Explosion in madrid

[John C Flett 0]

One thing I'm curious about. As I said earlier I can understand Aznar and the PP pushing the ETA theory.

What I don't understand here in the UK why so little has been said about this email which claims responsability for Al Qaeda. I could understand if they wanted to describe it as unverified or even dismiss it as a fake but not one single news report I've seen today has mentioned it. In all the speculation about MO and type of explosive this hardly seems a minor detail so why is it not mentioned?

Also as a thought about ETAs previous attempt to bomb a train. As I remember they tried to plant two bombs and failed. Now might it not also be suggested that if the group is incapable of planting two bombs might that not be an arguement AGAINST ETA being behind ten bombs? Somehow I think that well be getting spin on this for a long time. I'm already suspicious of some of what we're being told.

So much blood spilled and I feel that there are people already trying to exploit this tragedy for political ends.

[denoir 0]

Well, ETA has been loudly denying today that they had anything to do with it.

For me that basically rules them out. Political terror has no point if the terrorist do not claim responsibility. The purpose of the bombing was obviously to kill as many people as possible. Without attaching a political message to it you can basically rule out any politically motivated group, which includes ETA.

[Postduifje 0]

ETA, an organization who has killed around 800 people in over 30 years, with the "most succesfull" before yesterday a bomb in a supermarket in Barcelona in 1987. 21 people died there, and ETA later on "appologized", because it would be "a mistake". Besides that, there bloodiest period was 1980-1990, so it's not very likely they cause nearly 200 deaths now.

On the other hand, if they didn't plan on killing this many, so this would be kindof another mistake, they probably are better of being silent about it. But who plans on killing few does not trigger bombs on rush hour Madrid...

[Bernadotte 0]

I feel that if a vehicle stolen in the town where the trains originated was later found containing detonators and a cassette with verses from the Quran then Al Qaida's claim of responsibility is quite likely to be legitimate.

As far as why, they may be targetting countries where their key operatives have been arrested, putting Spain and Indonesia (Bali) quite high on their list.  I'm not sure how many Al Qaida members have been apprehended in the UK, but the British Isles are probably tougher to infiltrate than Spain.

[ONE11 0]

The reason for these kind of actions stem from a long time ago, but I think these terrorist acts are very strongly tied to US foreign policy, particularly Reagan and Bush´s (both of them) governments. Therefore Bush´s (actually Perle´s, Wolfowich´s and co´s) doctrines cannot be the cure since to me it´s clear that they´re are the reason. We, europeans should really make EU stronger so we can withstand US pressure whenever the republicans are behind the wheel at the white house and provide guarantees for the ex-east bloc countries so that they don´t get drawn into these "coalition of willings"!

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

I have been shocked and saddened to hear of these bombings. The scenes of mourning and national solidarity from Spain are very moving.

Justice seems like a distant dream in such situations but i at least hope the perpertrators are caught.

I would like to state a few things though. Iraq was not invaded for supporting terrorism or explicitly as part of the war on terrorism, TBA stupidly tried to make this connection yes, but from a european perspective (UK & Spain) it was invaded for allegedly violating UN sec. council resolutions and for being a 'rogue nation' (an invasion i did not agree with). It has now become a part of the conflict and as such helps to fuel the fire of the 'War on Terrorism' but it was not the stated aim of Aznar to fight Al Quaida terrorism in supporting the Iraq war as some seem to have suggested.

Its not yet clear why or where this bombing came from but even if its A.Q. I think its a little silly to say that the 'War on Terror' has failed and use this attack as an example. It simply proves that such a conflict between terrorists and those hoping to thwart them exists. Declaring 'war' on terrorism itself may seem a little foolish but really Bush just attached a redundant soundbite to a pre existing reality (the fight between terrorists and counter terrorists) though its clear that post sept. 11 the conflict became more markedly military in nature (due to the invasion of Afghanistan etc) even harcore neo-conservatives have recognised and stated that the 'war' on terrorism would likely continue indefinately though(and at least not end in the forseeable future). Bush may not be a Mensa canditate but even he knew that invading Afghanistan would not end terrorism and was likely to bring more attacks, but this has been seen as the necessary cost of the 'war' against terrorists.

I disagree with much or most US strategy but i agree to the extent that I dont believe not attacking terrorist networks for fear of terrorism is an intelligent strategy (as has weakly been suggested in certain European quarters in the past). Invading Afghanistan was an understandable and, i believe, the correct response (though the blundering way the war was fought and the subsequent abandonment of Afghanistan i -greatly- dissapprove of).

Furthermore the UK has already been attacked. Id say bloodily bombing the UK embassy and British HSBC bank (killing 60 or more) in Istanbul counts as an attack on the UK would you not?

Anyway, the families and friends of the dead from this attack have my sympathy. Id like like to say more but im out of time.

[@cero 0]

Hi all.

I'm very concern about what's going on right now.

Alot of people seems to be confused about all this, when is extreamly clear.

ETA denied this attac, AQ reivindicates it.

A Catalan plitician had a miting with ETA no long ago. Madrid after find about it whent ape s##t, then ETA made a public statement saying that they will give a cease fire in Catalonia and to the Catalan interest.

Madrid didn't like that at all.

Spanish police stops a vehicle loaded with explosives and ocupied by four members of ETA.

A week later various bombs controled by mobile phones explodes in Madrid killing 199 AFAIK, and living 100s more injured, some of them will day from their wounds.

ETA denied implications in this bombs, and on the other part AQ reivindicates them.

Jose Maria Aznar kip on saying that ETA is the main suspect. Why?

This weekend is elections in Spain, for the presidency. If they admit that AQ is responsable of them bobms the Spanish voters won't be happy about being implicated in Irak( first country to send forces after USA and UK).

ETA have a net similar to the IRA one, well organized, but like with the IRA, they are under ovservation by the governament all the time.

Madrid knows alot more about ETA than they let us know. Is no way ETA would be able to move all this explosives around Madrid without being find out, specially when they lost alot of explosives when the police find the one vehicle a week ago.

ETA allways warns before attaking, there was no warning this time.

AQ put boms in Casablanca against Spanish interest, so this is not the first time AQ acts against Spain.

I think is clear who done it.

Excuse my bad english, specially now. I got too much in my head right now. I been in the phone non stop sense yesterday.

@CERO.

[denoir 0]

Its not yet clear why or where this bombing came from but even if its A.Q. I think its a little silly to say that the 'War on Terror' has failed and use this attack as an example.

This attack in combination with the orgy of terrorist attacks around the world clearly shows that the 'war on terror' isn't working. Since the 'war on terror' started the number of terrorist attacks has increased exponentially. In short not a very well done job. And it's not very surprising etiher, given the methods that have been used. Military intervention and invasion does not hurt the terrorists, the only thing it does is broaden their recruiting base. The approach that has been used is to attack them has been entirely based on a doctrine developed for fighting the Soviet Union. So it's hardly surprising that until now it has been a complete failure.

Afghanistan accomplished nothing. Osama and his merry men are running about like never before. Copy-cat terorrist networks are popping out everywhere. And thanks to the clusterfuck commonly called "the Iraq war" their recruiting base has shot through the roof. Hardly surprising is that all the terrorists that have been caught or killed have been so after international police work in combination with intelligence gathering and focused special forces operations. No high-altitude bombing involved.

The 'war on terror' isn't lost, but up until now it has been one miserable failure after another. The whole concept has to be revised and new methods chosen. We're far wose off today than we were after the WTC attacks. The things that have been done have simply not worked at all. In this respect, Iraq made things so much worse that I'd rather not get into it.

Quote[/b] ]I disagree with much or most US strategy but i agree to the extent that I dont believe not attacking terrorist networks for fear of terrorism is an intelligent strategy (as has weakly been suggested in certain European quarters in the past).

That's bullshit and quite an insult to the soldiers from all around Europe that faught and bled in Afghanistan. Tell me one European country that did not support the Afghanistan. We all joined in and tried it the American way. Today, three years later we can clearly see that it wasn't the right way. Now it's time for something new.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

noone will pubish anything untill after the election on sunday evening. Who can be so naive to believe that the experienced spanish police hasnt got a clue of who was behind this. After decades of collecting data and profiling ETA the police knows in a glimpse of time whether it was them or not. In the past it sometimes took the ETA weeks to admit a terorist attack but the police came forward with a statement usually right away.

Sunday is election. If it was Al Quaida then Anzar, or better his prefered candidate and his party will be blamed for their iraq politics. If it was ETA then Aznars party will be strengthened. The information is there, but surpressed untill sunday. Wanna bet?

[Bernadotte 0]

Military intervention and invasion does not hurt the terrorists, the only thing it does is broaden their recruiting base.

Denoir, we've been posting the same opinion for years and, even with all the supporting evidence now staring us in the face, there will continue to be huge numbers who disagree.  That's because covert ops and secret negotiations simply don't deliver the "feel good" factor of flying a JDAM into a militant's apartment window - while taking out all his neighbours too for, well, just being neighbours of a terrorist.

You say it's time for something new.  I wonder what you have in mind, if anything.  Naturally, I ask this in full anticipation of the inevitable knee-jerk chorus from the liberal-phobes.

[Bernadotte 0]

This weekend is elections in Spain, for the presidency. If they admit that AQ is responsable of them bobms the Spanish voters won't be happy about being implicated in Irak( first country to send forces after USA and UK).

noone will pubish anything untill after the election on sunday evening.

Very good points.  (And posted just 3 minutes apart.   )

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/12/spain.blasts/index.html

Quote[/b] ]

<snip>

The explosive used came from inside Spain and is similar to explosives used in previous attacks by ETA, according to Glenn Schoen, a security analyst who has seen the latest police analysis.

On the other hand, the copper detonators used in the backpack bombs were more sophisticated than the aluminum detonators previously used in bombs linked to ETA, said Schoen, who has worked with Spanish police on train security.

The preliminary analysis determined the explosive is a type of dynamite called ECO, manufactured in Spain and normally used in construction and mining, Schoen said.

Schoen -- director of analytical services at TranSecur in Washington -- was in Madrid last week inspecting railroad facilities as part of his work with Spanish police.

[denoir 0]

Military intervention and invasion does not hurt the terrorists, the only thing it does is broaden their recruiting base.

Denoir, we've been posting the same opinion for years and, even with all the supporting evidence now staring us in the face, there will continue to be huge numbers who disagree.  That's because covert ops and secret negotiations simply don't deliver the "feel good" factor of flying a JDAM into a militant's apartment window - while taking out all his neighbours too for, well, just being neighbours of a terrorist.

What's worse they are not even putting JDAMs through the windows of terrorists as they don't have the first clue to where they are. Plenty of bombs have been dropped since 11/9 in the name of the 'war on terror' but extremely few have hurt the terrorists.

Quote[/b] ]You say it's time for something new. I wonder what you have in mind, if anything. Naturally, I ask this in full anticipation of the inevitable knee-jerk chorus from the liberal-phobes.

Believe me, what I have in mind hardly qualifies as 'liberal'. I reserve my liberalism for those that do not commit indiscriminate mass murder of civillians. And I'm not talking about some silly form of revenge, just about making them stop.

I posted my idea of what should be done a while ago:

Quote[/b] ]What we need is humint - human intelligence. We need people that infiltrate the terrorist networks. We need to pinpoint the leaders and then use special forces to take out those individuals. A good example of a sucessful destruction of a terrorist network is how the French dealt with their Algerian problem. You infiltrate, you identify and you eliminate. Without a leadership terrorists can't do anything. The whole thing has to be coordinate. You need ideology, planning and not to mention logistics. Cut of the head and the body will die. Forget about all large scale operations. This can't be solved by carpet-bombing.

You don't kill them with bombs and brag about it on TV. You take them out up close and personal. You don't take credit for it. Squeeze their suppliers of weapons. But whatever you do, don't do moronic things like the Iraq invasion. Removing the recruiting base is at least as important as wiping out the currently active people. Even Rumsfeld admitted to the problem that new terrorists are grown at a much higher rate than the existing ones are killed off.

[Longinius 1]

And in addition to Denoirs suggestion of humint and spec ops I'd also like to add that the potential recruitment base in European countries have to be better integrated with the domestic culture, so those people do not want to be involved in terrorism. That will make it even harder for the terrorists to find support, and it would hopefully also mean that "their own" would work against them.

[Balschoiw 0]

It´s very sad if not disgusting that the greatest terrorist attack in spain is abused for political reasons.

I´m pretty sure they know more than they tell only because of sundays election.

My respect goes with the 17 million spanish people who protested yesterday. It takes some balls to go out on the streets and form non-violant protests in that large numbers. A lot of people on the streets were scared because mass gatherings make a good target for terrorists but 17 million people... That´s an impressive amount of people who oppose terrorists in that manner only 1 day after the biggest terrorist attack on spain ever. My respect to the people and my disrespect for political gamers like Aznar who have more eyes on the election day than to speek truth to their people. Sad thing. Disturbing.

[Longinius 1]

I respect them to. The only problem is that it doesnt matter, it doesnt change anything. Terrorists dont give a damn. And the protest had no clear political goal, it wont lead to any changes.

[@cero 0]

The explosive used came from inside Spain and is similar to explosives used in previous attacks by ETA, according to Glenn Schoen, a security analyst who has seen the latest police analysis.

On the other hand, the copper detonators used in the backpack bombs were more sophisticated than the aluminum detonators previously used in bombs linked to ETA, said Schoen, who has worked with Spanish police on train security.

The preliminary analysis determined the explosive is a type of dynamite called ECO, manufactured in Spain and normally used in construction and mining, Schoen said.

They were infact Spanish explosives. You don't import explosives to make terrorist bombs.

The detonators wasn't made of the usual material that ETA use, important fact.

And yes, Aznar is more interested in sunday than in thursday.

@CERO.

[Bernadotte 0]

I posted my idea of what should be done a while ago:

Quote[/b] ]What we need is humint - human intelligence. We need people that infiltrate the terrorist networks. We need to pinpoint the leaders and then use special forces to take out those individuals. A good example of a sucessful destruction of a terrorist network is how the French dealt with their Algerian problem. You infiltrate, you identify and you eliminate. Without a leadership terrorists can't do anything. The whole thing has to be coordinate. You need ideology, planning and not to mention logistics. Cut of the head and the body will die. Forget about all large scale operations. This can't be solved by carpet-bombing.

Over a year ago, somewhere in the first Iraq thread I posted about how the French very effectively solved their Algerian terrorist problem.  They infiltrated just as you've said, but when they identified the leaders they offered them large sums of cash to change their ways.  Those who declined were eliminated.  Cutting off the head meant the terrorist organisation would grow another one.  Turning that head is what made the rest of that body follow, for good.

[cozza 24]

Plenty of bombs have been dropped since 11/9 in the name of the 'war on terror' but extremely few have hurt the terrorists.

killed off.

11/9 Wat happened then.

[ozanzac 0]

Batdog, 11/9 using our dating system is the correct way to numerically order date and month in short form: september the eleventh.

September the eleventh is referred to as 9/11 because that is the way the Americans have their short dating system set, to read month/date/year.

We, and many other parts of the world, have the short dating system set up differently to read date/month/year. This is because we would generally say the eleventh of september.

There are probably other variations of the short dating system as well used worldwide.

So batdog, the more logical question you should be asking, is what is 9/11, rather than 11/9.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Batdog, 11/9 using our dating system is the correct way to numerically order date and month in short form: september the eleventh.

September the eleventh is referred to as 9/11 because that is the way the Americans have their short dating system set, to read month/date/year.

We, and many other parts of the world, have the short dating system set up differently to read date/month/year. This is because we would generally say the eleventh of september.

There are probably other variations of the short dating system as well used worldwide.

So batdog, the more logical question you should be asking, is what is 9/11, rather than 11/9.

Beautiful

[bn880 5]

noone will pubish anything untill after the election on sunday evening. Who can be so naive to believe that the experienced spanish police hasnt got a clue of who was behind this. After decades of collecting data and profiling ETA the police knows in a glimpse of time whether it was them or not. In the past it sometimes took the ETA weeks to admit a terorist attack but the police came forward with a statement usually right away.

Sunday is election. If it was Al Quaida then Anzar, or better his prefered candidate and his party will be blamed for their iraq politics. If it was ETA then Aznars party will be strengthened. The information is there, but surpressed untill sunday. Wanna bet?

Albert it's like this: how many days before Sunday? 2

days after Sunday? > 2

It takes time to verify evidence, it also takes a few days to contact or gather some humint to make a conclusion. So, furthermore since this happened right before elections it kind of makes sense Spanish authorities would not want to make it clear who is responsible for violence not to run politics. Anyway, I will not bet against you, as it makes a lot of sense in many ways. From political to intelligence perspective, they will not announce anything conclusive over the weekend.

Furhtermore this could be an Al qaeda operation with one member or few members of ETA showing how to make explosive only. So basically that would make it Alqaeda attack. (wether you know or not, Al Qaeda members can be educated in a variety of ways, including US higher education)

[Bernadotte 0]

Furhtermore this could be an Al qaeda operation with one member or few members of ETA showing how to make explosive only.

ETA have mostly received their explosives training in Lebanon. If there ends up being any similarity at all between these train bombs and ETA's bombs it might be because the bombers had the same instructors.

[bn880 5]

Could be that as well. I agree, similar background...

[Sadico 1]

It's been an islamic group:

4 arabs have been detained, and spanish inteligence service is 99% sure it's been al qaeda or other islamic group.

http://www.elmundo.es/

(sorry i haven't found any link in english)

p.s.

crap, this must be the first time i post here in more than a year