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denoir

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What do they gain from this? Nothing but death and destruction.. confused_o.gif

Pride is a expensive thing, sadly.

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They gain greater influence in CIS countries. I think its obviously an act of intimidation against them and this is just the latest in a string of intimidations against Georgia.

They don't want CIS countries forming alliances with NATO or the US. Georgia has allowed US SF personell within its borders. Georgia has been one of the most outspoken opponents of Russian influence recently.

And I know I posted this in the other topic, but this is the exactl story line of Ghost Recon 1 - where in 2008, US "ghosts" help defend Georgia against attack from Russia because of the rebels in South Ossetia...scary.

censored self to be more "politically correct"

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Well no media reports are fair. Russian news is obviously biased. Same goes for US, Georgian, German etc news. Even if Germany isn't involved directly, the owners of its "free"  _private_ press is. It's a monopoly situation. Only private interests. Germany is just an example.

The regime of Georgia is pro-business and pro-west. The owners of western media might side with Georgia because of the oil-pipelines and gas deals.

It all depends on if Russia is a better business partner than Georgia. Is it worth to spoil relations (and lots of money) with Russia over that?

I hope the Russians go into Georgia and kick out Sakashvili and his even-more dictatorial cabinet.

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Discussion is again came to how bad russians are. Damn, you're incorrigible, guys.  banghead.gif

2Spokesperson

You want our boys to sweep georgian's goverment by their own lifes? Thanks, noone needs such ending. We simply want Georgia to stop bloodshed in SO. Other things is not our bussiness. Let them stew in their own juice.

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Discussion is again came to how bad russians are. Damn, you're incorrigible, guys.  banghead.gif

I censored myself slightly but we have this saying:

"It is what it is."

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2 Scubaman

Never tried to view the situation under diffirent angle? Cold War is over and Tom Clancy is world-known fantasy-writer. The same is about his games.

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Yes I think you should free Georgia from its government. Especially if it's doing ethnic cleansing.

But I don't think there will be much more bloodshed. When the Georgians see that SO gets reinforcements they won't be able to do anything. They would be crazy if they declared war.

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As I said noone needs true insurgency here. If georgians elected such goverment...Well, it's their choice. And life of even one russian soldier doesn't cost life of Mikhail Saakashvili. We simply want them to respect lives of our citizens.

Hopefully situation now is stabilized - georgians left Tskhival and SO forces regain control of strategic heights. NTV just showed their correspondent in the streets and the main tragedy is what many innocent people are dead. There's no electricity, no water, hospital is bombed to the ground. And it were not russians, who did this.

Come on, that's not about war, that's about inocent people suffer such a nightmare. A whole night under constant bombardment...

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Never tried to view the situation under diffirent angle?

We're all products of our environment my friend - you included.

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Guys what we need to understand is that our world is going to hell.

the Brainwashed Society of the world thinks that they are safe from Terrorism. but in reality they are. THEY are not safe from our own Governments. as you see what the EU is slowly becomming. ( one day a it just might be re named to the EF (European Federation) or a Facists Superstate, Including england). slowly.     just think about it.

they already have ONE united currency. the Euro.  A possible united Economy.   and hell. Erase all borders.

hell. enlgands situation is already shit.   they have cameras on EVERY street corner. waching your EVERY move. they have these crazy polotions taht what oppression. and control.   AKA Gordon Brown. Nick Griffin.  hell, one day the brits might be forced to have barcodes printed on the back on there necks.

And for the United States Government.  Bush is crazy. he is trying to push for a NORTH AMERICAN UNION (NAU)   Canada+Mexico+USA=One Controlled Nation.

the Currency will be called the Amero.

you all need to WAKE UP. Stand up for somting. stand up for your freedom and your rights taht these thugs in office want to take away from you.

and i dont want to sound like im supporting the terrorists. IM NOT.   but they already won this war.  a long time ago.   they already defeated england.  as you see. they scared our governments shitless. so they have to monitor our every move. turning us into slaves.

tahts waht the terroirts want. they dont want to destroy teh west. they jsut want to bring us to our knees and scare our governments shitless.

WAKE UP!!!!!!!

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Got to agree with the Ghost Recon point, it was the first thing I noticed when I read this story (Exact story from the game)... On that note, Tom Clancy's games used to be exceptionally well researched fantasy.

A quick bit of research indicates that South Ossetia has no resources, but taxes freight on a tunnel from Russia to the rest of Georgia, and this accounts for 1/3 of the region's revenue. They also get all their electricity from Russia, since they've been cut off from the infrastructure of the rest of Georgia. They're heavily Ossetian with a Georgian minority, and the majority of the people there favor separating from Georgia, according to the most recent polls.

My gut wanted me to side against the Russian move (My parents trained a good chunk of their adult lives to fight the reds, I grew up steeped in the Cold War), but it sounds like being annexed by Russia again might be good for the people there.

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you all need to WAKE UP. Stand up for somting. stand up for your freedom and your rights taht these thugs in office want to take away from you.

and i dont want to sound like im supporting the terrorists. IM NOT.   but they already won this war.  a long time ago.   they already defeated england.  as you see. they scared our governments shitless. so they have to monitor our every move. turning us into slaves.

tahts waht the terroirts want. they dont want to destroy teh west. they jsut want to bring us to our knees and scare our governments shitless.

Every government in the world used terrorism and national security as an excuse to strip away personal liberties in the name of national security, that's what governments do. Also, England was one of the most heavily surveilled countries before Terrorism was on everyone's minds.

They're not worried about bringing us to our knees or scaring our government. The motivations for Terrorism are varied, but the great tying factor is Western foreign policy during the Cold War. We crapped all over the third world for the better part of a century to keep Communism in check, and in doing so put a lot of bad people in power who were only able to comfortably do so with our support. When we pulled out of the world after the Cold War ended, we left behind a war-torn mess run by petty dictators prone to killing their own people and being upset about the lack of support they were now getting. The US has been flaunting its opulence in the world's face for decades, and we gained that wealth at the expense of a lot of peoples' suffering. Also, Israel's interaction with its neighboring countries has not been friendly since they created their state after WW2, and the United States' unilateral support of Israel has not helped our standing with any middle eastern country.

Anyway, I guess my point is our government wants us to be scared shitless way more than "The Terrorists" want our government to the scared shitless. The government gets more control that way, and nobody argues, because we're all worried that Jihadists coming across from Mexico are going to take away all our H2's and Mickey D's.

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@ Kolt

If you are not going to take the post seriously then don't bother posting.

PS

For fuck sake it's the UK not England.

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because we're all worried that Jihadists coming across from Mexico are going to take away all our H2's and Mickey D's.

lol they can have Micky D's. they gave america a bad name anyway

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hell. enlgands situation is already shit.   they have cameras on EVERY street corner. waching your EVERY move. they have these crazy polotions taht what oppression. and control.   AKA Gordon Brown. Nick Griffin.  hell, one day the brits might be forced to have barcodes printed on the back on there necks.

Eh? Every street corner you say?

*Goes and looks out the window*

You're talking crap mate: can't see any CCTV cameras around here. The nearest one's probably in my newsagent and that'd be installed by the shopkeeper to make sure I'm not nicking sweets; not the government, so they can check what colour trainers I'm wearing today.  

There are loads of them in busy high-streets where there are shops and bars etc and in car parks, but we don't have them on every street. On a busy night out, the Police normally stick a van with additional, mobile cameras outside clubs. I don't think that'd be necessary if we had cameras watching everyone's every move.

As gsleighter said, CCTV cameras have been prolific in city streets since long before 7/7, and even 9/11. People have only got paranoid about how they effect our civil liberties since the issue of ID cards and other infringements on our privacy got raised post-9/11.

I best move to Scotland or Wales then if it's only England that has been defeated by the nasty terrorists. I'm sure there aren't any cameras in Scottish city centres... rofl.gif

We had terrorists doing nasty things to our country since even before Osama Bin Laden pissed off to 'ghan to fight the Ruskies. Maybe the prolific use of CCTV in some cities had somet to do with the IRA's bombing campaign; I dunno. The fact that the terrorists have changed from bonkers Irishmen to crazy Muslims doesn't seem to have resulted in that many more cameras in the UK, except for their installation on public transport. That said, putting them on trains etc has been a good move in my book: at least nowadays, most of the seats don't smell like they've been piddled on by drunk pikeys.

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for Soviets and Russia was war always great way to 'shift' away focus of own population from economical / political problems to that war ...

happened more than 3 times in past and will happen again ...

peace keeping was classified even Czechoslovakia invasion or Hungary

also remember that Georgia was invaded by Red Army in 1921 to get rid of relatively democratic yet socialistic regime there ...

over 10k people were executed and tens thousands sent to gulags in Siberia ...  and bet real numbers were bit higher ...

so i fear the Bear now decided Chechnya prey is too dead to be beat 3rd time in 'interesting way' ...

p.s. South Ossetia won theirs 'fight' of autonomy and there was peace since theirs break with Georgia most (not all) of population swapped theirs citizenship from Georgia to Russia

situation is more complicated because of the citizenship swap Russia can easily claim Georgia separatists or army kills theirs citizens (and vice versa same for these who not swapped)

seems to be hard is to just have peace right ?

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During soviet times there was nothing to shift focus from. In a planned economy there are no conjuncture cycles.

Georgia was liberated by the red army in 1921.

Interventions in Cz or Hungary were not wars. The eastern-european countries rushed in to aid and put things to order, and stopped reactionary forces in society.

And you forget that Georgia is the aggressor here. Russian troop presence guaranteed peace and life. Now with new reinforcements to the peace-keepers I guess Georgia has to sign a truce.

The SOers voted positive on independence. Georgia doesn't respect that vote. Earlier this year they closed and censored tv-channels in combination with the elections.

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Liberated is a funny word, since the Soviets were pretty brutal about suppressing several movements to secede from the USSR from 1921 to 1991.

Social welfare programs are great, a lot of us can agree on that. But personal freedoms, especially freedoms to speak against your own government without fear of reprisal, were non-existent in the USSR.

This conflict is a whole different animal, though, and on its surface seems to have less to do with reunification of the Russian empire and more to do with protecting Russian people.

However, Russia was heavily taxed for goods moving through SO through the tunnel connecting Russia with the rest of Georgia, and depending on the cost of moving those goods, it might be cheaper to spend some money invading the country and securing that tunnel for Russia.

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OMG. Sometimes I really think westerners can't see what lies on the surface. Awake, people - this was not "an invading force", but an additional forces to back-up the batallion of russian peacekeepers in the region! There was only a batallion of them against all georgian forces - they simply couldn't do anything about their mission, that was given them by UN Security Council!

It's not them, who started this and it's not them, who storming Tskhivali or Tbilisi.

If you think about "secret plan of evil russians how to restore their Soviet Empire" or something like that, then go to the X-Files and investigate numerous UFO appearences with agent Mulder.

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This is a planned action from Russia.

Anyone remember that a few months ago, Georgian UAV was shot down by Russian fighter? Russia has been looking for excuses to annex that part of Georgia, and sudden "reinforcement" are a good representation of that.

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2 Ralph Wiggum

Then Georgians are totally stupid - they just presented us so good execuse. Anyway - it's too late to regret. Now SO will join the great Russian Empire for ever! Amen.

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Interventions in Cz or Hungary were not wars.

So when the Czechs and Hungarians didn't want Soviets and communism, it was only fitting that they are crushed by military, right?

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OMG. Sometimes I really think westerners can't see what lies on the surface. Awake, people - this was not "an invading force", but an additional forces to back-up the batallion of russian peacekeepers in the region! There was only a batallion of them against all georgian forces - they simply couldn't do anything about their mission, that was given them by UN Security Council!

It's not them, who started this and it's not them, who storming Tskhivali or Tbilisi.

If you think about "secret plan of evil russians how to restore their Soviet Empire" or something like that, then go to the X-Files and investigate numerous UFO appearences with agent Mulder.

Okay, I did not know that there were already a battalion of peacekeepers, so pardon me that.

It seems from the news that Russia's stated intent is intervening to stop ethnic cleansing from taking place in SO, which seems noble. No government is immune from scrutiny, though, even my own (US), and so I'm not suggesting any unreasonable conspiracies.

The world stage has changed dramatically in the last decade, the better part of the 20th century was dominated by a United States able to act unilaterally to put pressure on any region in the world for its own gain, and now with Russia resurging as a world power, and China having its own industrial revolution, power is more shared. The era of the US being the sole world power has come to an end, and I think it's a good thing.

Back on point, governments are systems of power, and given an opportunity, will seek to solidify their hold on people, resources, and territory. Stopping a campaign of ethnic cleansing in a territory that's been crapped on by its own country is quite a bit noble. I'm just saying that it would also be a great opportunity to secure some more territory and cheaper trade through the region.

*Edit to fix spelling mistake.

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2 Ralph Wiggum

Then Georgians are totally stupid - they just presented us so good execuse. Anyway - it's too late to regret. Now SO will join the great Russian Empire for ever! Amen.

Did you read my post? It was Russian that shot down Georgian UAV, not the other way. and Georgians are stupid?

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