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The fall of the wall has paved the way for fascists all over Europe. It truly was an anti-fascist wall of defence. If fascists get elected again after 70 years it shows that liberalism and capitalism are shit. I would gladly prefer a Cuban type of system any day, just like the majority of the Russian and Ukranian people, or the majority of the inhabitants of East Germany. Now even the Latvians voted for pro-soviet candidates. And the czech and french communists gained ground.

Too bad all left-wing parties have been eradicated in the UK. They have no capital or funding like the other parties to reach out to the masses and inform people about their politics. The parties with the biggest wallets (i.e capitalist support) win. There are no alternatives in british politics. All parties are factions of the same business-party.

Aaw comon Don't the Cuban's have like shitloads of restrictions on them? Like not everyone can own a computer and stuff...

In my country there was a sort of comitment made by the goverment in the mid 90'ies that every family should have a computer, because it was the way of the future. People could buy computers with a sort of a lowered price with the help of the goverment.

@Baff1 You brittish ey? :D

I've actually been to boro alot lately and I thought only it was here people where so unhappy and strange behaving.

One guy at work told me that the cameras suck out your soul everytime they watch you :D

Hope to something that Sweden won't try to over do things and put out cameras everywhere, its enough around malls and companies but out everywhere its crazy and the barbwire is makin me wonder if the UK is a prison sometimes :P

I mean it looks so ugly too with all the barbedwire around them moldy brickhouses that was built in the 40'ies and much hasn't been changed.

why aren't there any lovely nice cute warm wooden houses in the Uk?

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The fall of the wall has paved the way for fascists all over Europe. It truly was an anti-fascist wall of defence. If fascists get elected again after 70 years it shows that liberalism and capitalism are shit.

Good one.

In fact the rise of national and ultranational groups in germany for example is a result and problem of the non-existant education on the 3rd Reich matters in the former DDR. Things like that simply were blinded out and an open debate about immigration problems in the former DDR was never possible because of the rigid governmental and Stasi control. So basically the communist regime is responsible for the rise in facism as they kept people uneducated on the issue.

Get back onto your propaganda rocket and buzz off.

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Where is boro mate?

clubbaff.jpgw640.png

imag0029z.jpg

The barbed wire where I live is to keep in the sheep.

Prison for them, paradise for me.

There aren't a lot of wooden houses here because wood is a very flamable material. It's not an earthquake prone region so cheap fireproof materials such as brick are prefered.

Camera's?

There are countless cameras. By the time I get to the pub my number plate has been registered 3 times on a national data base. Since I have a criminal record, my face in the centre of towns, gets recorded to a database also.

When I get to the pub, (depending on the pub) it is not unusual that I must take off my hat as I walk in so that the security camera has me on record.

Practically speaking if you aren't commiting a crime, you won't notice, however when driving most humans speed. So on the roads everyone is paranoid about it and about 95% of the drivers in the country have been got by camera's.

If I was to run a business in town, I would be required to install a camera system in order to get insurance.

We are all aware of them, we have to be, they are there to make money from us. A taxation machine. In all honesty I think it's only the traffic ones that people rile about.

The anti-crime ones go down quite well. Prevent street fights and vandalism and yobbo's harrassing old people.

A side effect it has had is to promote the wearing of hoods on youth clothes, to hide peoples faces. Streetfashion. We call them Hoodies.

Edited by Baff1

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Aaw comon Don't the Cuban's have like shitloads of restrictions on them? Like not everyone can own a computer and stuff...

In my country there was a sort of comitment made by the goverment in the mid 90'ies that every family should have a computer, because it was the way of the future. People could buy computers with a sort of a lowered price with the help of the goverment.

Everyone can own a computer. They are even developing their own Linux OS called Nova Baire. Earlier it was a problem because they didn't have enough power. There are no nuclear plants on Cuba. And you can't really compare Cuba with Sweden because that isn't fair. You can compare Cuba with countries that share a similar history of colonialism and similar like Haiti. The difference between those countries is quite big.

Good one.

In fact the rise of national and ultranational groups in germany for example is a result and problem of the non-existant education on the 3rd Reich matters in the former DDR. Things like that simply were blinded out and an open debate about immigration problems in the former DDR was never possible because of the rigid governmental and Stasi control. So basically the communist regime is responsible for the rise in facism as they kept people uneducated on the issue.

Get back onto your propaganda rocket and buzz off.

Yeah, so that must be why there are fascists in Italy, France, Austria, Britain and Holland? Because DDR didn't teach them about fascism? (Which is completely wrong). DDR took an active stance against fascism and condemned it. Fascism was no problem during DDR times. And why is the Linke the biggest party in the east? Bad education too? Maybe there's bad (liberal) education in the west? Young people (who never lived during DDR-times) and who believe the western propaganda in former DDR turn to fascism because they think socialism and capitalism has no solutions (instead it's someone else's fault - some immigrants' with zero power and influence).

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And why is the Linke the biggest party in the east?

Humbug.

Because DDR didn't teach them about fascism? (Which is completely wrong). DDR took an active stance against fascism and condemned it. Fascism was no problem during DDR times.

I was talking about germany, in case you have missed it.

About the facts and the nazi-history the DDR has:

- the DDR anti-facism-propaganda was a myth at best

- 1951 the SED had 174.928 former NSDAP members and officers in their rows

- a big number of undercover Stasi members were former Nazis

- SED covered up the history of their members with a NSDAP record as they were usefull for their own operations. People who worked in concentration camps, gassing people were later on enlisted at the Stasi, as they were usefull for the apparatcik.

- Knowledge about former NSDAP officers, responsible for crimes against humanity, that were living in west-germany was not shared with the west. Instead of that the knowledge was used to blackmail the people in question and to have them work for the SED.

- People in the DDR who published lists of former NSDAP members were imprisoned, not decorated, as the SED claimed to have the only authority to decide wich Nazi is good for them (as a Stasi member or IM) and wich Nazi can be exploited for anti-western propaganda.

- in the 1950´s the former NSDAP members in the SED were the second biggest fraction in the DDR "parliament".

Fascism was no problem during DDR times.

It was. There was public facism from the late 1970´s till the end of the DDR. Especially at football-matches there were big outbreaks of Nazis, Skinheads. You might want to check the criminal records of that time before you claim nonsense.

This was an indirect result of the non-existing anti-nazi policy of the SED after the war.

Their propaganda told everyone that they were condemning facism, while they collected Nazis under their umbrella to use them for their very own purposes.

In short: It was a propaganda lie.

But you like such lies, don´t you ?

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Just a note on speed cameras:

When Ladyman was on Top Gear they disclosed a little known fact that they make more money from Simon Cowell's income tax than they do from speed cameras.

Still, the obsession that speed kills is also awful. I need to find it so I can link it, but the analysis of a report on car crashes was on carbibles.com and only 4% of crashes happened as a direct result of speeding. Most other times the problem was people not paying attention to the road.

Edited by MehMan

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Baff1 very nice house you live in and lots of green grass! :) Where I lived was more populated like a bigger town, just lots of houses and bricks and concrete :P

But yeah I guess Uk has its good spots too :)

If I had a good camera I could show you my mushrooms growin on the kitchen wall. :D

Just sometimes I regret moving there even if it is temporary :)

Edited by Commando84

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Where did you live mate. I can't work out the name.

boro?

Peterborough. (Yuck)?

Malborough (Nice)?

There are a lot of towns out there ending in boro.

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If I remember correctly, NPD is an established party that originated from DRP from 1950s/60s West Germany. Maybe the DDR regions are why these remain strongholds for such politics today, but it's been around for years.

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Where did you live mate. I can't work out the name.

boro?

Peterborough. (Yuck)?

Malborough (Nice)?

There are a lot of towns out there ending in boro.

Middlesbrough :D

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Humbug.

Check the election results. It's quite nice to see how they gain ground in the west now too. Polling 12% nationally, which is a lot.

I was talking about germany, in case you have missed it.

And we're talking about Germany. What did you think?

- the DDR anti-facism-propaganda was a myth at best

That's complete bullshit. The soviet zone (later DDR) had the most intense denazification programmes of all allied zones. All high-ranking nazis (party members), 120 000, were put into labour camps from which only 30 000 returned.

There were still a lot of nazis in important position of CDU and in the german capitalist class, while the communist party was banned just like in the "good" old times.

Just a few ministers and similar who were nazis:

Herbert Blankenhorn

Karl Carstens

Hermann Höcherl

Theodor Oberländer

Gerhard Schröder (not the SPD guy)

Hanns-Martin Schleyer

Not just party members but members of the SS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-Nazi_Party_members

In SED we find 5 prominent ex-nazis. In BRD there are over 40. Do you see the difference?

"Germanys first post-war recession coincided with the formation of a Grand Coalition of the Christian Union Parties and the Social Democrats in December 1966. These circumstances favoured the rapid growth of the NPD, which gave form to right-wing dissatisfaction with the economic downturn and hostility to the Government. The NPD entered parliaments in seven states between 1966 and 1969, with between 5.8 and 9.8 per cent of the vote."

The only reason they didn't get bigger, was because the militant antifascists were too many.

"Halbauer and Mosler argue that the failure of the NPD to sustain its activity on this occasion was overwhelmingly due to militant counterdemonstrations, which mobilised 7 000 people on 17 June 1977 and 50 000 on 17 June 1979 to prevent the NPD from marching (43-44). Neither parliamentary changes nor the resumption of impressive levels of growth played a significant role in undermining the NPD on this occasion.

During the late 1980s two other right-wing extremist organisations, concentrating on electoral tactics achieved some successes. One DVU member entered the Bremen parliament in 1987 and the Republicans won six seats in the European Parliament and 11 in the Berlin Senate in 1989. Both organisations are based in Bavaria (though the DVUs successes have been concentrated in northern states) and target foreigners as the source of economic and other problems in Germany. "

"Over half a million exNazi Party members in the Soviet Occupation Zone were sacked between the end of the War and March 1948. This was used by the communist regime to emphasise its anti-fascist credentials compared to West Germany, where limited denazification had left nazis in prominent positions in business and the public sector. "

There were ex-nazis in DDR too, but they were mainly organized in a nationalist liberal party, the National Democratic Party of Germany, NDPD. Not SED.

"Its programme demanded, among other things, the promotion of the middle class and an end to discrimination against former members of the Nazi Party"

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All big government parties are the same. We want to control your life, liberty, and property. The rights; the lefts. They are all the same thing when you break it down. More government; more control. There are only individualists and collectivists. Most parties internationaly are collectivist. So praying to one god is often the same as praying to another. The politicians are all liars, manipulators, and sociopaths. As soon as the government wants to control an aspect of a persons life, there is something wrong. Most people here would agree that parties supporting control on games are wrong.

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Still, the obsession that speed kills is also awful. I need to find it so I can link it, but the analysis of a report on car crashes was on carbibles.com and only 4% of crashes happened as a direct result of speeding. Most other times the problem was people not paying attention to the road.

Well, even if speeding isn't the direct cause of a crash, the faster a car is travelling the harder the impact when it does crash.

So high speed = high chance of death.

The closest times I've come from crashing is usually when some woman suddenly launches out of a driveway in front of me. This is not a direct result of speed. It was from people not paying attention, as you say it's the most common cause of crashes.

But speed is still a factor, the faster I am going, the high the chance I will crash into said stupid woman, and the higher chance of injury or death.

Yes I said woman, because it has happened several times and it has always been a woman :confused:

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All big government parties are the same. We want to control your life, liberty, and property. The rights; the lefts. They are all the same thing when you break it down. More government; more control. There are only individualists and collectivists. Most parties internationaly are collectivist. So praying to one god is often the same as praying to another. The politicians are all liars, manipulators, and sociopaths. As soon as the government wants to control an aspect of a persons life, there is something wrong. Most people here would agree that parties supporting control on games are wrong.

Yes, most parties are the same. Democracts and Republicans are just two factions of the same business party. Same goes for Labour, Tory, Lib Dem. It's like that everywhere. The only parties who succeed are those who receive funding to run campaigns and hand out information en masse. Those parties usually have newspapers supporting them. Elections in a capitalist society aren't democratic, they are rigged in the favor of pro-capitalists. Capitalists support pro-capitalist parties, while they work against anti-capitalists. There's usually no left in parliament politics. There's only right (non-socialists). SPD, Labour, all the so called "social democrats" aren't left. They just want to make slavery a bit nicer.

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All big government parties are the same. We want to control your life, liberty, and property. The rights; the lefts. They are all the same thing when you break it down. More government; more control. There are only individualists and collectivists. Most parties internationaly are collectivist. So praying to one god is often the same as praying to another. The politicians are all liars, manipulators, and sociopaths. As soon as the government wants to control an aspect of a persons life, there is something wrong. Most people here would agree that parties supporting control on games are wrong.

Very much agreed. There was once a "right wave" across the world with Thatcher, Reagan etc. This was caused by libertarian ideas, but now, the traditional right has left these ideas that got them their former success. Today theres barely any difference between left and right on the issue of government control and libertarianism.

I think the right needs to find the libertarian ideas that they lost along the way, and I think its going to happen soon, after things have become worse. When politicians become all about high amounts of government control, it can never last in the long run. Having politicians do the markets is like getting a plummer to do your electrical wiring.

It never has worked, and it never will.

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Libertarianism implies political power in the hands of a few private corporate tyrannies. That's worse than state-tyrannies because there you have some influence.

The more government control the better. Markets can't handle themselves, capitalism as a whole is unstable, which Marx proved, and that's also what we can see from history. We have examples from the Tulip bubble of 1637 to the current financial crisis. Capitalism isn't based on rationality or planning. It's total market anarchy, and when it goes bad real people feel the consequences, just like under Thatcher and Reagan.

Having politicians do the markets is like getting a plummer to do your electrical wiring.

That's a myth. It's better having democratic control over markets than having dictatorial plutocracy. Economy is not just about making the rich richer. Good politicians speak up for the weak and poor like Chavez, Castro, Morales and others. In Venezuela the economy has grown by 100% since Chavez got elected for the first time (before the liberals used the army to coup him). Poverty has dropped dramatically, illiteracy has been eliminated. Living standards are far better. Same goes for the Cuban economy which is extremely regulated. They had two-digit growth for many years now, while libertarian countries like Haiti where nothing apart from the police is owned by state has a population in complete misery. We also know what happened to the unregulated countries like Iceland and Baltics. The USSR has the world-record in growth. The planned economy took that country out from the mud and into space. All companies are planned economies internally, some companies are as big as countries. So with the computational power of today there's no problem in planning the economy to get even more accurate results.

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About Chavez, it probably should be mentioned that the government is pumping large amounts of oil up that largely pays the state expenses. One day the oil will run out and mr Chavez may find himself in a tough position if still in power.

That's worse than state-tyrannies because there you have some influence.

I tend to disagree. Laws and the justice system can always protect you from private companies, but nothing can protect you from the Government and (a wrongly) justice system itself. Companies also survive upon customer acceptance.

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That's another media myth.

The Center for Economic and Policy Research found that:

  • The current economic expansion began when the government got control over the national oil company in the first quarter of 2003. Since then, real (inflation-adjusted) GDP has nearly doubled, growing by 94.7 percent in 5.25 years, or 13.5 percent annually.
  • Most of this growth has been in the non-oil sector of the economy, and the private sector has grown faster than the public sector.
  • During the current economic expansion, the poverty rate has been cut by more than half, from 54 percent of households in the first half of 2003 to 26 percent at the end of 2008. Extreme poverty has fallen even more, by 72 percent. These poverty rates measure only cash income, and do not take into account increased access to health care or education.
  • Over the entire decade, the percentage of households in poverty has been reduced by 39 percent, and extreme poverty by more than half.
  • There have been substantial gains in education, especially higher education, where gross enrollment rates more than doubled from 1999-2000 to 2007-2008.
  • Over the past decade, the number of social security beneficiaries has more than doubled.
  • * Real (inflation-adjusted) social spending per person more than tripled from 1998-2006.

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/report-examines-economy-and-social-indicators-during-the-chavez-decade-in-venezuela/

There is no way that they revert back to neo-liberalism voluntarily (the US and capitalist class might think different, and stage another coup). Country by country leaves liberalism for socialism. Liberalism has been thrown on the junkyard of history.

I tend to disagree. Laws and the justice system can always protect you from private companies, but nothing can protect you from the Government and (a wrongly) justice system itself. Companies also survive upon customer acceptance.

You don't elect your boss or capitalist. You "elect" your government. If you work in a factory you have no choice but to work for the share holders and do what they say. Companies like Chiquita (United Fruit) have staged coups in the past. Politicians in a liberal society are usually just serving the purposes of the capitalist class.

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Well, even if speeding isn't the direct cause of a crash, the faster a car is travelling the harder the impact when it does crash.

So high speed = high chance of death.

The closest times I've come from crashing is usually when some woman suddenly launches out of a driveway in front of me. This is not a direct result of speed. It was from people not paying attention, as you say it's the most common cause of crashes.

But speed is still a factor, the faster I am going, the high the chance I will crash into said stupid woman, and the higher chance of injury or death.

Yes I said woman, because it has happened several times and it has always been a woman :confused:

I normally crash at about 5 miles an hour. I've never crashed faster and I've crashed a few times.

A faster car is more dangerous than a slower car. This is undeniable.

A slow car is however much less useful.

Not everything in life should be an issue of maximum safety. Reasonable safety is prefered.

All big government parties are the same. We want to control your life, liberty, and property. The rights; the lefts. They are all the same thing when you break it down. More government; more control. There are only individualists and collectivists. Most parties internationaly are collectivist. So praying to one god is often the same as praying to another. The politicians are all liars, manipulators, and sociopaths. As soon as the government wants to control an aspect of a persons life, there is something wrong. Most people here would agree that parties supporting control on games are wrong.

Hits the nail on the head for me.

Communist, capitalist, makes no issue for me as long as they leave me alone to live my life.

You can quit your job and get another. Changing your government is rather harder to do.

If you don't like working at the fruit factory, plant your own. Seeds are cheap. Free with every apple!

Being a capitalist doesn't mean you have to work in someone elses factory.

That's the difference between being successful, strong and self reliant and being someone elses bitch, who just moans about how his shortcomings are all other peoples fault.

If you don't want to work in the factory, leave. The world is your oyster.

Edited by Baff1

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Well, even if speeding isn't the direct cause of a crash, the faster a car is travelling the harder the impact when it does crash.

So high speed = high chance of death.

The closest times I've come from crashing is usually when some woman suddenly launches out of a driveway in front of me. This is not a direct result of speed. It was from people not paying attention, as you say it's the most common cause of crashes.

But speed is still a factor, the faster I am going, the high the chance I will crash into said stupid woman, and the higher chance of injury or death.

Yes I said woman, because it has happened several times and it has always been a woman :confused:

Indeed, speed is a considerable factor, but not always the cause. The problem is not paying enough attention. And I very nearly had a crash because of that. I was speeding down the motorway, got stuck behind a lorry, it was 9am, which is very very early for me, I was sleepy and on my way to college. So behind the lorry stuck I am, looking into my mirror I see five cars coming up. One, two, three, four, five pass, I check my mirror again, nobody behind them, indicator on and on my way into an audi! Mysterious sixth car that I didn't notice! Didn't check over my shoulder. A horn and this huge black mass next to me wake me up and back behind the lorry I go in complete and utter shock!

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Libertarianism implies political power in the hands of a few private corporate tyrannies. That's worse than state-tyrannies because there you have some influence.

The more government control the better. Markets can't handle themselves, capitalism as a whole is unstable, which Marx proved, and that's also what we can see from history. We have examples from the Tulip bubble of 1637 to the current financial crisis. Capitalism isn't based on rationality or planning. It's total market anarchy, and when it goes bad real people feel the consequences, just like under Thatcher and Reagan.

That's a myth. It's better having democratic control over markets than having dictatorial plutocracy. Economy is not just about making the rich richer. Good politicians speak up for the weak and poor like Chavez, Castro, Morales and others. In Venezuela the economy has grown by 100% since Chavez got elected for the first time (before the liberals used the army to coup him). Poverty has dropped dramatically, illiteracy has been eliminated. Living standards are far better. Same goes for the Cuban economy which is extremely regulated. They had two-digit growth for many years now, while libertarian countries like Haiti where nothing apart from the police is owned by state has a population in complete misery. We also know what happened to the unregulated countries like Iceland and Baltics. The USSR has the world-record in growth. The planned economy took that country out from the mud and into space. All companies are planned economies internally, some companies are as big as countries. So with the computational power of today there's no problem in planning the economy to get even more accurate results.

I dont really want to get into an argument with you, but you seem to misunderstand or are not applying names to functions properly. Technology growth and economic growth are not the same thing. Libertarianism has many meanings in different countries, but I will tell you what American Libertarianism is.

American Libertarianism is the belief that groups do not exist and only individuals do. That all individuals are equally free, and have the basic rights of life, liberty, and property. There hasn't been a single monopoly thats been able to exist without support from the government at one point in time or another. What you are trying to label is more of a form of facism. Where public-private hybrid entities maintain or are maintained through money and control. Individualist market or "Free market capitalism" is when competition between all free individuals strengthen the economy and provide products and services at a price people are willing to pay for. Therefor it is impossible to survive as a business if nobody approves of your products or services. Now please understand that the reason why many people get confused on this is when definitions were messed up in the 20th century.

On technology versus economy, technology does not guarantee the happiness of a population. Many many people were highly unhappy with the completely nationalized economy of the soviet union. The soviet union was very technologicaly advanced and had a powerful army, but economicaly it was weak and many people were poor. A government monopoly simply cannot efficiently run an economy, as there is no driving force when all money is forced out of the hands of the people.

Remember, the greater good only matters when YOU are alive.

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Or, "liberalism" as I think the majority of the world calls it. Oh you silly Americans :)

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I'm very well aware of the different meanings of words in the US and the rest of the world. Libertarianism (the american one), is usually the same as everywhere else. And it's that one, economic libertarianism, that I dislike. Social libertarianism is great though.

There are owners and there are workers. Just like there were slave owners and slaves, land owners and serfs. Those groups have completely different and opposite interests. Together they belong to two different classes.

but economicaly it was weak and many people were poor. A government monopoly simply cannot efficiently run an economy, as there is no driving force when all money is forced out of the hands of the people

Yes. The people were poor because they had to put all money into their defence budget (otherwise there would've been an invasion just like after the revolution and then with Hitler) + re-investments to expand industry.

Government monopolies are very efficient, if done correctly. That's why the USSR could progress for example. But there were other problems in that country.

I "elect my capitalist" everyday, by simply buying what suits me

Yes you do. 1 Dollar per vote. 1 Dollar per unit freedom. The homeless and unemployed are free to sleep outside with a magnificent view of the stars during cold winter nights. Likewise, the capitalists "vote" by using their capital. What kind of democracy is that? It's a plutocracy! Politicians are bought, their campaigns funded. Newspapers and media too. The military-industrial complex votes for more war - more profits. War will never end as long as people profit from it. 1 vote per Dollar is the reason why society looks like it does. And that's what makes it different from Cuba and similar countries.

Edited by Spokesperson

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I'm very well aware of the different meanings of words in the US and the rest of the world. Libertarianism (the american one), is usually the same as everywhere else. And it's that one, economic libertarianism, that I dislike. Social libertarianism is great though.

There are owners and there are workers. Just like there were slave owners and slaves, land owners and serfs. Those groups have completely different and opposite interests. Together they belong to two different classes.

Yes. The people were poor because they had to put all money into their defence budget (otherwise there would've been an invasion just like after the revolution and then with Hitler) + re-investments to expand industry.

Government monopolies are very efficient, if done correctly. That's why the USSR could progress for example. But there were other problems in that country.

Yes you do. 1 Dollar per vote. 1 Dollar per unit freedom. The homeless and unemployed are free to sleep outside with a magnificent view of the stars during cold winter nights. Likewise, the capitalists "vote" by using their capital. What kind of democracy is that? It's a plutocracy! Politicians are bought, their campaigns funded. Newspapers and media too. The military-industrial complex votes for more war - more profits. War will never end as long as people profit from it. 1 vote per Dollar is the reason why society looks like it does. And that's what makes it different from Cuba and similar countries.

But you haven't described a single reason that makes a government monopoly more efficient then market competition.

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