International Politics Thread

[Panda-PL- 0]

"Modern man" is someone with acces to uncensored internet.

Of course the possibility of someone being willingfully ignorant and making efforts to remain ignorant didn't cross my mind.

Who says I deny the M-R pact? It's a legitimate non-aggression pact between to countries. Countries with friendly relations don't need such pacts.

The pact had a secret protocole which was a treaty on how would Stalin and Hitler divide Europe after they win the war. Funny how you say you have no misconceptions and then follow it with misconception.

Is wikipedia blocked where you live or you simply ignored the document I posted?

Communist Russia and Nazi 3rd Reich were allies untill winter campaign.

Quote[/b] ]I don't see anything wrong with the actions in Katyn either.

Where are the mass graves of russian soldiers? Or will you say we dropped them all into a volcano or something?

The thing about mass murders is that you can never get rid of evidence (as proven by your case, not that NKVD didn't try to). Nonexistence of bodies is proof enougth the crime never happened. Archeologists have discovered genocides commited by ancient Roman Empire.

The burden of proof is on you.

And I also have to mention I see something wrong with Pilsudski's way of governing the country prior to WW2. Which makes me wonder what kind of human are you if such atrocity as Katyn is "nothing wrong" for you.

Luckly not all communists are stalinists. However just like neo-nazism has made a great comeback in Germany and Russia (irony) stalinims won't go away either.

[Second 0]

Quote[/b] ]Okay... Would you then be against Soviet union too for red finns? You see "red finns" fought side-by-side with "white finns" during Winter War 1939-40. Seems like they had found their worker's paradise already. Maybe you should consider too  

It's funny what you say about white side being slavers and all... Where are the marks of their whip's? Do you care to explain me?

EDIT: Now you have clearly dropped the ball in my books as well. You speak of things which just are not there. i know the truth enough well, and you doesnt' seem to know it atall.

Are you really that stupid that you think I talk about whipping slave owners when I talk about slavery? That kind of slavery is long gone. However, wage-slavery is the foundation of capitalism. Look that up if you don't know what it means.

If you fight for "your" nation you cease to be red.

it seems that i am, as i don't see this slavery you talk about. I see that people get reward from work done. Those who don't work still get decent living standarts. Secured healthcare and so on. You cant' offer anymore, as you don't afford to offer anymore.

What if those reds just saw what you don't and if they had more wisdom than you? Indeed they said that they are not communists. Many grew out of it, many declared to be socialists not communists. You pretty surely will also when you get older and gain insight. Then you forget (or try to) what you thought in you wild youth... Dont' worry: that happens. We had alot of those back in 60s 70s and 80s, now they are happy members of "wage-slavery" society.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]Spokesperson can't you stop america from being to capitalistic?

Yeah, tomorrow.

Quote[/b] ]Is wikipedia blocked where you live or you simply ignored the document I posted?

No, but free independent thinking seems to be on your end of the line.

Besides, what about those non-existent CIA-terror camps in Poland? You have a nice government that shines US boots for some zloty each. And all those church-going people. Too bad it's that hard now that people have to resort to alcoholism and religion to make their problems away for a moment.

Quote[/b] ]Where are the mass graves of russian soldiers? Or will you say we dropped them all into a volcano or something?

Do you have any idea what poles did in Russia during the civil war? What about the Polish-Soviet war?

Quote[/b] ]if such atrocity as Katyn is "nothing wrong" for you.

I really don't feel sorry for that kind of people.

Quote[/b] ]it seems that i am, as i don't see this slavery you talk about. I see that people get reward from work done. Those who don't work still get decent living standarts. Secured healthcare and so on. You cant' offer anymore, as you don't afford to offer anymore.

The technical difference between modern and old slavery is that earlier you knew when you worked for the owner and when you worked for yourself, now you don't as easily. The old slave naturally put "most" of his time in working for the slave owner ("most" because it's all minus the time he spent for producing values that matched the value of his food), the serf worked for the landowner say 3 days a week, 4 days for himself. Today the work isn't split that way. You work a day and say 3/8 of it is when you produce values that match your wage, material costs etc. The division of time isn't noticeable. You can't see it with your eyes. The owner doesn't say, stop, now you work for your own. But it's there if you analyze it.

I suggest you to read about Wage-Slavery and Surplus Value on wikipedia for starters.

It isn't about standards of living. Slaves are still slaves if they live comfortable lives. It's a question of power.

Many people from the 50ies and on who once were socialists turned into socialists because it was a trend back in 68, a kind of fashion. They just followed the herd. Not better than you liberals. A lot of those who actually understood socialism keep their opinions to this day. It has nothing to do with age, as long as you have acquired the ability to think. Most people never do.

[Panda-PL- 0]

Spokesperson, do you make any claims at all???

All I can see is you first making false claims and then when shown you are a lier you try to change subject and resort to ad-hominum attacks.

No sources.

Quote[/b] ]Besides, what about those non-existent CIA-terror camps in Poland?

For them to be true:

-CIA would have to prove to be extreamly unprofessional.

-Polish authorities would have to be extreamly professional.

Which contradicts the true picture of things.

Funny how high-ranking CIA officers would reveal them, given how evil CIA is in your eyes.

The list of our agents in Afghanistan was revealed, the list of intelligence contacts was declassified, the confidential behind-the-scene details of US-polish negotiations of missile defences were leaked.

Had thoose camps ever existed they would be used in political fights in Poland, just like the missile defense system was.

I don't see how alcohole has anything to do with the issue, other than it would obviously make it even harder to keep a secret if goverment officials really were alcoholics.

And surely going to church is evil, we kill babies on the altar, didn't you know?

Quote[/b] ]Do you have any idea what poles did in Russia during the civil war? What about the Polish-Soviet war?

Do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War#See_also

Wikipedia doesn't. Your sources please?

Durring the battle of Warsaw in 1918 in short the boshevick forces were stopped on their march across the Europe.

Again, your sources?

Quote[/b] ]I really don't feel sorry for that kind of people.

I think you're just further dehumanising yourself...

Wikipedia:

Quote[/b] ]Those who died at Katyn included an admiral, two generals, 24 colonels, 79 lieutenant colonels, 258 majors, 654 captains, 17 naval captains, 3,420 NCOs, seven chaplains, three landowners, a prince, 43 officials, 85 privates, and 131 refugees. Also among the dead were 20 university professors (including Stefan Kaczmarz); 300 physicians; several hundred lawyers, engineers, and teachers; and more than 100 writers and journalists as well as about 200 pilots. In all, the NKVD executed almost half the Polish officer corps.

Surely, all of them were guilty of something?

300 physicians? They probably cured someone...?

20 professors? Hundrets of Lawyers, engineers, writers, Journalists? What were their crimes I wonder?

Quote[/b] ]No, but free independent thinking seems to be on your end of the line.

Quote[/b] ]I suggest you to read about Wage-Slavery and Surplus Value on wikipedia for starters.

[Baff1 0]

But if you want to keep fighting for the queen, religion, race, nation and now the corporations, then go ahead. It's your choice.

I fight for them, they fight for me. We fight together.

We all have a common goal.

Freedom.

Freedom from people like you.

You are slavery. You are facism. You are injustice. You are ignorance. You are repression.

You are the enemy of progress. The advocate of suffering and misery.

You will not start any revolution, because no one will ever follow you.

You will not fight for what you believe in because you are a coward.

[ShadowY 0]

Strange that dates and facts get mixed up...are you all re-writing history?

[-Snafu- 77]

What?

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]For them to be true:

-CIA would have to prove to be extreamly unprofessional.

-Polish authorities would have to be extreamly professional.

Which contradicts the true picture of things.

Bullshit. False alternatives, and false assertions.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....05.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7581143.stm

So according to the bourgeois Council of Europe the boot lickers in Poland had secret jails in Poland between 2003-2005.

Quote[/b] ]And surely going to church is evil, we kill babies on the altar, didn't you know?  

Religion is an infantile disease.

Quote[/b] ]Surely, all of them were guilty of something?

300 physicians? They probably cured someone...?

20 professors? Hundrets of Lawyers, engineers, writers, Journalists? What were their crimes I wonder?

Sure, there's nothing strange with that. Russians didn't go into towns and shoot random people. Those people were reactionaries or fascists who resisted the socialist advance.

Quote[/b] ]Do you?  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War#See_also

Wikipedia doesn't. Your sources please?

Durring the battle of Warsaw in 1918 in short the boshevick forces were stopped on their march across the Europe.

Again, your sources?

My source is the page you linked me to.

There you see the polish involvment in the Russian civil war.

Here's another:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....vil_War

More than 12000 poles fighting against democracy on the side of the royalists, capitalists and land owners against the revolutionaries. What were they doing there? Why did they take Minsk and Kiev? And what's the problem if the Red Army pushes them back to Warsaw?

Quote[/b] ]I fight for them, they fight for me. We fight together.

We all have a common goal.

Freedom.

Freedom from people like you.

You are slavery. You are facism. You are injustice. You are ignorance. You are repression.

You are the enemy of progress. The advocate of suffering and misery.

You will not start any revolution, because no one will ever follow you.

You will not fight for what you believe in because you are a coward.

And my goal is freedom from your kind of people who rely on queens, capitalists, religion, nationalism, races etc. Those are just issues that the ruling class uses to unite the oppressed classes to fight for them instead of against them.

Right now there's no revolutionary base in the country I live in, but some day we'll have a socialist system here too.

[MehMan 0]

If your socialist system comes from votes as in Spain and not by force and a dictatorship like in Russia I'd be willing to accept it. If there's a whacko as big as Stalin who wants me to join his socialist dream or die, well, I'd rather not. If it can be voted in, like Spain, well it's more than welcome then.

[Spokesperson 0]

Spain is a capitalist country with a liberal government (even if they call themselves social democrats). But yes, I support voting for your government, assuming fair conditions. I.e. when there's one vote per person and not one vote per dollar.

[echo1 0]

Right now there's no revolutionary base in the country I live in,

I'm sure all of us are dying to know - which country is that?

[scubaman3D 0]

Religion is an infantile disease.

This belief of yours is enough to ensure that communism will never succede on this earth. Ever.

Even Chavez is a 'devout' Catholic, who uses religion as part of his propaganda. He calls the US "The Great Satan" - strangely similar to the propaganda used by Osama and his ilk..

You admire Chazez, yes? You have already spoken favorably towards him.

@ ch_123

He's not going to tell us. Doing so would only serve to discredit his opinions. I have already given my analysis that he's near native, if not a native speaker of English and speaks British English - so he's definatley not from the US. I'd even venture to say he's not from anywhere in north or south america, since he's not in a timezone near me.

He's probably in a westernized, commonwealth state - which means he's probably an overprivelaged kid with liberal guilt and too much time on his hands.

[Second 0]

Quote[/b] ]it seems that i am, as i don't see this slavery you talk about. I see that people get reward from work done. Those who don't work still get decent living standarts. Secured healthcare and so on. You cant' offer anymore, as you don't afford to offer anymore.

The technical difference between modern and old slavery is that earlier you knew when you worked for the owner and when you worked for yourself, now you don't as easily. The old slave naturally put "most" of his time in working for the slave owner ("most" because it's all minus the time he spent for producing values that matched the value of his food), the serf worked for the landowner say 3 days a week, 4 days for himself. Today the work isn't split that way. You work a day and say 3/8 of it is when you produce values that match your wage, material costs etc. The division of time isn't noticeable. You can't see it with your eyes. The owner doesn't say, stop, now you work for your own. But it's there if you analyze it.

I suggest you to read about Wage-Slavery and Surplus Value on wikipedia for starters.

It isn't about standards of living. Slaves are still slaves if they live comfortable lives. It's a question of power.

Many people from the 50ies and on who once were socialists turned into socialists because it was a trend back in 68, a kind of fashion. They just followed the herd. Not better than you liberals. A lot of those who actually understood socialism keep their opinions to this day. It has nothing to do with age, as long as you have acquired the ability to think. Most people never do.

Yes it could be seen as question of power, but as said already system you support (well atleast socialist ones) were not giving power to people, people was pretty much just herd.

I'm not saing that all democratic-capitalistic-market economic-liberal-nations/super nations are any better when it comes to the Floc, the Herd, the Cattle With Right To Vote. The things same happens everywhere, leaders lead and cattle has some rights... That is how the play goes and has gone forever, even in socialism and therefore communism.

About Herd.. You like to use that word when it comes to "working class". As i said earlier already: you fancy to belong into ruling class of this your dream society. And your dream it's just dream, nothing more. Socialism and by that communism has failed, they had their high point in world just like fasicsm. All there is left are extremist political groups which leaders motives aren't any different from other politics. And few True Believers. And some small countries. Not much. You can just miss back into past, while i and rest of the gang keep our eyes and minds focues in democratic-capitalistic-market economic-liberal future    

With love  

[Panda-PL- 0]

He's probably in a westernized, commonwealth state - which means he's probably an overprivelaged kid with liberal guilt and too much time on his hands.

Omg. I forgot that possibility.

"Ah the poor, the injustice of the world... Hold on a second, I have someone on second line... oh hi mom..."

He did spoke of Che yet? Lol.

Another possibility is he's just a plant payed to divert the topic from Georgia.

@ CIA Prison: the one swiss senator in question saw evidence and heard witnesses. I think hallucination theory is sufficiently supported in this case.

Ressurection of Christ is tenfolds better documented than prison camp in Szymany.

Funny how you would bother with Al Quaida members. You are a hypocrite. What's with Guantanamo? That's Cuba.

Ok, so now we're rolling:

Spokesperson things it is right to put a bullet in your head if you are not a revolutionary communist (or maybe even Stalinist, since he seems to have some nationalist issues).

Why the hell did you argue at all, dude? Why did you pretend to be on some kind of moral higround when all you say is you opt for killing your political rivals.

You've claimed they have commited atrocities while in fact you now admitt they were taking part in military campaign. That itself is no crime.

And once again: they were innocent people who just happened NOT TO SHARE your narrow minded and bigoted view of the world.

I really regret these forums have no rules against promoting political violence, or against promoting Stalinist/Fascist ideas.

But i think if you say a few more sentences about relligion you might get a warning. Because your views are also radical on this subject.

On the other hand allowing you to make a fool of yourself might have a good educational effect. Pretty much likie with the creationist crowd it's best to let you speak and not interrupt you.

[echo1 0]

Has anyone seen this? I'm confused now, what was this "war of independence" about anyway?

[Baff1 0]

And my goal is freedom from your kind of people who rely on queens, capitalists, religion, nationalism, races etc. Those are just issues that the ruling class uses to unite the oppressed classes to fight for them instead of against them.

Right now there's no revolutionary base in the country I live in, but some day we'll have a socialist system here too.

Your goal is arguement.

And freedom from common sense and disregard for the mutual benefit of mankind is a price you are willing to pay to get it.

As long as you are oppressed, the world is a happier place.

You aren't revolutionary, you are reactionary. An antagonist not an anarchist.

[Baff1 0]

Has anyone seen this? I'm confused now, what was this "war of independence" about anyway?

South Ossetia has been seeking re-unification with Russia ever since it was dissolved into Georgia.

It's independance was only ever going to be the first step.

[scubaman3D 0]

Has anyone seen this? I'm confused now, what was this "war of independence" about anyway?

South Ossetia has been seeking re-unification with Russia ever since it was dissolved into Georgia.

It's independance was only ever going to be the first step.

I find it funny that Russia has previously voted on the UN Security Council to affirm that the region belongs to Georgia.

Now that they stand to gain more politically, they are reversing their position.

This is nothing more than Russia taking internationally recognized, sovereign territory from Georgia by force.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]Even Chavez is a 'devout' Catholic, who uses religion as part of his propaganda. He calls the US "The Great Satan" - strangely similar to the propaganda used by Osama and his ilk..

You admire Chazez, yes? You have already spoken favorably towards him.

Yes, I think Chavez is one of the best contemporary politicians. Sure, he's religious, that's bad. But he's still a progressive force in Venezuela and the world. If one thing is bad it doesn't mean the rest has to be bad.

The Osama parallell is stupid.

Quote[/b] ]you fancy to belong into ruling class of this your dream society.

Who doesn't? I'm of the opinion that the working class should be the ruling class.

That should be in the interests of all who aren't part of the current ruling class.

Quote[/b] ]And your dream it's just dream, nothing more. Socialism and by that communism has failed, they had their high point in world just like fasicsm. All there is left are extremist political groups which leaders motives aren't any different from other politics. And few True Believers. And some small countries. Not much. You can just miss back into past, while i and rest of the gang keep our eyes and minds focues in democratic-capitalistic-market economic-liberal future

Communism has never existed, by definition. Socialism grows all over the world. Just in the last few years important parts of South America announced the beginning of a socialism for the 21st century. In Nepal the maoists turned their country into a republic after ten years of civil war, then they won the elections and introduced a liberal democracy. In Cyprus and Moldova socialists (you would call them communists) recently won the elections and now rule the countries. In europe, especially in the east the anti-capitalists gain ground at a rapid speed. Things are far from over and they never will as long as there is capitalism. Marxism is the science about society and its ties to economy and history. There are solid facts, observations, theory that supports the socialist view of the world.

Quote[/b] ]Funny how you would bother with Al Quaida members. You are a hypocrite. What's with Guantanamo? That's Cuba.

There you fell right into a trap. Why? Because your school and the media of your country are liberal. There's only lies or parts of the truth in the information you receive. The US more or less occupies Guantanamo without the consent of the cuban government. They are there and the cubans can't do anything about it or there'll likely be a full scale war. It will give the US a PR reason to attack (as their soldiers are based there).

Quote[/b] ]Spokesperson things it is right to put a bullet in your head if you are not a revolutionary communist (or maybe even Stalinist, since he seems to have some nationalist issues).

No, I don't.

Quote[/b] ]I find it funny that Russia has previously voted on the UN Security Council to affirm that the region belongs to Georgia.

Now that they stand to gain more politically, they are reversing their position.

This is nothing more than Russia taking internationally recognized, sovereign territory from Georgia by force.

It might have to do with the fact that Georgia attacked the province and the russian troops there?

[-Snafu- 77]

Quote[/b] ]And your dream it's just dream, nothing more. Socialism and by that communism has failed, they had their high point in world just like fasicsm. All there is left are extremist political groups which leaders motives aren't any different from other politics. And few True Believers. And some small countries. Not much. You can just miss back into past, while i and rest of the gang keep our eyes and minds focues in democratic-capitalistic-market economic-liberal future  

Communism has never existed, by definition. Socialism grows all over the world. Just in the last few years important parts of South America announced the beginning of a socialism for the 21st century. In Nepal the maoists turned their country into a republic after ten years of civil war, then they won the elections and introduced a liberal democracy. In Cyprus and Moldova socialists (you would call them communists) recently won the elections and now rule the countries. In europe, especially in the east the anti-capitalists gain ground at a rapid speed. Things are far from over and they never will as long as there is capitalism. Marxism is the science about society and its ties to economy and history. There are solid facts, observations, theory that supports the socialist view of the world.

He never said communism existed. Read more carefully. Those nations that are now supposedly socialists are parts of the world that nobody cares greatly about. Most you have listed have much lower standards than nations like Canada, US, Germany etc.

Marxism is not a science for the last fcuking time. Stop passing your own thoughts as fact. According to the Encarta Encyclopedia it is:

"The political and economic theories of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels."

And wiki:

"Marxism is the political philosophy and practice derived from the work of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels."

[scubaman3D 0]

The Osama parallell is stupid.

Quote[/b] ]I find it funny that Russia has previously voted on the UN Security Council to affirm that the region belongs to Georgia.

Now that they stand to gain more politically, they are reversing their position.

This is nothing more than Russia taking internationally recognized, sovereign territory from Georgia by force.

It might have to do with the fact that Georgia attacked the province and the russian troops there?

Osama calls the US "The great Satan". So does Chavez.

I find the similarities between them curious.

And the war was Russia's fault, more so than Georgia.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]Those nations that are now supposedly socialists are parts of the world that nobody cares greatly about. Most you have listed have much lower standards than nations like Canada, US, Germany etc.

Of course. They were the backyards of western society. Exploited for hundreds of years by the west, now that time is up. No more slavery and oppression that made westerners able to buy products at dirt prices. Capitalism breaks at its weakest link.

Quote[/b] ]Marxism is not a science for the last fcuking time. Stop passing your own thoughts as fact. According to the Encarta Encyclopedia it is:

"The political and economic theories of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels."

And wiki:

"Marxism is the political philosophy and practice derived from the work of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels."

Both are wrong, but encarta is more correct here. Wikipedia contradicts itself when it writes about other people's contribution to it. The claim about political practice is nonsense. Marxism is free from opinions, it's no ideology. That's what socialism is for. Scientific socialism is based on marxism.

It seems you'll have to read "Das Kapital" and not wikipedia to understand this. This page will give you some links to the "source" of the wikipedia articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital

Quote[/b] ]Das Kapital (IPA: [das kapiˈtaːl]) (Capital, in the English translation) is an extensive treatise on political economy written in German by Karl Marx and edited in part by Friedrich Engels. The book is a critical analysis of capitalism and its practical economic application and also, in part, a critique of other related theories. Its first volume was published in 1867.

Marxism meets all the requirements of a science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Quote[/b] ]Osama calls the US "The great Satan". So does Chavez.

I find the similarities between them curious.

Yes and both use their mouth to speak. Both don't like the US. Both eat. And Chavez is no us-funded virtual scapegoat.

[echo1 0]

Didn't Marx denounce the cause of "Marxism" before he died? I think it says a lot really...

Quote[/b] ]It might have to do with the fact that Georgia attacked the province and the russian troops there?

Then again, hasn't Russia always been very supportive of the breakaway republics? I think the recent happenings are at best oppurtunism by the Russian government. They say an excuse (albiet not a very good one) to move in and claim parts of Georgia for itself. Out of curiosity, are there any natural resources or othersuch strategic reasons for either side to try and keep a grip on Ossetia?

[Spokesperson 0]

No he didn't, but he didn't want to call himself a marxist. Marxism is a bad name.

Quote[/b] ]Then again, hasn't Russia always been very supportive of the breakaway republics? I think the recent happenings are at best oppurtunism by the Russian government. They say an excuse (albiet not a very good one) to move in and claim parts of Georgia for itself. Out of curiosity, are there any natural resources or othersuch strategic reasons for either side to try and keep a grip on Ossetia?

When did Russia claim Georgian territory? No natural resources that I can think of. Just an important tunnel in S. O.

[scubaman3D 0]

Yes and both use their mouth to speak. Both don't like the US. Both eat. And Chavez is no us-funded virtual scapegoat.

See, I always figured they both spoke out of their asses.

So what's your point?