martial arts talk

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ] person with martial arts knowledge who has trained to the extent that they can relieve themselves of all emotion and can empty the mind of all 'unnecesary'(typ?) thoughts will be able to react to the situation with ease and defuse the threat in a matter of seconds

Again. This is referring to a very specific minority.

The majority of martial arts practitioners simply aren't mentally prepared for something like that.

You're pretty much preaching to the choir. I'm aware what people who practice martial arts "can" do. I'm simply saying the majority of them can't do them.

You're talking about very exceptional individuals who've obviously put this knowledge to use many times over.

You will not ever convince me that any amount of controlled training excercises will ever prepare someone for a potentially brutal attack by some random person in the street.

This is why the navy seal who's turned many a tango's skull into an ashtray may easily be able to psychologically and physically respond in the right way to an attacker, but someone who goes every day for a few hours to a gym and spars with an instructor will not.

It's the difference much akin to paddling in a kiddie pool and then swimming in a river. One has simply never experienced anything quite like it and cannot be prepared even though they have a general idea of how.

Bruce Lee also said that the best way to practice swimming, is by swimming.

By this he mean't that if you were to be proficient at all in what you're doing you've got to practice that particular thing. Nothing will ever make an adequate substitute.

[B-2-0 0]

Of course you are correct, people that have 'progressed' as far as that are few and far between....but that's not to say that your average student can't achieve this level of mindset.  Anyone can.  It's a matter of controling your own emotional content.

Note that i said "For martial arts to have a real effect you need to allow yourself to progress to the level where it's more about state of mind rather than the moves you have learned or the strength you have gained"

That's the first step right there....freeing your mind of doubt and allowing yourself to believe you can achieve.

Quote[/b] ]You will not ever convince me that any amount of controlled training excercises will ever prepare someone for a potentially brutal attack by some random person in the street.

This is why the navy seal who's turned many a tango's skull into an ashtray may easily be able to psychologically and physically respond in the right way to an attacker, but someone who goes every day for a few hours to a gym and spars with an instructor will not.

That's totally contradictory.

The Navy SEAL has turned many a tango's skull into an ashtray with a psychologically sound mind and physically sound methods because of controlled training exercises.

Ask any soldier that has gone through, or knows about, resistance to interogation training it's all about conditioning of the mind.

[Ninja_STO 0]

Scrub, you studied under Hayes? VanDonk's teachers are also very good, but nothing beats Hayes. And I guess I missed the post from Denior, never knew you studied Ninpo too.

I'm sure you two and others can understand what I'm about to say. As mentioned before, some martial arts are designed more for competition than real fighting, but not all are like this. Some styles actually do not teach competition at all. Ninpo is one of a few styles that is designed for one purpose, self defense and ability to bring down an opponent fast, no matter what their size or strength. And I'm sure that any thug would find himself lucky to not be in the ICU after trying to fight someone who has studied Ninpo for a while. And this is not the only style to teach in this manner.

All I can say is, there are in fact several styles that teach pure combat techniques and no competition stuff. Some like learning to compete, as a sport. Others choose a style strictly for its power to stop an attacker cold. Same with weapons, some are for show, others are for real use. Personally, I enjoy Ninpo. Not only to I study for defense, but to stay in shape mentally and physically, and to learn about it's history and how it affected it's era. Take a trip to Japan some time, visit Mie, and a place called Iga Ueno. You'll find a lot of interesting things to see there, including the famed Ninja Museum and the gravesite of some of Ninpo's greatest legends.

[BoweryBaker 0]

Baphomet is right. There is a very specific minority that can handle the fighting mindstate and not flinch from a man with a bat........ Chinese people. Just playing. But on the real though, I'd probably cover my head and let him get real close, peak through, let him swing, then go low and attack just to throw him off.

[B-2-0 0]

Y'know, it's funny, most people seem to label the Chinese with a martial arts stereotype when in actual fact less than 20% of the Chinese population have practiced a martial art in their lifetime.

Thing is, even with such favourable odds, would you take the chance?

[Tamme 0]

Kung fu is not a sport, nor is it for show, or just for fitness. Wushu on the other hand, is for sport and show. But styles like Tai Shin Mun which are traditional kung fu are another thing. No competition, no shows no nothing. It doesn't even have any ranks except for student, teacher, teacher's teacher and grandmaster. There is no 'horseshit' as someone so kindly put it. How can you think that something that has survived for 3000-4000 years is horseshit?

The training may seem silly, but it all has a purpose and will eventually make you a stronger and a better fighter. You just can't master the art of kung fu in a few months. You will never learn if you don't train seriously and work for it. You also have to open your mind and understand the philosophy that comes with the training. It's not just the body, the mind is just as important if not the most important.

[Major Fubar 0]

...said it before, and I'll say it again...

IMHO, the "best" martial art is freeform brawling - hard to beat, hard to counter...

Just take a look at the UFC record of Ken Shamrock (no, not his WWF days!)  

[B-2-0 0]

Quote[/b] ]...said it before, and I'll say it again...

IMHO, the "best" martial art is freeform brawling - hard to beat, hard to counter...

Bruce Lee once said that the best person to spar against was an out and out lunatic brawler who was going to bite scratch and tear him apart....well, try at least.

But how can it be the 'best' martial art?

Ken Shamrock is a submision fighter/grappler.

It's a style of fighting and there will always be another style that will exploit flaws in it. A grappler has no chance of beating a 6' 6" Kick Boxer with legs like telegraph poles as he just won't get near him.  That's the beauty of Jeet Kune Do....totally flexible to any style.  You will find that most of the UFC fighters will have worked the parts of JKD that work for them into their style.

You can't judge a style against a style....it's an opinion based generalisation....it's like saying classical music is better than country music or baseball is better than basketball or, and here's a cracker, the SAS are harder than the US Marines.

You can only judge the quality of art by measuring individual artist quality.

You think these UFC guys would take Bruce Lee?

Yeah, i know i am pimping Bruce to the max but the guy is my idol and to be quite honest there is still nobody quite like him today and here's why.

Let's look at individual style.  Your average UFC fighter has some martial arts style (mainly Jiu Jitsu) mixed with outright hardcore street brawling/grappling/submission fighting technique and more than likely some JKD principles thrown in.

Granted, this resembles Bruce's 'way' probably more than any other martial art but there are still vast differences.

Jeet Kune Do takes numerous fighting styles and cuts away all the unessential parts.  This results in Bruce having a style (although it isn't classed as a style) that is heavily influenced by the speed, accuracy and attack & defence theory of Wing Chun but also incorporates the fluid, non-fixed positions, body mechanics and footwork of boxing aswell as Bruce's own unique way of kicking.  Extremely fast and extremely direct.  

He also adapted the parry and attack elements of fencing into a system where the two individual actions are formed into one fluid action....the way of the intercepting fist, or Jeet Kune Do.  

He was also a highly skilled grappler.  If you have seen any of his movies he finished most of his opponents with grappling. In 'Way of the Dragon' he finishes Chuck Norris with a neck break. In 'Game of Death' he beat Kareem Abdul-Jabbar with a headlock.

His speed was of the scale!!  Remember when he squares up with the his first opponent in 'Enter the Dragon' and as they touch wrists Bruce nails him with a lightning fast jab or remember the famous three kicks to the head of Chuck Norris in 'Way of the Dragon'.  They had to get him to slow down whilst filming 'The Green Hornet' as he was just too fast for people to be able to tell what was going on (not that he was too fast for the camera as some cock & bull rumors will have you believe.)  Amazing!!

His strength for such a small & slight guy was a joke!!  Push-ups on your index fingers....ouch!!  People he worked with on movies speak of him popping of bottle-tops with his thumb.  His famous 'One Inch Punch'.

The sheer fluidity and adaptability combined with awesome strength, speed and accuracy and his philosophical way of thinking & state of mind was just unbelievable and he would a complete nightmare for anyone to contend with.

I would have to say no way.

There never has been and probably never will be another like him.

Ok, i'll stop going on about Bruce Lee now.

He is awesome though!!

Ok ok...i'll stop!!

[Jinef 2]

Yes you will.

[der bastler 0]

I thought they would show me some basics of self-defense in the AGA (Bundeswehr basic training), but... nothing. At least I got to know how to shoot'n'throw the P1 and how to use the folding spade...

I'm doing Tai Chi for a couple of semesters now, here at university. Nice kind of Kung Fu, you learn to coordinate your body, you learn to stand, to breath and how to keep your balance. If you do it right (collect power in certain steps and "explode" fast in some others) it's martial art, too. Plus you learn those nice bend-the-wrist moves.

I also tried Jiu Jitsu. Interesting but also annoying, because I never learned to fall. Guess I've to attend some Judo courses first.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm doing Tai Chi for a couple of semesters now, here at university. Nice kind of Kung Fu

My girlfriend goes for Tai Chi for 2 years now. Whenever she leaves the house on thursday evening I wish her good luck with Kung Fu and she should learn how to break some stones with her fist. That would come handy when we cut wood for winter

It always takes me into a philosophical debate when I say Kung Fu instead of Tai Chi.

Women...you know the deal

[Scrub 0]

Ninja-STO,  As I'm still studying it, I agree.  Ninpo is awesome. It's core movements adjust to your mindstate.  And the other forms I have been fortunate enough to study (Tae-Kwon-Do Chang Mu Kwan, KodoKan Judo, and Fudo Ryu Karate-Do) have not been able to do anything except a forceful attack of the attack, no 'leaving something there' for the opponent to run into. No 'allowing' the opponent to mess themselves up.. The other styles force you to take aggressive action, giving away your intention. So when a technique doesn't work, it doesn't just breakdown and offer alternatives, it leaves a big-a$$ hole in your defenses.  You're comment about stopping conflict is dead on (the Wu Kanji in Budo), focus on that and you'll have the birth of moves that shutdown most any attack in one or two actions, regardless of style.  

The UFC, by the way, puts people together to fight for the wrong reasons.  Because of that you don't have the true measure of the person's skill, as there are still rules.  There are expectations of conduct.  There is knowledge of your opponent.  Not at all likely on the street.  Please keep that in mind.  And yes I'm fairly certain Ken Shamrock would be able to squash me, but he'd be apt to loose an eye or have his windpipe (or some other soft target) crushed in the process, as that is all a person with my build would be able to hurt ;-)

THAT GUY IS MASSIVE! lol

[EDIT:]  Just a begging to keep it as real as we can get on a forum.. Could we please not gage skill off of movies?  That is choreographed-redone-no threat-prop driven action to get someone watching excited..  On the street (talking downtown detroit, here)  it is very sneaky (A-La Shiriashi Sensei), simple, effective and quick - or if not effective, even quicker, unfortunately.  Luckily not many ppl I saw fight were at all skilled, and few got more than pummelled.. [/EDIT:]

[mr burns 132]

Has anyone practised Wing Chun? I knew someone who had done it for years, and was pretty good at it. Small thin guy, but could snap anyone in half if needed.

(Wing Chun was used by Shaolin monks to beat the crap out of other Shaolin monks. Yikes! )

I have been learning Wing Tchun kung fu for just over 3 years now. Wing Tchun is the modern style of Wing Chun, takes away some of the less useful bits and adds others. Master Milan Prosenica of Wing Tchun teaches professional fighters (Cro Cop for example uses Wing Tchun footwork, watch his highlights video for some interesting fighting)

I hate fighting on the street, it achieves nothing and is generally boring to watch However I love to sparr with my friends under controlled conditions, it really raises your fitness and strength levels. In class we don't usually sparr hard, though I have come out with bruises and bloody noses more than once. I enjoy training with other martial arts and seeing how well I can do against their style.

It would be interesting if anyone else uses Wing Tchun or Wing Chun.

RED

nice to see that other forum members learn wing tsun too    

i´m doing it for 2 month´s now and like it alot. never did any sports or martial arts before

(except some rugby during my time in school)..but WT really impressed me, it´s more fun than i thought.

here´s some movies if you´re interested (not showing me of course ):

http://www.wt-muc.de/sites/movies.htm#

[Harnu 0]

I've never actively practiced martial arts.  How useful are they in an ordinary fight/skirmish?  I almost routinely get into small fights (In the sense that they almsot never last long, or are just a few quick hits and then it ends) with a certain individual whom has been studying Tae Kwon Do (SP?) for a number of years now.  He's not that strong, and I'm a good bit taller than him, with a definate reach/wing span advantage on him, so I've never lost or made myself to look like an ass as I have made him a few times.  (If you're wondering, I just don't go around picking on him, I try to be nice to him and we talk to each other during school, but when me, him, and/or others all get to kidding around with each other, he takes it far too seriously and ends up getting himself into things he never wins).

How proficient do you really need to be in martial arts for them to serve a good defensive platform for yourself?  Because it sure hasn't been working out for that guy, or a few others I know of.

[mr burns 132]

How proficient do you really need to be in martial arts for them to serve a good defensive platform for yourself?  Because it sure hasn't been working out for that guy, or a few others I know of.

in wing tsun we learn something called "Blitzdefense" which was invented to end a fight before it begins, though it´s just a small derivate of the normal program. it is said that anyone can learn & use the basic blitzdefence moves in about 3 months iirc.

Link

i dunno if tae kwon do is really good, it sure looks kickass when they do high kicks and spin kicks..but the downside is that you got to be really fast, otherwise your standing open to your oppenent while lifting your leg..and standing w/o cover is baaad  

[BoweryBaker 0]

Tae Kwon Do is one of the few martial arts to get you into the olympics with, but I'd back it up with something else for sure, specifically in the hand department.

[stevevcb 3]

I've been doing aikido for about a year. Never saw the appeal of karate or other "punchy" martial arts, the less chance I have of killing someone, the less chance I have of getting arrested after a scrap in a pub.

I have learned a nice line in painful armlocks and how to throw people with very little effort

[ozanzac 0]

Only form of fighting I know is the 'Donnybrook'.

Not much beats force in numbers. In fact, when your with a bunch of mates, the lowlifes of society tend to stay well clear of you.

It's good, because none of us enjoy fighting at all. But the one time I've been involved was for a good cause. (Successful recovery of a mates wallet)

Put simply, it's just really reassuring that when things get out of hand, you know someones gonna be there to back you up.

Otherwise: I'm just a peaceful guy who'd prefer to stay out and clear of trouble, rather than remedy it by fisty cuffs.

[BoweryBaker 0]

Is the Donnybrook a word for a gang?

[SpongeBob 0]

Best.Move.Ever.

[BoweryBaker 0]

lol, ouch.  I can't even look at that.  Period. I'll be screaming for the next few seconds now, thanks.

[ozanzac 0]

Is the Donnybrook  a word for a gang?

Australian slang for 'all in brawl'.

The word 'gang' would be more closely associated to lowlife thugs, of which we certainly are not.

Quite simply, we're just a bunch of mates who look out for each other. 99% of the time, we'd prefer to stay clear of trouble (and dickheads that look for it), however when one of our own is blatantly and inescapably threatened, there are & would be no hesitations whatsoever to open up a can.

[BoweryBaker 0]

YEAH!  

Donnybrook.

[Harnu 0]

Is the Donnybrook  a word for a gang?

Australian slang for 'all in brawl'.

The word 'gang' would be more closely associated to lowlife thugs, of which we certainly are not.

Quite simply, we're just a bunch of mates who look out for each other. 99% of the time, we'd prefer to stay clear of trouble (and dickheads that look for it), however when one of our own is blatantly and inescapably threatened, there are & would be no hesitations whatsoever to open up a can.  

Groups do work out well. A big group of people whom dislike out center on the offensive line of the gridiron team, decided to surround and threaten him. There were about twenty of them, but when myself and a few others saw what they were doing, we went over to back up our center. Only took five of us to scare off the twenty or so of them. Quite funny to see all these people who acted so "big and bad" back down at the sight of a few of us football players. Really boosted my ego for that day

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://imageuploading.com/041025/1098746253.jpg

Best.Move.Ever.  

all i can say is, OUCH!

i learned Tae Kwon Do, and recently started Aikido. being old has made me fragile and have to take more subtle art.