Documentary about the wilhelm gustloff

[Longinius 1]

There was a very interesting documentary yesterday on Discovery about the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff. I can honestly say this was the first time I have heard about it, which made it all the more interesting to me.

In short, the Gustloff was a ship carrying German refugees during the end of WWII that was sunk by a Russian sub in the Baltic sea. On board were some 10 000 refugees, around 900 survived, making it the biggest maritime disaster ever.

http://www.feldgrau.com/wilhelmgustloff.html

Other interesting things I didnt know about from the documentary:

1 - During the cold war russian divers looted and destroyed many WWII shipwrecks in the Baltic, looking for Nazi loot and military documents. This happened to the wreck of the Gustloff. It was looted and then partially destroyed with demo charges.

2 - There is computer software that can simulate crowd reactions during catastrophic scenarios. Developed by a company in London, you can simulate various disasters and the program calculates number of survivors, how survivors moved about the disaster site, where they were during different stages of the timeline etc. Very interesting.

[Architekt 0]

I read about this in Anthony Beevor's book "Berlin 1945" and it was also the first I'd heard of it considering it was the world's largest maritime disaster.

And apparently the sub commander got the Order of Lenin for it.

[theavonlady 2]

There was a very interesting documentary yesterday on Discovery about the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff. I can honestly say this was the first time I have heard about it, which made it all the more interesting to me.

I never knew about it either. Reminded me of the sinking of the Struma in 1942. There, too, a Soviet sub did the sinking, though possibly by mistake.

[Longinius 1]

Talk about getting shafted. Jewish survivors of Nazi terror getting torpedoed by Russians.

[theavonlady 2]

Talk about getting shafted. Jewish survivors of Nazi terror getting torpedoed by Russians.

With thanks mainly to the British (Albert, I hope that makes your day!).

[theavonlady 2]

1 - During the cold war russian divers looted and destroyed many WWII shipwrecks in the Baltic, looking for Nazi loot and military documents. This happened to the wreck of the Gustloff. It was looted and then partially destroyed with demo charges.

Why did they set charges to it? Navigation obstacle?

[Longinius 1]

According to the documentary they did it simply to destroy the wrecks. Either to remove evidence of their involvement in specific attacks, or to simply prevent anyone else from getting to whatever they thought was there.

In the case of this wreck, the demolitions destroyed the points of impact of the torpedoes, so it was impossible to see on the wreck exactly where it was hit and what damage was made.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Talk about getting shafted. Jewish survivors of Nazi terror getting torpedoed by Russians.

With thanks mainly to the British (Albert, I hope that makes your day!).

No, that doesnt make my day.    But as I said the story of the Exodus is a one that needs to be told. Being a survivor of a concentration camp on your way to Israel...then you are forbidden to go off-board, the ship is then send back to europe (conditions on the ship are no better than in a concentration camp). France offers every jew a french passport still everyone only has one destination in mind "Israel". In the end the british send the ship back to germany. The jews are kicked off the ship with the tale that there is a bomb on board. All jews then had to gather up in guarded camps, some of which had been constructed by the Nazis. Same guard-towers, different guards...and then Israel became an independant country! Happy End!

[theavonlady 2]

But as I said the story of the Exodus is a one that needs to be told.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Sorry, but to me this looks like a shitty 50ies-60ies film! During this era there was no such thing as historical precision. So this film is probably some heroical US/UK portrait

They just broadcasted a big big documentary on the EXODUS on German TV (with lots of unpublished material and many actual passengers), a very touching story. I dont like the facts to be torn apart by Hollywood, sorry but their films just Suck big time. Either you tell the story how it was to honour people or you leave it. But you dont sell peoples death for money. And that is what Hollywood is doing when making films about historical scenarios.

[brgnorway 0]

Sorry, but to me this looks like a shitty 50ies-60ies film! During this era there was no such thing as historical precision. So this film is probably some heroical US/UK portrait

They just broadcasted a big big documentary on the EXODUS on German TV (with lots of unpublished material and many actual passengers), a very touching story. I dont like the facts to be torn apart by Hollywood, sorry but their films just Suck big time. Either you tell the story how it was to honour people or you leave it. But you dont sell peoples death for money. And that is what Hollywood is doing when making films about historical scenarios.

No, the film "Exodus" is a film based on the book(s) "Exodus" by Leon Uris. A very good book I have to say even though I prefer a more balanced view on the arabic population than Uris presents. This book actually was my first taste of making my own thoughts about the middle east problem some 24 years ago. I was always very firm on the rights of the people of Israel to hold their own (historical) land - but of course - this is a moderated view today  

Read the book - it's a good book with lot's of history and a good starting point to get a grip on how the jewish israelis with their kibbutz/settler mentality view their own post war history.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

We have a huuuuuuuuuge bookshop in our town (only 400.000 citizens), I will give the book a few minutes to check it out!

[brgnorway 0]

We have a huuuuuuuuuge bookshop in our town (only 400.000 citizens), I will give the book a few minutes to check it out!

hehe.......add 100 000 and you have our capital Oslo

Why do I sometimes get the feeling of norwegians being insignificant hehe

[Bernadotte 0]

But as I said the story of the Exodus is a one that needs to be told. Being a survivor of a concentration camp on your way to Israel...then you are forbidden to go off-board, the ship is then send back to europe ...

Then perhaps you should tell it properly.

Israel did not exist at the time.  The survivors were travelling to Palestine.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

if you quote you should quote properly!

Quote[/b] ]But as I said the story of the Exodus is a one that needs to be told. Being a survivor of a concentration camp on your way to Israel...then you are forbidden to go off-board, the ship is then send back to europe (conditions on the ship are no better than in a concentration camp). France offers every jew a french passport still everyone only has one destination in mind "Israel". In the end the british send the ship back to germany. The jews are kicked off the ship with the tale that there is a bomb on board. All jews then had to gather up in guarded camps, some of which had been constructed by the Nazis. Same guard-towers, different guards...and then Israel became an independant country! Happy End!  !

[Bernadotte 0]

if you quote you should quote properly!

Quote[/b] ]But as I said the story of the Exodus is a one that needs to be told. Being a survivor of a concentration camp on your way to Israel...then you are forbidden to go off-board, the ship is then send back to europe (conditions on the ship are no better than in a concentration camp). France offers every jew a french passport still everyone only has one destination in mind "Israel". In the end the british send the ship back to germany. The jews are kicked off the ship with the tale that there is a bomb on board. All jews then had to gather up in guarded camps, some of which had been constructed by the Nazis. Same guard-towers, different guards...and then Israel became an independant country! Happy End!  !

In one of your sentences you wrote, "Being a survivor of a concentration camp on your way to Israel...then you are forbidden to go off-board, the ship is then send back to europe (conditions on the ship are no better than in a concentration camp)."

How can you claim that they were on their way to Israel at a time when Israel didn't exist?

Perhaps you should have said, "Being a survivor of a concentration camp on your way to Palestine...then you are forbidden to go off-board, the ship is then send back to europe (conditions on the ship are no better than in a concentration camp)."

As I said, please try to tell the story properly.  

[brgnorway 0]

Oh Albert - before you read it you should keep in mind that it is written by an author that is rather biased. The book is of course political and the palestinians are refered to simply as "arabs" - and not very highly praised. An excuse for this is that the book is written in the 50's when most of us were quite guilt ridden and diaspora was the fasion for the surviving jews (hardly surprising) . Still a good read though!

[Bernadotte 0]

Oh Albert - before you read it you should keep in mind that it is written by an author that is rather biased. The book is of course political and the palestinians are refered to simply as "arabs" - and not very highly praised. An excuse for this is that the book is written in the 50's when most of us were quite guilt ridden and diaspora was the fasion for the surviving jews (hardly surprising) . Still a good read though!

The film's director, Otto Preminger, felt the book was unfair to arabs and tried to correct that in the film version. The book's author, Leon Uris, later accused Preminger of ruining his book.

[brgnorway 0]

Oh Albert - before you read it you should keep in mind that it is written by an author that is rather biased. The book is of course political and the palestinians are refered to simply as "arabs" - and not very highly praised. An excuse for this is that the book is written in the 50's when most of us were quite guilt ridden and diaspora was the fasion for the surviving jews (hardly surprising) . Still a good read though!

The film's director, Otto Preminger, felt the book was unfair to arabs and tried to correct that in the film version.  The book's author, Leon Uris, later accused Preminger of ruining his book.

I'm not surprised. However, what is fair or not is unimportant as long as it provides a good basis for understanding diaspora and settler mentality.

[theavonlady 2]

How can you claim that they were on their way to Israel at a time when Israel didn't exist?

So? Call it Palestine at the time. Who cares?!

You love harping on this point over and over again. Tell us again, what relevance it has? But don't get all excited reminding us.

And to Jews, it's been called the land of Israel since biblical times. "Eretz Yisrael" - "The Land of Israel " is the term used in most religious writings and certainly but the millions of European Jews when speaking, reading or writing in Yiddish.

[theavonlady 2]

However, what is fair or not is unimportant as long as it provides a good basis for understanding diaspora and settler mentality.

Are people who move to Norway called settlers, too?

Reading some of today's forum posts gives one an understanding of European anti-Israel mentality.

[brgnorway 0]

However, what is fair or not is unimportant as long as it provides a good basis for understanding diaspora and settler mentality.

Are people who move to Norway called settlers, too?

Reading some of today's forum posts gives one an understanding of European anti-Israel mentality.

What's anti-israel in what I wrote?

My point is that if people make an effort to understand how diaspora appeard for jews in the postwar period they have to read about it. I have suggested before that Leon Uris "Exodus" is a good place to start. No anti-israeli feelings on my behalf! The kibbutz movement had a strong identity with the belief of "coming back" to their holy land. They organised themselves in small relatively independent communities formed by a new identity. One cannot see this as only "occupation" - which by the way is my piont! I have nothing against the establishment of Israel - and have said so numerous times.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I think it is not soooo wrong to call it is Israel since it was the land that God promised to Abraham and his descendants, it was just occupied teritory!

[theavonlady 2]

However, what is fair or not is unimportant as long as it provides a good basis for understanding diaspora and settler mentality.

Are people who move to Norway called settlers, too?

Reading some of today's forum posts gives one an understanding of European anti-Israel mentality.

What's anti-israel in what I wrote?

My point is that if people make an effort to understand how diaspora appeard for jews in the postwar period they have to read about it. I have suggested before that Leon Uris "Exodus" is a good place to start. No anti-israeli feelings on my behalf! The kibbutz movement had a strong identity with the belief of "coming back" to their holy land. They organised themselves in small relatively independent communities formed by a new identity.

What is the "settler mentality" of people who reached Israel's shores and moved to cities and towns?

Due immigrant Norwegians have a "settler mentality"?

Quote[/b] ]One cannot see this as only "occupation" - which by the way is my piont!

You mean it was "occupation" and "something else"?

[theavonlady 2]

I think it is not soooo wrong to call it is Israel since it was the land that God promised to Abraham and his descendants, it was just occupied teritory!  

Really?

In pre-state Israel, - oops........................

In mandate Palestine, what was occupied territory?