International Politics Thread

[Takko 10]

class has color TV and Video and mobile phones

I thought poland is just poor as you described

i was homeless nearly 2 years

Thats not good still you made your way up through

capitalism.

[vilas 477]

i made my way ?

because we still have free education, liberals want to make it for money but not yet made (only half is now for money)

but still state-universities are present

if not free of charge education...

if you think that color TV is big thing... than what is 80 meters flat, car, home near sea than ?

i think that normal status of man should be : have what you need (few room flat, car, PC, 3 week holidays than i can call it "normal life" )and not work for it more than codex regulation says (8 hours)

being rich is for you to have colour TV ? hehe ?

Edited March 9, 2010 by vilas

[Hans Ludwig 0]

i made my way ?

because we still have free education, liberals want to make it for money but not yet made (only half is now for money)

but still state-universities are present

if not free of charge education...

if you think that color TV is big thing... than what is 80 meters flat, car, home near sea than ?

i think that normal status of man should be : have what you need (few room flat, car, PC, 3 week holidays than i can call it "normal life" )and not work for it more than codex regulation says (8 hours)

being rich is for you to have colour TV ? hehe ?

How ironic you bash capitalism, yet you are on forums owned by a group of people that went into business creating one of the most iconic games to ever be created. So shouldn't you be picketing outside of BIS's office instead of mingling with us capitalist pigs?

While you want free everything, which seems to be something you quit frequently reiterate, you seem to forget that "free stuff" is being paid for by hard working men and women that would rather have that money for themselves and their families instead of giving you a free ride in life.

Vila's theme song

<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP1cB_AVu6c&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP1cB_AVu6c&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>

Edited March 13, 2010 by Hans Ludwig

[Takko 10]

I agree with Hans but that song rocks!

Thats my favourite post of all made

Edited March 13, 2010 by Takko

[vilas 477]

you are stupid

i made many many addons 1000s of my work for free for people to enjoy

this you don't see

i spend 5 years doing free stuff for people to enjoy

[NoRailgunner 0]

Vilas you have experienced the ugly side of the capitalism. Some people here perhaps dont have and dont want to see that? The so called "communism" or "socialism" wasn't that better either. There are always two sides of the coin.

Like I said there is a time to get rid of old habits and move/change to something better. No need to stay frozen and be unhappy for the rest of your life.

[spooky lynx 73]

The Georgian tv channel "Imedi" has shown the special reporting: invasion of the Russian armies on territory of Georgia and the beginning of general mobilisation. As informs "Echo Moscow" radiostation, in Russia Interfax has reported the first news about it. After a while it has appeared that "Imedi" has shot a film about the possible scenario of events what the broadcasting company has declared.

As the correspondent of "Echo Moscow" has told, at first the message has appeared in special report of "Imedi" that act of terrorism against the leader of South Ossetia Edward Kokojtty has been made in Tskhinvali. Then the tv channel has informed that the president of Russia Dmitry Medvedev has ostensibly accused the Georgian president Michael Saakashvili in terrorism and after that the Russian armies have invaded in Georgia. After a while "Imedi" has informed on evacuation of the government of the country and Michael Saakashvili, and then about Saakashvili's death and about creation of the National government led by Nino Burjanadze. The program proceeded half an hour, and after messages "about awful bombardments of the airports and seaports of Georgia" broadcasting company, at last, has informed, what is it there was "special reporting on possible succession of events".

According to the correspondent of "Echo", despite broadcasting company explanations, there was panic in Georgia, and the overload of mobile networks has begun: people call each other and find out, what's happened.

Georgia Online also assures information portal that "the shots shown by television channel "Imedi" were only performance and haven't something in common with event in Georgia."

The president of South Ossetia Edward Kokojty has declared that situation on border of South Ossetia and Georgia is absolutely calm, and the reporting of "Imedi" is provocation.

Source

Video in russian

Well, I can't say anything except expletives about some georgian journalists.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

you are stupid

i made many many addons 1000s of my work for free for people to enjoy

this you don't see

i spend 5 years doing free stuff for people to enjoy

That is impressive resume. Hopefully you will win the next Nobel Peace Prize. :rolleyes:

I'm just curious, but do you even work?

[gulag 10]

For me, capitalism and communism are the same shit: battle for a full stomach, only „tactics†is different.

[Baff1 0]

I concur.

I don't even think they are specially different tactics either.

More of a politcal pissing competition than anything else.

[vilas 477]

communism will never exist, cause it can't work

people mix/misunderstand word "social state" with "communism"

ideal is country like Sweden, France, ex West Germany etc.

country that is "social care" but some grid liberals call it communism and equalize

for me good system is system in which you have equal chances to start (free education, free medical treatment, free flat if you cannot afford place to live)

in this manner Warsaw Pact during Cold War would be better from US, cause if you are from very poor family, you have chance to get to better position

without education it is impossible to get to position (other than gangsta, whores)

people love say "North Korea, China 40 years ago, USSR in Stalin epoca" as examples of social-care states which is misleading and twisting propaganda of "rich"

Edited March 14, 2010 by vilas

[Takko 10]

Sweden, France, ex West Germany

There are also relative poor people in these countries.

So if you didn't make it in poland, who tells you that youre making

it there?

[lecholas 2]

in this manner Warsaw Pact during Cold War would be better from US

You should have told that to all those poor people who emigrated from Eastern Block countries to the West (especially to the USA) during the '80 in hope of better life before they made that tragic mistake.

On the other hand did you hear about emigration of people from the USA to the Eastern Block countries in the '80? Is there a lot of ecconomical emigrants from the USA in Warsaw?

Remember that it was easier to get a passport in the USA and go to e.g. Poland (what a greate fact for PRL's propaganda, claiming that PRL is much better than the Western countries, would that be!), than to get a passport in Poland to go to the USA.

[lecholas 2]

Ask about what? Why didn't they come to PRL's paradise to receive a free flat, social help etc?

[maturin 12]

Well, I can't say anything except expletives about some georgian journalists.

It's government propaganda by state-controlled media. Georgia has been backsliding in that regard for a couple years, making the place work more like Russia. Saakashvili has to scare people as badly as he can with the war that he lost.

But really, politics in the Caucasus can be so... creative.

Edited March 14, 2010 by maturin

[spooky lynx 73]

It's government propaganda by state-controlled media. Georgia has been backsliding in that regard for a couple years, making the place work more like Russia. Saakashvili has to scare people as badly as he can with the war that he lost.

But really, politics in the Caucasus can be so... creative.

Yes... If he can do nothing with his country's economy, the best way to remain in the chair of president is to pay all attention to outer enemy - Russia.:rolleyes:

[Baff1 0]

I think recent events have proved that approach to be rather foolhardy.

As I understand it he was elected on the civil war ticket not international war.

I think he pretty much had to do what he did to stay in power.

I'm surprised he is still in office actually. No one appreciates a loser, least of all the electorate.

Hopefully the Kremlin will knock him off. Polonium in his tea or a poisoned umbrella tip FTW.

[spooky lynx 73]

I'm surprised he is still in office actually. No one appreciates a loser, least of all the electorate.

Police, special service and army do. These are the best organizations to work in Georgia with biggest payments. They are totally loyal to Saakashvili, that's why he is still the president.

[maturin 12]

I think recent events have proved that approach to be rather foolhardy.

As I understand it he was elected on the civil war ticket not international war.

I think he pretty much had to do what he did to stay in power.

I'm surprised he is still in office actually. No one appreciates a loser, least of all the electorate.

Hopefully the Kremlin will knock him off. Polonium in his tea or a poisoned umbrella tip FTW.

Civil war ticket, the heck?

He was elected on the 'Georgia without Shevardnadze' ticket. Shevardnadze being the one who lost Abkhazia by attacking it and losing U.S. foreign aid through his enormous corruption. That's an economic development and reform ticket, part of a wide democratic opposition coalition. And he was successful at increasing living standards and reducing poverty levels and unemployment, not the least because he got Western help back.

Saakashvili had solid peace and conflict resolution credentials pre-presidency, involving work with Abkhazia and Nagorno Karabakh. In the first years of his administration, he said he would get the breakaway states would to rejoin Georgia by building a prosperous economy that was too good to pass up. So his later tenure is equal parts irony, tragedy and contradiction.

He was re-elected once, but by a vastly shrunken margin. The megalomaniac, anti-democratic side was coming out. The Georgian electorate may hold onto the breakaways just as fiercely as Serbs and Azeris, and blame Saakashvili for losing them finally, but they blame him more for the war. That's not what they elected him to do.

Saakashvili doesn't enjoy full support from the military, clearly. There was a mutiny on a base near Tbilisi. Blaming it on the Russians is probably too good to be true since subterfuge can only strengthen his position. I can't tell if Russia is that subtle or if they are more of a U.S. neo-con persuasion in terms of intervention.

Edited March 14, 2010 by maturin

[spooky lynx 73]

And he was successful at increasing living standards and reducing poverty levels and unemployment, not the least because he got Western help back.

Friendly speaking, poverty level and unemployment were not reduced. Still a huge amount of money is from georgians, who work in Russia.

Saakashvili had solid peace and conflict resolution credentials pre-presidency, involving work with Abkhazia and Nagorno Karabakh. In the first years of his administration, he said he would get the breakaway states would to rejoin Georgia by building a prosperous economy that was too good to pass up. So his later tenure is equal parts irony, tragedy and contradiction.

Prosperous economy would help only to give stability in Georgia itself. Because neither Abhasia nor Osetia will forgive all what have done georgians to them. My relatives live in Abhasia from late 70-s. They remember what happened in august of 1992. Airstrikes on civil houses and beaches, ethnic cleansing, murderings of innocent civilians by georgian army and paramilitary forces.

Saakashvili doesn't enjoy full support from the military, clearly. There was a mutiny on a base near Tbilisi. Blaming it on the Russians is probably too good to be true since subterfuge can only strengthen his position. I can't tell if Russia is that subtle or if they are more of a U.S. neo-con persuasion in terms of intervention.

From that time a lot of commanders were changed. And that mutiny was looking just funny and totally childish. I won't be surprised that it was another joke from Saakashvili.

[maturin 12]

Prosperous economy would help only to give stability in Georgia itself. Because neither Abhasia nor Osetia will forgive all what have done georgians to them. My relatives live in Abhasia from late 70-s. They remember what happened in august of 1992. Airstrikes on civil houses and beaches, ethnic cleansing, murderings of innocent civilians by georgian army and paramilitary forces.

.

All mutual and then some, in the Abkhazian case. The Abkhaz are at least still living there, since their ethnic cleansing was complete and successful. And some of the airstrikes were carried out by Russia. As I recall, they blew up a marketplace in Sukhumi while the city was under Georgian control. No clean hands in that story. Even some bands of Chechens got in on the bloodshed, perpetrating massacres out of ethnic solidarity. But when 17% of the population drives 45% of the population from their homes in order to create a national state, you don't really qualify for collective victim status.

[spooky lynx 73]

All mutual and then some, in the Abkhazian case. The Abkhaz are at least still living there, since their ethnic cleansing was complete and successful. And some of the airstrikes were carried out by Russia. As I recall, they blew up a marketplace in Sukhumi while the city was under Georgian control. No clean hands in that story. Even some bands of Chechens got in on the bloodshed, perpetrating massacres out of ethnic solidarity. But when 17% of the population drives 45% of the population from their homes in order to create a national state, you don't really qualify for collective victim status.

Hmm... As I know, this marketplace was not damaged badly, especially it was not blown; I visited it in 1997 by myself - only damage from some bullets was visible though it wasn't totally repaired.

Opperssion of Abhasians had been started in 80-s, when all abhasian schools were closed, even most of signboards were on russian and georgian only. Massive migration of georgians was started earlier. So, so called ethnic cleansings of georgians are nothing like revenge. Rude revenge. BTW, newly-formed abhasian government proclaimed that every georgian may stay and live in his/her house, but he should become citizen of Abhasia. But lots of georgians, especially who welcomed georgian army and approved and supported all its crimes such as robbery of all non-georgians, delivery of humanitarian aid to georgians only, moved to Georgia. They were afraid of revenge.

[Baff1 0]

Civil war ticket, the heck?

He was elected on the 'Georgia without Shevardnadze' ticket.

All that is as maybe.

He was elected on the specific manifesto promise to invade South Ossetia in order to restore Georgian rule, to his democratic credit, he did so.

His government had of course signed an international peace treaty not to do so.

But that's not what the Georgian people wanted.

Some people need to be kept at gunpoint before they will behave. God bless Mother Russia.

As for having military support, when push came to shove they all took their uniforms off. Lol.

I think you (Spooky) may have been closer with your original statement about an outside threat. Few things unify a people around their leaders more than being attacked.

With regards to Abkhazia my carpenter guy is half Abkhazian. He lived there in the 90's. A lot of bears in the mountains apparently, and not much in the way of government, more like local villiage elders and crime bosses he was saying.

Needless to say he didn't have any kind words to say about the current Georgian president.

Because he sent troops to Iraq, the Americans love him. But no one else does.

He is a very dangerous man. People have died.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Baff1

[maturin 12]

The oppression of Abkhazians started earlier than the '80s, arguably. It was typical Soviet ethnic politics, defining groups and their respective rights, with a little nationalism and homegrown chauvinism. The USSR encouraged immigration, just as the Russian Empire had resettled religious minorities there after deporting huge numbers of Abkhaz to Turkey. The Abkhaz were a shrunken minority in their own homeland because Russia's imperial policies, followed by Georgian immigration. Parts of Abkhazia are just as historically Georgian as Abkhaz.

There was institutionalized discrimination, but I seriously hope you aren't saying that is worse than ethnic cleansing. In any case, before the war, the Abkhaz controlled public offices and had power disproportionate to their percentage of the population just to keep them happy. In effect, they had the official right to rule over the majority of people just because of their ethnicity. Now who is oppressing who?

Georgians didn't emigrate from Abkhazia because they didn't like the politics. They ran out of fear because they heard (true) stories about massacres and reprisals starting in Sukhumi and spreading across the countryside. They died in droves crossing mountain passes and their homes were burned behind them. So the word of the infant Abkhazian government clearly didn't mean much. It meant about as much Georgian government control over the horde of bandits ("national guard") who rampaged around Sukhumi and started the war.

I don't know about the damage to marketplace in particular, but there was more than one Russian strike and many civilians were killed.

Few things unify a people around their leaders more than being attacked.

That principle explains his current politics and earlier rhetoric, but it was not a significant tactic when he came to power. That was a struggle against an unpopular domestic leader, which is also a unifying struggle. Nationalism was implicit since Shevardnadze was seen as subservient to Russia.

Edited March 14, 2010 by maturin

[Baff1 0]

That principle explains his current politics and earlier rhetoric, but it was not a significant tactic when he came to power. That was a struggle against an unpopular domestic leader, which is also a unifying struggle. Nationalism was implicit since Shevardnadze was seen as subservient to Russia.

As the people of Georgia should always be, given their track record.

Democracy is all well and good but when your electorate is constantly and repeatedly hounding for genocide, it's far better that they don't get that kind of politcal freedom.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Baff1