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vektorboson

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I don't know why you CSLA people are so emotional...

Maybe it is because we are not respected. We are working hard 2 years with entusiasm and after release we fall down to the ground and lost our power because of criticism, negative comments and disrespect of our work (not only in this forum).  .... it is my personal feeling.

That I feel very sad about. I really enjoy CSLA and think you should be praised for all the hard work. Lately I feel very apprehensive about release of our mod after seeing reaction to other mods....I just know there will hundreds of nasty comments.  sad_o.gif

Please do give me a call if this happens i would love to flame the buggers biggrin_o.gif , i mean one Gulfwar mod and if it gets flamed too then i'll be more then happy to flame the bitching dumbnuts back.

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Quote[/b] ]Instead of switching to an open method of addon developing where all addon resources are free to use for other addon makers (with crediting), we are going the other way, people want to build up their egos instead by restricting the user's rights in using an addon

I mentioned this before in a previous addon thread; only my comments were slightly more inflammatory and emotionally driven.

It's stuff such as this that just slays me more than anything else. People practicing this exhibit the most counterproductive attitude toward furthering the development of newer and better ways to do things.

You'd think that these people who protect the stuff they make did -not- come into the community with some innate knowledge of how to create things for OFP. Whatever those might be. Granted texturing is pretty universal, but that's somewhat irrelevant to my point.

There's more than a good chance they learned a fair amount about addon making from someone else in the community who was willing to share, who could see beyond their own ideas of what they had made, instead of taking offence to the concept that someone may have a different idea of how it works or perhaps a way to improve it. Which is what will eventually kill OFP for me if it became a popular trend.

The only mod I use is FDF, and that's because it runs reasonably better compared to most of the other big mods. Secondly, and just as importantly. I can modify it. So yes. I tweaked all the guns and made them perform like they do in my alternative weapons package (dispersion somewhere in between HD and BIS), I got rid of the blood for performance reasons. Limited the burn time on the fires, although unsuccessfully limited the duration of the "big smoke" that lingers afterwards, that's my fault for sucking at script though.

I just basically made the mod my own personal experience. I didn't bastardize or abuse anything. I just have a different idea on how the mod is to be played. People who think that's wrong... well I have choice words for them but I don't want to incur the mod's wrath.

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Maybe it is because we are not respected. We are working hard 2 years with entusiasm and after release we fall down to the ground and lost our power because of criticism, negative comments and disrespect of our work (not only in this forum).

So you make mods to gain 'respect' and 'power'? How about making a mod to improve and increase the enjoyment of the game you love?

If someone blatantly rips off your work and/or makes a crappy, or useless remake of your work, then make note of it to the community and let it be.

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Quote[/b] ]If someone blatantly rips off your work and/or makes a crappy, or useless remake of your work, then make note of it to the community and let it be.

Let me ask ONE question:

"WHY WOULD ANYONE IN THE COMMUNITY WITH HALF A BRAIN D/LD SOMETHING WHICH IS RIPPED OFF AND IS OF SUBSTANDARD QUALITY FROM THE ORIGINAL?"

Plz explain this seems to be a very wierd fear ... i mean there are thousands of M-4s out there but we all know with which we play the most Earls and BAS and anyone who wants to if he rips them off cant match them anyway so whats the point of hiding it? People would immediately know and the ripping party would be given a good flamefest and their addon thrown out end of the game.

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Well Acecombat I think you're missing the point. To some people an "open" variant or "remake" of something made for OFP, is better than having a closed version. I agree with this. I can assure you that both hemispheres of my brain are totally intact.

I also question what elements one considers when they assert that something is in fact of quality craftsmanship. Personally I don't really like Earl's guns so much because they're a bit more processor intensive than what I need. Therefore I can say I appreciate more the quality of consideration made for people who want the addon to run better. So there's two sides to this coin, and neither is wrong.

I would personally opt for a lesser detailed M4 that was nevertheless on par with BIS' weapons.

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@Maa and Bobby

I feel sorry for you if people criticize you because your model is 1cm too short, or something like that. Your texture and model work is amazing, but what I'm aiming at, is this fair use.

@Romulus

I respect every addon makers right and I for sure won't release any addon that I changed personally for myself. I asked someone about his MLODs (btw, they are publicly available in a older release, so I just could've ripped those), he said I am not allowed to create them to make a new addon so he won't give them to me. I respected this, now I'm wasting my time by creating a similar addon like his. People will thank me, if they have to download this package because I require it for something special.

So I hope, you see that I don't want to rip other people's addons apart without their authorization.

What I want is that more people release their addons under free to use and modify conditions. Let's look at Footmunch for example. His addons are high quality lately, every released addon is MLOD. You can guess that I am improving some of them for my personal use, and probably for public release. I even asked him, just to make sure, whether I'm allowed to modify them.

And this is what I like; he releases his addons free to use and free to modify. It was his choice to do it like that, but there aren't many people who choose to do the same. And that's my basic question: Why?

And that's why I was so lushy with any restrictions on using my work, because it got only recently very popular (before I left the community) restricting usage and modifications. And as this trend will continue, I for sure will release my work under a GPL-like license. I am completely against "licensing" addons or code for a game (people, this is just a game!!!).

But as this tendency shows clear into the restrictive direction, I am forced to release my work under a license that protects my work and derivatives from "protection". If people don't agree to my license, it's ok, they just don't have to use my work. It won't stop this behaviour, but at least it'll support those who want an open development process.

@Ebud

I'm sorry if I attacked or offended you personally, I can't know always the facts, therefore thanks for clearing up the "Tonal objects case".

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All this might be pretty annoying when you are working on something and can't just open up everything and take it apart with just giving credit to the original Author.

But in most times all you have to do is to contact the author and ask him and you'll get what you want. And by doing so you show that you respect the authors rights and freedom.

If you don't get permission, you should still respect this since it's the freedom of the author to do so and our I think your ethincs are also based on the idea of freedom.

Think about what it would mean if your freedom would be taken away.

The whole post was good, but too big to quote, but this section is exactly what im talking about.

Ok lets try and answer your question and move away from the rights of addon makers to "Why".

i object to people, who think that being able to edit someone elses work is thier god given right. I encrypt addons so that I control who edits them, not because im selfish. I think many addon makers think along similar lines. If people WANT the addon to edit, they will email for it.

i also object to the generalisation of selfishness as the reason. This is in most cases nothing to do with models being encoded.

Often addon makers have thier own updates, reskins, new versions planned to add to models. If they allow them to be edited at will, they would be screwing thier own updates up.

For example, what would BAS do is they'd released all thier addons open source and allowed editing? They wouldnt be able to release an updated pack later on would they?

This is often the main reason IMO.

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And this is what I like; he releases his addons free to use and free to modify. It was his choice to do it like that, but there aren't many people who choose to do the same. And that's my basic question: Why?

Some people like to control who does what with what they see as an expression of themselves. Most addon makers do this out of passion for the game or the craft itself. Others do it for their 15 seconds of fame (thats about as long as most people's addon attention span is before they crave another addon), Others do it for the community such as footmunch. The thing is, scripts are applicable to many missions or addons. The same cannot be said for models or textures... usually. Scripts by their very nature are not "art" per se (I know I will get it for that quote and it IS an artform, just not in the classic sense) as you cannot readily see a script until it does it's job, and it is hard to tell who did it unless you are familiar with certain coders work, if a script does it's job and it works... it works, you can stop working on it. It either does or does not work, but textures and models are "art" and can be worked on literally forever and never be "perfect". Also models and texture work is subjective, a model not so much, either it's the right dimensions or it isn't, but there is a style involved as well that can be seen if someone does enough of them. This style is part of their artistic expression. It's an extension of themselves so to speak. Call that silly, but it really is. That's why people get so defensive when you criticize their "art". They literally pour their heart and soul into it. It's not the Mona Lisa, but it's still their "art" and by you criticizing it, you in turn criticize them and the entire process they used to get to that point.

So now back to free use. With this in mind, think about how a person thinks about what they created. Code may have personality, but most wont see it. Visual work does, and it's this personal connection the maker has with his art that is special. HE/SHE created it, and woe to the person who steals/edits/criticizes his creation.

People who do this for money still look at it the same, but there is more of an incentive than personal satisfaction, and at least have the $$ in their pocket to soften the stings of critique or casual modders editing their work.

This is all just my opinion and I could be wrong smile_o.gif

@Ebud

I'm sorry if I attacked or offended you personally, I can't know always the facts, therefore thanks for clearing up the "Tonal objects case".

No problem, I didn't take offense to it, we're jsut talking smile_o.gif

reply is in the quote

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Quote[/b] ]it's this personal connection the maker has with his art that is special. HE/SHE created it, and woe to the person who steals/edits/criticizes his creation

Wow i think you nailed it right there. That addon is my baby, it shall remain mine wink_o.gif

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I would also like to point out, that by enforcing your GPL license in this way; by removing addon makers "rights" to lock their addons, instantly removes your "rights" to use addon makers unlocked addons wink_o.gif

At the end of the day, its up to the maker. This thread, and any "threats" of leaving the community, or so on will not affect the community, or the addon makers in any way.

If people wouldnt steal, would we need locks in the first place?

If you can change the world vektor, then you are the bigger man, but I can't see that happening, and like all the other threads themed like this, it will simply be forgotten after a few weeks. Sorry, but thats just life.

Edited for grammar tounge_o.gif

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Quote[/b] ]I would also like to point out, that by enforcing your GPL license in this way; by removing addon makers "rights" to lock their addons, instantly removes your "rights" to use addon makers unlocked addons

Umm... Am I missing something?  How does making an addon open, so people can learn from it, have anything to do w/ using that addons?

People don't "steal" your addons.  Stealing is when people take something that of costs for free.  It's not like you incure any monetary loss when people use your addons in their own.  It's about ego.  And I'm not saying that it's wrong to be proud of your addons.  You should be proud of them.  But some people in the community (not to name names....*cough* BAS *cough*) don't want anyone else to challenge their postion in the community. They feel themselves a step above everyone else, not just in addon quality(which, in some ways they are), but in what they get to do, and what they have and should have access to.  If someone is taking credit for your addon, then you can let people know about it by posting here on the forums.  Then, the person who took credit for your addons will get more or less kicked out of the community.  Problem solved.

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People don't "steal" your addons.  Stealing is when people take something that of costs for free.  It's not like you incure any monetary loss when people use your addons in their own.  

Not to get into semantics here.. but technically:

-----------------------------------------------------------

Steal    

v. stole,sto·len,steal·ing,steals

1) To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

2)To get or effect surreptitiously or artfully: steal a kiss; stole the ball from an opponent.

3)To move, carry, or place surreptitiously.

4)To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Just because you can't assign a monetary value to something doesn't mean it can't be stolen.  

Of course legally speaking you're not going to be awarded any damages unless you can prove that you incurred financial losses from the theft.

But that still doesn't make it right

A created work is considered protected by copyright as soon as it exists. According to the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, literary and artistic works are protected without any formalities in the countries party to that Convention.

This includes 180 member countries

http://www.wipo.int/about-wipo/en/members/member_states.html

and is enforced by WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organization), an arm of the UN in effect.

All in all... I agree 110% with what Deadmeat said:

Quote[/b] ]If you can change the world vektor, then you are the bigger man, but I can't see that happening, and like all the other threads themed like this, it will simply be forgotten after a few weeks. Sorry, but thats just life.

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I have always been for open source and helping others, but it is clear that its true

Authors want their own work, especially for the reason for your own future rereleases and of course the fear of someone making the conflicting replica addon and just because its the owners,they made and maybe even had help ,it doesn't matter.

A knowledge seeking addonmaker needs to search for an addon that is openable/changeable and permission granted addon

My solution for the Bis addons are also similiar...they maybe should have given DEMO addons with O2

You know a demo soldier,car,plane,boat etc.. that maybe even wasn't even used in the game

Maybe just basic models that were easy to look at

And they need to implement some sort of scheme that allows NO opening of addons/missions or such

Option of author unencrypted release

We have to remember that alot of the unencrypted addons that people release wouldn't/didn't/don't want you to tamper with their addon also

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I will not tell others what to do, therefore I'm going to explain what I believe in and what our mod does.

When we released the submarine we released it open source on purpose. (someone even pointed out that we "forgot" to encrypt it, which I was thankful for of course, but wondered why it was expected that we do so? wink_o.gif )

We did, however, ask that anyone wanting to remake it contact us and let us see their work. This is simply because we're interested in seeing what others do with our work, and wish to be sure that credit is given where credit is due. (The AEF mod contacted us and we were happy to work with them, just asking that credit was given, thank you for being thoughtful and asking!)

I was proud to release it open source, in the hopes that others would learn from it and make submarines as well. (it still needs a West enemy to battle with, heh) wink_o.gif I'm also proud to help others get through that difficult process faster with the knowledge gained from our experience. This helps "leapfrog" the community and is how I learned the foundation for all of my (sometimes limited) addon and mission making skills.

Making the sub was a very difficult, time consuming process for our mod and Ebud said it well, it's an art and the end result is an intimate part of the creator(s). Is it too much to ask that the addon makers be allowed to decide what happens to their art?

Asmo

P.S> I want to thank all those that have released their stuff open source and have helped the community with all the excellent tutorials and other help provided in so many ways! You played a big part in helping the community grow to what it is and you should be proud! smile_o.gif

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What I find amusing is that it seems that certain Addon Makers are under the impression that:

1) The moment they release unencrypted addons, there's going to be a massive and overwhelming flood of theft and ripping of addons, and;

2) That they think this method is genuinely secure from being cracked open.

*chuckles*

Building on point 1:

I could swear that before you had the option to encrypt the addons, things were pretty damned quiet in regards to addon theft, in that its was practically non-existant in our community.

So if there wasn't a problem before, where is this "Siege mentality" coming from? crazy_o.gif

Common sense & the history of our community dictates that nothing for Addon Makers will change if people can access your addons.

Except that you might draw less animosity for what appears (based on what I state above) to be a completely pointless move.

Clarifying point 2:

Have any of you thought about the historical precedents in our community?

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

- Demo addons were locked away, they got cracked/opened.

- CWC addons were locked away, they got cracked/opened.

- RES  addons were locked away, they got cracked/opened.

- This new locking method ... it will get cracked/opened (hell, it already has been).

So all this locking business seems to be good only for one thing ... Bad community PR.

I know what I would do if I was an Addon maker... ;)

edit: removed too general a reference

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So you make mods to gain 'respect' and 'power'? How about making a mod to improve and increase the enjoyment of the game you love?

This is misunderstanding of my words. I'm meaning "power" as gasoline for our "motors" in ourselves or as pleasure of our work...

We don't make our MOD for gain respect... we make it for enjoy of ourselves.

P.S. Sorry for my poor english.

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I rather enjoy re-doing addons to be honest. I make changes in cpp or texture work to suit my taste if it differs from the maker's. I don't release them as they are not my own original work.

Having open source work available is how I and many others learned how to work with the OFP engine.

Basically how I see it though about attitudes...what addon makers don't appear to do is look at the game as fun anymore. It always sounds like the community is nothing but a pain in the ass and how "you" are always being put out. If "you" spend too much free time making an addon, that's your own fault and shouldnt be taken out on someone wanting to use it. At least they like it.

It's not a selfish act to lock addons though, just a disappointing one IMO.

EDIT: "you" meaning anyone in general. This post isnt aimed at anyone in particular.

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This is why i voted Deadmeat best debater, he always comes up with these arguments that contain everything id have liked to say, but in a way that actually sounds reasonable. biggrin_o.gif

Everything you said deadmeat.

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Quote[/b] ]I would also like to point out, that by enforcing your GPL license in this way; by removing addon makers "rights" to lock their addons, instantly removes your "rights" to use addon makers unlocked addons

Umm... Am I missing something?  How does making an addon open, so people can learn from it, have anything to do w/ using that addons?

What I meant there, is that by removing the makers "rights" to lock the addon, automatically removes the "rights" of the person who wants to modify it to do so.

To follow up with a quote from Rom's post:

Quote[/b] ]It is perfectly valid if someone encrypts his OFP work so that no one can open or modify it and you have absolutely no right to call him greedy or what else. If you do, you are guilty to deny his a fundamental right he has.

That is what I meant by my statement - to remove ones "rights" to protect the content, removes the others "rights" to modify said content.

Quote[/b] ]It's about ego.

Its got nothing to do with that. As Ebud said a page back, its about preventing "loafers" from wandering in, taking the work which has taken the original creator months of late nights, hair pulling, and hard graft, slapping it together in a slightly different way, then taking (or not, doesnt matter either way) credit for the work.

What BAS didn't want at the release of Tonal was people using the content, which at the time was a whole new style in the game, to make other islands. (we DID get requests within 2 hours of release to use the content...)

BAS have ALLWAYS operated, and will continue to operate, on a "semi-open source" method. That is in the general public release, all of our models are binarised - to optimise them for the game - but if people want to use them, ALL they have to do is send an email, and 9 times out of 10 we will send MLODs of whichever models they require.

Quote[/b] ]And I'm not saying that it's wrong to be proud of your addons. You should be proud of them. But some people in the community (not to name names....*cough* BAS *cough*) don't want anyone else to challenge their postion in the community. They feel themselves a step above everyone else, not just in addon quality(which, in some ways they are), but in what they get to do, and what they have and should have access to.

Sorry if you feel this way, but its simply not true. If you can find ANYWHERE on this forum, or others, where a BAS member has posted that "we are better than EVERYONE so tounge_o.gif " I'll be impressed. Because BAS has never claimed that. All we do is release the addons, its the PEOPLE who proclaim us as the "best makers" (hell, we even won "best addon maker 2003" so thats gotta show something...)

If you notice the p3dedit threads, BAS members haven't posted in them, we didnt need to use that thread to "brag" about the tool, or moan about it. All we do is make addons - nothing more, nothing less. If people like them, and want to praise us, what can we do to stop it?

(Also, I believe that flamebaiting is against the forum rules, please dont do it...)

Quote[/b] ]If someone is taking credit for your addon, then you can let people know about it by posting here on the forums. Then, the person who took credit for your addons will get more or less kicked out of the community. Problem solved.

Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesnt... Look at recent events and you will see examples of both a "success" of this method, and a "failure"

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I would also like to point out, that by enforcing your GPL license in this way; by removing addon makers "rights" to lock their addons, instantly removes your "rights" to use addon makers unlocked addons wink_o.gif

You got here something wrong: I am not enforcing anyone to use my GPL-like license. If someone wants to use my work in his addon/whatever he has to agree to this license, if he doesn't agree, he may not use it.

So he has the choice: Use my work, release his work in an editable format, or don't use it and lock his work. That's his freedom.

And if he agrees to my license, he agrees that I and anyone may use his work and modify, rework, take parts of it, and release it under the same license.

(Of course every derived work has to give credits to the original author/s and must be released under different PBO-name, preferably OFPEC-tag.)

This is how the GPL works, and this is how my license will work. Of course I can't and I won't enforce any recent user of my work to use this license. If someone used my work before I made the license, the license does not apply, because you have to agree to a license before you "buy" something.

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I would also like to point out, that by enforcing your GPL license in this way; by removing addon makers "rights" to lock their addons, instantly removes your "rights" to use addon makers unlocked addons wink_o.gif

You got here something wrong: I am not enforcing anyone to use my GPL-like license. If someone wants to use my work in his addon/whatever he has to agree to this license, if he doesn't agree, he may not use it.

So he has the choice: Use my work, release his work in an editable format, or don't use it and lock his work. That's his freedom.

Yes, but by forcing him to leave his final addon in open source removes anyone elses "rights" to modify the content of said open source addon.

Its a big loophole in the "rights" system, that by removing someones "rights" to lock something, removes everyone elses "rights" to use the contents of the now unlocked archive.

If people leave anything open-source by choice (which a lot of people do) then there is no issue, since it is the makers CHOICE to leave the archive open-source. If however the maker is forced to leave it open source against his/her will, then the end-user "rights" to modify the open-source content are nullified.

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Yes, but by forcing him to leave his final addon in open source removes anyone elses "rights" to modify the content of said open source addon.

No, and I am not forcing him. I am not forcing him to use my work, and therefore I do not force him to leave his addon open source.

He has to agree to the license to use my work, and therefore he agrees to provide his addon in an editable format.

I do not remove his rights, it is his choice to agree to my license or not.

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Quote[/b] ]I would also like to point out, that by enforcing your GPL license in this way; by removing addon makers "rights" to lock their addons, instantly removes your "rights" to use addon makers unlocked addons

Umm... Am I missing something?  How does making an addon open, so people can learn from it, have anything to do w/ using that addons?

People don't "steal" your addons.  Stealing is when people take something that of costs for free.  It's not like you incure any monetary loss when people use your addons in their own.  It's about ego.  And I'm not saying that it's wrong to be proud of your addons.  You should be proud of them.  But some people in the community (not to name names....*cough* BAS *cough*) don't want anyone else to challenge their postion in the community.  They feel themselves a step above everyone else, not just in addon quality(which, in some ways they are), but in what they get to do, and what they have and should have access to.  If someone is taking credit for your addon, then you can let people know about it by posting here on the forums.  Then, the person who took credit for your addons will get more or less kicked out of the community.  Problem solved.

EDC.....I respect you man....but I found that post offensive. We may protect some stuff....but all our scripts are free to use, we have released several MLOD models...plan to release more and as DM pointed we do not proclaim to be above other mods.

We got a lot of negative press for reasons sometimes are incomprehensible. I do take Canadianterrors point that BAS are guilty sometimes of over emphasising the work we put on and the seeming unappreciative community...we are guilty as charged there.

There is a big distinction to make here....I have a lot of respect for all addons makers and I have wanted to start a thread of "Mods I like" for a while...coz there is some stuff out there that is truly amazing.

But the distinction is this....at BAS, we certainly think we can do it better than most (in some cases the results prove that) but we never think we ARE better than most.

I was dissapointed a little to see this argument turned in individual team slanging matches. There has been some good discussion throughout this thread....let's keep the personalities out of it.

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I'd just like to hop in here and give DeadMeat a better understanding of what the GPL (and also other open source/free software) license means.

General Public License

There you can read the license in it's entirety, but I'll sum up the tasty bits for you all here (it's a whole bunch to read).

<ul>

[*]Anything released under the GPL can be modified by the end-user.

[*]If you make any modifications to the item released under GPL, you are required to distribute this altered version along with the 'source' (in addon-making this would be the unPBO:ed scripts, models, textures and sounds etc.) so that further modifications can be made.

[*]You cannot take an item released under the GPL and include it in a closed work (taking a GPL:ed script and using this in a binarized addon and not distributing an un-binarized version would constitute using it in a closed work)

Now, you don't have to send out the source along with whatever you make, but you must allow people access to the source if they request it.

To take the addon-world as an example you can distribute a binarized addon (that contains GPL:ed things), and if anyone asks you for the open version of the source, you e-mail it to them so they can look at it, learn, modify it, improve it.

I'm not sure if DeadMeat misunderstands the General Public License, or if I'm misunderstanding what DeadMeat is saying, but I felt this clarification was necessary.

That being said I agree with Vektorboson.

There is too much "This is mine, mine I tell you!" mentality in the OFP addonmaking (and scripting/missionmaking for that matter) community.

If people are so afraid of others deriving of their work, what's the point of even releasing addons, just play with them yourselves.

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Yes, I know what the GPL is, and I know your not forcing him/her to use your work.

But my point was, if they DID use your work, then your GPL license would be forcing them to leave the addon open-source, and thus would be removing their "rights" to lock the addon. By removing the "right" to lock the contents, removes the right to freely use the content.

Like I said, its a big loophole in the human "rights" system, somewhat like you cant put a man/woman to death in many countries now because of their "rights" even if they have been proven beyond shadow of a doubt that they were the guilty party.

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