The Iraq thread 3

[billybob2002 0]

Salman Park? (Anybody have more info on the place)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/salman_pak.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock040703.asp

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/

[denoir 0]

Ah, yes, I remeber that one. They showed an aircraft fueselage claiming that it was for hijacking training. It turned out to be the training site for Iraqi counter-terrorist police special forces. Who would have thought that a thug like Saddam would have a police that..um..prevented crime?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ah, yes, I remeber that one. They showed an aircraft fueselage claiming that it was for hijacking training. It turned out to be the training site for Iraqi counter-terrorist police special forces. Who would have thought that a thug like Saddam would have a police that..um..prevented crime?

Linky, please?

Quote[/b] ]

The Marines shelled then entered Salman Pak — named after a 7th Century Persian convert to Islam who was the prophet Mohammed's barber — after it was discussed by Egyptian and Sudanese fighters caught elsewhere in Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]

Iraq told UN inspectors that Salman Pak was an anti-terror training camp for Iraqi special forces. However, two defectors from Iraqi intelligence stated that they had worked for several years at the secret Iraqi government camp, which had trained Islamic terrorists in rotations of five or six months since 1995. Training activities including simulated hijackings carried out in an airplane fuselage [said to be a Boeing 707] at the camp. The camp is divided into distinct sections. On one side of the camp young, Iraqis who were members of Fedayeen Saddam are trained in espionage, assassination techniques and sabotage. The Islamic militants trained on the other side of the camp, in an area separated by a small lake, trees and barbed wire. The militants reportedly spent time training, usually in groups of five or six, around the fuselage of the airplane. There were rarely more than 40 or 50 Islamic radicals in the camp at one time.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]In iraq I dont see this purpose. Should the people who were imprisoned there be reminded of their what happened to themselves? I doubt that. Flatten them..build hospitals on the same spot and no "in memoriam" museums!

Thats of course your opinion. But it might be worth noting that it wasnt Saddam himself that ran the prisons. Ordinary Iraqis did that. Ordinary Iraqis staffed the prisons, tortured their country men and comitted those crimes. Removing all evidence of that doesnt help future generations.

Further more, I think the comparison to the Nazi death camps were pretty spot on, for two reasons.

1. Many visit these sites because they cant believe it really existed until they see it first hand. Its hard to grasp such evil without somehow experiencing itself.

2. If all traces are removed, then eventually it might be forgotten or even denied. Which would be really bad.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ah, yes, I remeber that one. They showed an aircraft fueselage claiming that it was for hijacking training. It turned out to be the training site for Iraqi counter-terrorist police special forces. Who would have thought that a thug like Saddam would have a police that..um..prevented crime?

Linky, please?

Quote[/b] ]

The Marines shelled then entered Salman Pak — named after a 7th Century Persian convert to Islam who was the prophet Mohammed's barber — after it was discussed by Egyptian and Sudanese fighters caught elsewhere in Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]

Iraq told UN inspectors that Salman Pak was an anti-terror training camp for Iraqi special forces. However, two defectors from Iraqi intelligence stated that they had worked for several years at the secret Iraqi government camp, which had trained Islamic terrorists in rotations of five or six months since 1995. Training activities including simulated hijackings carried out in an airplane fuselage [said to be a Boeing 707] at the camp. The camp is divided into distinct sections. On one side of the camp young, Iraqis who were members of Fedayeen Saddam are trained in espionage, assassination techniques and sabotage. The Islamic militants trained on the other side of the camp, in an area separated by a small lake, trees and barbed wire. The militants reportedly spent time training, usually in groups of five or six, around the fuselage of the airplane. There were rarely more than 40 or 50 Islamic radicals in the camp at one time.

From memory. But you seemed to find one.

Quote[/b] ]Iraq told UN inspectors that Salman Pak was an anti-terror training camp for Iraqi special forces. However, two defectors from Iraqi intelligence stated that they had worked for several years at the secret Iraqi government camp, which had trained Islamic terrorists in rotations of five or six months since 1995.

These wouldn't be the same defectors that said that Saddam had nuclear weapons in his bedroom and was playing golf on Sundays with Osama bin Laden? The whole intelligence bullshit before the Iraq war was based on statements from defectors that told fairy tales. Every country have counter terrorist forces and they need a place to practice. Why should Iraq have been any different? I find it hilarious what a cartoonish picture of the world some people have.

[Longinius 1]

And the same defectors that according to several newspapers today were working for Iran, doing their best to get the US to attack their arch enemy?

[Bernadotte 0]

Or do you believe that a german jew wants to live with a concentration camp in his neighbourhood?

The main point is that I would never take action based on what I believe a German Jew wants.  I would ask them.

The Iraqis who suffered in Abu Ghraib prison do not own it and have no legal right to decide it's fate.  But neither do the Americans.  And if anyone has a moral right to have their opinions heard about what will happen to the prison it is the victims and certainly not the Americans.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]BERLIN — A U.S. Army sergeant who gave an insider's view of Abu Ghraib (search) prison to the media has lost his security clearance and has been disciplined by the military for speaking out, he told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

Sgt. Samuel Provance said that although soldiers he served with in Iraq were treating him as a pariah, he would not change a thing if given a second chance.

I would have given this guy a goddamn medal!

[Badgerboy 0]

Hopefully he can do some 'extended interviews' or similar and make a little money.

[bn880 5]

It is always a good idea to fire whistleblowers.... NOT

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Hopefully he can do some 'extended interviews' or similar and make a little money.

You mean selling the film rights to a producer. Publishing his life story. Creating an own music album. And opening the first military investigation company ... and retire in silicon valley!

[bn880 5]

Hey man, he's no Jessica Lynch... she obviously was better off because of her stunning looks.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Hey man, he's no Jessica Lynch... she obviously was better off because of her stunning looks.    

stunning looks? Now let me teach you something about stunning looks.

This is Jessica Lynch styled up

And this is Mrs. Belucci styled down

Lynch is genetical rubbish as far as her looks are concerned, but she certainly is a good girl. Some people tend to mix up fame with beauty. You see that wife of Beckham may be famous..but she definetly is very ugly too!  

(BN880 I know you meant that "stunning" ironically! )

[walker 0]

Hi all

With the increased threat level in US and UK I would prefer our troops were engaged in hunting down Al Qaida rather than waisting time and effort in fighting a needless war in Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON — The United States has credible intelligence from multiple sources that al-Qaeda is determined to launch an attack in the United States in the coming months that could be linked to events such as an upcoming international economic summit and the summer political conventions, Attorney General John Ashcroft said Wednesday

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-05-25-terror-threat_x.htm

Iraq was never a terrorist haven untill TBA and TBA stired up the hornets nest by destroying their country. Now they have spent a year leaving it to fester and left its borders so full of holes that all kinds terrorist desease can take hold.

For such a betrayal of their nations defence TBA and TBA2 should be on trial for gross negligence and derilliction of duty at the very least.

Worried Walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

Key testimony for the senatorial and congresional hearings on the torture of prisoners in Iraq has been lost or removed from the record

Quote[/b] ]Members of Congress from both parties complained Wednesday that while an expanded report by Taguba was delivered as promised, as many as 2,000 pages considered vital to the investigation were missing.

Congressional sources told NBC News that the missing documents included a written report from Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller that apparently lays out aggressive interrogation tactics for Abu Ghraib. Miller was recently reassigned to Iraq after spending 17 months as commander of operations at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Also missing was key testimony from Col. Thomas Pappas, the commander of military intelligence at Abu Ghraib, the sources said.

Lawrence Di Rita, a spokesman for the Defense Department, characterized the missing documents Wednesday as insignificant, saying the information was “available otherwise.â€

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5032107/

Calling the man in charge of millitary intelligence at Abu Ghraib's testimony insignificant as Lawrence Di Rita has is beyond belief. Does he think congress and the people are thick as two short planks?

Afronted Walker

[Bernadotte 0]

Iraq was never a terrorist haven untill TBA and TBA stired up the hornets nest by destroying their country. Now they have spent a year leaving it to fester and left its borders so full of holes that all kinds terrorist desease can take hold.

For such a betrayal of their nations defence TBA and TBA2 should be on trial for gross negligence and derilliction of duty at the very least.

In a recent BBC interview, Jeremy Greenstock, Britain's former counterpart to Bremmer stated that as soon as the invasion was complete he'd called for sealing the borders.  However, the Americans ignored this request and the British forces only ended up having the safest stretch of border with Kuwait to monitor.

I still suspect that many within the Bush administration are using Iraq as fly paper in the world-wide asymmetrical war on terrorism.  Their real target is Al Qaida and the tormented Iraqi people are simply being used as the bait.

Calling the man in charge of millitary intelligence at Abu Ghraib's testimony insignificant as Lawrence Di Rita has is beyond belief. Does he think congress and the people are thick as two short planks?

Yes.  As you can see in the piece on Daniel Ellsberg that I posted the other day, this has all happened before.

Quote[/b] ] The Pentagon Papers

...the papers showed a deep cynicism towards the public and a disregard for the loss of life and injury suffered by soldiers and civilians.

Perhaps the only thing worse than seeing shit like this happen is seeing it happen all over again and again and again...

[Placebo 28]

From Yahoo news......

Quote[/b] ]

A Muslim boy sits behind South Korean soldiers at the Seoul Mosque, May 27, 2004.  

Members of a South Korean contingent to be sent to Iraq pray during a Muslim prayer meeting at the Seoul Mosque May 27, 2004.

A member of a South Korean contingent to be sent to Iraq reads the Koran before a Muslim prayer meeting at the Seoul Mosque May 27, 2004.

Some 40 soldiers, due to be dispatched to Iraq in the coming months, volunteered to participate in a course designed to teach the religious doctrine of Islam and deepen their understanding of Muslim culture. Thursday marked the final day of the two week long course. REUTERS/Kim Kyung-Hoon

Seems to be such a simple, yet potentially worthwhile idea that I'm surprised no other country has thought of it and put it into practice, AFAIK? Sure it's not going to end the war or whatever but a little understanding goes a long way doesn't it?

[walker 0]

Hi all

Thought you might all like to know that finaly the real culprits of the war on Iraq are being investigated by the FBI.

Quote[/b] ]At a conservative thinktank in downtown Washington, and across the Potomac at the Pentagon, FBI agents have begun paying quiet calls on prominent neoconservatives, who are being interviewed in an investigation of potential espionage, according to intelligence sources. Who gave Ahmed Chalabi classified information about the plans of the US government and military?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1225600,00.html

That the NeoCons were giving out national security information with massive business value is truly dispicable. That they were giving it to a foriegn agent and having the pentagon pay him 30 million dollars to do it is beyond a joke

Have a read interesting to see the NeoCons reaping what they sowed.

Kind Regards Walker

[Tex -USMC- 0]

The latest Newsweek's cover story is a fascinating look at Ahmad Chalabi and what a massive crook he is. Also his close ties to, among others, Wolfowitz, Feith, and Cheney.

[ebud 18]

a reporter with some common sense.

Finally, a reporter I can agree with. I can feel the heat already coming from across the pond. Flame away

[Tex -USMC- 0]

a reporter with some common sense.

Finally, a reporter I can agree with. I can feel the heat already coming from across the pond. Flame away  

Hey, that's great. We're not as bad as Saddam Hussein? That's just great news! What a bitch. Maybe one might remind her that so much of what we do around the world relies on a little thing called "the moral high ground". We're either 'liberating the Iraqi people' or we're 'forcing them to simulate homosexual acts'. You can't do both. Also, fun fact: during Hussein's tenure, Abu Ghraib played host to 5,000 prisoners at any given time. Under US supervision, Abu ghraib holds... 7,000. Freedom kicks ass, wouldn't you say?

[ebud 18]

@ May 27 2004,19:26)]Freedom kicks ass, wouldn't you say?

I'm not going to waste my time arguing when it would not sway anyone at this point. I agree with the article. All of it. I'm sick and tired of every single damn article, post, comment about the war being anti-american, anti-bush, anti-everything, peace-love-sing songs and hold hands and everything will work out. Only a portion of that article talked about the prison.

Bitch? For having the gall to speak her mind? Give me a break. I've talked to hundreds of people of all walks of life since all this came up, and most all of them have this same frame of mind. Call it what you will, ignorance, lack of humanity, nationalistic values gone haywire, etc, but that is the thinking of most people I've met or know who have discussed this.

Take the moral high, everyone should, not everyone can or does. I personally have mixed feelings over it all. I feel horrible for innocents in that prison, innocents caught in crossfires, people losing everything, but feel no remorse for if it means saving an american life. I'm a horrible person in that way. I, like you, want to take the high ground and condemn all things american at this moment, but I cannot. That makes me a bad person, but I cannot think differently as hard as I try.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ May 27 2004,19:26)]Freedom kicks ass, wouldn't you say?

I'm not going to waste my time arguing when it would not sway anyone at this point. I agree with the article. All of it. I'm sick and tired of every single damn article, post, comment about the war being anti-american, anti-bush, anti-everything, peace-love-sing songs and hold hands and everything will work out. Only a portion of that article talked about the prison.

She manages to demonstrate her complete ignorance as to what a damaging effect her views, were they translated to US policy, would have. Having a "Fuckit" attitude is fine if it isn't coupled with a perpetual need to invade other countries.

Quote[/b] ]

Bitch? For having the gall to speak her mind? Give me a break. I've talked to hundreds of people of all walks of life since all this came up, and most all of them have this same frame of mind. Call it what you will, ignorance, lack of humanity, nationalistic values gone haywire, etc, but that is the thinking of most people I've met or know who have discussed this.

Of course not for speaking her mind. For being ignorant, heartless, and completely without empathy or analytical capability, yes.

Quote[/b] ]

Take the moral high, everyone should, not everyone can or does. I personally have mixed feelings over it all. I feel horrible for innocents in that prison, innocents caught in crossfires, people losing everything, but feel no remorse for if it means saving an american life. I'm a horrible person in that way. I, like you, want to take the high ground and condemn all things american at this moment, but I cannot. That makes me a bad person, but I cannot think differently as hard as I try.

It's not about condemning all things American. It's about us, if we truly are the good guys, acting like it. It's about the fact that this wasn't an isolated incident, but in fact part of a larger policy of torture, possibly endorsed by the Secretary of Defense himself. It's about a slippery fucking slope into hypocrisy and a bunch of other stuff that doesn't bear contemplation.

[denoir 0]

Bitch? For having the gall to speak her mind?

For taking an idiotic apoligist position.

It reminds me one of bin Laden's usual rethorics. Basically something like

Quote[/b] ]"we don't really want to kill civilians, but we're at war and we'll have to do what it takes to stop the enemy"

. And that's basically also how AQ supporters justify the WTC attacks:

Quote[/b] ]Sure, killing all those innocent people was awful, but I don't hear anybody crying for the palestinians that are killed every day by American weapons blah blah blah

I don't think it's a big mystery Ebud who you would be supporting had you been an Arab.

Not much unlike Nazi apologism:

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, those concentration camps were a nasty, nasty business - but that's war for you.

I've got news for you Ebud - torturing prisoners is not "business as usual" in a war, and hence the objections. Nobody is blaming the US military for killing insurgents as that is a 'normal' part of war. Torturing helpless prisoners certainly is not. As Tex said, comparing yourself to Saddam is absurd. Just because somebody else did something bad does not give you the right to do the same, even if it is to a lesser extent.

And as for doing it for "saving American lives" is BS, highlighted by the ICRC report that showed that 9 out of 10 of the prisoners were captured at random. They were simply unfortunate that they encountered US soldiers that were in an arrest mood. And the torutre was not limited to prisoners of high importance but they were general and systematic. It was plain and sadistic abuse that had little or nothing to do with real extracting of information.

Quote[/b] ]I personally have mixed feelings over it all. I feel horrible for innocents in that prison, innocents caught in crossfires, people losing everything, but feel no remorse for if it means saving an american life.

Where do you draw the limit? Would you blow the brains out of a civilian to save a US soldier? Two civilians? Women, children? Ten civilians? A million civilians? Where would you draw the line, and how would you know that you are saving US lives by abusing and killing civilians?

Quote[/b] ]I, like you, want to take the high ground and condemn all things american at this moment, but I cannot.

This is actually unworthy of a comment, but here it goes anyway. "Condemn all things American"? LOL. What are you? Five years old? You, like us should be condemning all things that violate basic human rights regardless if they are American, French, Swedish or Angolian.

[Akira 0]

*nevermind*

Was gonna reply to Ebud but I guess plenty have already