation dragged you into this, so the responsability is solely yours.

Everyone else warned your leaders not to invade Iraq but they still had to have a go at it. So you do it - and do it better!

Quote[/b] ]It's much easier to sit back and criticize someone's actions from home while sitting in a chair.  Who knows--had you been in that young Marine's position, you might have done the same thing.

Yes, you are correct. It is easier!

Point is that most people will fortunately not experience something as traumatic as war and thank God for that. Luckily we have soldiers to do the dirty business for us. But that doesn't exclude us from having an opinion. Therefore it is not only our right to say what we mean - but also our duty to do so when our/your soldiers behave like they do! Who knows, maybe you or I could be the next victim?

Mind you, if Norway is dragged into a war I will have to fight myself as I'm in the reserves, and allthough I can't give you any guarantee that I'll behave as I'm supposed to I still think I'll follow the rules and regulations of war as best I can. I honestly can't say I would act as the soldier in the video did!

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]The marine can claim self-defense because of previous experience and that type of crap. I did not see him run to shoot the others...

The marine can claim whatever he wants, but self defence because of previous experience is utter crap .

Or is this a version of "you have to support our troops" - no matter what?

Quote[/b] ]BTW, love the "hidden" racism!

Glad you noticed, I put it there on purpose! You know why of course: "You can't trust these people" .

[NavyEEL 0]

Mind you, if Norway is dragged into a war I will have to fight myself as I'm in the reserves, and allthough I can't give you any guarantee that I'll behave as I'm supposed to I still think I'll follow the rules and regulations of war as best I can. I honestly can't say I would act as the soldier in the video did!

You talk as if we are just a bunch of uneducated, undisciplined killers... if you knew the US military at all, you would know this is far from the truth. Think rationally about the situation: a marine is recorded on video killing a wounded insurgent. Now this embedded reporter has surely been following the squad for probably a couple days. I can guarantee that the squad is aware that there is a reporter with a video camera following them, and I'm also positive that they have been briefed on proper ROE prior to being deployed.

Do you honestly think that this Marine would put himself, his squad, and the US military's reputation in jeopardy when he knows that his every move is being recorded on video? It wasn't cold-blooded murder. Either this Marine knew something we didn't, or he suffered psychological damage from being wounded and acted out of haste, in which case responsibility falls on his platoon leader for putting him back on the front lines way too soon. Look at WWII, Vietnam, or veterans from any war who have flashbacks. Does that make them bad people? No. But it probably means they shouldn't be handling a live weapon until they can cope with their problems.

Either way, we aren't a military full of dirtbags who just do whatever they want as you like to suggest--please give us a bit more credit than that. And please try to use common sense in situations like these instead of just pointing the finger at the horrible Americans. I hate seeing situations like these just as much as everyone else, but we all know how manipulative the media can be and we need to remain cogniscant of that.

[shinRaiden 0]

Video? The visual portion was clipped prior to when the american starts yelling. Theres a lot of rumors and such flying around, and the soldier was pulled off-line pending an investigation. I would like to think that the supporters here of arm-chair quarterbacking and retroactive intelligence would support waiting until the investigation is complete before making pre-emptive judgements.

The anti-american bias that it is conducted in precludes that justice however. Verdicts are supposed to be based on evidence investigated, not evidence cooked to match the presupposed verdicts, as you repeatedly stress.

[bn880 5]

But shit, this is just the tip of the iceberg, and in comparison to what really goes down, it's ultra mild. Today again fal. was bombed... so yeah.

[brgnorway 0]

 

Quote[/b] ]You talk as if we are just a bunch of uneducated, undisciplined killers...

I never said your soldiers are uneducated, but since you are mentioning it I'd say it is likely that your soldiers are not very well taught about international law - or that it isn't respected the way it should be. There are numerous example of this and it's a disgrace!

Quote[/b] ]Think rationally about the situation: a marine is recorded on video killing a wounded insurgent.  Now this embedded reporter has surely been following the squad for probably a couple days.  I can guarantee that the squad is aware that there is a reporter with a video camera following them, and I'm also positive that they have been briefed on proper ROE prior to being deployed.

I cannot explain why it happend and he is to be considered innocent untill proven guilty.

Quote[/b] ]Either way, we aren't a military full of dirtbags who just do whatever they want as you like to suggest--please give us a bit more credit than that.

Credit is something you earn - and this war leaves you lacking of just that!

Quote[/b] ]And please try to use common sense in situations like these instead of just pointing the finger at the horrible Americans.

That's not nice to say! I have nothing against americans at all. I personally know quite a few and I appreciate our friendship.

[Llauma 0]

A bit harsh, don't you think?  All we know is what was shown on the videotape, nothing more.  You also have to account for the fact that this Marine was wounded in the face the day prior--he shouldn't have even been back on the frontlines so soon.  I'm sure he was on edge and, having seen his friends killed in a similar situation in which a wounded man rolled a grenade out, then his response was somewhat to be expected.

Since you're so quick to lash out at us, then feel free to step in and take care of the situation yourself.  It's much easier to sit back and criticize someone's actions from home while sitting in a chair.  Who knows--had you been in that young Marine's position, you might have done the same thing.

Then the marine and those who put him back in duty when he was uncapable of handling the job should burn in hell.

If I would ever do such a thing I wouldn't be able to live with it. I would definitly not try to come up with some excuses why it happened. It was cold blooded murder, you can't deny that. Sure, he isn't the first one to do that but I feel just the same about the others. I can't understand how anyone can defend a thing like that.

If I had to pick a side in this conflict I wouldn't be carrying a M4. These people are fighting for the freedom of their country against a massive invasion army far better equipped than them. The choise isn't hard to make. American bombs makes the terrorists appear as amateurs when it comes to killing innocent civilans.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do you honestly think that this Marine would put himself, his squad, and the US military's reputation in jeopardy when he knows that his every move is being recorded on video?  It wasn't cold-blooded murder.

Yet it's strange that some people defending the Marine's actions on the video are highlighting the stress and fatigue he must have gone through, the light wounding in the face, losing buddies to explain his shooting while claiming that he was reasonable and considerate enough in those circumnstances to take Marine Corps reputation and video photographer into account?   They're mostly young guys early 20s put in a combat situation, they get nervous, confused and scared. Nothing new in that. But that does not take away responsibility.

I don't claim I would be more civil and disciplined in similiar circumnstances and not necessarily representatives of any other army would be either. But based on the footage seen that is in deed an execution-style killing and it's probably pretty hard to mask that with events which took place before that. Let's see what the investigation comes up with.

[shinRaiden 0]

You weren't there, you don't know.

I wasn't there, I don't know.

The last time we had such a large adventure in arm-chair quarterbacking was in Vietnam, where an entire embittered generation was blacklisted for 30 years with thousands of casulties. Plus the whole civilian population of southeast Asia was left to burn in hell, because the rest of the world figured Cronkite knew more about the situation than the boots on the ground. There were plenty that had their day in the sun, Pol Pot and Ho Chi Minh died peacefully in old age, content in knowing that the west cared more about polls than liberty.

In the 'gentlemanly' wars in America and Europe in previous centuries, mutual truces were honored so that each side could remove the wounded from the battlefield. There was a clear distinction between civilian and combatant. In the world today, especially in the world of Fallujah and Kabul, things don't work that way.

You haven't had a personal Concord Bridge since the Teutonberg Forest, the history of our warfare has been nearly all guerrilla style, even when fought on open plains.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Plus the whole civilian population of southeast Asia was left to burn in hell, because the rest of the world figured Cronkite knew more about the situation than the boots on the ground. There were plenty that had their day in the sun, Pol Pot and Ho Chi Minh died peacefully in old age, content in knowing that the west cared more about polls than liberty.

So the people of South-Vietnam were 'burned in hell' after 1975? And by the way, did you even know that it was communist Vietnam that drove Pol Pot to the jungle in 1979 ending the massacer in Cambodia while everyone else stood by, except China who attacked Vietnam to support it's friend Pol Pot?

Nice that you always bring Vietnam around. But I'm affraid we are talking about a video and the conclusions people draw from it.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]You weren't there, you don't know.

I wasn't there, I don't know.

Now that makes sense! Next time we see something like this on the telly we'll better close our eyes and say "never saw it, wasn't there, probably didn't happen!

Quote[/b] ]The last time we had such a large adventure in arm-chair quarterbacking was in Vietnam, where an entire embittered generation was blacklisted for 30 years with thousands of casulties. Plus the whole civilian population of southeast Asia was left to burn in hell, because the rest of the world figured Cronkite knew more about the situation than the boots on the ground. There were plenty that had their day in the sun, Pol Pot and Ho Chi Minh died peacefully in old age, content in knowing that the west cared more about polls than liberty.

Yes, you know all us commie bastards around the world also feel sorry for the todays newborn babies in Vietnam that are still born with the marks of Agent Orange.

Quote[/b] ]In the 'gentlemanly' wars in America and Europe in previous centuries, mutual truces were honored so that each side could remove the wounded from the battlefield. There was a clear distinction between civilian and combatant. In the world today, especially in the world of Fallujah and Kabul, things don't work that way.

I can't remember the british regiments killing prisoners of war in the Falklands - can you?

[turms 0]

The US military has charged an army officer with the killing of an injured Iraqi in Baghdad in August.

Quote[/b] ]The move comes as the Americans began investigating the fatal shooting by a US marine of an injured insurgent in the city of Falluja on Saturday.

The officer, 2nd Lieutenant Erick Anderson, has been charged with premeditated murder and conspiracy to commit premeditated murder.

He was charged with the killing of an injured Iraqi in August in the volatile Sadr City slum area of the Iraqi capital, Baghdad.

Sensitive cases

A similar incident was captured in Falluja on camera by an embedded American television journalist working for US network NBC over the weekend.

Pentagon officials insist they are taking that matter very seriously, while also arguing that it would be wrong to rush to judgement on the case before all the facts have been collected.

Clearly these are hugely sensitive cases, but some Pentagon officials argue that it is a measure of how seriously they take such matters generally that there have been a number of probes into alleged unlawful killings in Iraq.

Several murder charges have already been brought against US personnel, of which those against the army officer are only the latest.

[shinRaiden 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Next time we see something like this on the telly we'll better close our eyes and say "never saw it, wasn't there, probably didn't happen!

So *hearing* something on the TV instantly makes you a credible expert on all the off-camera aspects as well?

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]So *hearing* something on the TV instantly makes you a credible expert on all the off-camera aspects as well?

Quote[/b] ] The military command launched an investigation after video footage showed a U.S. Marine shooting a wounded and unarmed man in a mosque in the city on Saturday. The man was one of five wounded and left in the mosque after Marines fought their way through the area.

A pool report by NBC correspondent Kevin Sites said the mosque had been used by insurgents to attack U.S. forces, who stormed it, killing 10 militants and wounding the five. Sites said the wounded had been left for others to pick up.

A second group of Marines entered the mosque on Saturday after reports it had been reoccupied. Footage from the embedded television crew showed the five still in the mosque, although several appeared to be close to death, Sites said.

He said a Marine noticed one prisoner was still breathing.

A Marine can be heard saying on the pool footage provided to Reuters Television: "He's f***ing faking he's dead."

"The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head," Sites said.

Reuters

Go ahead, defend an execution of a POW, but dont wonder the next time you dont get any pity when american soldiers are being executed.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]So *hearing* something on the TV instantly makes you a credible expert on all the off-camera aspects as well?  

You know, it's pretty funny that people are willing to believe in Iraqi WMDs and that Iraq had connections to 9/11 without any shread of proof than 'hunch' while being most unwilling to believe their own eyes when seeing soldier shooting a wounded unarmed insurgent.

[Harnu 0]

Quote[/b] ]So *hearing* something on the TV instantly makes you a credible expert on all the off-camera aspects as well?  

You know, it's pretty funny that people are willing to believe in Iraqi WMDs and that Iraq had connections to 9/11 without any shread of proof than 'hunch' while being most unwilling to believe their own eyes when seeing soldier shooting a wounded unarmed insurgent.

From several other reports I've seen on TV, there have been incidents, even on that same day and near by, that other Marines and servicemen would go and help injured OPFOR or possible civilian non-combatants, and then be killed by an IED or a booby trap.

It was a judgement call on that Marine, and given the current situation, IMO it seemed, not a correct course of action, but at the same time, not the "wrong" course of action.

[denoir 0]

A bit harsh, don't you think?  All we know is what was shown on the videotape, nothing more.  You also have to account for the fact that this Marine was wounded in the face the day prior--he shouldn't have even been back on the frontlines so soon.  I'm sure he was on edge and, having seen his friends killed in a similar situation in which a wounded man rolled a grenade out, then his response was somewhat to be expected.

Yes and he might have been abused as a child, played violent video games and listened to Marilyn Manson.

Regardless, the individual responsibility remains. He executed a wounded man.

If you care for the real context that leads to this kind of shit - including the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture, you have to look at the occupation itself. The US soldiers in Iraq have without a doubt by now noticed that they were sent there without a valid reason; that many back home oppose the war; that the Iraqis arn't too fond of them; that the situation is a mess where they can get killed any time.

They are getting shot at every day - they can't tell friend from foe. The Iraqis are openly hostile to them. So while they might be good soldiers and say what is expected of them in front if the camera, they would have to be brain dead to from their position believing that they are bringing "peace and democracy" to the place. The initial justification for the war (i.e WMD) turned out to be bogus. Anybody with half a brain would at this point be asking himself "WTF am I doing here?"

A breakdown in morale leads inevitably to a breakdown in discipline. This is where the similarities with the Vietnam war are strong.

As for the generalization, it might be in place. This is actually the third time we've seen on TV US military personel killing unarmed wounded people. First one was a CNN clip of a bunch of marines playing target practice on a guy wounded in a shootout - followed by cheering when they hit him. Second time was the Apache cam, with the pilot guiding the gunner to kill an unarmed guy who was barely able to crawl: "He's wounded. Hit him. Hit him again". And now we have the third time. And these are actually the things that got filmed and sent to TV stations. By all reason, that would cover for a fraction of the things going on. If they're doing this on camera, what are they doing when the camera is off?

And then of course there's Abu Ghraib - that still hasn't been properly investigated. By all accounts this was organized, yet only a few hillbily MP's who were dumb enough to take private pictures were charged.

[shinRaiden 0]

Quote[/b] ]

You know, it's pretty funny that people are willing to believe in Iraqi WMDs and that Iraq had connections to 9/11 without any shread of proof than 'hunch' while being most unwilling to believe their own eyes when seeing soldier shooting a wounded unarmed insurgent.

You know, it's pretty not funny that people are willing to condemn this marine without first having investigations into the information that is not public knowledge, and base every thing on video of one camera angle, audio over a blacked out portion, and video from another angle.

Is the marine supposed to say "Okay, I'll wait until you reach for that gun over there, pick it up, point it at me, then on the count of three we'll see who can pull the trigger faster"?

Is he supposed to hand him a grenade just in case he didn't have the time or munitions to boobytrap himself?

Is he supposed to take off his body armor and helmet to even the odds?

Is he obliged to give first aid to the insurgent to restore him to a 'fair' fighting capacity?

Does he have to strip and clean the insurgent's weapon to match the maintained level of his own weapon?

Does he have to radio his quartermaster to find a Iraqi Republican Guard uniform somewhere to give to the insurgent to make him a bonifide soldier and not a 'civilian'?

Does he have to have a team of JAG officers, Al'Qaida Clerics, UN observers, and ING officers to observe the interchange between two fighters?

Questions still very much open...

Was he a prisoner or no?

Was he reaching for a weapon or not?

Were others in the room reaching for weapons or not?

Were there weapons found on him or not?

What were the ROE as delivered by the marine's officer, and what were the ROE given in general training?

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Next time we see something like this on the telly we'll better close our eyes and say "never saw it, wasn't there, probably didn't happen!

So *hearing* something on the TV instantly makes you a credible expert on all the off-camera aspects as well?  

"We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very cooly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum." -John Kerry

Nothing like hearing about it on videotape eh shin?

Hey denoir. Wheres that "three little monkeys" pic that you used to use to such devestating effect? I think shin missed it.

[shinRaiden 0]

Huh. My Lai was investigated and court martials held. The media had no problem showing Abu Ghahib photos, no problem showing the photos of the Vietcong spy executed in the street, yet they're not giving all the details to the public, but you presume that based incomplete and anecdotal evidence a complete case?

Not once have I said the marine under investigation in this case is innocent or guilty. What I am pointing out is how hypocritically you who claim to be the moral defense against jumping to conclusions are yourselves jumping to conclusions.

The irony is that you are copycatting the attitude that you attack, accusing him of jumping the gun in shooting him, and in turn you are jumping to conclusions before the Marine Corps has even had a chance to hear the evidence pro and con.

[Akira 0]

I have seen the unedited video. The reports of witnesses at the scene are that the man was a)wounded and b)unarmed.

A marine patrol that had entered the building previously reported that all the people were unarmed and wounded. They left them there as they could not take prisoners (was a recon unit I believe...moving fast). Check ABC video for this report.

I haven't stated that he is guilty, but all the evidence is that he is, adn being an American Marine does not make him any less guilty.

[ozanzac 0]

Shooting an unarmed, injured person, point blank, in a Mosque, is wrong. Doing it whilst a media cameraman is filming is just plain fucking stupid.

Had there not been footage of the incident, it could have, and quite possibly would have, simply been pushed under the carpet, but because the footage is widely known, and the content undeniable, the US Armed Forces are forced to reprimand the soldier…hard.

Filmed or not, they should do so anyway, and treat all similar incidents much the same.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Huh. My Lai was investigated and court martials held. The media had no problem showing Abu Ghahib photos, no problem showing the photos of the Vietcong spy executed in the street, yet they're not giving all the details to the public, but you presume that based incomplete and anecdotal evidence a complete case?

Not once have I said the marine under investigation in this case is innocent or guilty. What I am pointing out is how hypocritically you who claim to be the moral defense against jumping to conclusions are yourselves jumping to conclusions.

The irony is that you are copycatting the attitude that you attack, accusing him of jumping the gun in shooting him, and in turn you are jumping to conclusions before the Marine Corps has even had a chance to hear the evidence pro and con.

if it wasn't for outcry, there won't be controversy, and trial. it is sad to see that some tend to think keeping silence will automatically bring truth out.

now, is it me or is that marine a failure as a soldier? Army field manual says that when you are clearing a room, throw a grenade in, and then enter, spraying anything they got. seems like marines either have completely different clearing technique, or the three cannot, for some reason do that.