Mousetrap

[thedaisycutter 0]

I am a student at The University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology and I am working on a project for a 3D computer games controller. By “3D controller†I am referring to an input device that allows the movement and view or aim within a 3D game to be controlled effectively.

I am starting to find that the keyboard and mouse combination is becoming restrictive with the latest games, particularly 3D shooters and strategy games. Some companies have produced 3D controllers such as the Spacetec “Spaceorbâ€, the Logitech “Cyberman 2†(released several years ago), and more recently the Microsoft “Dual Strikeâ€, but they don’t seem to be particularly popular, nor have they received particularly good reviews. However, I feel that using one hand on mouse to control aiming and firing, and the other on the keyboard to control running, crouching, jumping, leaning, changing weapons, and issuing commands etc, is becoming more difficult, and I think there is a requirement for a 3D controller that performs effectively. So far, none of the manufacturers seem to have managed this.

As part of the university project, I am interested in whether there is a requirement for such a device if it was designed and implemented correctly and I'd be interested to know what people think. Also, I would be really greatful if you could fill in a short (6 questions) questionnaire at

3D Controller Questionnaire

Your input is greatly appreciated,

Sam

[Major Fubar 0]

Hi, welcome to the forums.

Just so you know, the "General" forum is for general OFP discussion...topics related to games, but not OFP, go in the offtopic section.  

[void_false 1]

heh. nice idea but i satisfied with mouse + keyboard. it is easy to use and cheap to buy

what i really wanted to try is that virtual reality where you wear special clothes and go inside some sphere. where you feel like you really there.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Mouse and keyboard is the most flexible controller around, offering high precision (with a decent mouse) and ease of use.

IMO 3d controllers will need to get much much better before anyone uses them seriously.

The game world is technically 3d but the interface (screen) is 2D.... so until 3d displays arrive I don't see a need for 3d user interfaces.

With my current setup I can move in any direction, look around in a different direction (in OFP), issue radio orders to several different AI and talk on voice to the human players, change weapons and shoot them...

This is due to the huge amount of buttons available on the keyboard without having to twist fingers unnaturally (to an extent) - it's also why serious gamers don't use those stupid split keyboards - not enough keys in reach.

A new 3d interface would have to perform better than that quickly and easily - ie without having to set up binds etc.

[thedaisycutter 0]

Do you not find that your fingers on are having to do a bit too much? I find I might be able to cover quite a lot of the keyboard but when I have to be moving as well as shooting, changing weapons, and crouching, and issuing commands, all at the same time, it gets a bit awkward. With something like Quake it is just about manageable, but Flashpoint in particular is much more involved and more complex. Or am I alone in my inaptitude?

[joltan 0]

The point is: everyone has a mouse and keyboard, everyone is used to these input devices and most games can be controlled intuitively as the basic controls are mostly the same (or at least they can be configured to fit your taste).

As long as 3d contollers don't have a similar wide range of uses (i.e. they replace the mouse) and get MUCH cheaper (less then a cheap joystick) they will not be very widespread. Why? because most people are not hardcore gamers and most games can be controlled quite good by the traditional means. People just won't shell out the money for something they don't need that much.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Do you not find that your fingers on are having to do a bit too much? I find I might be able to cover quite a lot of the keyboard but when I have to be moving as well as shooting, changing weapons, and crouching, and issuing commands, all at the same time, it gets a bit awkward. With something like Quake it is just about manageable, but Flashpoint in particular is much more involved and more complex. Or am I alone in my inaptitude?

Not really, and certainly no more than they have to do on any 3d controller I've ever seen. With the keyboard you can use every finger and thumb to press buttons: each finger/ thumb has between 7 and 10 keys they can reach (obviously they overlap though) - with a controller you have to hold, that is reduced because you need some just to hold the controller. With a controller attached to your hand, it's harder to use the keyboard when you need to (eg typing messages.)

Adding to what Joltan said, they would not only have to be cheaper and as easy to use as a mouse and keyboard, they would also have to be better (more accurate) - because a mouse and keyboard is standard equipment that comes with a PC.

[deathsai 0]

The only time when I find the keyboard restrictive is in flight sims, where you often have to manipulate your aircraft to the fullest. But it will be a long time before the mouse and keyboard will ever be anything but the best for FPSes.

[Skewballzz 0]

I noticed that its just practice. After a week of playing, the keyboard setup I have become second nature, and I can do things without even thinking about em or moving. All it is is remaping your controls so they fit you best.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

A device to facilitate the movements of a character is not required. Since all "interesting" actions that a in-game character can undertake are and should be limited.

However I suppose that in the future more and more games will be listening to verbal commands. This does not only facilitate the "complicated" navigation of some games but it offers endless amounts of addditional commands. And those commands dont have to be learned by heart, the computer will be up to interpret the words and translate them into an ingame command!

1 All, Hit the dirt!

[red oct 2]

Quote[/b] ]Do you not find that your fingers on are having to do a bit too much? I find I might be able to cover quite a lot of the keyboard but when I have to be moving as well as shooting, changing weapons, and crouching, and issuing commands, all at the same time, it gets a bit awkward. With something like Quake it is just about manageable, but Flashpoint in particular is much more involved and more complex. Or am I alone in my inaptitude?

actually, yea i do feel like my fingures are working too much. one thing that buged me about OFP, was that annoying scroll menu. it was a pain in the ass having to scroll through several options w/ my mouse wheel while your getting shot at trying to get your character to get inside a tank for protection. why couldn't bis just have made a hotkey for a general action. then theres the comand menu for your troops. i like being able to control my men, but i really hate this system in the game that lets you do it. it feels as if i constintly have to watch over my men like a parent watching a todler in a antique shop. its really imo overburdening for me to keep screwing around w/ this menu, shuffling through 12 different comands just to tell a wounded soldier to go and get treated by a medic or to tell my men to go pick up ammo when he runs out. its not bad as long as you have maybe 6 or less men under your command, but when you have 12 men following you plus a area full of vehicles ammo and weapon boxes and corpses w/ stuff you can take than you have this command menu that's just a big annoying mess.  of course it would also help greatly if the next installment of flashpoint will have the AI act based on common sense. if a soldier gets hurt, he'll automaticly go to a medic or if he's out of ammo, he'll automaticly pick up a AK off of a dead enemy rather than keep bugging me that he's hurt or out of ammo. i want to be able to control my men w/out having to feel like im constently baby sitting them. i want to be able to issue commands through a simplified effective system. something like what Freedom Fighters had, only a bit more complex. i wonder what the command menu is going to be like on the Xbox.

[void_false 1]

and if soldier doesnt find espessialy AK near him?

Just imagine what would happen if AI will automatically run towards each other to heal. you are sitting in the ambush waiting for convoy, then two of them rushing out of that ambush and healing each outher in middle of a road.

Or if you assault town and some AI shot all ammunition, he will just run into town to pick up some ammo. I dont think he will survive much longer.

I think if BIS makes it like you said, i will crash my keyboard into display. I will swear on 3 langueges if AI will behave automatically as you said.

[deathsai 0]

That's what behavior is for. Stealth would have him stop complaining and just wait. Combat would have him look for close medics but not run towards enemies to get ammo. Aware and Safe would have him just do what he wants with ammo or medics.

[thedaisycutter 0]

Even if the keyboard and mouse combination is largely adequate, maybe this is because developers have been restricted by the limitations imposed by what is currently the best way of controlling many games? In many ways this seems to be highlighted by the limitations of A.I.

I find A.I can be very frustrating because it is often badly implemented, probably because it is difficult to implement. In Flashpoint I think they didn’t do a bad job and stuck to the limitations of their code. On the downside the command system was quite awkward to use.

I have a friend writing A.I. software that gives results that come fairly close to the definition of the term. “Intelligenceâ€. Computer game A.I. does not actually learn, it is just a set of programmed responses, maybe “Virtual Intelligence†would be a better term. Until actual A.I. is implemented in computer games, command structures will have to be either greatly simple to allow ease of use, or detailed so as to prevent frustrating non-player character behaviour.

However, even with reasonable A.I., an effective command system would be far from simple. I used to be in the army and although my experience was hardly massive, I know that the range commands issued to a squad of soldiers, just for the them to follow some of the simple standard operating procedures, is extensive.

Hopefully a 3D controller would do more than just put more inputs at the users disposal, but doing so would surely give developers a bit more freedom. The easier you make it issue more commands, the greater the number of commands the developer can implement, and the more realistic and immersive the game playing experience becomes?

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

The upcoming game based on the Band of Brothers series/ book -Brothers in Arms- looks to have a very good command and control system (looks to - at the moment.)

I really don't see how a 3d controller would change AI or controlling AI at all. Especially not in a infantry/ land warfare based game; *Maybe* it would help in games like homeworld. But when you are in a game like flashpoint 3d controllers seem useless.

We don't use 3d controllers to give orders in the military: its either direct indication or using a map, both of which are essentially 2d orders in a 3d world.

[thedaisycutter 0]

Sorry, I don’t think I explained myself very well…

I am not suggesting you would use the 3D functions of the controller to issue orders, and am not saying that soldiers are given 3D orders. However, although largely constrained to the surface of the earth, you move around in a 3D way, crouching, going prone, leaning, crawling. Also, would it not be fairly difficult if in a real battle situation you could only shoot in the direction you were moving?

I started talking specifically about A.I. in response to the previous points, what I am arguing is that a 3D controller could allow more intuitive control of the 3D environment and consequently free up more functions for the actions such as issuing commands.

[Doc. Zaius 0]

Filled out the survey.

Best of luck with the project.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I am not suggesting you would use the 3D functions of the controller to issue orders, and am not saying that soldiers are given 3D orders. However, although largely constrained to the surface of the earth, you move around in a 3D way, crouching, going prone, leaning, crawling. Also, would it not be fairly difficult if in a real battle situation you could only shoot in the direction you were moving?

You can shoot in a different direction than you are moving in 99% of FPS games..... and we can already control the 3d movements quickly, accurately and intuituively without a 3d controller.

Quote[/b] ]what I am arguing is that a 3D controller could allow more intuitive control of the 3D environment

How, exactly?