Bush vietnam service record released

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ] John Kerry

Kerry's involvment in the Winter Soldier "hearings" destroyed any of my respect for his military career.

Focus on the important things, not Bush's military attendance record. Remember, Clinton was a Grade A draft dodger .

[Hjaldar 0]

Well, does it matter if a president was in the military, if he gets blowjobs from another woman or if he is a christian? I thought his job was political business, not shooting, "relaxing" or praying...

Btw, anybody is better than Bush. Except for Cheney, maybe.

[walker 0]

Quote[/b] ] John Kerry

Kerry's involvment in the Winter Soldier "hearings" destroyed any of my respect for his military career.

Focus on the important things, not Bush's military attendance record. Remember, Clinton was a Grade A draft dodger .

Hi m21man

When doubt post off toppic huh?

Well as you brought it up.

It takes Moral Courage to Draft Dodge witness people who would rather go to Jail than serve. Whether you agree with their politics or no they fight for what they beleive in then do the time to prove it.

It takes a serious goldbricker to be a Vietnam War Dodger like George Bush Jnr.

If he is not a Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Jnr. can sue me but I advice him not too he would loose.

Kind Regards Walker

[Hjaldar 0]

"Okay, now I can bomb Iowa... Iran... Italy... err..."

- "Iraq, Sir."

-"Oh yes, that was the island."

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]It takes Moral Courage to Draft Dodge witness people who would rather go to Jail than serve.

That isn't brave at all. There isn't much of a risk of getting killed when you're in prison.

Quote[/b] ]When doubt post off toppic huh?

It was ontopic, considering that you're talking about Vietnam Service Records.

Quote[/b] ]It takes a serious goldbricker to be a Vietnam War Dodger like George Bush Jnr.

So let me get this straight: Dodging the war one way is very bad, but dodging it another way is courageous   ?

[walker 0]

Hi m21man

Quote[/b] ]It takes Moral Courage to Draft Dodge witness people who would rather go to Jail than serve.

That isn't brave at all. There isn't much of a risk of getting killed when you're in prison.

Err? courts put you in jail as a punishmet mate no to tickle your toes. Various reolutionaries in the US are considered heroes because they served time in British prisons in your war for independance. Unless of course you dont think they were heroes by going to jail. In which case I guess I just beg to differ.

Quote[/b] ]When doubt post off toppic huh?

It was ontopic, considering that you're talking about Vietnam Service Records.

The bit about Clinton who is not even in the next election? Why dont you also drag in JFK and and Hoover... Heck you coud drag in UGG the third the last caveman king of the neolithic; but hey I went with you on it.:D

Quote[/b] ]It takes a serious goldbricker to be a Vietnam War Dodger like George Bush Jnr.

So let me get this straight: Dodging the war one way is very bad, but dodging it another way is courageous   ?

Yes you heard me correct and you have a point I presume. So please make it.

Kind Regards Walker

[Akira 0]

Whether it is a non-issue regarding ability to be president is a moot point. Many voters do think it is important and that is what matters.

A friend of mine is getting his PhD in political science, and his main disertation is on the correlation between service record of a candidate and voting.

I won't even try to pretend to understand the model that he uses nor the number crunching involved, but needless to say there is a very strong correlation between service record and electability.

This issue could hurt Bush, especially if he keeps pushing his nine glorious days, as opposed to skipperin' a gunboat in the thick of the fight (I won't even bring up the medals).

EDIT: Man.......love the UGG comment

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Various reolutionaries in the US are considered heroes because they served time in British prisons in your war for independance..

Name them. I have never heard anyone hear say "He was a hero in the Revolutionary War because he spent time in British prisons." Some rebel leaders certainly did, but they aren't famous because they were imprisoned.

Going to prison for a bit (You're not exactly going to get 20-to-life for draft dodging) was simply a way to hide.

Quote[/b] ]The bit about Clinton who is not even in the next election?

He dodged the Vietnam War even more blatantly than Bush did, yet I never heard many reporters bitch about his record.

Quote[/b] ]Why dont you also drag JFK and and Hoover Heck you coud drag in UGG the third the last caveman king of the neolithic; but hey I went with you on it.:D

You fool, his name was ORG, not UGG .

Quote[/b] ]Whether it is a non-issue regarding ability to be president is a moot point. Many voters do think it is important and that is what matters.

A friend of mine is getting his PhD in political science, and his main disertation is on the correlation between service record of a candidate and voting.

I won't even try to pretend to understand the model that he uses nor the number crunching involved, but needless to say there is a very strong correlation between service record and electability.

This issue could hurt Bush, especially if he keeps pushing his nine glorious days, as opposed to skipperin' a gunboat in the thick of the fight (I won't even bring up the medals).

Anyone remember the 1992 election? Where war-dodging Clinton beat combat pilot Bush?

Quote[/b] ]Yes you heard me correct and you have a point I presume. So please make it.

If you're serious, then there's no way I can even argue with you. How can you believe that dodging one way is bad and dodging another way is noble? It's like saying that murdering with a gun is terrible, but murdering with a knife is wonderful.

[WhoCares 0]

So let me get this straight: Dodging the war one way is very bad, but dodging it another way is courageous   ?

While it slips into the Middle East topic, a simple example:

Just recently 4 young guys were imprisoned in Israel for dodging the draft. Nothing special so far, except that there are certain arrangements which would have allowed them to legally avoid doing military service, e.g. claiming to be pacifists.

But instead, they choosed to refused to serve because they can't identify with the way and the goals that the current israeli administration sets for the army.

So they choosed a criminal conviction and public disrespect by sticking to their political beliefs.

Back to the topic, yes, there is a difference between standing up for your believes and buying you an easy way around the trouble...

PS: Somebody else might search for an article about those israeli guys. I saw a report about them on TV, maybe two or three weeks ago...

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]He dodged the Vietnam War even more blatantly than Bush did, yet I never heard many reporters bitch about his record.

During the election there was a lot of news about it. Now of course you don't hear anything about it because he's busy winning Grammy's.

Quote[/b] ]Anyone remember the 1992 election? Where war-dodging Clinton beat combat pilot Bush?

I said there was a correlation, not an absolute. Even Teddy R. lost when he tried to come back in. Why I said I won't even try to explain the number crunching, since they also take into account hundreds of other factors. The bottom line is the better service record generally has a better chance.

Clinton was charismatic and encouraged the youth to vote. Bush Sr was like watching a brick.

[Tydium 0]

While searching the net about this topic I found an interesting site. The site shows documents about Bush's military carreer obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. Complete list of the documents can be found here.

Most interesting part of the site was this.

Quote[/b] ]

As is evident from the above, one of the elements of desertion is intent to remain away permanently. Bush asked for discharge from the TANG on September 5, 1973, and apparently left for grad school immediately after. (Does anyone know of university grad school years starting after September?) Now, let's take another look at that excerpt from the Texas Military Code.

(b) A commissioned officer of the state military forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away permanently is guilty of desertion.

So... On September 5th, 1973, George Bush asked for discharge (resigned from) the Texas Air National Guard, thereby stating his intent to not return to duty with the TANG. Now let us examine another document

That document is Bush's Discharge from the TANG. Notice block 33, at the bottom: "NOT AVAILABLE FOR SIGNATURE". There it is, folks. Bush left Texas before his resignation from the TANG was approved. There is your evidence of desertion.

Now if this is true it could cause some problems for Bush's reelection campaing.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just recently 4 young guys were imprisoned in Israel for dodging the draft. Nothing special so far, except that there are certain arrangements which would have allowed them to legally avoid doing military service, e.g. claiming to be pacifists.

But instead, they choosed to refused to serve because they can't identify with the way and the goals that the current israeli administration sets for the army.

So they choosed a criminal conviction and public disrespect by sticking to their political beliefs.

Yay! So they wasted some poor military paper-pusher's time because they didn't want to get an exemption . Was there any point to this protest? I'm sure it did a lot towards ending the violence .

Quote[/b] ]Back to the topic, yes, there is a difference between standing up for your believes and buying you an easy way around the trouble...

And these great beliefs they had! They didn't give much of a shit when the North barged into Saigon, because no risk was posed to them . They could smoke their pot in peace.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just recently 4 young guys were imprisoned in Israel for dodging the draft. Nothing special so far, except that there are certain arrangements which would have allowed them to legally avoid doing military service, e.g. claiming to be pacifists.

But instead, they choosed to refused to serve because they can't identify with the way and the goals that the current israeli administration sets for the army.

So they choosed a criminal conviction and public disrespect by sticking to their political beliefs.

Yay! So they wasted some poor military paper-pusher's time because they didn't want to get an exemption . Was there any point to this protest? I'm sure it did a lot towards ending the violence .

He was answering your question or comment about how one dodging is more "heroic" than another.

Instead of taking the legal way out, they stood up for their belief against what the IDF was doing.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]He was answering your question or comment about how one dodging is more "heroic" than another.

Instead of taking the legal way out, they stood up for their belief against what the IDF was doing.

Idiotically. Their protest served no function, except to waste some peoples' time. This can't even be compared to the Vietnam drafts, as those weren't usually optional (Unless you had medical problems).

[WhoCares 0]

They could smoke their pot in peace.

And so could do Bush, while doing his fake service. That's the whole point in this discussion...

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]And so could do Bush, while doing his fake service. That's the whole point in this discussion...

And since when has Bush been a pot-head ? He did get at least one DUI, though (For driving too slowly ).

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Idiotically. Their protest served no function, except to waste some peoples' time. This can't even be compared to the Vietnam drafts, as those weren't usually optional (Unless you had medical problems).

Exactly. Because they weren't optional, it becomes more of a "heroic" act.

Quote[/b] ]And since when has Bush been a pot-head ? He did get at least one DUI, though (For driving too slowly ).

Let us not forget the coke as well, the drug of choice to rich boys.

[WhoCares 0]

And since when has Bush been a pot-head ? He did get at least one DUI, though (For driving too slowly ).

And why do you always point to the unimportant part of the statements? It is about his (not-)service...

And I never claimed he did, I just said he 'could do' (should have been 'could have done', okay)

[Tovarish 0]

He probably never was a pothead, but he refuses to say that he didn't use cocaine

[ralphwiggum 6]

Bush never outright said he never used cocaine. kinda suspicious if you ask me.

for Clinton's draft 'dodging' at least it was done with his own power, not thanks to family name like Bush. Clinton was on Rhodes scholarship when he wwent to England, and prior to that he was in ROTC, which he dropped out of before going to England.

in other words, he was able to get his 'dodging' by actually doing something that was sacntioned by law. he went through the system and managed to take advantage, but did so fair and square.

Many GOP criticized Clintont for this. but I see little or no criticism of Bush from same 'moral' GOP that denounced Clinton. hypocrisy cannot be any closer.

[Schoeler 0]

Quote[/b] ]And so could do Bush, while doing his fake service. That's the whole point in this discussion...

And since when has Bush been a pot-head ? He did get at least one DUI, though (For driving too slowly ).

You are absolutely right, Bus WAS NOT a pothead, get it right!! He was a cokehead!!

[walker 0]

While searching the net about this topic I found an interesting site. The site shows documents about Bush's military carreer obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. Complete list of the documents can be found here.

Most interesting part of the site was this.

Quote[/b] ]

As is evident from the above, one of the elements of desertion is intent to remain away permanently. Bush asked for discharge from the TANG on September 5, 1973, and apparently left for grad school immediately after. (Does anyone know of university grad school years starting after September?) Now, let's take another look at that excerpt from the Texas Military Code.

(b) A commissioned officer of the state military forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away permanently is guilty of desertion.

So... On September 5th, 1973, George Bush asked for discharge (resigned from) the Texas Air National Guard, thereby stating his intent to not return to duty with the TANG. Now let us examine another document

That document is Bush's Discharge from the TANG. Notice block 33, at the bottom: "NOT AVAILABLE FOR SIGNATURE". There it is, folks. Bush left Texas before his resignation from the TANG was approved. There is your evidence of desertion.

Now if this is true it could cause some problems for Bush's reelection campaing.

Hi Tydium

Shocking info but is it real?

Wow I did not beleive George Bush Jnr. was a deserter and I am still sceptical. We need to see these doccuments examined by profesional reporters can every one take copies of the pages just in case and post links to your national media for them to investigate.

Gobsmacked walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

The news is breaking

http://democrats.com/display.cfm?id=132

Naughty George now the Special Prosecutor will spank you.

Gotcha

Walker

[Schoeler 0]

I have a feeling this dog is going to start hunting as soon as we get the field of Democratic candidates narrowed down to one or two.

[Tydium 0]

Well the claim on the site is based on these two documents.

Document 1

Document 2

According to document 1 Bush requested a discharge on 5th of September in 1973. And according to document 2 it was granted on 1st of October in 1973.

According the Texas military code

Quote[/b] ]

Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 147, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1987. § 432.130. Desertion

    (a) A member of the state military forces is guilty of desertion if the member:

    (1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away permanently;

    (2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or

    (3) without being regularly separated from one of the state military forces, enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another of the state military forces, or in one of the armed forces of the United States, without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated.

    (b) A commissioned officer of the state military forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away permanently is guilty of desertion.  

  © A person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished as a court-martial directs.

Now are these documents real ? I don't know but they sure look like it. And the site also list a cover letter that apparently came with the documents. The big question is did Bush went AWOL before his discharge was approved ? We don't know. All we know that he did not sign his discharge papers as you can see from document 2 ("NOT AVAILABLE FOR SIGNATURE"). This probably means that he wasn't at his base on 1st of October.