Us wwii memorial dedicated

[Pathy 0]

Your a German, so tell us, what exactly were your grandparents fighting for when they were part of an army that invaded half of Europe and had the other half dancing to thier jackbooted tune ?

Freedom? Independance? Liberation? The greater good?

[red oct 2]

come on now fella's, we weren't even alive at the time. there's no reason to be baring grudges. the discussion is about the first real WWII memorial opened in washington.

[hellfish6 7]

There are German and Italian graveyards in Egypt that are especially beautiful.

And we haven't forgotten our allies (yet - read Steven Ambrose's book "The Good Fight" which is a children's history book of WWII that makes absolutely no mention of our allies) but our WWII memorial is just that - ours. It memorializes our veterans. I don't think that we have a single memorial that recognizes the service of our allies in any other war either.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

That is exactly what happens if we teach people the Black&White interpretation of WWII. Well done

Your a German, so tell us, what exactly were your grandparents fighting for when they were part of an army that invaded half of Europe and had the other half dancing to thier jackbooted tune ?

Freedom? Independance? Liberation? The greater good?  

Dont give me that attitude pathy. And dont ever accuse my grandparents of having committed crimes during WWII. Or I seriously come over to you and stick a boot right up to your brain.

None of my grandparents had any war involvement. One of my grandfathers was once forced to fly officers and generals in and out of the Kessel because he had a pilots license. But generally my grandparents were industrialists. My grandpa had a big mouth so he got an insider advise to better leave the country or to hide himself somewhere on the countryside. Well it became tougher so he had to escape with only a few belongings direction East away from the Nazi apparatus. And he was later on only allowed back into the american sector because of a broken jaw. He funded several social institutions during the war and with his and his families money an entire city was rebuild, namely Düren. A city that was bombed to ashes for no goddamn reason! Just for the fun of it. So what did your grandparents do to safe this world. Were they hiding in a cellar (insead of fighting) and now let the world celebrate themselves as the great liberators?

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Memorials don't comemorate the deaths and sacrifice, but what they died for.. In case of the German soldiers there is already such a memorial: Auschwitz.

What a goddamn ignorant way to see it. Never heard such a black&white bullshit! Seems your wisdom has certain limitations! Or maybe the day has come in which you have to look up from your books and bother doing some face-to-face research with former soldiers!

Oooh, it would seem that I touched a nerve there. I'm sorry Albert but I can't give you universal forgiveness. I know you as a German has been bombarded by guilt about things that you had nothing to do with and that yours is a natural emotive reaction. But I can't give you a complete resolution of your WW2 sins as you have no such sins and the WW2 generation was indeed guilty. The soldiers faught for their Fatherland, a fatherland that killed countless of people both in cold blood and as a part of an invasion of Europe.

There was never any confusion about what Hitler wanted. It was not a secret conspiracy. He told everybody in public about the need for 'Lebensraum' as well as the 'Endlösung der Judenfrage'. And a clear majority the German people were behind him.

But we're not even talking about them, but about those who actually faught for Hitler and his system. They may or may not have had a choice but that makes no difference to what they actually did. They faught for a very bad thing. Memorials serve the puropse of remembering the sacrifice that soldiers made to achieve a goal. The goals that the Wehrmacht faught for were Hitler's goals. From a German perspective, not only that, but they failed miserably leading to the complete detruction of Germany. What could be the possible rationale for commemorating these men?

Quote[/b] ]That is exactly what happens if we teach people the Black&White interpretation of WWII. Well done

Well Albert as far as I can see you have done nothing but yelling at people and insulting them. Instead of yelling, why don't you provide your "nuanced" picture of WW2. Do explain to us why we should honor the memories of the German soldiers that lost their lives in WW2.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I stay out of this thread. Loosing objectivity! And I am not a lawyer of Germany, at least I dont feel obliged to take this role here.

[denoir 0]

I stay out of this thread. Loosing objectivity! And I am not a lawyer of Germany, at least I dont feel obliged to take this role here.

Oh come on, you throw around insults and then run away? At least state your opinion and your reasons for it. Not because you are German, but because you expressed a very strong opinion.

[ran 0]

Excuse me.

I don't mean disrespect but not only USA/England (France - that is a joke right?) have fought that war and that battle.

What about Canadians, Polish, Russians and other nations?

Please open an history book next time you'll attempt to sound witty or even intelligent.

This incredible show of historical knowledge pushes me to remind you of them :

the FTFL, FAFL and FNFL all did their share within the allied forces.

FAFL Free French Air Force hunting board for western and eastern front:

344 enemy fighters shot down

46 probable

97 damaged

104 ships sunk

hundreds of gound vehicles and other materiels on all the fronts

The flight groups engaged were :

GC Normandie Niemen (5240 war missions, 273 enemy planes shot down, 36 more probable victories, 45 enemy planes damaged for the loss of 42 pilots out of 96)

GC Ile de France (6029 war missions(8410 combat flight hours) 35 enemy planes shot down, 6 more probable victories, 35 damaged planes, out of 78 pilots, the flight group lost 37)

GC Alsace (4500 war missions, 32 enemy planes shot down, 4 other probable victories and 35 damaged, 21 pilots out of 87 didn't see the end of the war)

GB Lorraine (3500 war missions (900 in Africa and in England), 3000 tons of bombs dropped during the war, 2 enemy planes shot down and 3 damaged and an enemy sub sunk, the flight group lost 35 planes and took 173 casualties)

GB Bretgne (21 war missions, 4504 flight hours, 36 flight crew, 5 killed, 3 prisoners)

The FNFL was strong of 10000 men and participated to the fights on all the operation theaters, from the mediterranean to the pacific, not forgetting the atlantic, the english channel and the north sea. The 1er BFM, the only french unit deployed within the first landing wave to attack the town of Ouistreham was at the date of the 6th of june 1944 177 men strong and had been trained in England by British SAS and SBS specialists.

The FTFL contribution was even bigger than the one of the two FFL (Free French Forces) described before, with an important role in North Africa (along with the british forces, memorable battles are the attack of the Koufra Oasis and the Bir Hakeim battle), in Italy (Monte Cassino) and in France (Paris has been freed mainly by elements of the 2éme DB, free french armored division)

I don't feel like going on with the FFI (interior french forces, the "resistance") whose contribution has been essential to the prerparation of the beach landings in Normandy and in Provence, to the discovery and marking of german V weapons launcbhing sites and to the liberation of french headtowns.

In your own words :

Quote[/b] ]

I ask you to pay respect to every soldier who has fallen on this war as every nation payed its price to win it.

I've never dissed the polish soldiers who have been victim of a defeat even more humiliating than ours, and I won't diss the ones who fought victoriously during the rest of the war as part of the allied air forces and ground forces or the polish people which suffered from the german occupation.

You ridiculize yourself by showing so much ignorance, stupidity and lack of respect, now the right thing to do would be to apologies for that.

[Taconic 0]

The one thing that does slightly annoy me though is how they say that America stopped the tyranny.

I have the utmost respect for all the Americans that served, but they always seem to forget how the British stood alone for 3 years against the Germans, they held back the tyranny and suffered horrific homeland losses.

Yes the Americans were bombed at Pear Harbour but IMHO that is nothing compared to the Battle of Britian and the huge amounts of dammage inflicted by the Luftwaffe.

It just gets me down sometimes how the Americans seem to forget those things, my grandma served in the british army and helped to organise Operation Overlord and i will always be proud of that.

I fail to see anything "annoying" about that.

Did these soldiers not die to stop the spread of the Third Reich and the Japanese Empire?

Did they not then die to stop tyranny?

The fact that the US did not enter the war on day 1 or did not partake in the Battle of Britain has nothing to do with that whatsoever. The memorial is for those Americans that died for the same reasons that any other Ally did. I don't understand why people have to be so sensitive about this kind of thing when it comes to America (and only when it comes to America.) It is an American monument for Americans that died. It's as simple as that. It isn't trying to "take away" from anybody else. It's simply a monument built in the country that these people were from. Sheesh.

[Taconic 0]

I disagree. While all Germans at that time were not Nazis and while it was certainly a minority that were gassing Jews, you'd had to be retarded at that time not to know what Hitler stood for. He had massive support. And those that supported him and his Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer should take the consequences as Ein Volk and Ein Reich.

The average guy in the Wehrmacht had no idea what was going on back in Germany. They had no idea what Hitler was doing. They had no idea what was happening to the prisoners that were being taken once they were far behind German lines. They saw Hitler as a man that picked Germany up off of the ground and turned it into a prosperous nation again. They didn't see him as a madman. There isn't some genetic defect in Germans and Germans alone that make them want to follow lunatics and be party to mass-murder. Use your head.

Quote[/b] ]Fighiting for ones country is not a carte blanch excuse when your country is set on world domination and genocide. I can extend my sympathy to the children in Hitlerjugend that were more or less brain washed. Not however to the adults that knowingly and willingly faught for Hitler and the Third Reich.

The genocide was not common knowledge outside of the upper ranks of the Reich for quite a while.

As for everybody that fought for Hitler being willful parties to mass-murder...

Even Erwin Rommel, a Field Marshal, did not know about Hitler's genocide for a long, long time. When he was finally informed of it, he refused to believe that Hitler could be such a man. When he finally had to face the truth after seeing the rampant anti-semitism in Germany after returning to Africa, he decided to become party to a plot on Hitler's life and a conpiracy to cede France to the Allies. It cost him his life.

Somebody that high up in the chain of command was unaware about what Hitler was doing. Somebody that actually knew Hitler. "Oh," you say, "he could have been lying." Look at Rommel's actions. He was an honorable soldier. His actions in Africa (such as defying direct orders from Hitler about how POWs were to be dealt with) show that this is not a man that would support genocide.

If Rommel did not know about these things, how in the hell could you expect some Private stuck outside of Lenningrad or Kursk, whose only source of news from home is censored mail, to know? Simple: you can't. Even when those in Germany began to become aware of what was transpiring under the Reich, those on the front did not. They couldn't know -- they were too far away.

I can't believe that you'd believe that millions of people would willingly fight to support genocide. They fought because their country asked them to. They fought to unify Germanic people. They fought to eliminate Bolshevikism, which they viewed as a threat. They didn't fight because they were enamored with the idea of stuffing people into ovens and taking over the world.

Quote[/b] ]Memorials don't comemorate the deaths and sacrifice, but what they died for.. In case of the German soldiers there is already such a memorial: Auschwitz.

I find this statement to be incredibly offensive and I'm not even German. That is probably one of the most ill-informed, narrow-minded, and unfair statements that I have ever seen.

[waffendennis 0]

What words can do....

I only started with one thing and it ends with flame bating between various people from various countrys.

I hope we can keep this thread in a nice civil manerd way. Keep in mind that this is about the fallen ones to memorize and not about now.

[denoir 0]

I disagree. While all Germans at that time were not Nazis and while it was certainly a minority that were gassing Jews, you'd had to be retarded at that time not to know what Hitler stood for. He had massive support. And those that supported him and his Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer should take the consequences as Ein Volk and Ein Reich.

The average guy in the Wehrmacht had no idea what was going on back in Germany. They had no idea what Hitler was doing. They had no idea what was happening to the prisoners that were being taken once they were far behind German lines. They saw Hitler as a man that picked Germany up off of the ground and turned it into a prosperous nation again. They didn't see him as a madman.

Of course they knew. Hitler spelled it out already in "Mein Kampf", years before he came to power. He never hid his intentions. On the contarary it's hard to find a speech by him where he doesn't blame the Jews for everything and where he doesn't talk about the "master race". And yes the problem is that they did not see him as a madman. And the concentration camps weren't mass murder according to them because the Jews were "sub-humans".

These views came very early and anybody who doubted his rethorics should have been convinced after the "crystal night" in 1938.

Quote[/b] ]

There isn't some genetic defect in Germans and Germans alone that make them want to follow lunatics and be party to mass-murder.

Of course not. That's why we have seen very similar things around the world. Ex-Yugoslavia, Rwanda to name a few. Or why not take a look at the lovely prison photos from Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]The genocide was not common knowledge outside of the upper ranks of the Reich for quite a while.

The actual details of the camps may not have been known, but Hitler never made any big secret of his intentions and opinions.

Quote[/b] ]Even Erwin Rommel, a Field Marshal, did not know about Hitler's genocide for a long, long time. When he was finally informed of it, he refused to believe that Hitler could be such a man. When he finally had to face the truth after seeing the rampant anti-semitism in Germany after returning to Africa, he decided to become party to a plot on Hitler's life and a conpiracy to cede France to the Allies. It cost him his life.

This is utter bullshit. Pick up a history book. Rommel revolted against Hitler becasuse Hitler was losing the war. It had nothing to do with the extermination of Jews. Rommel may have not taken directly part in the holocaust, but apparently he did not have a problem with the anti-semite ideology.

Quote[/b] ]If Rommel did not know about these things, how in the hell could you expect some Private stuck outside of Lenningrad or Kursk, whose only source of news from home is censored mail, to know? Simple: you can't.

Hitler made his intentions very clear before the war Lebensraum and the master race.

Quote[/b] ]I can't believe that you'd believe that millions of people would willingly fight to support genocide.

You'd be surprised. I was with KFOR in Kosovo in '01 and got a first hand look. A clear majority of the Serbs that I came in contact with considered the Albanians to be animals, not humans. Most of them defeneded the genocide as "self defence" and that it wasn't a big deal since it was only "Albanians". Not all of course, but a great deal of people.

Does that mean that Serbs are murderous maniacs by nature? Of course not. It is because of their circumstances and how they have been politically conditioned. And those that advocate the ethnical cleansing don't consider themselves to be "bad people" because they don't consider their targets to have any human values.

The same processes were at play in Nazi Germany. A majority agreed with Hitler. Not all knew about the concentration camps, but they were a direct consequence of Hitler's opinion - which he expressed in public and that had a majority support.

Quote[/b] ]They fought because their country asked them to. They fought to unify Germanic people. They fought to eliminate Bolshevikism, which they viewed as a threat. They didn't fight because they were enamored with the idea of stuffing people into ovens and taking over the world.

They faoght to get the "master race" the "Lebensraum" it deserved for its superiority.

[MLF 0]

along with the german equiv of the draft

[Pathy 0]

That is exactly what happens if we teach people the Black&White interpretation of WWII. Well done

Your a German, so tell us, what exactly were your grandparents fighting for when they were part of an army that invaded half of Europe and had the other half dancing to thier jackbooted tune ?

Freedom? Independance? Liberation? The greater good?  

Dont give me that attitude pathy. And dont ever accuse my grandparents of having committed crimes during WWII. Or I seriously come over to you and stick a boot right up to your brain.

None of my grandparents had any war involvement. One of my grandfathers was once forced to fly officers and generals in and out of the Kessel because he had a pilots license. But generally my grandparents were industrialists. My grandpa had a big mouth so he got an insider advise to better leave the country or to hide himself somewhere on the countryside. Well it became tougher so he had to escape with only a few belongings direction East away from the Nazi apparatus. And he was later on only allowed back into the american sector because of a broken jaw. He funded several social institutions during the war and with his and his families money an entire city was rebuild, namely Düren. A city that was bombed to ashes for no goddamn reason! Just for the fun of it. So what did your grandparents do to safe this world. Were they hiding in a cellar (insead of fighting) and now let the world celebrate themselves as the great liberators?

I asked you what exactly the motivation was for your grandparents and thier peers to fight if it wasnt for the Nazi party. And youve managed to threatend me with physical violence.

My grandparents? On my mums side, he was a professional soldier since 1932, when war broke out he was part of the BEF, went thru Dunkirk, went to iceland, then fought in Norway. Later went to fight in Africa. Broke a leg before D-day, wasnt back until almost the end of the war. My dads side slightly less interesting, was a truck driver. Saw France, not sure what part because they had removed all the road signs.

Hiding in some cellar. Tsk.......

[MLF 0]

I lost 7 great uncles on my grandad's side out of 10 children, dunno about my grandma's side.

[Pathy 0]

Woah thats alot of great uncles to loose.....what were they in? (units)

[MLF 0]

im not entirely sure, i know alot of them died at cassino, i never really asked as my gradparents what they were in, i do rememeber them having alot of medals and a bayonet.

[Pathy 0]

Yeh Cassino chewed alot of men up huh?

I know someone who was at cassino, he managed to survive, but, it was one of those split second things....you know, if he'd gone back with the prisoners.........

[MLF 0]

Yeh Cassino chewed alot of men up huh?

I know someone who was at cassino, he managed to survive, but, it was one of those split second things....you know, if he'd gone back with the prisoners.........

yea it did indeed, my 8th great uncle saw the aftermath of the Monestry bombing, he came back a very different man

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

BRITISH Soldiers NOT ENGLISH.

Ignorant ...... kids.

[Pathy 0]

Who was it who said English?

[MLF 0]

BRITISH Soldiers NOT ENGLISH.

Ignorant ...... kids.

who is that dirrected at.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

People who use 'english' to mean 'British' or 'England' to mean 'The UK' - at least two of which tools in this thread.

[Taconic 0]

Of course they knew. Hitler spelled it out already in "Mein Kampf", years before he came to power. He never hid his intentions. On the contarary it's hard to find a speech by him where he doesn't blame the Jews for everything and where he doesn't talk about the "master race". And yes the problem is that they did not see him as a madman. And the concentration camps weren't mass murder according to them because the Jews were "sub-humans".

Jews were indeed blamed for many problems. This is not isolated to Germany, either. They were blamed for the Black Death and persecuted then as well. Should I hold you and whatever country you're from accountable for that?

At any rate, would you mind pointing out in which speech Hitler said bluntly that he planned to murder them to solve the "problem?" I'm afraid that you'll have a certain amount of difficulty doing that because, to my knowledge, it never happened.

The German people were indeed looking for a scapegoat - Germany had been badly beaten in WWI. The pride of the German people was badly damaged by other European nations (arguably intentionally.) These were indeed factors that lead to WWII and the Hollocaust.

However, I have never seen any indication that the average German (we are not talking about SS uber-Nazis here) had any idea of the extent that Hitler planned to go in this arena. Never. Considering that you clearly weren't alive at the time and pretty much every account from those that were goes against your thoughts on the subject, I think I'm going to have to side with them.

Quote[/b] ]Or why not take a look at the lovely prison photos from Iraq.

Yes, because a handful of people abusing their authority is tantamount to regimes that have commited genocide. I can't say that I'm surprised to see an anti-American comment like this.

Quote[/b] ]The actual details of the camps may not have been known, but Hitler never made any big secret of his intentions and opinions.

Again, show me a speech where Hitler openly proclaimed to the German people that his plan was to eradicate the Jews. If you can do this, I will give your opinion more credence.

Quote[/b] ]This is utter bullshit. Pick up a history book. Rommel revolted against Hitler becasuse Hitler was losing the war. It had nothing to do with the extermination of Jews. Rommel may have not taken directly part in the holocaust, but apparently he did not have a problem with the anti-semite ideology.

I suggest that you pick up a history book. I did several reports on Rommel back in school. I also recently watched a documentry about his life.

Quote[/b] ]The same processes were at play in Nazi Germany. A majority agreed with Hitler. Not all knew about the concentration camps, but they were a direct consequence of Hitler's opinion - which he expressed in public and that had a majority support.

You are correct to an extent. My point is that I can't see the German people supporting him if they knew the full extent of his plan.

Quote[/b] ]They faoght to get the "master race" the "Lebensraum" it deserved for its superiority.

Because every German soldier was a Nazi, right? Sigh.

I think it's in very poor taste to say that all of the millions of German men that died died because they supported genocide.

[DracoPaladore 0]

Of course they knew. Hitler spelled it out already in "Mein Kampf", years before he came to power.

Even so, I don't beleive the average citizen in Germany before his rise could afford that book. I beleive the book was made before he rose in polotics nad people still needed an arm full of money to buy bread at the shop.