International Politics Thread

[Bordoy 0]

Supah is 25, doubt he went to school last week.

Well the current actual rate of asylum seekers or immigrants, the white british person will possibly be a minority by 2040ish, but obviuosly things will change for the better hopefully as more people become aware of the problem.

NationMaster This is not even affiliated with the goverment or Daily Mail.

[Bordoy 0]

I wouldn't go this far though.

This was last year anyway so nothing new, that guy should go home.

[Donnervogel 0]

Bordoy. The sad thing is just that you obviously don't even know how the EU works. Yet you put everything you don't like on the shoulders of the EU. I beg you to inform you first. And get real information. The sad fact is that most things you don't like about the EU have passed your parliament and are imposed trough british law. Yes it's the EU that wants some things to happen. But the EU in it's current state can't give you any laws nor is it strong enough to influence national parliaments in a great way. Only the british parliament can give those laws. So if you feel betrayed go complain to your domestic parliament for betraying britain.

[Bordoy 0]

Bordoy. The sad thing is just that you obviously don't even know how the EU works. Yet you put everything you don't like on the shoulders of the EU. I beg you to inform you first. And get real information. The sad fact is that most things you don't like about the EU have passed your parliament and are imposed trough british law. Yes it's the EU that wants some things to happen. But the EU in it's current state can't give you any laws nor is it strong enough to influence national parliaments in a great way. Only the british parliament can give those laws. So if you feel betrayed go complain to your domestic parliament for betraying britain.

Yer i agree with you about the goverment.

The British constitution, including the ancient rights and liberties laid down in the Magna Carta and Bill of Rights, belong to the British people – and not to Parliament or any political party – who have no right to remove these.

[Donnervogel 0]

err you are aware that the members of the house of commons are freely and generally elected representatives of the people, aren't you?

[Supah 0]

Supah is 25, doubt he went to school last week.

Well the current actual rate of asylum seekers or immigrants, the white british person will possibly be a minority by 2040ish, but obviuosly things will change for the better hopefully as more people become aware of the problem.

NationMaster This is not even affiliated with the goverment or Daily Mail.

I have done some preparatory classes recently because I intend to start studying to become a history teacher. WW2 is still very much on the curiculum. But apparently now that that claim has been countered you are just going to go with the asylum seeker thing? When countries join the EU their citizens lose the urge to go to western europe. Look at what happened in Poland and the other new member states. No major deluge of eastern europeans flooding us as many anti-EU parties claimed, yet more baseless attempts at creating mass hysteria disproven. You really shouldn't buy into stuff like that this much, bad for your heart.

[Bordoy 0]

err you are aware that the members of the house of commons are freely and generally elected representatives of the people, aren't you?

Yes actually. So they have a right to remove them?

[Bordoy 0]

Supah is 25, doubt he went to school last week.

Well the current actual rate of asylum seekers or immigrants, the white british person will possibly be a minority by 2040ish, but obviuosly things will change for the better hopefully as more people become aware of the problem.

NationMaster This is not even affiliated with the goverment or Daily Mail.

I have done some preparatory classes recently because I intend to start studying to become a history teacher. WW2 is still very much on the curiculum. But apparently now that that claim has been countered you are just going to go with the asylum seeker thing? When countries join the EU their citizens lose the urge to go to western europe. Look at what happened in Poland and the other new member states. No major deluge of eastern europeans flooding us as many anti-EU parties claimed, yet more baseless attempts at creating mass hysteria disproven. You really shouldn't buy into stuff like that this much, bad for your heart.

Just using the website matey. Good luck anywayz. Make sure you do it, and help the citizens of the future live a better life.

[Donnervogel 0]

err you are aware that the members of the house of commons are freely and generally elected representatives of the people, aren't you?

Yes actually. So they have a right to remove them?

Boy... Yes they have. Because the laws that form your constitution (although you don't really have one in britain) say that they have the right to do so. The members of the house of commons represent the people. It's how a representative democracy works. If you have a problem with that you could try to form your own party (once you're 18) or support people that would want to change that. Then you can have your King again to have the right to change your constitution if that is what you like more. But I guess you would prefer a System like in Switzerland where we can demand a binding referendum on constitution changes. But be aware that your country won't be able to act as a global power then because every political decission will be extremly slow because there is always a minority that will demand a referendum and it takes months to prepare one and it can delay laws for years. Trust me I speak out of experience.

The point is you should take advantage of the actions you are offered trough your democratic form of government rather than complaing about the big bad foreigner (EU in this case). It's a hyprocrit reaction and only evading the real problem that lies in your own country. But it's a comfy way of thinking. Unfortunatly reality can be very unfomfortable at times.

Just think how much power the people have in the current britain. If your country would still follow the Magna Charta from 1215 there would be no rights for most people because most people wouldn't even be free. The Magna Charta is just a law that forced the King to share power with other privileged groups in the society. And those groups were a clear minority of the inhabitants of your island. And even your beloved Bill of Rights from 1689 does not give the majority of people any influence on politics. The foundation of your democracy was built later when the constituencies were redistributed and more people got the right to vote (houseowners and so on... I don't remember all of your history)

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well the current actual rate of asylum seekers or immigrants, the white british person will possibly be a minority by 2040ish, but obviuosly things will change for the better hopefully as more people become aware of the problem.

You said in a another threat that you have the dual citizenship as a spanish, and as a britan. Are you saying that your spanish mother/father wouldnt be entitled to move to britain and stay with the whole family?

[Bordoy 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well the current actual rate of asylum seekers or immigrants, the white british person will possibly be a minority by 2040ish, but obviuosly things will change for the better hopefully as more people become aware of the problem.

You said in a another threat that you have the dual citizenship as a spanish, and as a britan. Are you saying that your spanish mother/father wouldnt be entitled to move to britain and stay with the whole family?

all my family live in britain apart from everyone on my dads side. my dad lives here too though.

Dam i meant to put illegal immigrants, as my dads her legally. I had a problem with someone in my old school cus he kpet saying, your dads an illegal immigrant, did he swim over here? etc etc. But because of the EU he can work and live anywhere in the EU which i guess is a good thing about the EU.

[turms 0]

Are you saying then that EU supports illegal immigrants?

[xawery 0]

Bordoy, if I may make a suggestion - read the Economist. This opinion paper's stance towards the EU is generally critical, but fair. Their criticism is well-founded and based on accountable facts. I am not asking you to change your views (as much as I do not agree with them), but it would be a refreshing change if you were to arm yourself with sound knowledge.

On another note: you say that you are Catholic, so I may assume you know the Bible. You should thus be familiar with Matthew, Chapter 7, verse 5: "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." It takes some hubris to criticise another country's educational system, while a survey shows that 11% of British population thinks Hitler was a fictional figure, and 9% thinks the same of Winston Churchill.

Historical awareness is generally falling, but that's because people are idiots, not because of the EU's evil plot to erase GB from everybody's memory.

[Bordoy 0]

Are you saying then that EU supports illegal immigrants?

No, Im just saying it WAS on the increase (dont know current figures) but the number of applicants for asylum is falling.

Quote[/b] ]Bordoy, if I may make a suggestion - read the Economist. This opinion paper's stance towards the EU is generally critical, but fair. Their criticism is well-founded and based on accountable facts. I am not asking you to change your views (as much as I do not agree with them), but it would be a refreshing change if you were to arm yourself with sound knowledge.

On another note: you say that you are Catholic, so I may assume you know the Bible. You should thus be familiar with Matthew, Chapter 7, verse 5: "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." It takes some hubris to criticise another country's educational system, while a survey shows that 11% of British population thinks Hitler was a fictional figure, and 9% thinks the same of Winston Churchill.

Historical awareness is generally falling, but that's because people are idiots, not because of the EU's evil plot to erase GB from everybody's memory.

Those are some stupid people I think i would of got most of them correct. That survey gets abit weird at the end  'Fictional events that we believe did take place

War of the Worlds , Martian invasion - 6 per cent

Battle of Helms Deep , Rings Trilogy - The Two Towers - 3 per cent

Battle of Endor , The Return of the Jedi - 2 per cent

Planet of the Apes , the apes rule Earth - 1 per cent

Battlestar Galactica , the defeat of humanity by cyborgs - 1 per cent '

Ermm King Arthur was a real person, he was a descendant of a Roman which is why is was fighting against the Saxon invasion.

Quote[/b] ]The detractors of the survey’s findings blamed Hollywood and television, which have gained a reputation for skewing historical events to fit audience profiles and lift profit margins.

I think the line of what people believe to be reality and fiction is getting smaller and smaller. And before anyone says this, I 100% don't think this is the EU's fault.

[Badgerboy 0]

Those survey are always complete rubbish. A typical question would be...

'Did the battle of Helms Deep actually occur'

People are not even going to think of Lord of the Rings, so they will answer yes if they are unsure in a historical context (ie Guess). The questions are always loaded, and then you have the people who always try to screw these things up by giving stupid answers.

[Bordoy 0]

Those survey are always complete rubbish. A typical question would be...

'Did the battle of Helms Deep actually occur'

People are not even going to think of Lord of the Rings, so they will answer yes if they are unsure in a historical context (ie Guess). The questions are always loaded, and then you have the people who always try to screw these things up by giving stupid answers.

Yer, if you wanted to do that survey at our college, then about 50% would say it occured. Not because they are stupid but because they having a laugh.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Quote[/b] ]What the hell is wrong with brits? Its a goddamn license plate tag for god's sake.

National pride. Makes Germans uncomfortable since world war two. Pride in the EU is the obvious and much more comfortable option for many Germans it seems but British people just dont esteem so highly pan european ideals. Germany is surrounded by europe whereas the UK is surrounded by the sea which leads everywhere. Its not surprising Brits and Germans have different outlooks. Just look at national interests throughout history, economics and the different focuses and styles of government. Its not possible to blame all on the Sun, or Mail, or Bild for that matter. I dont read any tabloid ,in fact i abhor them. Yet im still quite doubtful (whilst retaining some hope) about many aspects of the european 'project' . But then im one of those annoying people who tend to notice differences (and appreciate them) rather than similarities. The EU seems to tend in some areas toward unnecessary standardisation (eg more than exists between states of america) and i find this a valid and not unthoughtful criticism. I could also add that a lot seems artificial, remote, imposed from above, not of the people, and souless. But i still think the flags pretty cool.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Xawery-

Quote[/b] ]Bollocks. How can someone who openly says he believes homosexuality to be a sin be entrusted with the portfolio of, amongst others, anti-discrimination? That doesn't mean Buttiglione isn't a capable politician though. Just give the man another portfolio.

It has been said before, but obviously not often enough: KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS.

I agree that he was not the most free from potential bias of the possible candidates, having previously held strong opinions on the subject and so his choosing was questionable, but at least all knew what his personal opinions were beforehand (far better that than a closet homophobe).

On the other hand excluding all people with professed religious beliefs seems quite an extreme and intolerant way of keeping the two seperate(in fact its impossible, 'religion out of -government-' would make more sense). We had not been able to judge whether he was able to seperate his personal religious beliefs from his job. Judges are trusted and expected to do it all the time.

Bordoy-

Quote[/b] ]I agree religion should be kept of politics. What if he was an atheist though? Would he be deemed as an homophobic?

Xawery

Quote[/b] ]Nope, because he wouldn't say he thought homosexuality was a sin, simply because there is no such thing as 'sin' for an atheist.

I am an atheist and i say homosexuality is a sin. A Christian sin. It appears to me from my reading of the bible (very open to interpretation and retranslation) and what little i know of early christianity that homosexuality would be considered such by most of the community of believers at the time just after christ and certainly by Jews before him (as well as throughout almost all the community of believers throughout the Christian churches history).

However, Jesus is also reputed to have said 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' .I dont believe homosexuality is wrong. It is possible to maintain that something is immoral and yet not illegal and to agree with such a situation.

Xawery-

Quote[/b] ]If, under the above scenario, he would say he thought homsexuality was wrong , he certainly wouldn't fit this portfolio either. It's not about religion, but about wrong beliefs. Because yes, condemning homosexuality as a 'sin' is a wrong belief. And if that belief happens to stem from one's religion, well, it says all the more about the religion, doesn't it?

No its not, its about reading and interpreting the bible and being truthful about its pronouncements. Its not as a christian necessarily a wrong belief to think that homosexuality is a sin (,sin being a christian concept divorced from secular law). And there are after all rather a lot of Christians in the EU at the moment (at least supposed christians).  But it is a wrong act to persecute a homosexual person. And actions are more important than held opinions. Thats my opinion.

As a non-christian, yes it does say something about christianity though.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]What the hell is wrong with brits? Its a goddamn license plate tag for god's sake.

National pride. Makes Germans uncomfortable since world war to. Pride in the EU is the obvious and much more comfortable option for many Germans it seems but British people just dont esteem so highly pan european ideals. Germany is surrounded by europe whereas the UK is surrounded of the european 'project' . But then im one of th by the sea which leads everywhere. Its not surprising Brits and Germans have different outlooks. Just look at national interests throughout history, economics and the different focuses and styles of government. Its not possible to blame all on the Sun, or Mail, or Bild for that matter. I dont read any tabloid ,in fact i abhor them. Yet im still quite doubtful (whilst retaining some hope) about many aspectsose annoying people who tend to notice differences (and appreciate them) rather than similarities. The EU seems to tend in some areas toward unnecessary standardisation (eg more than exists between states of america) and i find this a valid and not unthoughtful criticism. I could also add that a lot seems artificial, remote, imposed from above, not of the people, and souless. But i still think the flags pretty cool.

The difference is that the german view of europe is perceived as progressive by the world and the british anti-internationalism is considered as an useless old sentiment often personified by soccer hools abroad or cheap tourists with "England" jerseys.

And dont give me this Bushism to call the british attitude patriotism. In reality it is the opposite, a british minority complex that sharing, exchanging and trading with other nations would make a brit loose his identity. Interaction is evil. It is this old comical perception that joining the EU means being "ruled" by the Krauts or the frogs. Lets admit it, 90% of all the anti-europeanism in the UK is builds on the most simplistic imagery of prejudice and national stereotyping.

Maybe you havent noticed. Even though englands economy is doing well right now noone is looking up to you. The german model of gaining respect after 1945 didnt work for you, how come? Well being british means being anti-progressive. You are and will remain an outsider to all people that believe in a common marketplace called europe. Conservatism is not a value as far as politics are concerned, in your heads you need to go a long way to reach the 21st century.

We know that the current stage of the european union is anything but perfect. So what? We are in the development phase.

I think the UK is an important part of the european culture and essential to the economy BUT currently it is slowing down the process.

As far as german patriotism is concerned... well I proudly call myself german but I definetly have NO sense of superiority, I dont believe god blesses only my country, and I dont believe that my culture will dissapear if I interact with others.

[xawery 0]

Ah, this warrants a reply.

Quote[/b] ]I agree that he was not the most free from potential bias of the possible candidates, having previously held strong opinions on the subject and so his choosing was questionable, but at least all knew what his personal opinions were beforehand (far better that than a closet homophobe).

In what way should that lead to a different treatment of Buttiglione? "Hey, you're open about your bigoted opinions, so it's ok, you can stay"? I don't think so.

Quote[/b] ]On the other hand excluding all people with professed religious beliefs seems quite an extreme and intolerant way of keeping the two seperate(in fact its impossible, 'religion out of -government-' would make more sense). We had not been able to judge whether he was able to seperate his personal religious beliefs from his job. Judges are trusted and expected to do it all the time.

I quite agree, but this is not about excluding all people with professed religious beliefs. This is about preventing someone from achieving a position where he is supposed to protect the interests of those he deems morally wrong. Furthermore, we certainly can judge about his ability to seperate his personal beliefs from the job. Do you think someone who has helped found Communione e Liberazione, the ultra-conservative group tasked with campaigning against the secularisation of Italian and European society, is going to ignore his values?

Quote[/b] ]I am an atheist and i say homosexuality is a sin. A Christian sin. It appears to me from my reading of the bible (very open to interpretation and retranslation) and what little i know of early christianity that homosexuality would be considered such by most of the community of believers at the time just after christ and certainly by Jews before him (as well as throughout almost all the community of believers throughout the Christian churches history).

However, Jesus is also reputed to have said 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' .I dont believe homosexuality is wrong. It is possible to maintain that something is immoral and yet not illegal and to agree with such a situation.

Whether you as an atheist acknowledge homosexuality as a sin is completely irrelevant, because the notion of sin, as used by the Christians, does not exist for an atheist. The point is that the concept of sin is a very pregnant one for a Catholic; it is something that will doom you to eternal suffering. Having read that and bearing Buttiglione's past in mind, please reassess his statement. You want someone who believes that homosexuality is immoral and will make you burn in hell to head the office tasked inter alia with protecting homosexuals from discrimination? It's a bizarre paradox.

Also, you claim it is possible to deem something immoral and yet not illegal. This is not the point. Aside from the fact that the whole suggestion of making a sexual preference illegal is ludicrous, this mindset assumes that there are only two possible options: something is either legal or illegal. But that is not the point! The commissioner for Justice, Freedom and Security is also supposed to take steps against discrimination, including discrimination against gender and sexual preference. How can you expect someone with Buttiglione's past and views to act proactively against such discrimination? This matter isn't black and white like the legal-illegal situation, so it would prove very hard to evaluate Buttiglione's performance. This would be the kind of ambiguity that is totally unacceptable.

Quote[/b] ]No its not, its about reading and interpreting the bible and being truthful about its pronouncements. Its not as a christian necessarily a wrong belief to think that homosexuality is a sin (,sin being a christian concept divorced from secular law). And there are after all rather a lot of Christians in the EU at the moment (at least supposed christians).  But it is a wrong act to persecute a homosexual person. And actions are more important than held opinions. Thats my opinion.

You can think or believe whatever you like, you may believe that the moon is made of cheese or that there is a hell with a devil in it, shovelling coals into a furnace. That is not the point. The point is that when you hold beliefs that are at odds with the law, you cannot be entrusted with a function which is supposed to uphold that law, especially if there is no clear way of holding you accountable for your actions (as explained above).

In sum, Buttiglione may be a competent administrator, but granting him this position would be imprudent, unwise and an unwarranted endangerment of a secular system.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Albert Schweizer -

Quote[/b] ]The difference is that the german view of europe is perceived as progressive by the world and the british anti-internationalism is considered as an useless old sentiment often personified by soccer hools abroad or cheap tourists with "England" jerseys.

This is what is known in the vernacular as a stereotype. How many million football hooligan voters would you say there are in the UK? And are we to judge the progressiveness of Deutschland by the actions of a shameful few as well? There are a lot of people who dont like to do too much thinking but that is as true of the UK only as of anywhere else. People get information from the media, that is also not UK exclusive, the UK tabloids are terrible yet they are not the exclusive repositories of EU skepticism.

Quote[/b] ]And dont give me this Bushism to call the british attitude patriotism. In reality it is the opposite, a british minority complex that sharing, exchanging and trading with other nations would make a brit loose his identity. Interaction is evil. It is this old comical perception that joining the EU means being "ruled" by the Krauts or the frogs. Lets admit it, 90% of all the anti-europeanism in the UK is builds on the most simplistic imagery of prejudice and national stereotyping.

I dont think trading is something the British have historically been afraid of, in fact it has been a hallmark of Britishness to go around -the world- trading (which incidentally led to an empire with which there has been a profound cultural exchange). You even seem forced to acknoweledge this in your portrayal of the 'comic stereotype', not of trade-phobia but instead 'foreign rule phobia'. Also the influence of India and the caribbean would seem to argue against a lack of cultural sharing or exchanging in the UK.

Quote[/b] ]Maybe you havent noticed. Even though englands economy is doing well right now noone is looking up to you. The german model of gaining respect after 1945 didnt work for you, how come? Well being british means being anti-progressive. You are and will remain an outsider to all people that believe in a common marketplace called europe. Conservatism is not a value as far as politics are concerned, in your heads you need to go a long way to reach the 21st century.

If an economy is doing well there are always people looking up to it. Economically,people in the developing world still look up to the US even though politically it is so profoundly unpopular.

The German model of 'gaining respect' (in whose eyes?) didnt work or was not applicable for many and various reasons but amongst them: (A) divided into sectors Germany it seems had little else to focus on but the dream of prosperity whereas Britain was massively burdened and worried by an overextended and costly empire (B), Rightly or wrongly the British did not feel they had lost the worlds respect (in fact there was a brief flourishing of pride in the 1950s before the British empire decolonised). I am not an especially great fan or proponent of national pride, yet in moderation i dont see it as necessarily harmful. It can even be helpful. I dont think most British people mind being seen as outsiders in europe if there is a reasonable economy and good trading relationships.

Conservatism is not a value as far as politics is concerned? I think i must have misunderstood you.

Quote[/b] ]We know that the current stage of the european union is anything but perfect. So what? We are in the development phase.

I think the UK is an important part of the european culture and essential to the economy BUT currently it is slowing down the process.

If its anything but perfect then why is it regarded as heresy rather than mere pragmatism to want to hold back or wait and see? Yes we Brits and especially English are a slow lot politically. It takes an age for things to change, thats our system and despite problems it has meant national stability for a long time.

Change is necessary, but its only positive (and so advisable) when change is for the better. If British people arent happy in the EU then let us leave or leave us on the fringe. We will probably join in and play the game eventually, so its not worth worrying about either way. And 'stupid brit hooligan' stereotypes are no more helpful than seeing the EU as some vast neo napoleonic /germanic/ socialist conspiracy to destroy Britain with petty legislation and kafka-esque bureaucracy.

Quote[/b] ]As far as german patriotism is concerned... well I proudly call myself german but I definetly have NO sense of superiority, I dont believe god blesses only my country, and I dont believe that my culture will dissapear if I interact with others.

Then german national progressiveness and idealism is not held to be superior to British political conservatism? As for your culture, it will disappear as it is altered ineradicably when it interacts with others. The most persistent and homogeneous cultures are those isolated from outside influences. However, those are also the most seemingly anachronistic. Who is to say what is better or more valid? Obviously union seems like the future. But that doesnt by definition make it better (unless you view history as an inevitably positive progression). I dont.

[xawery 0]

While I generally agree with Albert, I have to agree with ITYJW's criticism of Albert's post. It is rather ironic to see someone critcise stereotyping by employing sweeping generalisations.

Nevertheless, there are some flaws in that critque which I would like to point out.

Quote[/b] ]Then german national progressiveness and idealism is not held to be superior to British political conservatism? As for your culture, it will disappear as it is altered ineradicably when it interacts with others.

First of all, Albert wrote he didn't believe the German culture to be superior. The national progressiveness and political conservatism you speak of are not part of a nation's culture - they are simply terms to denote the current political climate (looking back, national progressiveness can hardly be called a characterising feature of the German culture).

Second, interaction with other cultures leading to the eradication of one's own is one of the most often repeated and most heavily flawed arguments. It assumes that culture is static which it obiously is not. There is this general misconception that British culture has managed to escape foreign influences over the years by clinging on to the 'sweet isolation'. This is however a complete illusion. Centuries of colonising and being the world's trade have ensured a constant influence of other cultures. This supposedly idiosyncratic British culture you hold so dear is an aggregate of outward influences, just like any other culture. Live with it.

Another aspect which I find to be very characteristic of conservatives is that to protect their values and traditions (which obviously aren't shared by the whole of the population) they want to shield the society from influences from without. I find this approach extremely lazy and arrogant. If you are so afraid of losing your culture, promote it, fight for it! Organise and support exhibitions, history workshops, poetry readings, what have you. Be proactive. This reactionary complaint about 'furriners contaminating our culture' is nothing short of infuriating. You cannot escape the trend of globalisation, and by this I mean the increasing interaction between nations and cultures. To truly isolate oneself you would have to become some kind of Taliban.

And just to make one thing clear - I am extremely fond of the British culture and the fruits it has borne. The literature, the poetry - the English tongue is one of the most fascinating and -ironically, considering this discussion- one of the most eclectic languages out there. This is exactly why I find the passivity of the British culture's supposed protectors to be so distressing.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]How many million football hooligan voters would you say there are in the UK? And are we to judge the progressiveness of Deutschland by the actions of a shameful few as well?

I am not judging the progressiveness of the british people in general but of those that are generally anti-european.

A large percentage of their slogans against europe do not build on economical arguments but on pure ignorance and nationalism.

Quote[/b] ]People get information from the media, that is also not UK exclusive, the UK tabloids are terrible yet they are not the exclusive repositories of EU skepticism.

Scepticism is okay, Ranting isnt!

Quote[/b] ]dont think trading is something the British have historically been afraid of, in fact it has been a hallmark of Britishness to go around -the world- trading

It has been a hallmark of the Dutch!

The brits just like the french, spaniards and portugese usually shipped most goods homewards.

Quote[/b] ]which incidentally led to an empire with which there has been a profound cultural exchange

Imperialism?! nah! My friend this is the wrong approach to "exchange" and "interact"!

Quote[/b] ] I dont think most British people mind being seen as outsiders in europe if there is a reasonable economy and good trading relationships

If this is the argumentation of not participating in the EU, then fine. But generally it is not. Usually it is the old "I dont want to sit next to a german and a french all having equal rights!". It is the old anxiety of people having power over the UK. The anxiety of a political "hostile-takeover"

[Bordoy 0]

Quote[/b] ]A large percentage of their slogans against europe do not build on economical arguments but on pure ignorance and nationalism.

I dont think that it is ignorance. what it is, is that British people like being British (unless they're part of scottish devolution), they don't want to be known as a European. Our Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown, had five test for the Euro, but Euro didn't pass them so thats why the UK isn't currently part of EuroLand.

Gordon Brown also put the UK's economy before his own ambitions to be Prime Minister, as you may or may not be aware.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]that British people like being British,  they don't want to be known as a European.

Oh okay.. ! Thats quite an argument! You convinced me!