The "community"

[Ironsight 1]

Great idea but the picture should have a meaning

[KTottE 0]

First of all I would like to clarify that I'm writing this in my position as the head honcho in the #ofpec IRC channel (on irc.quakenet.org), and not as an addonmaker. In fact, the only addon I've ever made that's made it beyond my computer is the time-fused grenades used in the ECP, and those were heavily modded by the ECP guys

Now, the "crusade" that DeadMeat is referring to (I won't use that word since it sends the wrong kind of message) is that I have noted a rather sad trend in #ofpec, where most of the time people can't get help with their editing or addon related questions, due to the others not caring or even actively flame people that come in with questions. Now I don't know about you, but I think that's rather bad in a channel that's supposed to be there to help people with editing and addon related questions.

So, what I am doing is that I will actively work to improve the attitude and atmosphere in the channel, trying to eliminate some of the harsh language and get rid of the flamings. It is possible with cleaned up IRC channels, I have visited them so I know.

Now, this process in the #ofpec IRC channel has nothing, whatsoever, to do with what DeadMeat started this thread off with. In this thread he is speaking in his position as a member of the BAS addon team, and not in his position as #ofpec staff.

Our IRC channel has rules regarding foul language* and flaming, and we will actively enforce our rules if someone breaks them.

Note however that this regards foul language and flaming, and not peoples opinions. And it has nothing, whatsoever, to do with this thread.

If someone comes into #ofpec and has a lot of grief about BAS addons, he's very welcome to express this, as long as it's kept within the rules of the channel (don't use foul language and don't flame people). This also holds true if someone comes in and thinks George Bush is a bad president, or thinks that the Rolling Stones should retire, or whatever the topic of the discussion may be.

We will not, ever, kick or ban someone for disliking an addon, or disliking an addonmaker.

We will kick or ban someone that breaks the rules of the channel.

That being said I figured I would contribute to the topic of this thread.

Our hopes, at least my hope, is that by our actions we can create a flame-free place for people to come to. Once we have inflicted this small change on the OFP community, we will try to inflict it on the rest of the community too.

Now, I am realistic, I know that there will always be the small bunch of people that are never happy, that always finds small mistakes in peoples work, and of course there's the people who simply enjoy harassing other people. We know we can never change them, and we don't want to change them either, it's quite simple to just ignore what they say.

What might be an idea however is to highlight the other people in the community. We all know that the rotten eggs are just a fraction of the community, but why aren't we seeing more of the majority of the community?

The ones that are able to give constructive criticism etc.

If we try to encourage them to get more involved, and if they behave, we will see a dramatic drop in the amount of rotten eggs.

It all boils down to respect.

The community needs to respect the addonmakers for their talent, but mostly just for the simple fact that they are actively trying to improve the game that we play and love.

But at the same time, it's a two-way street. The addonmakers have to respect the community. Without the community, there would be no real reason to make addons, and any artist has to respect his audience.

Treat people the way you want them to treat you

[Ironsight 1]

kTottE I don't agree with your last sentence, addon-makers make addons for themselves in the first place, mostly not for community use.

We should be happy that addon-makers are willing to share their addons and RESPECT THE ADDON-MAKERS

[MEDICUS 0]

Great idea but the picture should have a meaning

like this one:

                     

[dm 9]

I would also like to point out, and make it nice and clear (here goes the big text)

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>I am NOT trying to stop ALL critisim of an addon, as I've said before, we WELCOME it, IF it is constructive.

What I AM trying to get rid of (and encourage others to get rid of) is the un-neccessary bad-attitude and the obscene language that often goes along with bug reports.</span>

I'm discussing it with several people right now on IRC (in the #ofpec channel) and something interesting came to light.

Every time you ignore something, yes it no longer affects YOU directly, but it will continue, it will grow, and it will go on to affect other people.

What happens in a generation, when those "12 year old whiners" have become 20 or 30 year old people? Because they have NOT had the direction that their whining, and their attitude is NOT the "correct" attitude to have, they will continue to act like it. I see it all around me on a daily basis in college, we regualrly get thrown out of the cafe because people don't think it neccessary to put their rubbish in the bins. Because they have grown up with that ideal it will carry on with them right through their lives. And its true, everywhere you go, you see more and more litter, vandalism, and lack of respect.

A small effort it may be here and now, but it could mean all the difference in the future.

The idea is not to flame them back (as tempting as it might be) but to talk to them on a normal and human level, and say "look mate, thats not the right way to talk to someone how would you like it if everyone talked to you like that?"

I don't know how many people I've seen try to make addons, but simply give up because countless people have said that "its crap" and "useless" and that "they should go back and learn how to do it properly" etc.

I will agree, that this forum is one of, if not THE best forum I've ever been on. Its kind and polite for the most part, but because it is the internet, there is allways that element of unfriendlyness, and people bitching at each other.

What I am asking myself, and asking YOU by posting this thread, is WHY should we have to accept the fact that because its the internet behaviour like that is "expected"?

[theavonlady 2]

<span style='font-size:19pt;line-height:100%'>I am NOT trying to stop ALL critisim of an addon, as I've said before, we WELCOME it, IF it is constructive.

What I AM trying to get rid of (and encourage others to get rid of) is the un-neccessary bad-attitude and the obscene language that often goes along with bug reports.</span>

/avon rips hearing aid out

Medicus, two suggestions on your new icon:

1. Could you lighten the shadowing around the text a little to improve readability?

2. What's with the French flag in the background of the THANK YOU image?

[benu 1]

As for your fears as to not being able to "do" anything about the flamers, there is plenty we CAN do about it. Just read back to Bobby's posts (about the monkeys, all be it not as savagely as that) Surely when the vast majority of people post/pm/email people saying "you're not big, you're not clever, and its not welcome here" would have an effect?

Quote[/b] ]I can't answer that one, but i can tell that you won't change the whole of humanity in the next few days.

Ok, I appreciate that I won't be able to have any affect, but what about US? Like I just said, surely an overwhelming majority will have an effect on the flamers?

That might be possible although i do not really know how you think this should work. Maybe an ignore list would be best, as i don't answering trolls will lead to anything, even if many did that.

My view is roughly like this: When i am writing in a thread about bas addons i have no problems telling you (=bas) what i like or dislike about them, but i would have a problem "moderating" other people writing there. IMHO a bas thread kind of "belongs" bas and the forum moderators, ie bas and this forums moderators are the hosts of the thread and everyone else is "guest". So i as a "guest" would not tell other guests what they are allowed to do in "your" thread. And i am not the type to try and speak on someone others (ie your) behalf. Although i guess there are enough people that do not have a problem with this

But i guess i forestall too much here until you said what your solution to this problem might be.

Quote[/b] ]As a final point, I would like to point out, that the game is only part of it. The community is just as important as the game (in this day and age, with online MP being more and more popular) Just THINK how many more people would be attracted to the game because it has a reputation to have THE best and kindest community in the world. I read the "forums" pages in PC Gamer every month, and every month its the same old stories of people getting flamaed into the ground. If OFP appeared in there because the community was helpful, and contained few, if not no flamers, then popularity of the online play would sky rocket.

I wouldn't play a shitty game just because the community is nice. Although i would quit a good game because of a shitty community. Let's hope not everyone thinks like me

OTOH i really like what i see in the ofp community. I really think this is one of the best gaming communities i have seen. But i am not in your position, ie putting out addons which draw the highest expectations and the most flames and would maybe see it your way too if i were. If someone misbehaves on my server i ban him. I guess i got an easier job than you...

[MEDICUS 0]

1. Could you lighten the shadowing around the text a little to improve readability?

Sure.

Quote[/b] ]2. What's with the French flag in the background of the THANK YOU image?

Any suggestions? (I just took the original one)

Mfg MEDICUS

[Ironsight 1]

I understand what you mean Deadmeat but you don't see bad attitude only on the internet but in the whole world, a lot of parents don't teach kids manners anymore because you get conflicts with your kids. The next thing is that kids get bad attitude and they express it on the internet in for example the forums.

I think that's the whole problem

[dm 9]

That might be possible although i do not really know how you think this should work. Maybe an ignore list would be best, as i don't answering trolls will lead to anything, even if many did that.

As we've been discussing for the last couple of hours on IRC and as I have just posted, simply ignoring the problem won't make it go away. (I appreciate that it MIGHT in the future, but what happens when they grow up? They take the "its ok to flame/bitch" point of view with them)

As for your point on "guests" and "owners" of threads, thats a totally valid point of view, and I respect that. But I'll quote Rom on this:

Quote[/b] ][rom`]: if only 2 ppl just post that it's inappropriate if someone posts in a bashing way then I bet it will make a difference

[rom`]: and if those ppl are respectable then those kids get a good example

[rom`]: they need to get the impression that it's not cool to bash someone

[rom`]: then they will stop

[rom`]: if not, they will continue, even if this means just bashing each other

This also stands true for Ironsights' view on "poor parenting"

If their parents won't teach them that flameing/bitching is bad manners, then why can't we? Just because its not our direct responsibility, does not mean that we cant take it upon ourselves to try and make our little existance that bit happier? surely?

OTOH i really like what i see in the ofp community. I really think this is one of the best gaming communities i have seen. But i am not in your position, ie putting out addons which draw the highest expectations and the most flames and would maybe see it your way too if i were. If someone misbehaves on my server i ban him. I guess i got an easier job than you...

Even my "simple" no-frills Policie addon got some flak. Even after I had said that "this is how it is, this is how it stays" people still said "the siren soud is shit, i think you should change it" Thats what really got to me, was th fact that they still expressed their opinion (rudely) even after I had given my final "verdict" on the matter. Like I and others have said, it all boils down to respect...

[Ironsight 1]

This also stands true for Ironsights' view on "poor parenting"

If their parents won't teach them that flameing/bitching is bad manners, then why can't we? Just because its not our direct responsibility, does not mean that we cant take it upon ourselves to try and make our little existance that bit happier? surely?

It isn't only bad manners, but they just don't respect other people but themselves

Maybe before we have a badger that stands for our stand of view, we can use Deadmeat's sentence of TREAT OTHERS HOW YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE TREATED YOURSELF in our signature (you won't mind he Deadmeat )

[dm 9]

Here's something I knocked up after havig a discussion with WhisTaff about the whole issue:

It's a start, it's simple yet to the point, and can be used whenever you would "normally" just flame them back.

[Ironsight 1]

Here's something I knocked up after havig a discussion with WhisTaff about the whole issue:

It's a start, it's simple yet to the point, and can be used whenever you would "normally" just flame them back.

Nice logo better than my idea that I just modified in my post

[joltan 0]

I don't think it is your right to stop someone expressing their opinion (be it good or bad) about your stuff, just because you have declared the discussion to be over.

If you won't change stuff anymore, then why read the old threads about it? Of course people will continue discussing your stuff, and of course they will bring forth critical opinions if they think it's warranted. The way they express them may be adequate or not - but you have to accept that it's their opinion. Using 'shit sound' and other words to describe your work may not be nice, but unfortunately on the net many youngsters (and some old ones, too) seem to have the impression that just because they don't risk being slapped by their monitor they can say anything. As it has been said before: you won't change that.

In general the netiquette as I read it about 15 years ago is still as valid as it was then: Don't offend others, don't be easily offended by others.

Take the critique ('some people don't like the siren sound') and if you think his way of expressing it was insulting, use the means our board and it's benevolent tyranny of moderators provide: complain to a mod. You can't please everyone, even with 'uncontroversial stuff'.

[Ironsight 1]

Sorry Joltan but there is a difference between criticising and pissing and whining

[dm 9]

Thats not the point of it Joltan. Like I've posted over and over (really big the last time) the idea is NOT to quash everyones thoughts on the subject, just to persuade them to put them across in a much more polite manner.

Right now I could be swearing at you (I am in my head ) for completely missing the point of the discussion, but I choose not to because it would only inflame things further. The idea is not to prevent people commenting on the addons, but to stop them making personal attacks at the authors, or just generally being rude about it. Theres no need, and "just" because it is the internet does not condone it.

[whisperFFW06 0]

The "flaming is not cool" stamp is not made to stop someone expressing opinion.

It is just an addonmaker answer to some1 flaming no-end his work, saying :

- I hear ya

- I don't see your point, you are flaming and don't bring anything to discussion

- So, I can't answer

- Come back with clear argument, you'll have your answer

It's just another way of ignoring a flamer, and answering, at the same time

[dm 9]

The "flaming is not cool" stamp is not made to stop someone expressing opinion.

Indeed, it is primarily "designed" (oohh.. all of about 20 seconds) to prevent (or at least try to prevent) people from flaming.

Like Rom's quote, as soon as they realise that its not "cool" to flame, they will stop flameing. Afterall, in my experience, thats all people flame for, is to look "cool" infront of everyone else.

[theavonlady 2]

The "flaming is not cool" stamp is not made to stop someone expressing opinion.

Indeed, it is primarily "designed" (oohh.. all of about 20 seconds) to prevent (or at least try to prevent) people from flaming.

It's antagonistic and reflects the grumpiness of the person displaying it. *cough*

If anything, it will have the opposite effect of what's intended.

[dm 9]

It's antagonistic and reflects the grumpiness of the person displaying it. *cough*

If anything, it will have the opposite effect of what's intended.

Do you have a better idea that we could use in this "conquest against flaming"?

[theavonlady 2]

It's antagonistic and reflects the grumpiness of the person displaying it. *cough*

If anything, it will have the opposite effect of what's intended.

Do you have a better idea that we could use in this "conquest against flaming"?

Forum rules, moderators and ignoring flamers and whiners without the Broadway lights - as in "please don't feed the trolls".

[dm 9]

ignoring flamers and whiners

Did you not read the last page AT all??

[joltan 0]

Thats not the point of it Joltan. Like I've posted over and over (really big the last time) the idea is NOT to quash everyones thoughts on the subject, just to persuade them to put them across in a much more polite manner.

Right now I could be swearing at you (I am in my head ) for completely missing the point of the discussion, but I choose not to because it would only inflame things further. The idea is not to prevent people commenting on the addons, but to stop them making personal attacks at the authors, or just generally being rude about it. Theres no need, and "just" because it is the internet does not condone it.

The post was mainly directed at one post in this thread by you. And I think it definitely is on the point:

Quote[/b] ]Even my "simple" no-frills Policie addon got some flak. Even after I had said that "this is how it is, this is how it stays" people still said "the siren soud is shit, i think you should change it" Thats what really got to me, was th fact that they still expressed their opinion (rudely) even after I had given my final "verdict" on the matter. Like I and others have said, it all boils down to respect...

Sorry, but the "...th fact that they still expressed their opinion (rudely) even after I had given my final "verdict" on the matter..."-part mainly triggered my answer to you.

This is where a fine but very sensitive line is crossed.

I don't disagree with you in general (some people reallly act like $/&%$les when 'critizising' addons). But I think this is just a case for the moderators, as any other insults or flames. Your specific comment above on the other hand borders on implementing censorship - which I'm a bit allergic to.

[theavonlady 2]

ignoring flamers and whiners

Did you not read the last page AT all??

Yep.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do you have a better idea that we could use in this "conquest against flaming"?

Don't make all these banners, they aren't going to stop flamers. If anything, it'll tell them that we're paying attention to them and their posts.