Us presidential election 2004

[Akira 0]

I hope people notice this....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....arriage

Like someone said already. A return to the middle ages.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]well, looks like it's official ...four more years of BULLSHIT and an almost no existent foreign policy. I blame the democrats as much as I blame the bush nazies in all honesty we all know Kerry didn't stand a chance..I guess all democrats and independants like myself were graspin for straws

Has a independent I hope the democrats can get past the bitterness and move on. There is a lot of stuff to be done and I hope the dems do not act like babies.

BTW, SEIG HEIL!!

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Like someone said already. A return to the middle ages.

Hey Akira, I think what the republicans did in Texas was wrong.

[ericz 0]

Quote[/b] ]There is always a reason to defend a president but I do not understand why all his actions are always approved by all republicans.

I guess I must be out there by myself as I don't "approve" of all Pres. Bush's decisions and I am Republican, go figure.

Quote[/b] ]I still dont understand, still after hundred of pages discussing here with people, why a president who initially started a war for the wrong reasons is fully forgiven?

The fact remains, Saddam had no WMD and no democracy has been established in iraq. Fact is that Bush is the reason for at least 100.000 civillian casualties (newest studies). Do you forgive things like this? Do you oversee them? Are those lifes of no importance? Is this the prize to pay for a country to one day get democracy? And why is democracy so important for Iraq and not for Saudi Arabia. And why was Iraq the playground of terorism if none of the terorists of 9/11 were iraqis? And dont you condemn the action to let the Bin Laden family escape?

Do you only judge a war by the amount of american soldiers being killed? What about the promise to "smoke" Bin Laden out of his cave? Two years plus billions and billions of dollars have been wasted to catch those responsible for 9/11. Is it so difficult for the largest military in the world to catch just one man? With precision strikes maybe yes, but noone applied precision strikes on Afghanistan.

Don't believe everything you see in film, particularly Moore's propaganda masterpiece.  But if you insist, kindly view another film Fahren-HYPE 9/11.

Some of your questions are of the "if you helped them why not help these others" are a not so subtle implication that the U.S.A acts out self interest.  Let me disabuse you of your doubts, YES, the U.S acts out of self interest or perceived advantage just like EVERY other country in the world, I hope that's not a surprise to you, every nation represents its own citizens interests or interests.  Having said that the U.S. is also one of the most generous nations to its allies and Americans are some of the most charitable people in the world.

Quote[/b] ]Do you realy believe that "terorism" can be beaten by killing terorists? Do you realy believe that is the root of the problem?

Maybe not, but surely there is no reason to allow them to live.  Further we should include those that sympathesize in ways that amount to tactical and strategic support or aid to them.

Quote[/b] ]Judging all humans in the same way I would rather expect you to cry one or the other tear for those 300.000 civillians that have died in your strike against terorism. But none, not even Kerry ever voiced concern about the misery your nation has caused, the only concern was about US soldiers. Just like in Vietnam I know noone in America will ever apologise for it.

Kindly post the link to support your claim that "300,000" civilians have died at the hands of American war fighters.

As for the deaths of civilians in general, it is a very sad thing.  3,000 American civilians died in 9/11 and Americans were treated to scenes of merrymaking in the streets of many Muslim countries because of it.

War always results in the death of civilians, it has never been any other way.  The main difference is whether civilians are intentionally targeted or not.  American rules of engagement to not allow for targeting of civilians.  Terrorists have no such restraint.  

Saddam could have stepped down and avoided this war if he really had his country's best interests at heart.  Iraqis can inform on and surrender the terrorists within their midst and stop the violence.  But if there counting on Americans turning tail and fleeing all I can say is good luck.

[Colossus 2]

Oh great

Congrats Americans...bla..bla..bla, read my sign.

This shouldn't have happend, he was never elected in the first place.

Al Gore was the peoples choice  

Hope that Bush does something else then just war this time.

I belive this is a major setback to your country, becouse in the last 4 years millions of jobs has been lost

and it has been too much focus on war, not the national needs. I fear that there is gone be more bloodshed

and that people will hate/dislike America even more, which happend in the first 4 years.

Hope they know what they are doing.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]War always results in the death of civilians, it has never been any other way. The main difference is whether civilians are intentionally targeted or not. American rules of engagement to not allow for targeting of civilians. Terrorists have no such restraint.

I'm sick of hearing that crap.

The US does NOTHING to avoid civilian casualties. NOTHING!

Since you have missed my oft repeated analogy let me repeat it...AGAIN:

You CAN NOT drop a 2000lb bomb in the middle of a residential neighborhood in order to kill one man, and then claim you are trying to minimize civilian casualties. Is that so hard to believe?

You can not SIEGE an entire city, and refuse exit and claim you are trying to minimize civilian casualties.

How is that so hard to understand? Or do those lives just not matter? Better them than us right?

EDIT:

Quote[/b] ]As for the deaths of civilians in general, it is a very sad thing. 3,000 American civilians died in 9/11 and Americans were treated to scenes of merrymaking in the streets of many Muslim countries because of it.

Give me a break. So 3000 civilians + 1000 US soldiers clearly out weight 100,000+ Iraqi civilians alone? That is ridiculous. 100,000+ civilians have been killed in a war to (the reason de jour) liberate them. And they are treated to more death everyday, and are greated by an uncaring America. Gee. How do you think THAT will play out?

[IceFire 0]

Schweizer, I'm affraid you're being hopelessly optimistic in expecting any Bush supporter to answer your valid questions. I've watched this thread and all of them to be avoiding issues and just ignoring them.

What I find amusing that some people on this forum still think that war in Vietnam was still worth sacrificing thousands and thousands more American lives and consider Kerry a traitor and he only helped to save lives and stop the war. America had proved it's point, tide of communism was already stemmed enough and it was time to pull out.

You may want to discuss serious politics at this time, but we are too busy celebrating and feeling joy to get into the details of it.

But Schweizer,

The reason Bush is so popular despite all those details you mentioned regarding international affairs is because Americans look at everything from one main perspective, that's America and American values and the American way of life. Everything we do is intended to serve our country and serve our sense of American pride.

I'm not saying we don't care about the dead iraki civilians or vietnam. But in our viewpoint vietnam was tough time for America. We fought with courage, and lost many lives. We lost many soldiers in Irak, but these are only testaments to our courage and bravery as well as our willingness to selfsacrifice for our country. That is what it is all about. We are fighting in Irak for our ideals.

[Akira 0]

Schweizer, I'm affraid you're being hopelessly optimistic in expecting any Bush supporter to answer your valid questions. I've watched this thread and all of them to be avoiding issues and just ignoring them.

What I find amusing that some people on this forum still think that war in Vietnam was still worth sacrificing thousands and thousands more American lives and consider Kerry a traitor and he only helped to save lives and stop the war. America had proved it's point, tide of communism was already stemmed enough and it was time to pull out.

You may want to discuss serious politics at this time, but we are too busy celebrating and feeling joy to get into the details of it.

But Schweitzer,

The reason Bush is so popular despite all those details you mentioned regarding international affairs is because Americans look at everything from one main perspective, that's America and American values and the American way of life. Everything we do is intended to serve our country.

I'm not saying we don't care about the dead iraki civilians or vietnam. But in our viewpoint vietnam was tough time for America. We fought with courage, and lost many lives. We lost many soldiers in Irak, but these are only testaments to our courage and bravery as well as our willingness to selfsacrifice for our country. That is what it is all about. We are fighting in Irak for our ideals.

At least have enough respect to spell the damn country's name right.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]At least have enough respect to spell the damn countries name right.

Calm down, Akira. We all know your mad but do not blow a fuse.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]At least have enough respect to spell the damn countries name right.

Calm down, Akria. We all know your mad but do not blow a fuse.

At least have enough respect to spell my damn name right.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]At least have enough respect to spell my damn name right.

AKIRA

[igor drukov 0]

The following is an excerpt from this article, published on August 24th, 2003 in The Observer.

Quote[/b] ]It is incumbent upon journalists, I think, to distrust conspiracy theories. But the problem with the conspiracy theory of the machine that lifted George 'Dubya' Bush to high office is that it never lets you down; you wait for the trip wire, but walk on. This is hardly the place to recount my inspections of that mechanism but I did spend many weeks listening in Texas and days at the Securities and Exchange Commission sifting through box files, to become acquainted with its workings.

I wanted, just for instance, to find out which company bought Dresser Industries, once the world's biggest oil services company, of which Prescott Bush (Dubya's grandfather) was director and for which George Bush senior opened up the West Texas oil basin. It was Halliburton, recent beneficiary of a contract in Iraq, where Vice President Dick Cheney made his fortune after being Bush senior's Defence Secretary. And on it goes. President Bush broke all records in the history of campaign finance to get 'elected'. One of his biggest donors was 'Kenny Boy' Lay, CEO of the Enron Corporation, operator of one of the biggest company frauds ever. And among Enron's lav ishly paid consultants was, inevitably, Ralph Reed, former head of the right-wing Christian Coalition, recommended to the board by Karl Rove, the Svengali figure who managed all Bush's campaigns in Texas, and is now the most powerful man in the White House.

The entwinement of politics around the corporate boardroom had been rehearsed during Bush's governorship of Texas - once a nation, and most Texans would love it to be so again. But the Union prohibits that. So: if Texas cannot be a nation, make the nation into Texas.

For nearly a decade a group of people exiled from power during the Clinton years had been making plans. Their names are now more or less well known: Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, James Woolsey, Douglas Feith. In a series of papers they devised a blueprint for unchallenged and unchallengeable American power, military and political, across the globe, with the Middle East and Iraq as fulcrum. All that was needed to realise that dream - said a document produced by one of their many think-tanks, the Project for the New American Century - was 'a new Pearl Harbour'.

The belligerent *censored* are back in power. More time for them to make their dreams, our dystopian nightmares, come true.

Their site.

The reference mentioned at the end of my quote above is to be found on page 51. The document was written in 2000.

No news, I know, just a reminder.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]I still dont understand, still after hundred of pages discussing here with people, why a president who initially started a war for the wrong reasons is fully forgiven?

The fact remains, Saddam had no WMD and no democracy has been established in iraq. Fact is that Bush is the reason for at least 100.000 civillian casualties (newest studies). Do you forgive things like this? Do you oversee them? Are those lifes of no importance? Is this the prize to pay for a country to one day get democracy? And why is democracy so important for Iraq and not for Saudi Arabia. And why was Iraq the playground of terorism if none of the terorists of 9/11 were iraqis? And dont you condemn the action to let the Bin Laden family escape?

Do you only judge a war by the amount of american soldiers being killed? What about the promise to "smoke" Bin Laden out of his cave? Two years plus billions and billions of dollars have been wasted to catch those responsible for 9/11. Is it so difficult for the largest military in the world to catch just one man? With precision strikes maybe yes, but noone applied precision strikes on Afghanistan.

Quote[/b] ]Don't believe everything you see in film, particularly Moore's propaganda masterpiece. But if you insist, kindly view another film Fahren-HYPE 9/11.

All I saw in Scweizer's post were relevant questions without answers and clear facts. Nothing to do with Moore's propagandist movie.

Quote[/b] ]

Having said that the U.S. is also one of the most generous nations to its allies and Americans are some of the most charitable people in the world.

Oh yeah I forgot that. Maybe people should now just stop criticising or asking relevant questions which Bush supporters never seem bother to answer or counter.

[whisperFFW06 0]

Schweizer, I'm affraid you're being hopelessly optimistic in expecting any Bush supporter to answer your valid questions. I've watched this thread and all of them to be avoiding issues and just ignoring them.

What I find amusing that some people on this forum still think that war in Vietnam was still worth sacrificing thousands and thousands more American lives and consider Kerry a traitor and he only helped to save lives and stop the war. America had proved it's point, tide of communism was already stemmed enough and it was time to pull out.

You may want to discuss serious politics at this time, but we are too busy celebrating and feeling joy to get into the details of it.

But Schweizer,

The reason Bush is so popular despite all those details you mentioned regarding international affairs is because Americans look at everything from one main perspective, that's America and American values and the American way of life.  Everything we do is intended to serve our country and serve our sense of American pride.

I'm not saying we don't care about the dead iraki civilians or vietnam.  But in our viewpoint vietnam was tough time for America.  We fought with courage, and lost many lives.  We lost many soldiers in Irak, but these are only testaments to our courage and bravery as well as our willingness to selfsacrifice for our country.  That is what it is all about.  We are fighting in Irak for our ideals.

I can't believe I just read that...

[IceFire 0]

Schweizer, I'm affraid you're being hopelessly optimistic in expecting any Bush supporter to answer your valid questions. I've watched this thread and all of them to be avoiding issues and just ignoring them.

What I find amusing that some people on this forum still think that war in Vietnam was still worth sacrificing thousands and thousands more American lives and consider Kerry a traitor and he only helped to save lives and stop the war. America had proved it's point, tide of communism was already stemmed enough and it was time to pull out.

You may want to discuss serious politics at this time, but we are too busy celebrating and feeling joy to get into the details of it.

But Schweitzer,

The reason Bush is so popular despite all those details you mentioned regarding international affairs is because Americans look at everything from one main perspective, that's America and American values and the American way of life. Everything we do is intended to serve our country.

I'm not saying we don't care about the dead iraki civilians or vietnam. But in our viewpoint vietnam was tough time for America. We fought with courage, and lost many lives. We lost many soldiers in Irak, but these are only testaments to our courage and bravery as well as our willingness to selfsacrifice for our country. That is what it is all about. We are fighting in Irak for our ideals.

At least have enough respect to spell the damn country's name right.

Fine, Iraq.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Oh yeah I forgot that. Maybe people should now just stop criticising or asking relevant questions which Bush supporters never seem bother to answer or counter.

It is a mystery! The exit-polls had Kerry +2 or +3 in the battleground states.

[IceFire 0]

Schweizer, I'm affraid you're being hopelessly optimistic in expecting any Bush supporter to answer your valid questions. I've watched this thread and all of them to be avoiding issues and just ignoring them.

What I find amusing that some people on this forum still think that war in Vietnam was still worth sacrificing thousands and thousands more American lives and consider Kerry a traitor and he only helped to save lives and stop the war. America had proved it's point, tide of communism was already stemmed enough and it was time to pull out.

You may want to discuss serious politics at this time, but we are too busy celebrating and feeling joy to get into the details of it.

But Schweizer,

The reason Bush is so popular despite all those details you mentioned regarding international affairs is because Americans look at everything from one main perspective, that's America and American values and the American way of life. Everything we do is intended to serve our country and serve our sense of American pride.

I'm not saying we don't care about the dead iraki civilians or vietnam. But in our viewpoint vietnam was tough time for America. We fought with courage, and lost many lives. We lost many soldiers in Irak, but these are only testaments to our courage and bravery as well as our willingness to selfsacrifice for our country. That is what it is all about. We are fighting in Irak for our ideals.

I can't believe I just read that...

Freedom is an American ideal that we have alot of pride in. That is what we are fighting for in iraq. That is why people are willing to support it like we are. This is why we support Bush. Our soldiers deaths are a sad but proud reminder of our patriotism and willingness to fight for those ideals in iraq.

[DB-ERAUPilot 0]

I think my biggest concern about bush besides his fucked up economic policy is his foreign policy...and the lack of enough troops to fight "HIS" war. again I raise the question of what happens when an actual threat arises in N Korea, Iran, Syria,China or a larger resurgence of al-quaida in Afghanistan..and before some restard with NO CLUE starts saying there is a true coalition in iraq...did yall know the third largest fighting force in Iraq today are AMERICAN contractors(Mercenaries) right behind the uniformed US military and our British brethren?....you can talk about how great Bush is or whatever that issue is one that can't be ignored judging how VERY likely it is within the next four years we'll be conductin another war on another nation.

[Badgerboy 0]

Okay Icefire, please define freedom for me, and how it relates to the Iraq conflict. And no soundbites please, I want a good explanation.

[whisperFFW06 0]

Freedom is an American ideal that we have alot of pride in.  That is what we are fighting for in iraq.  That is why people are willing to support it like we are.  This is why we support Bush.  Our soldiers deaths are a sad but proud reminder of our patriotism and willingness to fight for those ideals in iraq.

That's not what you initially said. And what you initially said is... scary  

Quote[/b] ]Everything we do is intended to serve our country and serve our sense of American pride.

I take it's the same for war in Iraq. To serve your sense of American pride... * jaws dropping * You know there have been 100.000 lives lost to serve your sense of American pride?

Quote[/b] ]I'm not saying we don't care about the dead iraki civilians or vietnam.  But in our viewpoint vietnam was tough time for America.

Read : we don't bother for Vietnameses (sp?), it was hard enough for us.

Quote[/b] ]We fought with courage, and lost many lives.  We lost many soldiers in Irak, but these are only testaments to our courage and bravery

Hint : world don't care about your bravery, no need to show us.

Quote[/b] ]as well as our willingness to selfsacrifice for our country

Quote[/b] ]That is what it is all about.  We are fighting in Irak for our ideals

Iraqis may have ideals too, but who gives a f*** anyway...

EDIT : sry for OT

[GoOB 0]

We are fighting in Irak for our ideals.

It would be swell if Americans would realize, that starting wars don't make your ideals look very sweet. Especially when the clean-up job after the initial invasion is being done in a sloppy way.

I for one, could care less about "American ideals" - So fight amongst yourselves for them.

EDIT: And how, do you plan on furthering "freedom" by invading countries? I can't see Iraq stabilizing anytime soon, and Afghanistan. Whoowee! Things are looking up for the citizens there.

EDIT2: Silly typo.

[ericz 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm sick of hearing that crap.

The US does NOTHING to avoid civilian casualties. NOTHING!

And you have personal experience with this I assume????

Quote[/b] ]You CAN NOT drop a 2000lb bomb in the middle of a residential neighborhood in order to kill one man, and then claim you are trying to minimize civilian casualties. Is that so hard to believe?

You can not SIEGE an entire city, and refuse exit and claim you are trying to minimize civilian casualties.

There is any easy way to resolve this with minimal bloodshed, give up the terrorists.

Quote[/b] ]Better them than us right?

In a word YES.

Quote[/b] ]Give me a break. So 3000 civilians + 1000 US soldiers clearly out weight 100,000+ Iraqi civilians alone? That is ridiculous. 100,000+ civilians have been killed in a war to (the reason de jour) liberate them. And they are treated to more death everyday, and are greated by an uncaring America. Gee. How do you think THAT will play out?

Any death is significant, I haven't seen any figures that would suggest "100,000+"  Iraqi civilian deaths at the hands of Americans. Prove it.   More death at the hands of the insurgents, yes.  The insurgents don't seem to share your sympathies with the Iraqi people.

Blake

Quote[/b] ]All I saw in Scweizer's post were relevant questions without answers and clear facts. Nothing to do with Moore's propagandist movie.  

I suggest you re-read his quote "Fact is that Bush is the reason for at least 100.000 civillian casualties (newest studies).".  ; "And dont you condemn the action to let the Bin Laden family escape?"

That is clearly along the line of "reasoning "(if you can call it that) that is proposed by Moores film.

Quote[/b] ]Oh yeah I forgot that. Maybe people should now just stop criticising or asking relevant questions which Bush supporters never seem bother to answer or counter.

One should ask relevant questions first, then criticize if appropriate.  Let me ease your mind,  the Bush supporters I know have lively debates on issues of President Bush's policies all the time.

[Tactician 0]

The reason Bush is so popular despite all those details you mentioned regarding international affairs is because Americans look at everything from one main perspective, that's America and American values and the American way of life. Everything we do is intended to serve our country and serve our sense of American pride.

I'm not saying we don't care about the dead iraki civilians or vietnam. But in our viewpoint vietnam was tough time for America. We fought with courage, and lost many lives. We lost many soldiers in Irak, but these are only testaments to our courage and bravery as well as our willingness to selfsacrifice for our country. That is what it is all about. We are fighting in Irak for our ideals.

What is national pride worth to other nations? Why can't we have any pride in the human race, rather than a relatively small population within imaginary geographic boundaries? How super a power does America need to be for its people to be safe?

The way I see it, conservatives stand for social nostalgia and liberals stand for social progress. Nostalgia is great.. if you want to breed fascism, like Mussolini.

Why are we fighting in Iraq for our ideals and not the Iraqi people's ideals? Isn't that sort of an asshole thing to do?

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Freedom is an American ideal that we have alot of pride in. That is what we are fighting for in iraq. That is why people are willing to support it like we are. This is why we support Bush. Our soldiers deaths are a sad but proud reminder of our patriotism and willingness to fight for those ideals in iraq.

Freedom is an exclusive American ideal, please spare me...

What comes to believing in ideal of freedom, US has never been consistent with it. Countless of military dictatorships around the world have been supported by US in the name of US intrests, not freedom.

Yeah, I did support the war against Saddam's Iraq and Taliban-Afganistan for the sake of getting rid of those regimes. But what I don't buy the propaganda that Iraq war was marketed in the first place - namely the non-existent WMDs and immediate threat claims - and clinging on those claims to this day. And what is more amazing that people still vote for leader of the world's most powerful nation who himself still holds belief in those fairy tales and that Saddam was somehow involved in 9/11. That's plain insulting to anybody's intelligence by now. Needless to say what mistakes were made by initial invasion and resulting lack of plan for stabilization and securing.

[whisperFFW06 0]

Quote[/b] ]Give me a break. So 3000 civilians + 1000 US soldiers clearly out weight 100,000+ Iraqi civilians alone? That is ridiculous. 100,000+ civilians have been killed in a war to (the reason de jour) liberate them. And they are treated to more death everyday, and are greated by an uncaring America. Gee. How do you think THAT will play out?

Any death is significant, I haven't seen any figures that would suggest "100,000+"  Iraqi civilian deaths at the hands of Americans. Prove it.   More death at the hands of the insurgents, yes.  The insurgents don't seem to share your sympathies with the Iraqi people.

A specific scientific group made a study pre and post start of the war, and accounted US/allied operations for 100.000 additional civilian casualties in Iraq. Results were shown last week if I remember well.

edited to clearly show casualties counted were civilians and not insurgents/terrorists...