Grizzlie 0 Posted May 30, 2004 Be carefull Pathy, otherwise nex topic will be about your memorial Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pathy 0 Posted May 30, 2004 Lol read my sig....might be sooner than you think Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grizzlie 0 Posted May 30, 2004 Now serious part. This discuss showed me that how much we have lost during Cold War, and that Germans r victims of it. They really did not have time to think about wwII. From one hand - communistic propaganda, where Germany was "orderly boy to kick", country dividing... From the other - they were needed for Western countries as ally in eventually wwIII which caused "keeping one eye closed" on some things, trying of building demokracy (which is not "strong side" of Germans), rebuilding own country. It was really big mess... Disscuss like this should take place 50 years ago. I came from Poland, so for me it is really hard to think about Germans as victims of war, i would tell they r victims of system they made. I can only hope that there ever will not be circumstances which would cause Germans to forget lesson of war. And on main topic - it is not only to remember all those US soldiers who died during wwII era, it should remind us that peace is not given, sometimes u need to pay with blood to keep it. And for politicians - they r making mistakes, and young boys and girls r paying for that, so they should really think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0 Posted May 30, 2004 Every nation has its "thing"...want to anger ANY yank, tell them thier military isnt the best....want to piss off a Brit......tell them that the yanks won WW2 single handedly.....Germans.....start talking to a German about the role of your average German in WW2 related to the Nazi's and your asking for trouble Or tell a Scotsman, Irishman (N.I. or not) or Welshman that they are 'english' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DracoPaladore 0 Posted May 30, 2004 For a Canadian, the best way to insult us is to go after our beer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Major Fubar 0 Posted May 31, 2004 ...heading pretty offtopic here...pull it back more towards the topic title or we'll have to shut it down... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DarkLight 0 Posted May 31, 2004 And for DarkLight. Noone is asking to glorify the sacrifice of the german soldiers, noone requests to forget about the cruelties committed by WEHRMACHT soldiers, but simply to make people understand that D-Day is not (only) a great HEROIC event that gave people finally the occasion to "FIGHT EVIL", to bravely DIE for ones country, but that it is a day in which thousands and thousands of teenager slaughtered each other. If you want to celebrate the victory over Nazi germany well fine then go organise a big marching parade, a great great fire-work, let your national military do some air-show presentations and a little show off in the local stadium. Fine with me. Calm down man... You don't really understand what i wanted to say... that's probably because of my bad english but let's just accept that some people on this forum don't speak english extremely well... In my eyes, albert, every life is worth the same... Personally i don't give a fuck if you're a Nazi, an Iraqi soldier, a US navy seal, a soldier from the SAS, an innocent (wo)man, a child or an animal (yes an animal too) To me, every person that i mentioned deserves the same amount of respect. And i don't care if it's a Nazi or any Allied soldier that died on the battlefield. It still is a human being with just one life and a family just like every other human being on this stupid planet. War is never heroic if you ask me, war is the most fucked up thing there is on this planet... But yes, the only way to defend is to fight back... And what do you get then? Thousands and thousands of teenagers slaughtering eachother... on both sides... Oh and i don't think that anyone should blame anybody that fought during the war. I wasn't there back then so i'm not going to judge anyone... It's easy to bitch about what happened, it's always easy to bitch about stuff you don't have a fucking clue about... But in the end we got nothing to say at all... I never celebrate victory, not when it has been won with war... You might not have noticed yet but i fucking hate war and anything that even comes close to it... I celebrate the freedom of our people and i remember the death of each living thing that died in that war. Enemy or allied... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
der bastler 0 Posted May 31, 2004 Memorials don't comemorate the deaths and sacrifice, but what they died for.. In case of the German soldiers there is already such a memorial: Auschwitz.I find this statement to be incredibly offensive and I'm not even German. That is probably one of the most ill-informed, narrow-minded, and unfair statements that I have ever seen. Nothing new. Germans are used to such statements (that can be dangerous, but that is another topic). Sometimes I do not understand why they allowed the foundation of the second republic in 1949. Sometimes I think they should have kept four sectors and I would be citizen of the british-german member of the Commonwealth. *shrugs* Back on-topic. Do I get this right? The WW2 Memorial is opened several years after the well-known Vietnam War Memorial (The Wall) or the Korean War Memorial? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
red oct 2 Posted June 1, 2004 you would be correct don't know why they waited till now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Winters 1 Posted June 1, 2004 you would be correct don't know why they waited till now Because it was tied up in endless political debating for more than 10 years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DracoPaladore 0 Posted June 1, 2004 Just FYI to anyone: Right now on the History Channel is a show on D-Day. In fact, they're going to be showing shows all week on D-Day. Just FYI. Right now its about Juno and the Canadians versus the 12th SS. Might not be American at the moment, but it still helps to know about all aspects of that war. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
der bastler 0 Posted June 1, 2004 Just FYI to anyone:Right now on the History Channel is a show on D-Day. In fact, they're going to be showing shows all week on D-Day. Just FYI. Right now its about Juno and the Canadians versus the 12th SS. Might not be American at the moment, but it still helps to know about all aspects of that war. Well, on June 4th german TV station Kabel 1 shows "The Longest Day" Since Mai 11th the Second German Television (ZDF) is showing the series "Die Befreiung" ("The Liberation") every tuesday, starting with D-Day... ...and ending with "the final act" On June 6th the ZDF will show the memorial act live from France. Btw: The ZDF is broadcasting many historical documentaries all over the year. They got Prof. Guido Knopp... "German FOX" Pro7 ( ) presents D-Day shows all week long, starting with "Private Ryan" and own documentaries about D-Day (e.g. about the lost tanks) on May 30th, ending with the BBC D-Day documentary on June 5th. I guess we'll see "Tora Tora Tora" on December 7th... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted June 1, 2004 I guess we'll see "Tora Tora Tora" on December 7th... Sure beats "Elvis in Hawaii". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albert Schweitzer 10 Posted June 1, 2004 Yeah, but on german TV they are saying that we won the war. Very confusing..can someone put the facts right for me please? Â Â Â Â No seriously. We have seen some great documentaries during the last week, invterviews of soldiers that stood face to face against each other and tons of new film material. Very touching Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DracoPaladore 0 Posted June 1, 2004 No seriously. We have seen some great documentaries during the last week, invterviews of soldiers that stood face to face against each other and tons of new film material. Â Very touching Documentrys I find much more enjoyable when I am hearing the words from the mouth of someone who was there. Really touching, and no one can't help feel some sort of respect and emotion when the veteren recalls what happened around them on that day and others like it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Winters 1 Posted June 1, 2004 No seriously. We have seen some great documentaries during the last week, invterviews of soldiers that stood face to face against each other and tons of new film material. Â Very touching Documentrys I find much more enjoyable when I am hearing the words from the mouth of someone who was there. Really touching, and no one can't help feel some sort of respect and emotion when the veteren recalls what happened around them on that day and others like it. I thinks its amazing how some of these guys can recall these events without a moments hesitation, it shows you just how much of an impression was left on them. My grandfather is over 90 (he served on a destroyer in the pacific) and sometimes he doesnt recognize his own family but ask him about the war and his mind is as sharp as a tack. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albert Schweitzer 10 Posted June 1, 2004 Many historians ask themselves the question why the americans value so little the battle of the Hürthgen forrest which is about 20km from my home. It was a shocking battle and definetly more GIs died here on D-day.(55.000 americans and 13.000 germans died for this strange mission. The americans assumed the germans would blow up the nearby water-reservoirs whereas the germans say that with the american force of armoured vehicules they could have easily surpassed without bothering. Around my city and especially my house which is near a forrest you can still easily find bullets, helmets, bellts and other stuff. Shortly after this battle the germans pulled together their last amoured forces and tried a last counterattack. It suceeded partially and the germans left behind a trace of masacred civillians. But when the americans blew up the fuel depot the germans tried to reach the attack stopped and the last big battle was over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DracoPaladore 0 Posted June 1, 2004 No seriously. We have seen some great documentaries during the last week, invterviews of soldiers that stood face to face against each other and tons of new film material. Â Very touching Documentrys I find much more enjoyable when I am hearing the words from the mouth of someone who was there. Really touching, and no one can't help feel some sort of respect and emotion when the veteren recalls what happened around them on that day and others like it. I thinks its amazing how some of these guys can recall these events without a moments hesitation, it shows you just how much of an impression was left on them. My grandfather is over 90 (he served on a destroyer in the pacific) and sometimes he doesnt recognize his own family but ask him about the war and his mind is as sharp as a tack. There are definate moments of silence as they recall these moments, though. One such moment was when he was trying to describe without breaking down about a colleague he had who had to carry the bangelore onto Juno, and the result was an explosion when the tube was hit. Whats worse that there are even more moments like this. Really leaves an impression when you see these people talking about these events. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hellfish6 7 Posted June 1, 2004 Many historians ask themselves the question why the americans value so little the battle of the Hürthgen forrest which is about 20km from my home. It was a shocking battle and definetly more GIs died here on D-day.(55.000 americans and 13.000 germans died for this strange mission. The americans assumed the germans would blow up the nearby water-reservoirs whereas the germans say that with the american force of armoured vehicules they could have easily surpassed without bothering. Around my city and especially my house which is near a forrest you can still easily find bullets, helmets, bellts and other stuff. Shortly after this battle the germans pulled together their last amoured forces and tried a last counterattack. It suceeded partially and the germans left behind a trace of masacred civillians. But when the americans blew up the fuel depot the germans tried to reach the attack stopped and the last big battle was over. The Battle of Huertgen (American spelling) Forest is not often touched upon because it was such a disaster. No American likes to think that lives were wasted needlessly, and since there were so many other battles that were victories, most people pay attention to them - like D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, etc. It's also why many people don't pay attention to other debacles like the Philippines in '41-'42, Kasserine Pass and Salerno (or is it Anzio?). Oddly enough, Operation Market-Garden is still a pretty popular battle in the States, probably because we can blame the failure of that mission not on our paratroopers, but instead on Montgomery. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grizzlie 0 Posted June 1, 2004 I'm afraid we can blame media... U know, "Market Garden" was big, fast, planes, gliders, para's... - like good action movie. And other battles u mentioned - Philippines - rain, jungle, and movements of armies counted in yards a day, or battle of ONE forest... Not sexy at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albert Schweitzer 10 Posted June 1, 2004 Many historians ask themselves the question why the americans value so little the battle of the Hürthgen forrest which is about 20km from my home. It was a shocking battle and definetly more GIs died here on D-day.(55.000 americans and 13.000 germans died for this strange mission. The americans assumed the germans would blow up the nearby water-reservoirs whereas the germans say that with the american force of armoured vehicules they could have easily surpassed without bothering. Around my city and especially my house which is near a forrest you can still easily find bullets, helmets, bellts and other stuff. Shortly after this battle the germans pulled together their last amoured forces and tried a last counterattack. It suceeded partially and the germans left behind a trace of masacred civillians. But when the americans blew up the fuel depot the germans tried to reach the attack stopped and the last big battle was over. The Battle of Huertgen (American spelling) Forest is not often touched upon because it was such a disaster. No American likes to think that lives were wasted needlessly, and since there were so many other battles that were victories, most people pay attention to them  - like D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, etc. It's also why many people don't pay attention to other debacles like the Philippines in '41-'42, Kasserine Pass and Salerno (or is it Anzio?). Oddly enough, Operation Market-Garden is still a pretty popular battle in the States, probably because we can blame the failure of that mission not on our paratroopers, but instead on Montgomery. Well, the theme of it was partially touched in Band of Brothers. it may have been a desaster but it still was a victory for the americans. sorry, even in German it is Hürtgen, my mistake (ü = ue). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
red oct 2 Posted June 1, 2004 On a slightly related note, did anybody watch that A&E special w/ Tom Selleck "Ike: Countdown to D-Day"? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
