International Politics Thread

[-Snafu- 77]

Quote[/b] ]I can find hundreds who disagree.

Find one then.

Quote[/b] ]Neither am I intrested in providing you evidence of how World War One started. Since you have clearly already read one historians opinions on why, if you wish to learn more, read anothers.

Quite a strange excuse there. If you are not going to back your claim up then why bother arguing it? Rather pointless. I have read more than one opinion. It's widely regarded that there was a balance of power and I have never read anything that actively counters that. Treaties, arms race to keep up with each other. The saying is that Europe was divided into 'two armed camps'. Not 'two armed camps with one slightly more powerful than the other.'

Quote[/b] ]With respect, if you think there is only one opinon, let alone one correct opinion; I won't be able to persuade you otherwise and have no intention of trying.

I have read more than one 'opinion'. The notion that there was a balance of power is widely accepted. Google WW1 causes balance of power, you will find plenty of information. Immediately before WW1 there was a balance of power on the continent where no one power dominated. This situation had the potential for change when war broke out, if Germany overran the continent it would dominate it and thus the balance of power would change and not in Britain's favour.

Quote[/b] ]As a fellow student of history, are you familiar with the term "buffer zone"?

It is important for rival dominions to have buffer zones.

It would be madness for NATO to extend it's borders right up to Russia.

As we have seen countless times, in areas of friction small events start wars. The kidnap of an Isreali soldier....The terrorist bombing of a Georgian peacekeeper.

Never make alliances in these regions. They are constantly at war.

We were not talking about buffer zones or alliances before but your idea that a balance of power will always equal peace.

Quote[/b] ]RalphWiggum is a known talker. When he has no facts or knowledge about something he just keeps on talking rubbish.

Pot, meet the kettle

[william1 0]

today Mr. Bush was talking about that Georgia is a sovereign country that has right to the territorial integrity... i wonder , is not Serbia a sovereign country as well with right to territorial integrity too ?. then why did the USA supported the independency of Kosovo ?

in my opinion, all leaders of the major countries in the world are nothing but delincuents , who despise human lifes and indicate to the others with dirty fingers, and they would sell their mothers for a bunch of buckets and oil.

[gsleighter 0]

Serbia was a little more clear-cut in terms of who was committing atrocities on who, and Kosovo isn't being annexed by a rival superpower, they're becoming independent. It looks like Georgia is going to lose two provinces, at a minimum.

I waited pragmatically to see how far this would go before I decided if Russia was out of line here. They're now bombing an airbase well into Georgia, and Georgian troops have withdrawn from South Ossetia. So, if Russia wants SO, they seem to have it, and that's fine with the people of SO, as indicated by several referendums they have held over the last 15 years. We'll see how much farther they go, though.

It's an interesting time, the US no longer has the power or authority to unilaterally dictate foreign policy and tell countries what to do, since we've had a number of countries working to attain superpower status.

[billybob2002 0]

And what the georgian president did is completely wrong, he attacked south osetia to force russia into the conflict on olympic games.

Not exactly. Days leading up to the offensive in South Ossetia, Georgian forces and South Ossetia rebels were attacking each other. Before the offensive even began, up to ten Georgian military personnel were dead and an unknown number of rebels and civilians were dead or wounded.

Quote[/b] ] And the UN peackeeepers, who eneds them? UN never solved aything, did UN solve problems in yugoslavia no? UN wasn't even interesting in solving conflict that georgia started, but when russia gets invlolved suddenly everyone starts talking about it, where were you before? when russia wasn't there and georgians started destroying villages in south osetia...

There were peacekeepers in South Ossetia. The peacekeepers were composed of Russian, Georgian, and North Ossetia personnel. The peacekeepers clearly failed.

Quote[/b] ]

Joining NATO is like becomign slave of US, where you have to fight in conflicts that US will start....

Oh really? How will the United States force NATO countries to fight wars started by the United States?

[echo1 0]

It's an interesting time, the US no longer has the power or authority to unilaterally dictate foreign policy and tell countries what to do, since we've had a number of countries working to attain superpower status.

Since when has the US ever had control over what the Russians do?

[gsleighter 0]

Through the cold war, the US and Russia kept each other in check through their respective military alliances. But now, The US, which bears a large part of NATO's military might, is stretched thin in two drawn out wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and all it can do is sternly condemn Russia's actions.

On that, Russia seems to be involved in offensive military operations in other areas besides SO, which doesn't help their argument that they were protecting Ossetians from a Georgian slaughter, since they now occupy SO, and it's many kilometers from the other province in question.

[xawery 0]

I think it's quite clear that Russia doesn't want to annex either South Ossetia or Abkhazia, nor is it trying to support their claims to independence. Russia is scared to death of creating a precedent. That's why they vehemently opposed the independence of Kosovo: not because they love serbs, but because it would create a precedent for Russia's own provinces with aspirations to independece (Chechnya, Dagestan, Tatarstan, Birobidzan). Russia is aiming at maintainting the muddled status quo, which still prevents Georgia from becoming a member of NATO (what with countries with border disputes being excluded). At the same time, they're trying to disrupt the oil supply in the region, hence the bombing of the BTC pipeline.

I must say the Russians played this very well. First they handed out Russian passports left and right to any South Ossetian that would take them. Seeing as the Russian constitution provides for the right to defend Russian nationals anywhere in the world, this has given Russia a legitimate reason to violate Georgia's sovereignty without actually proclaiming war. They also knew full well that Saakasjvili was elected on the promise of bringing the rebel provinces to heel. Given his low popularity, infamous lack of equanimity and a steady rise of skirmishes on the borders it was just a matter of time before Saakasjvili would overreact. Now the Russians even managed to drag Ukraine into this, accusing them of supplying the Georgians with arms (while the Russians themselves have spent the last few years arming the rebels). Ukraine, in turn, now threatens to close off Sebastopol to the Russian navy in the Black Sea.

This proxy war could very well infect the entire region... Things are bound to get interesting. In an ideal world, the Georgians would allow Abkhazia and South Ossetia to secede. Not only would that piss off the Kremlin (which is always a good thing ), but it would also eliminate the main obstacle preventing Georgia from becoming a member of NATO. Integrating Georgia into NATO would create a steady supply route of energy circumventing Russia, thus weakening their main bargaining chips. Sadly, this isn't an ideal world.

[Spokesperson 0]

Yes, Cz was on the winning side, but it was also defeated twice. First by germany and then the fascist government by the red army. Governments changed.

The Cz people didn't support the nazis, but that doesn't matter. Its soldiers still invaded the USSR.

I'm not saying the intervention in cz was right because of what they did in the USSR, but because of the counter-revolutionary activity in the country. After 1991 the counter-revolution won. You now have your "democracy" where one koruna means one vote, and where the free press is limited to represent the interests who own it. There's no economic democracy anymore. Unemployment, homelessness didn't exist before. Some people have gotten more wealthy and more power, while the majority have got less. Sure, computers, shoes etc are much cheaper to manufacture today so naturally the standards of living have risen just like in the rest of the world.

In most of East Germany (non-Berlin) 40% think it was better before. They even want the wall back. In Russia 70% liked the USSR better. A guy who has been spoon-fed with west-liberal lies can't imagine this. Because his world-view is totally distorted and simplified. The CZ communist party is quite unique as well.

To me it's quite evident who's right in this conflict:

1. US-trained Georgian soldiers invade South Ossetia when OS-starts. The 1000-man strong russian UN-peacekeeping force has no chance.

2. Georgians burn separatist villages and blast capital with artillery. Civilians and peacekeepers die.

3. Russia sends reinforcements to its peacekeepers. (Now it's Russias fault according to -most- of the western press).

4. Georgians retreat but not away from S. O. and demand a truce.

5. Georgians attack the russian soldiers from georgian territory.

6. Russia attacks those airfields and artillery positions. (Now the russian war lovers went further into Georgia according to western press).

7. When bombing a factory in Gori some houses got hit. A handful people die. The press shows these pictures over and over. But what is a house compared to a city?

And what is Georgia doing in Iraq? Who invited them there?  Saddam? who at least didn't sell his country at bargain prices to foreign interests. No complaints about them participating in that boot-licking invasion/occupation.

[-Snafu- 77]

Quote[/b] ]In most of East Germany (non-Berlin) 40% think it was better before.

If you are going to present figure site a credible source otherwise your entire argument becomes a load of bullshit and chips.

Quote[/b] ] In Russia 70% liked the USSR better.

Source?

Quote[/b] ]To me it's quite evident who's right in this conflict:

1. US-trained Georgian soldiers invade South Ossetia when OS-starts. The 1000-man strong russian UN-peacekeeping force has no chance.

2. Georgians burn separatist villages and blast capital with artillery. Civilians and peacekeepers die.

3. Russia sends reinforcements to its peacekeepers. (Now it's Russias fault according to -most- of the western press).

4. Georgians retreat but not away from S. O. and demand a truce.

5. Georgians attack the russian soldiers from georgian territory.

6. Russia attacks those airfields and artillery positions. (Now the russian war lovers went further into Georgia according to western press).

7. When bombing a factory in Gori some houses get hit. A handful people die. The press shows these pictures over and over. But what is a house compared to a city?

I don't see how it's clear to you especially when there's a lot of conflicting reports on the situation and nobody really knows what exactly is going. Oh wait your Spokesperson, you of course know everything and is never wrong! /sarcasm

[Spokesperson 0]

Sure here are my sources:

http://www.upi.com/NewsTra....878

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....reforms

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....stroika

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls...._russia

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls...._russia

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....yeltsin

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....ourably

http://www.angus-reid.com/analysi....stroika

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....c_event

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....rezhnev

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls....rbachev

The 40% figure is from the Free University of Berlin. I read it in my local newspaper.

The anti-liberal PDS (eurocommunists) is one of the biggest parties in the east, in some states bigger than the conservatives and social democrats.

Quote[/b] ]I don't see how it's clear to you especially when there's a lot of conflicting reports on the situation and nobody really knows what exactly is going. Oh wait your Spokesperson, you of course know everything and is never wrong! /sarcasm

No, my list consists of facts. Georgia attacked S. O. and the russian UN-peacekeepers there. Then Russia sent in reinforcements. At least, it seems like I know that better than you. So, what's your agenda? Support for the Queen?

[Call911-AGE- 0]

Hey why don't we bash the USA some more, sigh.

[echo1 0]

Its a sad fact of life that when there are serious socioeconomic problems in a country, or when a country has bad leadership, people become supportive of extremist politics... But that doesn't suddenly means that the old ways or extremist ways are automatically right, it just means that the government isn't doing its job. If, for example, a majority of Germans who lived during the 1930s and 1940s said that they thought everything was much better under the fascist system, would you support fascism?

[-Snafu- 77]

Where do you get 70% from in that poll? Also questions like this

Quote[/b] ]What is your opinion of the reforms initiated by Mikhail Gorbachev?

do not belong in polls as you have to select from x amount of answers which in turn means that it's not really a respondents own opinion. Questions like that need to answered properly.

Quote[/b] ]The 40% figure is from the Free University of Berlin.

40% is not a majority.

Quote[/b] ]No, my list consists of facts. Georgia attacked S. O. and the russian UN-peacekeepers there. Then Russia sent in reinforcements. At least, it seems like I know that better than you. So, what's your agenda? Support for the Queen?

Why can't you understand that's it is too early to tell what exactly happened? Unless of course you managed to obtain leave from the Russian/Georgian/Ossetian forces and find a working internet connection to post all that.

I bet that all these facts that you have will change in due time as the world finds out what and when everything actually went down. Right now it's just Georgia and Russia accusing each other of doing this and that.

I'm not backing Georgia here. I think their assault was a stupid decision.

Quote[/b] ]At least, it seems like I know that better than you.

Lol, you are so full of shit. Walk in here like you know everything and you look down your nose at us. Pathetic.

Quote[/b] ]So, what's your agenda?

Agenda? What the hell are you smoking? I am not a member of the Secret Service. Agenda! LMAO. God you are so paranoid. Do you wear a tin foil hat?

Quote[/b] ]Support for the Queen?

What the fuck has Her Majesty got to do with all this?

[NoRailgunner 0]

Spokesperson your sources are outdated. Find some new statistics and go on with your speculations.

[MehMan 0]

Can you stop feeding Spokesperson? He won't accept our views, neither will we his, nobody gets anywhere, no center point is reached. Just let him be, we'll let him live his delusions, we'll live ours.

Georgia reacted far too swiftly, instead of attacking South Ossetia they should've turned to the UN and they wouldn't get their ass pummeled by Russia. "The UN you say? Like they ever did anything you moron MehMan!" Well it surely does beat turning to the UN than getting the wrath of Russia on your ass. However, that would only stall the current situation, but who knows, perhaps not?

[echo1 0]

I still wonder though, do the South Ossetians want independence or Russian rule? Because if they want independence, Russia is setting an unfavorable precedent for North Ossetia, and even Chechnya.

[otk-member 0]

I still wonder though, do the South Ossetians want independence or Russian rule? Because if they want independence, Russia is setting an unfavorable precedent for North Ossetia, and even Chechnya.

If they want independence - let it be.

If they want to join us - they must to decided it by self.

Its their land, their history and their opinion.

Today, we just keep they lives and punish Georgians.

BTW: If Russians making a war - we even take a capital of enemy. We on the way right now

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7554507.stm

Saakashbili must be in prison, for killing 1500 Osetian peoples.

http://cominf.org/english/

Sorry for troubles with my language errors

[MehMan 0]

Saakashbili must be in prison, for killing 1500 Osetian peoples.

http://cominf.org/english/

I think it's reasonable to doubt that 1500 were killed.

[otk-member 0]

Actually, some info sites and TV talk about over 2000 killed.

If artillery like "GRAD" firing on town, it not a trouble - kill so much peoples.

Btw, it was ethnic cleansing in captured villages. Georgian soldiers was cleaners.

http://russianossetia.wordpress.com/

P.S. Latest news.

Two Chechen battalions, "EAST" and "WEST" have arrived to a zone of the conflict. I do not envy Georgians now... Chechens are not able to spare.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I still wonder though, do the South Ossetians want independence or Russian rule? Because if they want independence, Russia is setting an unfavorable precedent for North Ossetia, and even Chechnya.

If they want independence - let it be.

If they want to join us - they must to decided it by self.

Its their land, their history and their opinion.

Today, we just keep they lives and punish Georgians.

BTW: If Russians making a war - we even take a capital of enemy. We on the way right now

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7554507.stm

Saakashbili must be in prison, for killing 1500 Osetian peoples.

http://cominf.org/english/

Sorry for troubles with my language errors

1500, that is an unconfirmed number and we know how the russian administration loves to fool with the press. Info sites? What info sites do the russians have that are independant? As far as I know 0,zero,nada,keine,pas du tout.

If they got no freedom of press,  trust them even less.

And delivering free russian passports to the ossetians a damn good indicator of what russias intention is in this conflict. "Russian Peacekeepers" that definition is already a cynical joke by itself.  

And Kokoity... well he comes from a russian oil company. suuuprise.

Fool your own people, they seem to love that, dont try to fool us. The whole conflict smells like rotten cheese.

[otk-member 0]

Man, im one of this "fooled" peoples like you think.

Look at your CNN - it only support Georgian, they not talk about our and Osetian opinion. You so belive to your press... But where you see a "freedom" there? Why in Sound Osetia not working foreign press, exept one Ukraine journal?

Why they always talk from Georgia? Freedom? Not really. It simple propoganda.

I'm dont watch TV, i'm look news in internet. Here is more "freedom" news.

Btw - did you know, that Georgian goverment block *.ru sites and Russian TV Chanels?

[-Snafu- 77]

This report pretty much sums up the current blame game that's going on.

Linky

Quote[/b] ]Btw - did you know, that Georgian goverment block *.ru sites and Russian TV Chanels?

From above article:

Quote[/b] ]In Georgia, only one television channel was operating at the start of the conflict and all .ru Russian Internet sites were briefly blocked, though they were available by Sunday evening.

[ozanzac 0]

It's hard to accurately tell from the press who's the good guy and who's the bad guy with the level of disinformation seen.

There is no disputing South Ossetia is the soverign territory of Georgia. Russian interests should cease beyond the peak of the Greater Caucasus Mountain range, and Russia's distribution of passports to the people beyond that has questionable motives. But Saakashvili's agressive action to reassert control of the province whilist Russian peacekeeping forces were still present, was foolish, and has failed miserably.

Even if Georgian forces had secured the links connecting Russia, the response from Moscow was never going to be good... A very short-sighted decision from Tblisi, based on optimism and a false hope of genuine western military backing.

Georgia failed to realise, that the west has absolutely no desire for direct conflict with Russia. The risks are not worth it, which is why NATO membership was rejected, despite US backing.

Had NATO membership been granted, it would have prevented the Russian retaliation, but it could have lead to Russia switching off the energy supply lines that feed so much of Europe.

Russia is regaining it's sense of 'realist' diplomacy, wherby it will swing it's weight to ensure results in its favour.

Saakashvili played his cards wrong, and will be left at the mercy of Putin. I don't think Russian forces will move permanently beyond the disputed Ossetian or the freshly occupied Abkhazian provinces (though attacking Georgian military installations would not be out of the question); But I'd suspect Russia won't be handing control of the provinces over to the Georgians if ever, least there be a solid UN resolution in the area, with widespread conditions attached.

[scubaman3D 0]

It really boils down to this:

Russia says "We're protecting civilians", especially in SO, but their actions suggest otherwise. They drop bombs on Georgian marketplaces and civilian buildings and pretend that they are taking the moral high road. The have also opened a 2nd front in their war against Georgia, indicating to me that they intend to topple the government.

Whether Georgia is innocent or not, one thing I know for sure. This invasion by Russia has been obviously in planning for months. They just had to wait for their excuse.

edit:

I went on a couple Russian news website and I was shocked at the pro-Russia, anti-western/US propaganda bullshit that was there. Its shameless and I am stunned that people are so easily fooled by it.

Headlines: "Russia: Again Savior of Peace and Life"

"USA approves Georgia’s aggression against South Ossetia and Russia"

"US hampering Russian peace efforts – Putin"

Excerpt from an article: "US instructors have spent four years training the Georgian army for an ATTACK AGAINST RUSSIAN CIVILIANS."

My mother-in-law, who lives outside of Russia, said that the state-run media is telling its people that the Georgian government is carrying out bombings against its own people so that they can blame it on Russia.

All of this is absurd. My wife and I have a saying whenever we visit faimily there: TIR - "This is Russia"

[Spokesperson 0]

I put the 70% in the top (UPI):

"A new opinion poll from the Yuri Levada Analytical Center, also known as VTsIOM, said 67 percent of Russia's population regret the collapse of the Soviet Union."

Quote[/b] ]Its a sad fact of life that when there are serious socioeconomic problems in a country, or when a country has bad leadership, people become supportive of extremist politics... But that doesn't suddenly means that the old ways or extremist ways are automatically right, it just means that the government isn't doing its job. If, for example, a majority of Germans who lived during the 1930s and 1940s said that they thought everything was much better under the fascist system, would you support fascism?

Who says socialism is extreme? Is democracy extreme? Is it extreme that the people owns and decides the entire production in a country? I think it's extreme that you have some people who own and make money on people who work for them. I think it's extreme that a few owners decide the economy of a country, and that the whole model is based upon profit rather than human needs. And that politics is a fight between those who own and their interests. The rest is filtered away. I think unemployment, wars for profit, homelessness are extreme. The whole capitalist model is a waste of resources, people and nature. I'm not the extremist here. I want democracy, but not the liberal "democracy".

Quote[/b] ]40% is not a majority.

Did I say majority? 40% is high as there are 3 options. And it's increasing.

Quote[/b] ]Why can't you understand that's it is too early to tell what exactly happened? Unless of course you managed to obtain leave from the Russian/Georgian/Ossetian forces and find a working internet connection to post all that.

I think it's very easy to tell what's happened. On friday Georgia launched an invasion of South Ossetia. The next day there were reinforcements for the russian side. Nobody disagrees with this. Still you question what I say. There were no georgian soldiers in South Ossetia at all before friday. How did they appear?

Quote[/b] ]Lol, you are so full of shit. Walk in here like you know everything and you look down your nose at us. Pathetic.

Yes, compared to most of you, not all, I do.

Quote[/b] ]What the fuck has Her Majesty got to do with all this?

I think she should be put in a rehabilitation camp just like the last Chinese emperor. If she hadn't been that old, maybe she could've worked as a toilet cleaner.

Quote[/b] ]Spokesperson your sources are outdated. Find some new statistics and go on with your speculations.

Outdated statistics? Yeah, very. Things change over a day? You want stats on a daily basis or what? There is always some way to not accept facts.

Quote[/b] ]1500, that is an unconfirmed number and we know how the russian administration loves to fool with the press. Info sites? What info sites do the russians have that are independant? As far as I know 0,zero,nada,keine,pas du tout.

Jeez, the numbers are not from the rus government. They are from the South Ossetians. And they, if anybody, should be the only ones who are able to provide the correct numbers. If they want.

Do you really think they call themselves peacekeepers for fun? Then why don't all call themselves that? The difference is that they were put there after a UN resolution in the early 90ies. But your ignorance shows that western media has avoided to inform you about it. I haven't read it anywhere now, I knew it long before this conflict started.

Quote[/b] ]If they got no freedom of press,  trust them even less.

Do you think there's free press where you live? Only the ones who own it can call it that. Free press is not when a few people, rich owners with special class-interests, have a monopoly on media.

Quote[/b] ]Headlines: "Russia: Again Savior of Peace and Life"

"USA approves Georgia’s aggression against South Ossetia and Russia"

"US hampering Russian peace efforts – Putin"

Excerpt from an article: "US instructors have spent four years training the Georgian army for an ATTACK AGAINST RUSSIAN CIVILIANS."

Tell us your source. But naturally Russian news is biased just like the western press is. There's no free press.