'mourning sickness'

[Hinny 0]

I happened to notice a large number of forum members with the spanish black ribbon flag thing in their sigs and as avatars.

Also I happened to see this article on BBC News Online entitled 'Mourning Sickness':

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3512447.stm

Just wondered what your opinions were on this.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]Mourning sickness is a religion for the lonely crowd that no longer subscribes to orthodox churches. Its flowers and teddies are its rites, its collective minutes' silences its liturgy and mass.

"But these new bonds are phoney, ephemeral and cynical," he said.

.....as opposed to the phoney and ephemeral bonds of orthodox churches......Aye, right.

Its a 'WAAAAAH PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO CHURCH! Where will we raise money to buy more silly hats?!' type of whining.

[Hinny 0]

Quote[/b] ]Mourning sickness is a religion for the lonely crowd that no longer subscribes to orthodox churches. Its flowers and teddies are its rites, its collective minutes' silences its liturgy and mass.

"But these new bonds are phoney, ephemeral and cynical," he said.

.....as opposed to the phoney and ephemeral bonds of orthodox churches......Aye, right.

Its a 'WAAAAAH PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO CHURCH!  Where will we raise money to buy more silly hats?!' type of whining.

I think it's suggesting that rather than going to church to make ourselves feel better about ourselves, which is a generally positive experience, are now using the tragic events that happen in the world with overt signs to show we care and are good people instead.

I don't think it's suggesting people should go to church but instead that this may be one of consequences of living in a western world where religion tends to play a lesser role than years gone by.

[Frisbee 0]

You could say it's true, in my school the direction organised to have one minute silence for the people in Madrid.

I personally find it quite hypocritical, people die in equal or larger numbers everyday, but just because these are Spanish (or American in the case of 9-11) we are holding a minute of silence?  

No offense to the people who needlessly died there, I have respect for them, and I offer my condoleances.

But I don't see any such minutes for people who die everyday in Ethiopia or Zimbabwe, they're often just as innocent as these spanish victims.

Note : I'm criticising people (like my school board) who are selective in their criteria of people 'who deserve a minute of silence', not the victims of the Madrid attack, they do indeed have a right to respect, just not anymore than any other victim in the world, at least imho.

[ran 0]

You could say it's true, in my school the direction organised to have one minute silence for the people in Madrid.

I personally find it quite hypocritical, people die in equal or larger numbers everyday, but just because these are Spanish (or American in the case of 9-11) we are holding a minute of silence?

No offense to the people who needlessly died there, I have respect for them, and I offer my condoleances.

But I don't see any such minutes for people who die everyday in Ethiopia or Zimbabwe, they're often just as innocent as these spanish victims.

Note : I'm criticising people (like my school board) who are selective in their criteria of people 'who deserve a minute of silence', not the victims of the Madrid attack, they do indeed have a right to respect, just not anymore than any other victim in the world, at least imho.

agreed

[miles teg 1]

You obviously haven't lived in Texas.  

Religion is still a HUGE part of people's lives in most of the United States.  In Europe certainly the church's are emptying (although Islam is growing) as atheism or agnosticism is gaining ground.  

However in the United States there is no such trend.

I just read the article, and personally I thought it was a bunch of BS.  It's like saying that the REAL trauma that many Americans experienced watching 9/11 happen even though they weren't there or knew any victims, was just some kind of substitute for religion. It was NOT fake grief or fake trauma. It was VERY real Trauma as I experienced it myself. It insults me immensely to have someone belittle my emotions by trying to say I am trying use it as a substitute for religion. 

It has NOTHING to do with religion.  It has to do with watching the purposeful murder of innocent civilians and in the case of Europe and Spain, Europeans watching fellow Europeans murdered in mass and in cold blood.

Even now, I still have difficulty watching the 9/11 attack.  It was truly sickening as it was truly sickening and heart breaking watching the Spanish emergency services pulling mangled corpses from the wreckage left from that terrorist attack over there.

It is simple sorrow.  I felt the same for all those Kurds and Shi'ites killed by bombers in Iraq and for Israeli civilians killed by Palistinian suicide bombers.  

For some idiot amateur psychologist from that so called "think-tank" to publish such crap, and worse, for the BBC to propagate that kind of quack psychology/sociology is very unprofessional on their part.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Placebo 28]

Personally I display it as a sign of respect for those murdered, no more, no less.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

You obviously haven't lived in Texas.

Religion is still a HUGE part of people's lives in most of the United States. In Europe certainly the church's are emptying (although Islam is growing) as atheism or agnosticism is gaining ground.

However in the United States there is no such trend.

Minor point: There is, but its not as fast as in Europe.

Numbers of irreligious people are growing everywhere *edit* that people are being educated*edit*

Quote[/b] ]

I just read the article, and personally I thought it was a bunch of BS. It's like saying that the REAL trauma that many Americans experienced watching 9/11 happen even though they weren't there or knew any victims, was just some kind of substitute for religion. It was NOT fake grief or fake trauma. It was VERY real Trauma as I experienced it myself. It insults me immensely to have someone belittle my emotions by trying to say I am trying use it as a substitute for religion.

It has NOTHING to do with religion. It has to do with watching the purposeful murder of innocent civilians and in the case of Europe and Spain, Europeans watching fellow Europeans murdered in mass and in cold blood.

Agreed. It has nothing to do with religion IMO.

It may be the case that some people are pretending to care when they don't really, but that still has nothing to do with religion: they could be religious, irreligious or anything inbetween.

And to suggest that people are using this as a substitute for religion (implying that we in some way need it) is insulting and plain untrue.

Quote[/b] ]

For some idiot amateur psychologist from that so called "think-tank" to publish such crap, and worse, for the BBC to propagate that kind of quack psychology/sociology is very unprofessional on their part.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Agreed.

Has everyone noticed that there is an area for feedback on the article....?

[denoir 0]

Personally I display it as a sign of respect for those murdered, no more, no less.

My sentiment exactly. It's not because I mourn the dead but out of respect to them and their countrymen who are mourning.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Numbers of irreligious people are growing everywhere *edit* that people are being educated*edit*

Oh please so i follow a religion because i am uneducated and you are more educated and civilized and literate then me? Is that what you mean? I dont know how mods are letting you get away with such a statement but if you dont bloody find religion worth believing in then plz keep your bloody trashy statements to yourself. Truly your arrogance knows no bounds.

Oh and read this while your sitting on your arrogant high horse of 'i am the most literate prick alive as i dont follow a religion' Downfall of Athiesm

[John C Flett 0]

I think that there is some truth in whats said. However it does seem to be judging the whole by the worst examples. I agree that there is a lot of ghoulishness ( Princess Di for example ) and that there are people who try to exploit this grief.

I don't agree however that many people felt that way about things like 9/11 or Madrid. At least not initially. Certainly after the event there have been questionable things done but by only a few people.

And if we grieve for ourselves is that not true equally when people close to us are lost? Grief has always had a selfish aspect. That is simply that nature of it.

As for a it being a substitute for church,  for many people conventional religion has failed. If this is what helps them then I see no harm in that. If the organised religions think its unhealthy then they are the ones who need to put their houses in order and become relevant to people again. Churches ( of any faith ) should provide comfort and moral guidance and leadership. It seems to me that here in the UK the main christian churches are dragging there morality out of the 19th century and give little to those who need it.

Not much taken with your article actually Acecombat. Seems to me to pick questional facts to support its case, more doctrine than arguement. I do however agree with the point you make yourself.

This is such a big issue that has occupied the best minds since the dawn of time. If somebody sees no evidence and feels no space for faith in their life, thats I guess their right but its only a judgement. Personally after a great deal of reading and searching I came to the opposite opinion. I would never claim it to be right for anybody else but for me I believe strongly.

Call it gods or goddesses. Call it fate, karma, wyrd or whatever you want. Call it chance if thats really what you feel but don't let anybody tell you you are wrong in your belief or put you down for it. Theres enough room in the world for reasonable people to hold different views but the world will never be big enough for those who cannot tolerate other ideas.

[denoir 0]

Oh and read this while your sitting on your arrogant high horse of 'i am the most literate prick alive as i dont follow a religion' Downfall of Athiesm

LOL. You have a good sense of humor Acecombat.

Quote[/b] ]Oh please so i follow a religion because i am uneducated and you are more educated and civilized and literate then me? Is that what you mean? I dont know how mods are letting you get away with such a statement but if you dont bloody find religion worth believing in then plz keep your bloody trashy statements to yourself. Truly your arrogance knows no bounds.

While saying that all religious people are uneducated would be very wrong, there is an undeniable correlation between education and decreased religious practice. Why and how is another story, but you can easily compare for instance the literacy rate in a country and how religious people are on average. You also have the historical perspective.

It's quite simple. The Vikings that use to roam around these parts believed that when there was lightning and thunder, it was the god Thor who was riding his carrige in the sky. Now when we have solid physical explanations of lighting and thunder, Thor is not needed anymore. Most of the traditional religions have adapted and changed to incorporate the scientific findings. No point in claiming that the earth is flat today, is it? Relgion gets dettached (as it should) from the real world and many abandon it. There is of course then the spiritual part of religion, which has nothing to do with the world or reality, but is a psychological tool for humans. And as long as it stays that way, then there does not have to be a correlation between religion and education.

A counterargument is that religion can be an inspiration for education. It's not a coincidence that many of the greatest scientist in the history of man kind were Jewish. It's simply because from young age they got the practice to read and study (religion related), developing analytical skills that they later used in other areas.

[Frisbee 0]

Truly your arrogance knows no bounds.

Oh and read this while your sitting on your arrogant high horse of 'i am the most literate prick alive as i dont follow a religion' Downfall of Athiesm

Hahaha.

Quote[/b] ]Harun Yahya : An invitation to the truth

note the the part

Arrogance you say?

And the fact that site attacks science and then uses science to disprove science lol.

Science disproves science, science does not, or at least has not yet proven the existence of some divine creator.

So the site itself does exactly the same as what the people they criticise did :

Take all the evidence they can find, use it to disprove something, then proceed to claim their vision as true, without taking into account any possibility that they'll be proven wrong themselves.

Piggybacking on science to attack it, lol, thanks for the link though.  

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Denoir already said pretty much everything I wanted to say.

Being religious doesn't mean you are necessarily less educated (it does mean you are more credulous and apt to believe nonsense though.)

The fact of the matter is, the more education people have, the less likely they are to believe in mythological figures like gods, fairies or unicorns. That doesn't mean that nobody with an education believes these things though.

As to that article: Very funny! I laughed a lot reading it. Especially this line, right at the start:

"Of course, atheism, the idea of rejecting God’s existence"

Bwahahahahhahaha.

[walker 0]

Personally I display it as a sign of respect for those murdered, no more, no less.

Hi all

Ditto

Kind Regards Walker

[Skul 0]

I, too agree with placebo.

I also feel sad and angry when I think about that pointless attack on those innocent people.

[shinRaiden 0]

Perhaps I've just not met enough people yet, but every single professing agnostic or atheist I've met and talked with at length has admitted that their choice of belief is a construct in reaction to either parochial abuses, personal emotional trauma or neglect, or the choice of a lifestyle incompatible with an orthodox lifestyle. That is their choice, but by taking a reactionary stance they deny themselves as much opportunity as they claim we deny ourselves though alleged subservience to faith.

The article Acecombat cited was an interesting read, but still limited itself on various possiblities outside of mainstream thinking, such as, if 'God' were to organize pre-existing elements in His own design, that could meet the scientific requirement of continuity of matter and the religious requirement of obligation to divine creation.

Science would save itself a great deal of wasted time and effort if they would get off their high horse and ask the man upstairs how he did it. If I want to learn how to fiddle with a config.cpp, I come and ask one of you in the forums here. If I have a question on car maintanence, I ask my parents who have done plenty themselves. If I have a question about why the stars were put where they were, I ask the One who would know such things.

The original BBC article did hint in the general direction that the general problem is a selfish "ME ME ME" perspective that people are ingratiating themselves on. There have been similar articles recently as well on the 'philosophy and spirituality' of Tolkien, Harry Potter, and Star Wars as well. The related failings of organized religion worldwide I think could most likely be pinned on 1) existing religions' abandonment of their core foundations of faith and doctrine, and 2) the populace's lack of commitment to living a faith-centered life.

How many folks, given the opportunity, would ditch church (or synagogue or friday prayers at the mosque or anthing else) for Football or football? How many scientists make it their life's work to attempt to prove the finality of death? You have one camp saying that faith creates liberty, and the other side saying that it abrogates self-existent liberty. Since both sides are arguing based on mutually exclusive systems of belief, how (or should) the two sides be reconciled?

-edit- ps -edit-

Also in reference to the original post, my sympathy's as well to the innocents who died in madrid. They are lost only if we chose to lose the memory of them. But the greatest memorial to them should not be mourn-a-thons. If you believe that terrorism should be proactively rooted out, do everything you can to support that. If you feel rather that it needs to be negotiated and reasoned out, support that instead. But don't sit on your arse at home getting high off of your own endorphins watching the tube.

[EiZei 0]

1) existing religions' abandonment of their core foundations of faith and doctrine

What excatly are these core foundations and doctrines that religions (for example, christianity) have abandoned recently?

[Placebo 28]

People are free to follow a religion or not follow a religion, they're also free to not be bashed because they choose to follow a religion or not follow a religion, remember that what is worthless and trivial to you may not be worthless and trivial to another, to that end if people's faith or lack of cannot be discussed in a respectful way we're simply going to have to say that it's a topic non grata.

[Gollum1 0]

You could say it's true, in my school the direction organised to have one minute silence for the people in Madrid.

I personally find it quite hypocritical, people die in equal or larger numbers everyday, but just because these are Spanish (or American in the case of 9-11) we are holding a minute of silence?

No offense to the people who needlessly died there, I have respect for them, and I offer my condoleances.

But I don't see any such minutes for people who die everyday in Ethiopia or Zimbabwe, they're often just as innocent as these spanish victims.

Note : I'm criticising people (like my school board) who are selective in their criteria of people 'who deserve a minute of silence', not the victims of the Madrid attack, they do indeed have a right to respect, just not anymore than any other victim in the world, at least imho.

agreed

Agreed, these official silences shouldn't exist since they pick and choose which innocent lives are worth remembering.

edit: I had the ribbon in my sig too, but it's just these mandatory (in our school), public silences that I just don't support.

[Hinny 0]

Personally I display it as a sign of respect for those murdered, no more, no less.

Don't take these questions as hostile, it's just a genuine interest and help how to understand how people feel.

1) Why do you feel the need to show this as a mark of respect?

2) What do you feel you or others gain from showing it as a symbol?

3) Do you think if, for whatever reason, the media only gave the Madrid bombings a couple minutes news time would your reaction be the same? (eg. There seems to be weekly bombings in Israel with perhaps a couple of mentions on the day of attack then nothing after)

As I say I'm not trying to say your opinion is wrong or anything, just wanna understand it better. I mean a lot of people say things like 'its out of respect', but what does that really mean?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Perhaps i have not studied the article in question closely enough but i find no reference to the Madrid bombings or September the eleventh whatsoever. In fact the article seems more focused on the mourning as a part of the cult of celebrity. Mourning acts of mass murder are i think a different kettle of fish. Though im inclined to ignore this article simply because its about the 'findings' of a 'think-tank' with the utterly stupid name of Civitas.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Its simple, Spain is part of the developed western world (more or less- bullfighting excluded) and when many Spaniards die in an attack we (those of us who are located in said 'developed' western world) can more closely identify with the survivors situation and empathise with their grief than that of some far off people of whom we know nothing.

There is also the extraordinary nature and scale of the attacks to contend with (& the fact that they occured just before an election and seem so designed to challenge democracy in the most cynical way.)

Its sad that people cannot empathise with all equally ( and i am just as guilty of this failing as others) but also perfectly understandable and natural. If we filled up our sigs with signs of respect for victims of every disaster, we would soon be prosecuted by the mods...

[somebloke 0]

I also agree with placebo.

The BBC is just out to make money for itself, but it is also one of the most unbiased TV Companies out there.

I really love reading these public debates.

[miles teg 1]

Minor point: There is, but its not as fast as in Europe.

Numbers of irreligious people are growing everywhere *edit* that people are being educated*edit*

Do you have sources to back that up? I have not heard of any such decline in Texas nor have I observed any decline.

You also by the way, can be highly educated and still be very religious or spiritual or whatever you want to call it.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>