Hkm4

[Unhappy customer 0]

The whole point of having high powered weapons available to civillian populations wasn't intended to promote crime. In fact most crimes are commited with small hand guns that are easy to conceal. It is not reasonable for a criminal to have a long assault rifle, it makes you stick out like a sore thumb in public. The whole point of an armed civillian population as created by the forefathers of the United States is actually a part of a system of "checks and ballances" to keep our government in line. Weapons give the people the power to overthrow the government if it abuses their power, and therefore ensures that government continues to work for the people and not against it. Crime is an unfortunate side effect and part of the cost of being free. Although if people would take responsibility to raise their children correctly, there would be very little crime in the first place.

[shinRaiden 0]

So, Colt is asserting their right to market inferior products, and continue to market them as superior solely on the portfolio of long-term contracts.

Since the HK variant is technically superior, there must be some mechanical or manufacturing or, god forbid, actual quality control, all of which would make it different, and not a copied clone. They should send their lawyers back to school to clean up their "duplicate" vs. "derivative" confusion.

[Pathy 0]

OffT: i donlt think anybody needs a gun to feel safe.....what kind of society has the mentality that if you dont have a gun your unsafe? Not one i'd like to live in, thats for sure...(thanks god for UK's gun laws)...i also dont think the people need guns to keep their government in check.....whats the Ballot Box for?

OnT: Wow what a suprise, HK's M4 is similar to Colts...well it wouldnt be an M4 if it wasnt....Colt are just sore they are loosing a contract......

[Gordy 0]

Well, it is better that H&K is entering the M4 market with its invention.

I remember that here in Poland AT Police were forced to use clone weapons (AT were complaining about constant jams). It was the case until the sudden clash between AT and two gangsters (one of them was ex-specnaz) in the Villa in the woods. The result was the whole night fight, two gangsters & AT dead and about 20 injured.

Now, they got resourcers to buy originals Like H&K36C, MP5.

They didn't make the same mistake with the military SF, aka GROM. It is said that delta, sas and other were jealous to see GROM's equipment.

But the point is that the better the competition the better the product available.

[stgn 39]

Well, it is better that H&K is entering the M4 market with its invention.

I remember that here in Poland AT Police were forced to use clone weapons (AT were complaining about constant jams). It was the case until the sudden clash between AT and two gangsters (one of them was ex-specnaz) in the Villa in the woods. The result was the whole night fight, two gangsters & AT dead and about 20 injured.

Now, they got resourcers to buy originals Like H&K36C, MP5.

They didn't make the same mistake with the military SF, aka GROM. It is said that delta, sas and other were jealous to see GROM's equipment.

But the point is that the better the competition the better the product available.

jealous ?? GROM uses SOPMOD M4, MP5 and older russian equipment?? I saw they where isued LBW88(or somthing simular) when they took Uhm Casar(whats it called).

STGN

[Unhappy customer 0]

The HK M-4 isn't a clone.  It's has a G-36 piston operating system in place of the original M-4 equitment.  You have to remember that the M-16 is a 30 year old design.  HK simply put their improved system into the M-4 platform.

Also a ballott box will not keep your government "in check" your government decides to take the ballott box away.  Of course this probably wont happen if your government knows that they will 10 million angry armed people show up on their doorstep....  Also keep in mind that when our (United States) forefathers created the US constitution, they had absolutely no idea whether or not it would work. I think that big concern was that an elected president would suddenly declare himself king of the USA.  Although this probably isn't a concern in the modern US; you never know....

Also my thoughts on guns and crime.  The police can't be everywhere at once.  About all they can do is put someone in jail AFTER that person has shot you.  Also if you live in a rural area, Police response isn't necessarily fast.  I live in the city, and I personally don't own a gun.  I have small children, and they could potentially hurt themselves.  Certain store owners definately need guns.  The idea here is to make robberies so hazardous to criminals that they are less likely to commit this crime.  This is a big advantage of having an armed population.  If criminals fear that any person they attack could shoot and kill them, then they may be convinced to take up a less violent occupation.  Of course you "superior to everyone else ultra-liberal, quasi-commie europeans" would probably think of this as psycological torture to the poor innocent criminals....  (the lawyers have taken over your countries)

And please keep in mind that common citizens aren't the enemy here.  Why do we want to punish the good people for the crimes of the criminals?  We want to take away the guns of the law abiding citizens, but let the criminals keep theirs?  And why?  So that the police can have job security?  Of course you Europeans would probably say well common citizens aren't intelligent enough to know how to be responsible.  Here in the USA we asume that people are intelligent enough to have certain rights and privledges.  So while you europeans openly admit that you aren't smart enough to handle certain privledges, here in the US we are still enjoying the freedoms of a capitolist democratic society while it still lasts....

Sorry I am getting too political now... I will stop.

[EiZei 0]

Also a ballott box will not keep your government "in check" your government decides to take the ballott box away. Of course this probably wont happen if your government knows that they will 10 million angry armed people show up on their doorstep.... Also keep in mind that when our (United States) forefathers created the US constitution, they had absolutely no idea whether or not it would work. I think that big concern was that an elected president would suddenly declare himself king of the USA. Although this probably isn't a concern in the modern US; you never know....

*cough*Iraq*cough*

Quote[/b] ](the lawyers have taken over your countries)

From what country were you from again?

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]*cough*Iraq*cough*

Bush hasn't called himself king, he hasn't even served a full term in office.

Quote[/b] ]Also if you live in a rural area, Police response isn't necessarily fast.

I'm with you here. Police response to my house, if they could find the dirt driveway in the middle of the night, is about 15 minutes. If someone breaks in, we can't rely on the police to do anything for us.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]*cough*Iraq*cough*

Bush hasn't called himself king, he hasn't even served a full term in office.

Just pointing out the number of heavy weaponry owned by civilians in Iraq even during Saddams era.

[Pathy 0]

Ok Unhappy Customer, look at the UK, low gun crime rate, nobody is scared of the Government taking over, and nobody but Criminals, Police and the Armed Forces have access to guns.

Now look at the US.....see my point.

Again, you dont need guns to act as a check or balance on the government. If anything its going to have the opposite effect. Cmon, look at the most successful campaigns against governments in history, you have Ghandi's revolution in india, Martin Luther Kings campaign for Black civil rights, hell, even the Russian Revolution was bloodless. The people there only got weapons because the soldiers fed up with World War One decided to let them into the armoury, and even then, those propaganda pictures you see of "the storming of the winter palace" arent true. There were only a handful of people killed.

Truth is, there is no justification to having such liberal gun laws. History has shown non-violent methods are the only legitimate, and most effective, ways of changing things within your own country.

Im sure the fully paid up NRA member Unhappy Customer would dissagree, but......

[stgn 39]

The HK M-4 isn't a clone.  It's has a G-36 piston operating system in place of the original M-4 equitment.  You have to remember that the M-16 is a 30 year old design.  HK simply put their improved system into the M-4 platform.

Firts of eventho its a 30 year old system it is still one of the best remember the xm8 is bild up around this system or at least thats how I read it. And as I understand it, it is not a G36 gas piston in a M4 cause you would not need the "pipe"(forgotten what it is called its where the spring sits) in the end of the weapon and I am sure it wouden't fit in an M4 no matter how hard you tryed. What HK did was to prevent the gas from getting in to the upper reciver and press the bolt back insted they do it in some other way proplery whit some sort of stick(just my guessing I havent seen it in real life) this pervents the gas from "messing up" the internal system of the M4 this was the reason why M16 cot a bad start of its life whit bullet powder not burning good enoug and sent poluted gas in to the M16 and cause the M16 was roumered to need no cleaning the guns jamed but if you use a realy good burning powder you actualy don't see much of this problem I have been told that the M1 Garand is using the same system(gas that press the bolt back).

So I can see why Colt is protecting there M4 cause the Hk one aint that much different but FN got the contract to deliver M16A2 to the US Army cause they could do it cheaper after which the army turend for a M16A3(and M4) so Colt again could produce the gun

STGN

ps. I am not 100% sure this is totaly right so please say if I got somthing rong.

edit*ups rong I meant right*

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]Cmon, look at the most successful campaigns against governments in history, you have Ghandi's revolution in india,

Actually Ghandi is quoted as saying "of all the deeds of England in India, The disarmement of an entire nation shall be remembered amongst the darkest" I'm very tired right now and going to bed right afte this reply so I don't feel like searching for it right now.

The thing that cemented my opinion against Gun control was a holocaust survivor. He was a speaker at my highschool sophmore year. When he was done with his story he began taking questions. One of the guys in my school asked ," Why didn't you all just rise up and rebel" to which one of the teachers butted in and said " well violence is never the solution". The Holocaust survivor then snapped " We couldn't do a damn thing because the Government had disarmed us all.". He then went on to talk about Gun control in Nazi Germany. He finished by saying that knowing what he knows now he would of stockpiled weapons and hid them.

Quote[/b] ]whats the Ballot Box for?

I'm sure a lot of people where asking the same question during the 30s.

[ralphwiggum 6]

i think i mentioned a few pages ago that this thread is for discussion of HK product, specifically the HK M4, not about politics of gun.

[Pathy 0]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhaaaa.....me and the boys are goin' down to the trailer park........

Damnit Ralphie i want to reply. Cmon, pleeeeaaase........