International Politics Thread

[NoRailgunner 0]

Spokesperson you should seriously take a journey outside your little castle and wooly thoughts.

[Journeyman 0]

We need a 'thunderdome' section here!  

[Mr_Tea 0]

Bush? What do i care for that guy?

I live in Germany, and make my own mind about the world out there.

But Spokesperson seems to be perfectly indoctrinated himself, maybe brainwashed too, so he don`t know about it.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]You are an egotistical 'know it all', you look down on us like we spend our days drooling into cups and that is why most people don't favour you.

There is a reason why I do. Most of you have no clue about politics or history. Yet you have opinions as if you knew it all. There are liberals who know what they talk about, they are few, but they are not on these boards. I would never look down on those, even if I disagreed with them.

Imagine a capitalist with socialist opinions. It isn't rational. Apart from Baff1 (who owns a business and shares in a pipeline or similar) you have no rational interests in this kind of society. Yet you support it like fanatics. Because it's "democratic" or "free"? Or because you are content with what you have? Then who's the egoist?

Bush was just an example, I'm very aware that most of you aren't americans. And it should be quite obvious I'm not talking about the US only. Change Bush to whatever you like that has the same functions like him.

Fine if Americans don't like Bush (yet they vote for him, was it the advertisements or propaganda that made you do that?). But now you're voting for another tyrant. The war-monger McCain who is a lot worse than Bush or Obama who is another idiot. US policies and politics never change as long as the interests of the ruling class are the same, because those are the interests of the US. And the president has to defend them, that's his job. It doesn't matter if there are fascists or nice freedom-loving liberals in the government. There's only a difference when it comes to _words_.

Quote[/b] ]But Spokesperson seems to be perfectly indoctrinated himself, maybe brainwashed too, so he don`t know about it.

The difference between you and me is that I know your political system, the ideologies you might support, and how they work, and I know mine. I can compare.

How can I be brainwashed? 99% of the media is liberal. The state is liberal. The schools are liberal. Everything is liberal. TV-shows, movies and more. When I was a kid I was liberal, I was brainwashed, because I didn't know better. If you grow up in a liberal society you get liberal yourself, just like nobody turns into a buddhist spontaneously in a country full of christians. But for some reasons I developed the ability to think outside the box.

You're the meat of mankind. You burned witches on demand, marched against your class-brothers in other countries and had them killed for phony reasons. But you've always been on the losing side, while the commanders always have won. You've supported all kinds of societies, including slavery and serfdom, with reference to religion, a king, a nation, and now "democracy".

[MehMan 0]

No no no, not worth it.

Damn I'm a spammer.

[Mr_Tea 0]

Quote[/b] ]You are an egotistical 'know it all', you look down on us like we spend our days drooling into cups and that is why most people don't favour you.

There is a reason why I do. Most of you have no clue about politics or history. Yet you have opinions as if you knew it all. There are liberals who know what they talk about, they are few, but they are not on these boards. I would never look down on those, even if I disagreed with them.

Imagine a capitalist with socialist opinions. It isn't rational. Apart from Baff1 (who owns a business and shares in a pipeline or similar) you have no rational interests in this kind of society. Yet you support it like fanatics. Because it's "democratic" or "free"? Or because you are content with what you have? Then who's the egoist?

Bush was just an example, I'm very aware that most of you aren't americans. And it should be quite obvious I'm not talking about the US only. Change Bush to whatever you like that has the same functions like him.

Fine if Americans don't like Bush (yet they vote for him, was it the advertisements or propaganda that made you do that?). But now you're voting for another tyrant. The war-monger McCain who is a lot worse than Bush or Obama who is another idiot. US policies and politics never change as long as the interests of the ruling class are the same, because those are the interests of the US. And the president has to defend them, that's his job. It doesn't matter if there are fascists or nice freedom-loving liberals in the government. There's only a difference when it comes to _words_.

Quote[/b] ]But Spokesperson seems to be perfectly indoctrinated himself, maybe brainwashed too, so he don`t know about it.

The difference between you and me is that I know your political system, the ideologies you might support, and how they work, and I know mine. I can compare.

How can I be brainwashed? 99% of the media is liberal. The state is liberal. The schools are liberal. Everything is liberal. TV-shows, movies and more. When I was a kid I was liberal, I was brainwashed, because I didn't know better. If you grow up in a liberal society you get liberal yourself, just like nobody turns into a buddhist spontaneously in a country full of christians. But for some reasons I developed the ability to think outside the box.

You're the meat of mankind. You burned witches on demand, marched against your class-brothers in other countries and had them killed for phony reasons. But you've always been on the losing side, while the commanders always have won. You've supported all kinds of societies, including slavery and serfdom, with reference to religion, a king, a nation, and now "democracy".

I burned witches?

God dammit, don`t blame for something that happened before my birth, and for something that i condemn the catholic church for.

I´m proud to be a protestant, and not an follower of the pope and his clique of very old man.

[NoRailgunner 0]

brainwashed? indoctrinated? intoxicated?

Use the ability to think outside the box!!

Quote[/b] ]You're the meat of mankind. You burned witches on demand, marched against your class-brothers in other countries and had them killed for phony reasons. But you've always been on the losing side, while the commanders always have won.

[Second 0]

Okay i think it's time for reality check.

Spokesperson sees that he is the Joker, the One Who Sees Things Behind Fog, the Falcon i.e the Truthseer, maybe even as the One Who Leads All.

While those who are against him are just Lambs, the Herd, The Ones Who Are Lowest of All... Yes he, the Spokeperson, sees you as the ugly, dirty and un-educated peasant folk from dark age which has gathered behind village priest and is holding hatches, ropes, torces as it gets closer to Witch (=communist) who knows things better than Priest (=capitalist).

Spokeperson, do you fantasise youself as Stalin or Castro ever?

[turms 0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades

Clearly spokeperson is a person with some problems, but lest we forget that there are serious propaganda teams operating on different forums.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]The difference between you and me is that I know your political system, the ideologies you might support, and how they work, and I know mine. I can compare.

This is blatant untrue. You have repeadetly posted "facts" here in this thread that were untrue. You have no idea of UN mandatories, while you justify russias military actions with exactly those modus operandi which is not only blatant bullshit, but also a blatant lie as there is no justification to unilaterally invade a souvereign country under the UN umbrella without a UN council decision. You want to make it look right and legal but it simply isn´t right and legal. YOu only try to selll your personal version as the ultimate truth while you fail to back up your claims and furthermore simply ignore unpleasant facts if they don´t fit your ideology. That´s a fact. You ignore that journalists critizising the kremlin get killed in numbers, that newspapers and media in russia are under heavy control of the kremlin and controlled by the FSB and people within the kremlin structure that have their very own interests ( read money and power) and control the media output more and more. Right now the media - landscape in Russia is moving backwards, not forward and it´s the Kremlin and it´s people in power who are interested in that and gain from that forced development.

I haven´t heard that journalists in the US, or EU have been killed because they were reporting critical about the government. In russia this happens/ed a lot. You just choose to ignore such things and try to sell us the clean-spirit of communism. I say, you better shut up and troll on if you are not able to debate such things aswell and try to cover up all that "not-so-nice" things as they don´t fit your intentions here.

While we´re at it, the FSB´s role in the Moscow bombings is certainly something you´ve heard about, right ? You also know that the bombings were taken as a reason for a war, right ? You know who was the boss of the FSB at that time, right ? And now you want to tell us stupid guys here that something like that is unthinkable in the georgian - context ?

I say shut up and troll on if you got nothing better to present. Even for a clown you are not funny.

[scubaman3D 0]

Quote[/b] ]Russia is a capitalist country and is therefore shit.

Do me a favor - shut up your dirty mouth, churl. I'd bash you up for such words if we meet in the street...

You can discuss the systems, but saying, that somebody's country is shit is too heavy statement for you, darned revolutioner.

Finally! Something we can agree on

[NSX 8]

Sorry, I won't agree on anything with russophobian.  

[Commando84 0]

Hey calm down people! No need for name calling.

i swear sometimes this place is a duplicate of the world situation between us and russia.

[scubaman3D 0]

Sorry, I won't agree on anything with russophobian.  

I certainly hope you're not talking about me. My wife is Russian and as I have said, I travel there frequently. I have family there. I love the people and the culture.

The food is great too.

And I've seen people like you there...those who can't separate the difference between people and government. I've faced a drunken SU-25 pilot and his buds there and I'm not afraid of some internet chump like you.

You've crossed the line here. I haven't said a single bad word about you and this is your second personal attack against me.

And anyways, saying things like this just makes you look narrow minded - which plays well to the stereotype. :P

[Spokesperson 0]

Second has the best reply this time. He reads with some imagination. When I write about witches I mean a lot of things, not just a witch.

But his interpretation of what "I think I am" is false. I have no such thoughts apart from the way I see you. You're just sheep who follow and think like the rest. And think that's right because a majority thinks so. You think you are free, but that's because nobody has led you to the fences of your field. And nobody ever will as those who lead you, the ruling class, don't profit from it.

People who think themselves are the only people who can be free.

Quote[/b] ]You have repeadetly posted "facts" here in this thread that were untrue.

Ok, good. Tell me and we'll discuss the "facts".

Quote[/b] ]but also a blatant lie as there is no justification to unilaterally invade a souvereign country under the UN umbrella without a UN council decision.

The counter-attack wasn't performed under a UN umbrella. The peace-keepers who were attacked by georgian forces had a CIS-mandate and were there with the consent of the UN.

My support of Russia has nothing to do with ideology. I don't support the government of Russia. I support a country that defends itself, its citizens, and its soldiers on a peace-mission, from US imperialism. Georgia was the aggressor. Georgia was wrong.

But I disliked Georgia before they started to shell civilians. Their government is a neo-liberal puppet regime of the US. One of the main streets is called George W. Bush Avenue, after a visit by him a few years ago. Everything that goes bad for the US-murder regime is something I would toast to. The US government is my enemy.

Quote[/b] ]You ignore that journalists critizising the kremlin get killed in numbers, that newspapers and media in russia are under heavy control of the kremlin and controlled by the FSB and people within the kremlin structure that have their very own interests ( read money and power) and control the media output more and more. Right now the media - landscape in Russia is moving backwards, not forward and it´s the Kremlin and it´s people in power who are interested in that and gain from that forced development.

Journalists have been killed, but do you have any proof that the government is behind that? No? Of course it's bad. And you forget, I don't support what's happening in Russia. I support the USSR. Russian politicians and businessmen are traitors. And the most of the russian people, the sheep, keep smiling. Because the great patriarch says they should.

Quote[/b] ]I haven´t heard that journalists in the US, or EU have been killed because they were reporting critical about the government. In russia this happens/ed a lot. You just choose to ignore such things and try to sell us the clean-spirit of communism. I say, you better shut up and troll on if you are not able to debate such things aswell and try to cover up all that "not-so-nice" things as they don´t fit your intentions here.

There are other ways to handle dissidents in the west. A lot more efficient ways, and nobody ever complains. Oddly enough the parties and the press have the same opinions, with some differences in tax %. And again, where did you get the communist stuff from? They have like 13%. And the parliament has no power in Russia since the Yeltsin coup of 1993. That if something, shows that you are ignorant and don't know the facts.

Quote[/b] ]While we´re at it, the FSB´s role in the Moscow bombings is certainly something you´ve heard about, right ? You also know that the bombings were taken as a reason for a war, right ? You know who was the boss of the FSB at that time, right ? And now you want to tell us stupid guys here that something like that is unthinkable in the georgian - context ?

Of course I've heard about it. And it's likely. But this conflict is completely different. Georgia attacked Tshinvali. Nobody claims that Russians went there and did that. Are all georgian losses in Ossetia russians? Are those tanks in Tshinvali just some shit the Russians put there?

You know, you're just repeating the propaganda your newspapers and your rulers want you to know.

[NSX 8]

Quote[/b] ]And I've seen people like you there...those who can't separate the difference between people and government.

O RLY? Apparently you forgot, that most of russian people support current actions of our goverment. And to your suprise - most people here want our political influence on world arena back.

I'm also defending political course of my country. Country is not just only "people" or "goverment", but a more complex thing, which includes both these parts and numerous others.

People, people...People are the ones, who choose their goverments as they're represent (or at least they promise) their hopes and wishes. This time I don't talk about economics or social sphere, I talk about international politics and Russia's place in it.

And it's obvious that you're against any steps, that'll help Russia to move America from world dominating position (on the example of Russian operation in Georgia, which was also supported by the most of Russian population). And thus I really don't want to have something in common with you. Have your opinion - I'll have mine. But our paths will never cross. Is my explanation polite enough for our touchy american gent?

Quote[/b] ]I'm not afraid of some internet chump like you

Heh, strange, that you're going to defensive stance as I wasn't threatening you and I never named you with words like "chump" or something like that. "Russophobian" could hardly be compared to title you just gave me. I'd agree with "american hater" title in exchange as I'm the one.

And it's really all the same for me, how do you think about me. I know myself and I know, what I cost. Repeated it many times, and will repeat it once more - dog is barking, caravan is moving. So say whatever you like - it just prove my thoughts, that you're a stereotyped redneck yank.

About Su25 pilot...thanks. Another great anecdote. Aren't you, by any chance a constant writer of humor column in newspaper?

[Spokesperson 0]

Very good interview with the Russian commander:

It's evident that Georgia planned this for weeks or months.

Saakashvili promised the Georgian people that he would retake the provinces when he was "elected". He increased his military budget by 500%. That's the largest increase in the world this year.

The Georgians were just waiting for the best moment to attack, when the Russian politicans were on vacation and during OS.

[-Snafu- 77]

Quote[/b] ]There is a reason why I do. Most of you have no clue about politics or history. Yet you have opinions as if you knew it all.

Have a look in the mirror.

[Second 0]

But his interpretation of what "I think I am" is false. I have no such thoughts apart from the way I see you. You're just sheep who follow and think like the rest. And think that's right because a majority thinks so. You think you are free, but that's because nobody has led you to the fences of your field. And nobody ever will as those who lead you, the ruling class, don't profit from it.

If yor not leader (=Shepherd) then your sheep as well. Or it there something else... Herding dog maybe?

I'm sheep, no arguing with that. As long as ruling class makes sure that i'm happy i do not wish to revolt (=escape my pasture). I'm quite happy now.

[Baff1 0]

brainwashed? indoctrinated? intoxicated?

Use the ability to think outside the box!!

Quote[/b] ]You're the meat of mankind. You burned witches on demand, marched against your class-brothers in other countries and had them killed for phony reasons. But you've always been on the losing side, while the commanders always have won.

Unable to think inside the box.

If all of us say the wheel is round, he'll argue.

Speaking for myself only, I've only ever been on the winning side.

Lucky me.

But then I gravitate to that side naturally.

And that's why I'd prefer to ally with Russia in conflicts in that part of the world.

There are great arguments for humanity. Historical greivance aplenty.

Arguments for a New World order or the end of appeasement.

Arguments about culture and political creed.

All of these are relevant and contributary.

But ultimately there is one thing I respect above all things. Power.

On the bus, when 5 guys with guns insult my mother and spit on her, I still respect them.

[Commando84 0]

Hmm i dunno reading NSXr's post its not strange russia wants to be big pimpin and respected on the block again like it was during the cold war.

But sure russia may get some tomatoes thrown at them for going into war now but maybe it will go better later on.

Im wondering why can't russia apply for nato? Is it just old thoughts stopping them from the old hardliner generals or is america that much apposed to that? Hmm maybe now after this georgia thingy but i was thinking before that..

Imo i think Obama should be president cause he seems more soft around the edges so i think he could soften up the relations with the russians rather than old Mcain who would just scream at them.

[Teo 0]

Spokesperson would I be right in saying that you wanted Guba to win in Operation Flashpoint?

[scubaman3D 0]

O RLY? Apparently you forgot, that most of russian people support current actions of our goverment. And to your suprise - most people here want our political influence on world arena back.

People, people...People are the ones, who choose their goverments as they're represent (or at least they promise) their hopes and wishes. This time I don't talk about economics or social sphere, I talk about international politics and Russia's place in it.

Quote[/b] ]I'm not afraid of some internet chump like you

Heh, strange, that you're going to defensive stance as I wasn't threatening you and I never named you with words like "chump" or something like that. "Russophobian" could hardly be compared to title you just gave me. I'd agree with "american hater" title in exchange as I'm the one.

And it's really all the same for me, how do you think about me. I know myself and I know, what I cost. Repeated it many times, and will repeat it once more - dog is barking, caravan is moving. So say whatever you like - it just prove my thoughts, that you're a stereotyped redneck yank.

About Su25 pilot...thanks. Another great anecdote. Aren't you, by any chance a constant writer of humor column in newspaper?

Nice ninja edits - I read your first two edits already.

To respond to your ORIGINAL post.

You threatened Spokesperson in an attempt to intimidate him into silence. You said you would "bash" him. I doubted that this would quell him from responding, and indeed it hasn't.

I just wanted you to be certain that such juvenile remarks will not intimidate me either.

And though I don't appreciate your ongoing little jabs against me personally, I would like to welcome you back to the realm of ideas.

To start with, I agree with you to a point – where people in a free society are [indirectly] responsible for the actions of their government, if they fail to hold their leaders responsible for their bad choices.

In Russia, however, there are a couple things to consider.

First, the people's opinions are very much influenced by the state-run medium. The propaganda that Russian media turns out is shameless in comparison to what you will consider the 'propaganda' of the BBC or CNN.  It's like having every station be FOX news, but worse.  This means that the Russian leader's decisions are routinely defended by the state medium, which portrays world events in such a way to serve their leader's needs. In other words, the truth is less important than public opinion.

The second thing I look at is the presidential elections in Russia. In the lead up to the election, there were various reports of intimidation of opposition candidates and corruption at the polls. In addition, the Russian government slashed the number of visas that would be issued to OSCE monitors. This caused the election monitoring group to cancel their plans to observe the election. I'm not sure how it ended, but I don't think OSCE recognized the election as being legitimate.

By the way, guess what Russia media then said about OSCE: that they were really just a US entity intending to sabotage the election. This is patently absurd and it is not freedom.

Finally, I also look at the disenfranchisement of Russian citizens of the right to vote in gubernatorial elections. Putin is now appointing all of Russia's local governors - something that should never happen. Does the great puppet master (i.e. Putin) really understand at his lofty position in the Kremlin, what the needs at the local level actually are? I think not.

Now do you understand why I feel the government is moving back towards an authoritative system? You think I'm paranoid – but I am just forming an opinion based on what I see being reported from both sides.

Anyways, if you read nothing else of my post, read this:

All that was to say that I don't hold a grudge against the people of Russia. I love the people that I am friends there – despite their personal opinions. Hell, part of me would like to become a dual citizen. I think that Russia has a lot to offer the world – just it would be nice for society there to become more open and free – and how can anybody argue against more openness and freedom?

Oh, and I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the SU25 pilot...

Respond intelligently, or not at all because I'm wasting my time on you, I know.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]As long as ruling class makes sure that i'm happy i do not wish to revolt (=escape my pasture). I'm quite happy now.

But you could have it a lot better, if nobody got richer on your expense.

Quote[/b] ]Spokesperson would I be right in saying that you wanted Guba to win in Operation Flashpoint?

Guba was made to be bad by the developers. It's like asking me to support some bad guy in a movie. Sure, it could be fun/relaxing for a change, as it's fiction.

In the OFP story based on a fictional world, it's evident that the americans + resistance were good, and russians were evil warmongers and trigger-happy mass-murderers.

But nothing is like that in real life. I think ArmA did a great deal to reflect the complexity of a conflict and the propaganda around it, even though the implementation was bad.

[Second 0]

Quote[/b] ]As long as ruling class makes sure that i'm happy i do not wish to revolt (=escape my pasture). I'm quite happy now.

But you could have it a lot better, if nobody got richer on your expense.

Maybe. I won't say that system i live in is perfect. However i can't see how it could be any better. Risks in altering it are too great.