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An old tank and a knife plus an old truck. Nothing out of the ordinary. All those are up for offer and can be bought.

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The Ukrainan people are not supporting the US or NATO. But the puppet-government is. It was installed just like the georgian one was, and backed by millions of US dollars.

Ukrainians Reject NATO, Ponder Socialist System

"Uncle Sam may be far away but his gifts are all around":

Shows a lot of "souvenirs" and captured US-gifts.

There where many puppet-governments installed by Russia, why don`t you speak of them?

Russians never did something wrong, right? Not in the Stalin Era, and not afterwards. There where no masses murdered by an "socialist" regime, and Russians are always right.

Are you by any chance an politics-officer in the Russian Army?

At least your statements sound that way.

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Quote[/b] ]Russians never did something wrong, right? Not in the Stalin Era, and not afterwards. There where no masses murdered by an "socialist" regime, and Russians are always right.

Are you by any chance an politics-officer in the Russian Army?

Yes, they did. Under Stalin (Georgian) and his close friend head of USSR NKVD by the name Beria (Georgian also).  They kill millions they own citizens.

Watch this video (BBC) guy. You will not believe what you see.    

http://pudelek.ru/63-saakashvili-sel-galstuk-v-prjamom-jefire.html

Those guys really find each other (!!!wink_o.gif

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Russians have done a lot of shit. I'm not defending Russia. I'm defending what they do in Georgia and I'm defending the USSR.

Stalin was great. That's my opinion and that's what the russian people thinks. Not those with internet access though.

Anyway, guess where the George W. Bush Avenue is?

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Stalin was great. That's my opinion and that's what the russian people thinks.

Everyone must think that obviously, he put everyone that thought differently in either a gulag or a hole in the ground, including the execution of over 20.000 polish POWs in the Katyn forest massacre and several other instances, and of course millions of Russians. Even the later Soviet leaders that threatened the world with total destruction thought he had gone too far. Funny to note though that Stalin was from Georgia, and even more ironically, born in Gori, one of the most heavily contested places during the conflict...

Sure totalitarian regimes have their appeal to some people when things look bleak for the average joe (like many Russians today), but in the long run the lack of freedom isn't worth it. Living in a system where getting your entire family shot over reading the wrong newspaper, possessing a radio (i.e. the nazis) or freely traveling without permission of the government (like those that tried to escape from East Berlin) is possible is not something most people look forward to.

If the other Soviet leaders had behaved the same as Stalin, the USSR might very well still have existed, though perhaps not as powerful as it was during the height of the cold war. That would have meant the death of many more millions of people, so I can't say I feel saddened by the loss.

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But JdB, you forgot that all those supposedly oppressed people were free from the yoke of the foremen and CEOs! Surely freedom from a corrupt system can completely rationalize the slaughter of millions, after all, those millions would see their own people enslaved by evil capitalists! You wouldn't want Farmer Jones to come back, would you??? p.s. America Sucks, Bush this blah blah blah.

/spokesperson.

Seriously, Spokesperson, your version of revisionist history is frightening, I can't wait till you get out of college and have to work for a living.

*edit to add obligatory Screw the USA footnote.

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Damn, I'm also a communist, I also think that Stalin was excellent anticrisis manager, but Spokesperson is a real geek.

Two possible varients - he's too enthusiatic about his ideas or really just a teenager idealizing something he doesn't know. A phrase "Russia did a lot of shit, but I defend USSR" seems pretty strange to me. If you fully defend USSR, then what moment of Russian history caused so much of your proud anger? Or you have complaints about period of Russian Empire history?

2JbD

Wow, great speach. I guess you are a russian average joe to speak that things were bleak in USSR? You perhaps can't imagine this, but people were working, living, loving, laughing and enjoying their life there.

As I can conclude from your words - you think, that after-Stalin USSR was still a dark jail with steel skies above the heads, where all people were in constant depress. Well, it's a really total nonsense. You're no better than spokesperson, who's talking about what he doesn't know.

Sure, not everything was fine in USSR and some things were really needed to be improved, but that doesn't mean that everything was so bad and bleak, as you try to tell here.

Somehow we, soviet and russian citizens, were never thinking of America as it was explained by propaganda. Maybe finally now it's time for our western firends to learn how to separate the wheat from the chaff?

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Quote[/b] ]Russians never did something wrong, right? Not in the Stalin Era, and not afterwards. There where no masses murdered by an "socialist" regime, and Russians are always right.

Are you by any chance an politics-officer in the Russian Army?

Yes, they did. Under Stalin (Georgian) and his close friend head of USSR NKVD by the name Beria (Georgian also).  They kill millions they own citizens.

Watch this video (BBC) guy. You will not believe what you see.    

http://pudelek.ru/63-saakashvili-sel-galstuk-v-prjamom-jefire.html

Those guys really find each other (!!!wink_o.gif

Erm, to make that clear.

My post was meant to be sarcastic, don`t get me wrong. wink_o.gif

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Saying that Stalin was great is like praising Hitler.

In Germany you go to jail for that.

---> Histroy is written by the winners.

Stalin was responsible for as many murders as Hitler was and still people are allowed to admire him. If someone important in Germany says that anything during the Third Reich was better than it is today, he practically commits public suicid.

I don't want to say Hitler was great (God beware!wink_o.gif but I'm wondering where the people are who would mangle me if I did so. Seems like Stalin was allowed to kill so many people.

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I mentioned before that a great deal of the residents of east germany actually want the wall back. 40% in the state of Brandenburg according to a report from the Free University of Berlin. I think it might very well be so. One only has to look at the PDS vote.

The majority of Russians think that the revolution was good.

Stalin hasn't killed millions. But those who died, died during the famine created by land owners who burned the crops and animals when they were told to hand over their land to the people. If we are to count victims of starvation as mass-murder we would have to look at the role of the industrial countries in the current world-wide famine. Millions die every year. And if that is summed up you'll see that the western capitalist system is responsible for most deaths in history.

Stalin dealt with reactionaries and enemies of the revolution. Those who ruled during capitalism, want the old ways back. And they do what they can to restore those times. There has never been a revolution without a counter-revolution.

Russia is a capitalist country and is therefore shit. USSR was socialist and a shining star for hundreds of millions of people in the world, from South America to Africa and Asia. But socialism naturally lives on without the USSR too. More and more people join the "axis of good" in South America. A few days ago, Paraguay joined the Chavez-Castro cooperation.

Quote[/b] ]But JdB, you forgot that all those supposedly oppressed people were free from the yoke of the foremen and CEOs! Surely freedom from a corrupt system can completely rationalize the slaughter of millions, after all, those millions would see their own people enslaved by evil capitalists! You wouldn't want Farmer Jones to come back, would you??? p.s. America Sucks, Bush this blah blah blah.

You don't even know what communism or capitalism is. Yet you use those words as if you knew.

Quote[/b] ]Sure totalitarian regimes have their appeal to some people when things look bleak for the average joe (like many Russians today), but in the long run the lack of freedom isn't worth it. Living in a system where getting your entire family shot over reading the wrong newspaper, possessing a radio (i.e. the nazis) or freely traveling without permission of the government (like those that tried to escape from East Berlin) is possible is not something most people look forward to.

Do you talk rubbish too? To think that Stalin was good, doesn't mean that you want a new Stalin today. However 40% of the russian people do this. And what are you supporting? "Democracy"? Then you have to be consistent. If a majority thinks that the USSR was better, you have to respect that and not come up with some "average joe" explanation. I think the inhabitants of the USSR know better than you. And what made so many people "average joes" in the past 20 years? Was it socialism? Russia is socialist? Or is it a country built on the foundations of yeltsinian neo-liberalism and putins conservatism? A socialist country with  some of the most powerful capitalists in the world who have stolen all their wealth from what was once owned by the people?

"Lack of freedom". You like many others are just using the words freedom and democracy without any meaning. It's a magic word that can be used anywhere to make something bad look good.

What kind of freedom? Whose freedom? Freedom from oppression or freedom to oppress? Freedom to exploit or from exploitation? For the slave or for his owner? There are constructions in society that we call classes. They have opposite interests. It's a struggle for power, between the slaves and their owners. Earn more, earn less. Increased social reforms like minumum wage, better pensions, less working hours, health care, safety regulations and so on. They cost money, and they reduce profits. In the country where I live 4% own 90% of everything. So sure, it's a free country, especially if you own most of it.

In fact, there is no need for any share-holders. The USSR, cuba and many other countries prove that a society can manage without parasites and improve life for those who work instead of those who own.

The society can be controlled by those who work rather than by those who own.

You polish people are just upset that Poland was dominated by the influence of the USSR. That the infantile invention we call religion that dominates most of the polish minds was surpressed as much as nationalism and counter-revolution was. But you see, if there's a small country bordering a big, that small country will always be highly influenced by the big one, no matter the political system. Russia lost its dominance 20 years ago, but now the economy goes better. This time it's a different, religious and capitalist Russia that just has begun to dominate the area.

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Saying that Stalin was great is like praising Hitler.

In Germany you go to jail for that.

---> Histroy is written by the winners.

Stalin was responsible for as many murders as Hitler was and still people are allowed to admire him. If someone important in Germany says that anything during the Third Reich was better than it is today, he practically commits public suicid.

I don't want to say Hitler was great (God beware!wink_o.gif but I'm wondering where the people are who would mangle me if I did so. Seems like Stalin was allowed to kill so many people.

The third reich and the USSR are completely different things. I don't benefit from nazism, but I benefit from socialism.

It's impossible to compare Stalin to Hitler.

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if russia would been so great russian and other workers from the east block wouldn't come to my country to try to make a living imo.. There should been lots of work opportunities in their countries. whistle.gif

Besides also cause they come to my country some people use them really bad and give them bad wages, and they have to live on the construction sites and breath in the bad dust and stuff.

If russia would have been capitalistic or whatever like every other euro country from the get go ( years 1900 and so on ) i think they could have made the country and themselves grow and be really successfull. Instead of now where the people try to find jobs outside their own country and get screwed on wages and labour rights and what not. Imo thats really sad that they have to be used like that. mad_o.gif

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Spokesperson your are blinded by propaganda. Open your eyes there are many theories (statistics) on one side and the real world on the other. Even in systems of socialism there are frauds, corruption and censorship. Once people got taste of better life they like to have it.

Russian troops looting, burning and destroying things from people there too. How can someone support this? Its a poor mans army if soldiers and officers are doing such things. Hate and fanaticism will raise again.

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Quote[/b] ]Russia is a capitalist country and is therefore shit.

Do me a favor - shut up your dirty mouth, churl. I'd bash you up for such words if we meet in the street...

You can discuss the systems, but saying, that somebody's country is shit is too heavy statement for you, darned revolutioner.

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Georgia is now pretty much at the mercy of Russia. It's military devastated and much of it's gear destroyed it has only hope to grab on to.

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You polish people are just upset that Poland was dominated by the influence of the USSR. That the infantile invention we call religion that dominates most of the polish minds was surpressed as much as nationalism and counter-revolution was. But you see, if there's a small country bordering a big, that small country will always be highly influenced by the big one, no matter the political system. Russia lost its dominance 20 years ago, but now the economy goes better. This time it's a different, religious and capitalist Russia that just has begun to dominate the area.

You only forgot about occupation of polish lands (with Austria and Germany) for 123 years, Ribbentrop - Molotov pact in 1939, genocide of polish POW in Katyn forest (around 20.000 people) (still unexplained because Moscow hides documents about it), arresting polish pro-democratic underground goverment in 1945, arresting polish underground soldiers (AK), communism system for next 45 years (God bless Solidarnosc).

Do you want more...?

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Quote[/b] ]I don't compare the systems I compare the methods!

The methods are very different. And the cause is also.

Quote[/b] ]If russia would have been capitalistic or whatever like every other euro country from the get go ( years 1900 and so on ) i think they could have made the country and themselves grow and be really successfull. Instead of now where the people try to find jobs outside their own country and get screwed on wages and labour rights and what not. Imo thats really sad that they have to be used like that.  

Not at all, things would have been worse. The USSR was industrialized in two decades. And in the 70ies, with the same growth, it looked like the USSR would get past the US in a few decades. The USSR GDP/capita was higher than the Russian one, today. Russia has always been behind the most industrialized countries. The USSR changed that.

And look at Greece, Spain, Italy or Portugal. They've had capitalist governments all the way. Or look at the rest of the world. South America, Africa, Asia. People go from Mexico to the US, and they've had a capitalist government all the time too.

Quote[/b] ]Spokesperson your are blinded by propaganda. Open your eyes there are many theories (statistics) on one side and the real world on the other. Even in systems of socialism there are frauds, corruption and censorship. Once people got taste of better life they like to have it.

Russian troops looting, burning and destroying things from people there too. How can someone support this? Its a poor mans army if soldiers and officers are doing such things. Hate and fanaticism will raise again.

Propaganda, what propaganda? There's no propaganda for my ideas. It does not exist. The only propaganda there is, is liberal and sanctioned by the capitalist (aka free) press and their puppets in the government.

I'm basing my arguments on reason. The way the labour-market works in a capitalist society is in economical terms a modern version of slavery, where one guy owns (with police protection) and a hundred work for him. In production you work 8h a day but only get paid for 3h. 5h's value of work goes straight into the pockets of share holders who do nothing apart from owning. That's exploitation. And it's not needed. The rational interest of the working class is therefore to end it.

Statistics is better than no statistics at all. It supports my claims and my impressions. You only have naïve emotional arguments, based on belief, and you don't want to know nor want me to be right.

Of course there can be corruption in socialism just like in any society with a government. The difference is that the government serves another purpose. It isn't the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, but of the proletariat, in other words the dictatorship of the majority. Socialism won't be good for all, it isn't supposed to be.

I'm not supporting looting and that kind of things. I'm supporting Russia because their forces were attacked by a neo-liberal US-puppet who want to enslave even more people.

Quote[/b] ]Do me a favor - shut up your dirty mouth, churl. I'd bash you up for such words if we meet in the street...

You can discuss the systems, but saying, that somebody's country is shit is too heavy statement for you, darned revolutioner.

Nationalism is an infantile disease, just like religion. All countries are shit, more or less, apart from Cuba, the only internationalist country. Some countries are approaching Cuban standards, but they are not there yet.

Quote[/b] ]Georgia is now pretty much at the mercy of Russia. It's military devastated and much of it's gear destroyed it has only hope to grab on to.

It's no problem. They were all US gifts. They'll just get new gear $20M worth for free.

Quote[/b] ]

You only forgot about occupation of polish lands (with Austria and Germany) for 123 years, Ribbentrop - Molotov pact in 1939, genocide of polish POW in Katyn forest (around 20.000 people) (still unexplained because Moscow hides documents about it), arresting polish pro-democratic underground goverment in 1945, arresting polish underground soldiers (AK), communism system for next 45 years (God bless Solidarnosc).

Do you want more...?

I know about all that. Of course it was wrong to occupy Poland before the WW1. The rest is ok on the whole, of pragmatic reasons. But the underground movements were not pro-democratic. They were all anti-democratic just like the current polish system is. Money rules, not people. Solidarnosc made everything worse. Made capitalism, consumerism and religion come back. How many people vote in in the polish elections? Less than 50%? What about unemployment? Sure that doesn't matter, because real life problems are nothing compared to not being able to go to church and pray and hope Jesus will fix everything. Church is just like a bottle of whisky.

And now you've had so much of it that you don't understand your situation. You've enraged russia by helping the americans and made yourselves targets for nuclear missiles. You're actively licking US-boots, you are not independent, just tools of your american business partners. Some countries are doomed to be puppets. That's the harsh reality.

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lol i really tried hard but guess it's impossible after latest additions from spokesperson smile_o.gif

so

i consider You now thread of my way of life, my freedom and my revolution ...

in fact You threat the future for whole mankind ...

my super ninjas are now on secret mission to kill You in name of MY revolution ....

in other words please stop twisting historical facts and 'outraging' countries / people as result confused_o.gif

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You're just sheep who have grown up on the grass-fields of lies and propaganda.

But it's not your fault. If I had to listen to people like Bush (at school, or in TV) without having learned how to think critically and independently I would be just like you.

Democracy and freedom are words that are used to combat democracy and freedom.

Or like the former chief of CIA latin america operations puts it:

"Sometimes, unfortunately, things have to be changed in a rather ugly way."

"Get used to it world, we're not gonna put up with nonsense. If our interests are threatened we're gonna do it."

No US president has ever used those words in public. Yet that's what the orders have been for the past hundred years. More than 50 governments have been overthrown, millions of people have died, and dictators have been installed. Is that what you call democracy? Is that a country you support? The puppets are even worse. They lie and lie.

The de-facto coups in Ukraine, and Georgia are products of the very same apparatus. But more sophisticated.

What if Bush, Obama, McCain used those word instead. It would be more earnest. And a lot of people wouldn't be like you.

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Most of us here just don't give a flying feck what you think. But it can be quite entertaining to annoy you and get you all flustered on your commie 'high horse'.

You are an egotistical 'know it all', you look down on us like we spend our days drooling into cups and that is why most people don't favour you.

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Whoah, there it was again, we criticize Spokesperson for being a revisionist ass, and all of a sudden, he deflects to the USA-Bashing again.

Here's the thing, most Americans don't like the way the government is doing things, and this is reflected by our president and congress' all time low approval ratings. Of course, you already know this, being a US university student and all (I'd put money on it, this is the only country dumb enough to see historical revisionist hipsters with sickle and hammer tattoos hanging out in chain department stores). So, if we're criticizing your viewpoints as an idealistic fairy tale, you should defend your viewpoints instead of assuming that we're all lining up behind bush because we disagree with you.

That's just infantile.

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Forget it, not worth my attention.

Spokesperson is a worthless troll, stop feeding him.

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