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actually, I think that the SO is smart for stirring the pot and giving the excuse to the Russians by enticing the Georgians.

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Then how can you even judge something, if you even don't know, that there're a russian peacekeepers on territory of SO since 1992?

2 Ralph Wiggum

Yes, I red it. But well, UAV incidents were in the air of Abkhazia, AFAIK? Just to tip: SO and Abkhazia are not the same regions.

And to be precisely correct - it's still not clearly known who shot the UAV, since Abkhazians say it's them who downed it (they also have the same type of Mig in their arsenal) and our goverment deny our involvement. Anyway - georgians were not allowed to make reconaissance or any other types of military flights above Abkhazian territory.

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Then how can you even judge something, if you even don't know, that there're a russian peacekeepers on territory of SO since 1992?

How about the fact that such peacekeepers included Georgian forces too? You want to conveniently omit that?

Quote[/b] ]Yes, I red it. But well, UAV incidents were in the air of Abkhazia, AFAIK? Just to tip: SO and Abkhazia are not the same regions.

And to be precisely correct - it's still not clearly known who shot the UAV, since Abkhazians say it's them who downed it (they also have the same type of Mig in their arsenal) and our goverment deny our involvement. Anyway - georgians were not allowed to make reconaissance or any other types of military flights above Abkhazian territory.

You mean same Abkhazians who are supported by Moscow in order to weaken Georgia? So instead of doing it themselves they use a proxy.

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And how about the fact there're also osetian peacekeepers too? Georgian peacekeepers are stationed on their territory, while HQ of Russian PCs is on SO territory.

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Wow, sensitive much? I'm discussing, because I'm a westerner, and most of my information on the region comes from CNN, BBC, and the web.

As for judgement, I'm being fairly pragmatic, which riles up the flag-waving patriotic type, whether that type is American or Russian. I'm not condemning any action taken by Russia here. Like I was saying, it's been rough for SO, because Georgia doesn't share resources with them, and they have to buy electricity from Russia with money that they make taxing Russian and Georgian trade through the area. Now, though, they get to be part of a larger entity more likely to just share infrastructure and resources, and they get the protection of the Russian military, to boot. Russia now gets cheaper trade through the region and another spot on the map. It's a win for SO and Russia, and the only short end is Georgia, who's lost territory and potentially been exposed in a campaign to kill lots and lots of innocent people.

Again, I have not condemned the military action Russia's made. There's now a bunch of dead Russians and Georgians, and a bunch of soldiers trying not to get killed in a foreign land for their government. I'm just trying to make sense of all this for myself and anybody else interested in this.

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And how about the fact there're also osetian peacekeepers too? Georgian peacekeepers are stationed on their territory, while HQ of Russian PCs is on SO territory.

Now that I called out your deliberate attempt to omit some information, you are trying to muddy the issue. No matter how you look SO has been internationally regarded as part of Georgian land. So yes, when Georgians were on their territory, they were on their territory, which includes SO

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Given that the Georgians have been shelling the Ossetian capital, one can only hope that the Russians find it within their hearts to take that capability away from them.

@Gslighter, Russia subsides South Ossetia. It's an economic dependent.

@NSXr it is widely held by the western press that Russia has being stirring up the Ossetian Independence movement to undermine attempts by Georgia to join NATO and that to some extent these events are not unconnected.

When did Russia first recognise South Ossetia as independant?

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Quote[/b] ]So when the Czechs and Hungarians didn't want Soviets and communism, it was only fitting that they are crushed by military, right?

What kind of communism? There has never been any communism anywhere.

The uprisings there were mostly nationalist, but also socialist.

The rioters wanted socialism, but in a different form. They called it "socialism with a human face". (Naive Bullshit Socialism). In Hungary the remaining supporters of the fascist regime revolted and murdered people in broad daylight on the streets. Eastern european troops went there to restore order. After the WW2 parts of Eastern Europe were liberated and indirectly controlled by the USSR. This isn't strange as CZ and Hun were aggressors in WW2. This is also what the potsdam treaty concluded. Russian influence over eastern europe was accepted by the US, UK etc. Same goes for US influence over France, W. Germany, Italy etc.

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2Baff1

When did Russia recognized SO as an independent state? Good question. I'd say - never. Pretty much because Russia's official position support uniting of the Georgia, but without any military actions from both sides.

2 Ralph Wiggum

No, I mean, that you're mixing two nations, two pretty much diffirent regions (they don't even have common border). You're talking about abkhazian UAV incidents, that "gave us an execuse", while topic is about SO, which is not the same. smile_o.gif

Well, anyway - seems like a useless arguement to me, so I'm leaving it. Everyone who thinks, that Russians are the agressors - please think like it as much as you desire. This won't change the situation. smile_o.gif As we in Russia say "dog is barking, convoy is moving" (this doesn't have any specific attitude against any person here though).

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After the WW2 parts of Eastern Europe were liberated and indirectly controlled by the USSR. This isn't strange as CZ and Hun were aggressors in WW2.

?

I'm sorry. When did Czechs invade Soviet? Why after they were taken over by Nazis! So blame the Czechs for something they cannot be held accountable for. Very nice. rofl.gif

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And how about the fact there're also osetian peacekeepers too? Georgian peacekeepers are stationed on their territory, while HQ of Russian PCs is on SO territory.

Now that I called out your deliberate attempt to omit some information, you are trying to muddy the issue. No matter how you look SO has been internationally regarded as part of Georgian land. So yes, when Georgians were on their territory, they were on their territory, which includes SO

No mate Russia recognises SO as independant.

Their population has successfully held two referendums since the ninties on the subject of independance. Hundreds of peopple died in the aftermath fo the first one, and the Russians deployed peacekeepers who able to negotiate a truce.

A minority of SO people are of Georgian ethnicity and they all voted against it.

Many SO people hold Russian passports.

SO has repeatedly asked the world for recognition since Kosovo was recognised as independant from Serbia.

It became a territory of Georgia during the creation of the Soviet Union.

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2 Ralph Wiggum

No, I mean, that you're mixing two nations, two pretty much diffirent regions (they don't even have common border). You're talking about abkhazian UAV incidents, that "gave us an execuse", while topic is about SO, which is not the same. smile_o.gif

Well, anyway - seems like a useless arguement to me. Everyone who thinks, that Russians are the agressors - please think like it as much as you desire. This won't change the situation. smile_o.gif As we in Russia say "dog is barking, convoy is moving" (this doesn't have any specific attitude against any person here though).

Two different regions, both backed by Moscow to agitate Georgia. Maybe on the surface it looks like they are two different incidents, but in fact they are facade of larger conflict underneathe which just came to the surface.

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Quote[/b] ]No mate Russia recognises SO as independant.

Source? Or is this going to be like your last post?

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After the WW2 parts of Eastern Europe were liberated and indirectly controlled by the USSR. This isn't strange as CZ and Hun were aggressors in WW2.

?

I'm sorry. When did Czechs invade Soviet? Why after they were taken over by Nazis! So blame the Czechs for something they cannot be held accountable for. Very nice. rofl.gif

It doesn't matter. CZ as a country and its soldiers invaded the USSR, together with Germany and other countries.

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After the WW2 parts of Eastern Europe were liberated and indirectly controlled by the USSR. This isn't strange as CZ and Hun were aggressors in WW2.

?

I'm sorry. When did Czechs invade Soviet? Why after they were taken over by Nazis! So blame the Czechs for something they cannot be held accountable for. Very nice. rofl.gif

A good number of the Czechs were ethnically German.

They joined the SS and commited atrocities and genocides in Russia.

They are fully accountable for their actions.

They volunteered.

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And how about the fact there're also osetian peacekeepers too? Georgian peacekeepers are stationed on their territory, while HQ of Russian PCs is on SO territory.

Now that I called out your deliberate attempt to omit some information, you are trying to muddy the issue. No matter how you look SO has been internationally regarded as part of Georgian land. So yes, when Georgians were on their territory, they were on their territory, which includes SO

No mate Russia recognises SO as independant.

Their population has successfully held two referendums since the ninties on the subject of independance. Hundreds of peopple died in the aftermath fo the first one, and the Russians deployed peacekeepers who able to negotiate a truce.

A minority of SO people are of Georgian ethnicity and they all voted against it.

Many SO people hold Russian passports.

SO has repeatedly asked the world for recognition since Kosovo was recognised as independant from Serbia.

It became a territory of Georgia during the creation of the Soviet Union.

Here's the problem as I see it. As you mentioned, when Georgia broke away from Soviet Union, SO was part of the deal, and Soviet didn't do much except to send some troops in hopes of getting things calmed down. Now they want to poke at Georgia, so using SO as part of their campaign. So it is in interest of Russia to regard SO as a soverign nation.

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Quote[/b] ]No mate Russia recognises SO as independant.

Source? Or is this going to be like your last post?

Sorry snaf, lost the link now, I got it from an online Guardian article.

But my googled timeline doesn't mention it so I was wondering how recently it had occoured.

I hadn't thought to question it's authenticity.

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It doesn't matter. CZ as a country and its soldiers invaded the USSR, together with Germany and other countries.

Yes, it does matter. Acting against your own will is different from willingly participating.

A good number of the Czechs were ethnically German.

They joined the SS and commited atrocities and genocides in Russia.

They are fully accountable for their actions.

They volunteered.

How many?

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2 snafu

Well, I'll clarify this, since guess BBC poorly informs you on recognition of SO, Abkhazia, Kosovo or whoever independence. Fact is that officially Russia never supported any separatistic beginings of any region. Source is RF Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I guess. They even got some requests about recognition by Russia to our Duma to recognize them. And each time Duma denied their requests. Maybe try to google the web and find some more info on this, cause I won't do this for you to proove this obvious and well-known (at least in Russia) point.

This is simply a clarification post. If you wanna to argue - do it with somebody another.

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And how about the fact there're also osetian peacekeepers too? Georgian peacekeepers are stationed on their territory, while HQ of Russian PCs is on SO territory.

Now that I called out your deliberate attempt to omit some information, you are trying to muddy the issue. No matter how you look SO has been internationally regarded as part of Georgian land. So yes, when Georgians were on their territory, they were on their territory, which includes SO

No mate Russia recognises SO as independant.

Their population has successfully held two referendums since the ninties on the subject of independance. Hundreds of peopple died in the aftermath fo the first one, and the Russians deployed peacekeepers who able to negotiate a truce.

A minority of SO people are of Georgian ethnicity and they all voted against it.

Many SO people hold Russian passports.

SO has repeatedly asked the world for recognition since Kosovo was recognised as independant from Serbia.

It became a territory of Georgia during the creation of the Soviet Union.

Here's the problem as I see it. As you mentioned, when Georgia broke away from Soviet Union, SO was part of the deal, and Soviet didn't do much except to send some troops in hopes of getting things calmed down. Now they want to poke at Georgia, so using SO as part of their campaign. So it is in interest of Russia to regard SO as a soverign nation.

I have to say that given the artillery strikes on the Ossetian capital, that all this strikes me as sub plot. An underlying tension.

I'm certainly willing to see this as a contributing factor, and intrested in exploring the idea further, but I don't yet see it as driving motive.

I think events have a habit of taking over in areas of friction.

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It doesn't matter. CZ as a country and its soldiers invaded the USSR, together with Germany and other countries.

Yes, it does matter. Acting against your own will is different from willingly participating.

A good number of the Czechs were ethnically German.

They joined the SS and commited atrocities and genocides in Russia.

They are fully accountable for their actions.

They volunteered.

How many?

Too many.

And sorry "I vas just following ze orders" isn't an excuse I accept.

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It doesn't matter. CZ as a country and its soldiers invaded the USSR, together with Germany and other countries.

Yes, it does matter. Acting against your own will is different from willingly participating.

A good number of the Czechs were ethnically German.

They joined the SS and commited atrocities and genocides in Russia.

They are fully accountable for their actions.

They volunteered.

How many?

Too many.

I take that you cannot support your claim and show that Czechs were actively supporting Nazis

Quote[/b] ]And sorry "I vas just following ze orders" isn't an excuse I accept.

So Russian soldiers who committed less than honorable actions were actively doing it.

Side note: When Czechs made Mausers for Nazis, they were not quite accurate. Czechs made the rifles to shoot a bit off. Unfortunately the Israels found that out too when they got the surplus ones. tounge2.gif

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Look it up for yourself mate.

They were by no means the only ones.

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2 snafu

Well, I'll clarify this, since guess BBC poorly informs you on recognition of SO, Abkhazia, Kosovo or whoever independence. Fact is that officially Russia never supported any separatistic beginings of any region. Source is RF Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I guess. They even got some requests about recognition by Russia to our Duma to recognize them. And each time Duma denied their requests. Maybe try to google the web and find some more info on this, cause I won't do this for you to proove this obvious and well-known (at least in Russia) point.

This is simply a clarification post. If you wanna to argue - do it with somebody another.

Thank you for the clarification. That's all I wanted.

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