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ralphwiggum

The Iraq thread 3

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This means to hell with all oil interests

Other than Haliburton securing the contracts to get the oil running, I haven't seen the US awash in excess petroleum lately.

In fact, OPEC recently lowered production, raised prices and the US was hit and howled about it, just like everyone else.

So maybe we start admitting the truth that US tankers are not lining up in Basra, carting home steep discount crude. It's just not happening.

What needs to be done? As much as all of you despise Bush, you should be rooting for the Iraqi people to overcome the terrorists that are ruining their lives and their possibly only chance at having freedom and a reasonable form of government. And the only way this is going to happen is by gnashing your teeth, swallowing a lot of (justified) "I told you so" pride and supporting the coalition.

From what I've been reading here, it seems that the hate for TBA outweighs the humanitarian concern and support needed by the Iraqis.

What seems most important to so many of you is for the US to lose, with total disregard for what that will translate into for Iraq's millions of people.

If the US leaves, will you all restart your Iraq body counters in your sigs? I doubt it, unless it's to blame the US for leaving.

But you can't have your cake and eat it. If the US broke it and they should fix it, discouraging them is good for your political affiliations but bad for Iraqi and coalition morale and for getting the job done.

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Quote[/b] ]Other than Haliburton securing the contracts to get the oil running, I haven't seen the US awash in excess petroleum lately.

In fact, OPEC recently lowered production, raised prices and the US was hit and howled about it, just like everyone else.

So maybe we start admitting the truth that US tankers are not lining up in Basra, carting home steep discount crude. It's just not happening.

The truth is still that the oil aspect is given to much priority over other issues. Like for example still not guarding radioactive material and power plants, but the oil is flowing...

Quote[/b] ]What needs to be done? As much as all of you despise Bush, you should be rooting for the Iraqi people to overcome the terrorists that are ruining their lives and their possibly only chance at having freedom and a reasonable form of government. And the only way this is going to happen is by gnashing your teeth, swallowing a lot of (justified) "I told you so" pride and supporting the coalition.

No, the Coalition in its current state is not a part of the solution, its a part of the problem.

Quote[/b] ]From what I've been reading here, it seems that the hate for TBA outweighs the humanitarian concern and support needed by the Iraqis.

Far from it. The whole point here is the concern for the Iraqis, and the fact that the coalition is far from prioritizing this.

Quote[/b] ]What seems most important to so many of you is for the US to lose, with total disregard for what that will translate into for Iraq's millions of people.

I disagree. I think most people just want to see the US putting the Iraqi people first for a change. Its not about winning or losing, its about getting the agenda straight.

Quote[/b] ]But you can't have your cake and eat it. If the US broke it and they should fix it, discouraging them is good for your political affiliations but bad for Iraqi and coalition morale and for getting the job done.

Yes, the US did broke it. And yes, they should fix it. And a part of that is getting the UN involved, and trying to get the other major players in. That wont happen until Bush admits his mistakes and hands over to those better suited at rebuilding a nation.

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Yes but what this Marines fail to do is relate the first part to the second.Remember the Vietnam war,what politicians said would happen if they lost the war:Vietnam becoming the greatest enemy of America,the domino effect,communism would prevail etc.

None of this asumptions materialised.Why do people think it`s impossible for US to be wrong again about "Iraq becoming a heaven for terrorists".

Why don't you give us your take on the other possibilities?

Quote[/b] ]What triggers terrorism anyway?In Iraq we can safely say that the war triggered it(there was no terrorism during Saddam`s reign),so what if the American agression towards Iraq ends could it be that terrorism in the country will also stop?

There will be a vacuum. Who's going to fill it?

Quote[/b] ]Who are we to underestimate the Iraqis good willing and their capacity of rulling their own country and Sunnis and Shia`s getting along,should we forget where the roots to all civillisation comes from?

That's very romantic of you to bring up history in such a way but I beleiev a lot of empires have trodded through Babylon and Mesepotamia way back and messed up the roots somewhat.

And just look who's been running the place for the last few decades - Mr. Navuchdnezar The Second himself. Root rot.

Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]So, how can the situation be salvaged?

Can the Arab League take control?I know they have a poor millitary capacity but on the other hand they are arabs,they understand Iraqis,they will be respected,violence would probably cease.Couldn`t they supervise Iraq until the gouverment shapes and the country becomes stable?

Why do I have a feeling the Iraqis loath anything that smells of pan-Arabism.

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Quote[/b] ]So maybe we start admitting the truth that US tankers are not lining up in Basra, carting home steep discount crude. It's just not happening.

Umm...

Iraqi oil exports increasing

Quote[/b] ]Iraq is now ratcheting up its oil production. After several months of the Rumaylah Oil Fields idling along at 100,000 barrels per day, production jumped to 800,000 barrels per day in late July. With limited storage capability, the Rumaylah fields had not produced more oil than the 100,000 barrels used for domestic needs, until the pipeline was opened up for export to tankers arriving at Iraq's terminals. The Rumaylah Oil fields are located south of Baghdad.

Iraq's exports began by selling 7.5 million barrels of oil on June 22 from its storage tanks in Ceyhan, Turkey. Closely following this oil sale, two million barrels of oil were sold to ChevronTexaco on June 28 from Mina Al-Bakr, an oil terminal located in the Persian Gulf.

Next, in July Iraq announced the sale of eight million barrels to be exported though Mina Al-Bakr July 10-31.

Then, unexpectedly, Iraq's State Oil Marketing Organization (SOMO), agreed to sell six million barrels to ChevronTexaco, Petrobras of Brazil, and Switzerland's Vitol. These three companies have agreed to ship two million barrels each by the end of July, raising Iraq's three-week sales in July to 14 million barrels of oil.

On July 26, two supertankers were docked at Mina Al-Bakr terminal waiting for lift of four million barrels of oil. One tanker, the Settlebello, is the last of four tankers commissioned to transport the eight million barrels announced in early July. The second tanker, Front Lord, is the first of three tankers to transport the six million barrel sale announced by SOMO in late July.

"We're witnessing history here with these two tankers," said KBR senior advisor Randy Morey. "It's really great to see two at once. Now, things are beginning to move."

Concurrent with the arrival of tankers, oil production topped 1.3 million barrels with 823,000 barrels from Rumaylah, and 515,000 barrels from the oil fields near Kirkuk in northern Iraq. Looting, sabotage, and pipeline failure had slowed oil exports from these fields in northern Iraq, but beginning in August oil should start flowing in the pipeline to Ceyhan, Turkey, renewing Iraq's exports through this port on the Mediterranean Sea.

The production success of the Iraqi oil industry production is particularly pleasing to Task Force RIO.

So Avon ?

Quote[/b] ]From what I've been reading here, it seems that the hate for TBA outweighs the humanitarian concern and support needed by the Iraqis.

It is the humanitarian concerns that we were always worried about. Can´t you remember that ? Now that the coalition fails so badly to provide basic humanitarian measures it is our critizism that they HAVE to fulfill this role.

Quote[/b] ]What seems most important to so many of you is for the US to lose, with total disregard for what that will translate into for Iraq's millions of people.

That´s plain wrong. Our4 concerns here were always about the Iraqis. They were number 1 here in theis thread since day one. Don´t twist it.

The coaltion failed to achieve most of their goals, by incompetence and wrong method of approach.

Once again: It´s not the first time US soldiers mess up their own reputation and missions with their behaviour and general attitude towards the local people. They obviously have no idea of peace- enforcing/keeping.

You don´t need to be a genius to see that.

They maneuvered themselves and the people of Iraq into this.

That´s the real sad thing. They wasted it on their own.

Quote[/b] ]If the US broke it and they should fix it, discouraging them is good for your political affiliations but bad for Iraqi and coalition morale and for getting the job done.

Wrong. In fact the coaltion troops need someone to slap their hands from tiome to time or do you see a correct approach to Iraqi problems right now ?

Arresting or shooting people does not bring democracy Avon.

If the coaltion troops, especially the US troops don´t try to react on the problems that Iraqi people have in nowadays Iraq like bad water, no electricity , raids, disrespect of religiouse and traditional things, killing of innocent, arresting of innocent who are kept imprisoned for months and the relatives are not even told why they got arrested and where they are the situation will only go worse. The coalition wasted it, big time. They maneuvered themselves into this situation and the locals pay the bill as the coaltion takes an even more violent approach to civillians.

That´s what it is. Or should we stand up ans scream "Hurrah !" every time civillians suffer as a direct result of bad discipline (ROE´s) or weird command ideas ?

rock.gif

We are not guilty of the current situation in Iraq. It´s the war that US started, not us.

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Quote[/b] ]So maybe we start admitting the truth that US tankers are not lining up in Basra, carting home steep discount crude. It's just not happening.

Umm...

Iraqi oil exports increasing

Quote[/b] ]Iraq is now ratcheting up its oil production. After several months of the Rumaylah Oil Fields idling along at 100,000 barrels per day, production jumped to 800,000 barrels per day in late July. With limited storage capability, the Rumaylah fields had not produced more oil than the 100,000 barrels used for domestic needs, until the pipeline was opened up for export to tankers arriving at Iraq's terminals. The Rumaylah Oil fields are located south of Baghdad.

Iraq's exports began by selling 7.5 million barrels of oil on June 22 from its storage tanks in Ceyhan, Turkey. Closely following this oil sale, two million barrels of oil were sold to ChevronTexaco on June 28 from Mina Al-Bakr, an oil terminal located in the Persian Gulf.

Next, in July Iraq announced the sale of eight million barrels to be exported though Mina Al-Bakr July 10-31.

Then, unexpectedly, Iraq's State Oil Marketing Organization (SOMO), agreed to sell six million barrels to ChevronTexaco, Petrobras of Brazil, and Switzerland's Vitol. These three companies have agreed to ship two million barrels each by the end of July, raising Iraq's three-week sales in July to 14 million barrels of oil.

On July 26, two supertankers were docked at Mina Al-Bakr terminal waiting for lift of four million barrels of oil. One tanker, the Settlebello, is the last of four tankers commissioned to transport the eight million barrels announced in early July. The second tanker, Front Lord, is the first of three tankers to transport the six million barrel sale announced by SOMO in late July.

"We're witnessing history here with these two tankers," said KBR senior advisor Randy Morey. "It's really great to see two at once. Now, things are beginning to move."

Concurrent with the arrival of tankers, oil production topped 1.3 million barrels with 823,000 barrels from Rumaylah, and 515,000 barrels from the oil fields near Kirkuk in northern Iraq. Looting, sabotage, and pipeline failure had slowed oil exports from these fields in northern Iraq, but beginning in August oil should start flowing in the pipeline to Ceyhan, Turkey, renewing Iraq's exports through this port on the Mediterranean Sea.

The production success of the Iraqi oil industry production is particularly pleasing to Task Force RIO.

So Avon ?

So it looks like Haliburton and the Iraqis got the job done and oil is flowing.

Or is that bad for the Iraqis, too.

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Gee, everyone here seems to know what the Iraqi people want. Polls pointing differently than what you assume are tossed aside. Do you have anything straight from the mouths of Iraqis to rely on? rock.gif

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This means to hell with all oil interests

What needs to be done? As much as all of you despise Bush, you should be rooting for the Iraqi people to overcome the terrorists that are ruining their lives and their possibly only chance at having freedom and a reasonable form of government. And the only way this is going to happen is by gnashing your teeth, swallowing a lot of (justified) "I told you so" pride and supporting the coalition.

From what I've been reading here, it seems that the hate for TBA outweighs the humanitarian concern and support needed by the Iraqis.

What seems most important to so many of you is for the US to lose, with total disregard for what that will translate into for Iraq's millions of people.

Honnestly, I dont hate TBA, but still emotions are unfortunately part of game and I have a tough time to stay objective.

The emotions that I have to keep under control are against those people who called us "cowards", "with us or against us", "we saved your ass during WWII" the ones talking about "friends of the terorists" or "freedom fries", "coalition of the weasals" and "liberating iraq" and "war on teror". Vietnam veterans suddenly claim they would have won the war if the presidents back then would have been like George Bush. Others say that Muslims by nature are terorists.

It is nothing new that many people with this extremist attitude are to be found amongst military staff so my sympathy for those "war heroes" is very small... but I have to keep my objectivity and discipline tells me not to hope they fail.

TBA is realy not reflecting my tastes but the people who support him "can" be much worse and many of them are just waiting for him to give them a new "prejudice" input with which they can spit at the world while enjoing a patriotism-orgasm!

But objectivity... and thanks god there are many americans that are far more objective than me and help me to stay cool-tempered!

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Quote[/b] ]So it looks like Haliburton and the Iraqis got the job done and oil is flowing.

Or is that bad for the Iraqis, too.

As long as the coalition decides where and when and for what price the oil is sold I´d say yes.

As long as the money goes to a US controlled "fund" that is not transparent for anyone but the TBA and TBA 2 I´d say yes, that´s bad for the Iraqi people.

An easy example:

Iraqi oil is sold.

Money goes to "fund". Noone except TBA and TBA 2 has acess to fund.

Coaltion hands away contracts with the "fund" money.

Coaltion decides what to buy with money and from whome to buy.

Iraqi officials don´t have acess to deciding process or negotiations.

Yes I´d say this is not the way it´s gonna work.

It´s natural that Iraq´s populations feels exploited.

Quote[/b] ]Polls pointing differently than what you assume are tossed aside.

Yes surely they are. They are far from being representative. Furthermore they are not covering Iraq. They are only covering a very small percentage of Iraq´s population and ethnic groups. Polls may be nice for election reasons but they don´t represent the current situation in Iraq. Simple as that.

Quote[/b] ]Do you have anything straight from the mouths of Iraqis to rely on?

Yes I posted a lot of eyewitness texts over the last year while you are talking out of the blue.

Edit:

And because you dropped it so fast here is your quote again

Quote[/b] ]So maybe we start admitting the truth that US tankers are not lining up in Basra, carting home steep discount crude. It's just not happening.

It is happening. Avon is wrong.

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Quote[/b] ]So it looks like Haliburton and the Iraqis got the job done and oil is flowing.

Or is that bad for the Iraqis, too.

As long as the coalition decides where and when and for what price the oil is sold I´d say yes.

Quote[/b] ]Polls pointing differently than what you assume are tossed aside.

Well that's oh so big of you. What do the Iraqis say?

Quote[/b] ]Yes surely they are. They are far from being representative. Furthermore they are not covering Iraq. They are only covering a very small percentage of Iraq´s population and ethnic groups. Polls may be nice for election reasons but they don´t represent the current situation in Iraq. Simple as that.
Quote[/b] ]Do you have anything straight from the mouths of Iraqis to rely on?

Yes I posted a lot of eyewitness texts over the last year while you are talking out of the blue.

Tell that to them. Also to these Iraqis:

Quote[/b] ]The Fall of Aznar's Government Is a Victory for Terror

Iraqi columnist 'Aziz Al-Haj wrote in the liberal online newspaper www.elaph.com: "As an Iraqi, I was saddened by the failure of the party and government of Jose Maria Aznar, who stood with dignity and courage alongside the Iraqi people when he took part in toppling the fascism of Saddam... What hurts is that the socialists hostile to America and the war on the Iraqi Ba'th regime succeeded in misleading some of the Spanish citizens, exploiting the terrible crime as a weapon in the elections against the Aznar government. They claimed that it is the Spanish participation in Iraq that is the reason for the terrorism of the Al-Qa'ida members, who are experts in crime and in mass-murdering civilians. But France, the most sharply opposed to the war in Iraq, has also become the target of attack by Islamist extremists and of their calls for Jihad against it - because it insisted on legislation [against the veil] in its public schools and was accused of war against Islam...

"Zapatero, Aznar's replacement, calls on Bush and Blair to [carry out] self-criticism because of the war in Iraq - while the ones who should be called on to carry out self-criticism for ignoring the suffering of the Iraqi people and for justifying the terrorist crimes in Iraq is [actually] the European Left... The leftist organizations in Germany, the ally of France, collect donations for the self-styled uprising gangs in Iraq - that is, for the criminals who are blowing up the headquarters of the U.N. and the humanitarian organizations, the schools, the factories, and the Iraqi security forces. Even the holy cities of Najaf, Karbala, and Kazimiyya were not spared these barbarous attacks, not to mention the friendly coalition forces that saved Iraq from the most criminal and blood-drenched regime in the history of mankind...

"Do all these Western thinkers care about the emotions of the majority of Iraqis, whose joy at the fall of Saddam the whole world saw? What did France, Russia, Germany, and all the European Left do to support the Iraqi struggle against the tyranny of Saddam and for the sake of toppling it?... How can the European Left maintain positions that match [those] of the most extreme Islamists, Iran, and the propagandists of pan-Arabism among the supporters of the crumbling Ba'th regime? [How can the European Left] maintain positions that in effect serve the gangs of murder and destruction throughout Iraq?

"The war on world terror must unite the nations of the world, the democratic countries, and the international bodies. This bestial cancer is a sudden danger with which humanity and civilization is coping. Any negligence or weakness in facing it encourages the beast of prey to kill more people and spill additional rivers of innocent blood. This is a conflict between progress and light - and darkness."(8)

'We Thank Allah There Is a Superpower Like America'

In a similar vein, Iraqi columnist Abd Al-Khaliq Hussein wrote, also on www.elaph.com: "There is no doubt that the defeat of Jose Maria Aznar's conservative Spanish Partido Popular should be considered a victory for terror. The terrorists doubtless distributed sweets among themselves as they did after the Ashoura murders in Iraq...

"It is known that the Spanish Socialist Party opposed the war on Saddam Hussein and showed indifference to the suffering of the Iraqi people, like the rest of the forces of the Left in the world. This was in order to anger America even if its deeds are for the good of the catastrophe-struck peoples. The Left's position stands in contradiction to its pretensions of defending human rights and oppressed peoples...

"The excuse [of the Left] is that the war against Saddam was not legitimate because the decision was not made in the [u.N.] Security Council... A U.N. resolution is more important to them than annihilation by a hangman gripped by lust for murder and genocide. We thank Allah that there is a superpower like America that took upon itself the mission of saving the peoples, without caring about Security Council resolutions. Otherwise the peoples of the Balkans, Sierra Leone, Iraq, and East Timor would expect annihilation by hangmen gripped by lust for mass murder, such as Milosevic, Suharto, Saddam Hussein, and other hangmen...

"These declarations [by the European Left] emanate from the fact that they do not sense the danger of Islamic terror that threatens the security of the nations, democracy, and civilization in the world. The Spanish Socialist Party victory will encourage the terrorists to continue [to perpetrate] additional criminal operations, and thus to extort the West and its democratic parties so they meet the terrorist demands, until these democratic regimes surrender to the will of the terrorists. This is the toppling of Western democracy. But will this be enough for the Islamists?

"It was already noted in another article that the Al-Qaida organization attacked American institutions before America launched the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, even before George Bush rose to power. The false claim that this wave of terror is the result of the occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq is nothing but a feeble excuse for the continuation of terrorist operations against the Western countries..."(9)

(above excerpts from this MEMRI article)

Quote[/b] ]Edit:

And because you dropped it so fast here is your quote again

Quote[/b] ]So maybe we start admitting the truth that US tankers are not lining up in Basra, carting home steep discount crude. It's just not happening.

It is happening. Avon is wrong.

Why? Because the US also buys Iraqi oil? Facts are that other countries tankers are mentioned in the very same article and that US oil prices continue reflect the ups and downs of OPEC's pricing startegies.

I think Balschoiw's wrong. And I think the Iraqis are seeing income coming into their government. And I think that the Iraqis are glad to see that happening.

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This means to hell with all oil interests

Other than Haliburton securing the contracts to get the oil running, I haven't seen the US awash in excess petroleum lately.

In fact, OPEC recently lowered production, raised prices and the US was hit and howled about it, just like everyone else.

So maybe we start admitting the truth that US tankers are not lining up in Basra, carting home steep discount crude. It's just not happening.

Ummm rock.gif Hello, my name is denoir and I am from planet Earth. Where might you be from?

Have you not noticed that there is a big security problem in Iraq? That contractors are fleeing the country? That the pipelines have been sabotaged on a regular basis? It's not beacuse they don't want the oil, it's because they aren't capable of taking it in the chaotic situation today. There are big gas shortages in Iraq. Go figure.

Quote[/b] ]What needs to be done? As much as all of you despise Bush, you should be rooting for the Iraqi people to overcome the terrorists that are ruining their lives and their possibly only chance at having freedom and a reasonable form of government. And the only way this is going to happen is by gnashing your teeth, swallowing a lot of (justified) "I told you so" pride and supporting the coalition.

But what is the solution? As I said, it's unlikely that UN troops would be seen as anything else but a slight variation of an occupation force (and rightly so as it would legitimize the war). What do you do if you get a general Shiia uprising? Brute force ain't going to cut it unless you are willing to kill a large portion of the Iraqi population.

Somebody suggested Arab peace keepers. While I think in theory it is a good idea, I very much doubt that they are capable of doing it militarily. Besides, unless you involved Iran as well, you'd get problems with the Shiites again.

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Why do I get the feeling that ALI you quoted has some really weird views :

Quote[/b] ]You can say, “Nuke Mecca†or “nuke Fallujah†and you can chose the Spanish government’s attitude and submit to terror, or you can join us (Iraqis and coalition) in fighting dictatorship, terrorism and their-no less evil and damaging- propaganda machine. I call for serious measures upon such channels that provoke hatred and celebrate terror and show it as a heroic action. I say, “‘nuke’ Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabia, the terrorists and all dictators in the world. It’s either us or themâ€. The evil TV channels should be prevented from entering Iraq and spew their poisons into the minds of simple people. They’re more dangerous than the terrorists themselves and no rigid concepts such as ‘freedom of speech’ should stop us here. This is not journalism, its terror propaganda.

Brainwash completed.

Quote[/b] ]As long as the coalition decides where and when and for what price the oil is sold I´d say yes.

Huh ?  rock.gif

Shouldn´t it be the Iraqis to decide ?  rock.gif

Quote[/b] ]'Aziz Al-Haj
is on the paylist of the US. The papers he´s writing for are some of the 7 newspapers currently run by the US in Iraq.

First paper : Al-Muwatin Al-Hur

Second: Al-Kahaf

and the last one he writes for :

Baghdad daily (published by the Iraqi National Reconciliation Movement)

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This means to hell with all oil interests

Other than Haliburton securing the contracts to get the oil running, I haven't seen the US awash in excess petroleum lately.

In fact, OPEC recently lowered production, raised prices and the US was hit and howled about it, just like everyone else.

So maybe we start admitting the truth that US tankers are not lining up in Basra, carting home steep discount crude. It's just not happening.

Ummm  rock.gif Hello, my name is denoir and I am from planet Earth. Where might you be from?

Venus. tounge_o.gif

Quote[/b] ]Have you not noticed that there is a big security problem in Iraq?

Yes I have.

Quote[/b] ]That contractors are fleeing the country?

Yes I have.

Quote[/b] ]That the pipelines have been sabotaged on a regular basis?

Yes I have.

Quote[/b] ]It's not beacuse they don't want the oil, it's because they aren't capable of taking it in the chaotic situation today. There are big gas shortages in Iraq. Go figure.

Are the pipelines being sabotaged that ones that would most affect local refiners and distributors? I don't know. Maybe both.

Does Iraq nevertheless need to find some balance between its local use of oil and bringing in hard foreign currency at the same time? Sounds reasonable.

Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]What needs to be done? As much as all of you despise Bush, you should be rooting for the Iraqi people to overcome the terrorists that are ruining their lives and their possibly only chance at having freedom and a reasonable form of government. And the only way this is going to happen is by gnashing your teeth, swallowing a lot of (justified) "I told you so" pride and supporting the coalition.

But what is the solution? As I said, it's unlikely that UN troops would be seen as anything else but a slight variation of an occupation force (and rightly so as it would legitimize the war). What do you do if you get a general Shiia uprising? Brute force ain't going to cut it unless you are willing to kill a large portion of the Iraqi population.

I don't think the situation is right yet for a UN force. Not until the offensive has gone away, at least.

General Shi'ite uprising. Well, that might indeed be the last straw. The question is whether you think Sistani is asking for that. So far he hasn't. If it does, however, time to say "goodbye"!

Quote[/b] ]Somebody suggested Arab peace keepers. While I think in theory it is a good idea, I very much doubt that they are capable of doing it militarily. Besides, unless you involved Iran as well, you'd get problems with the Shiites again.

I really don't think the Iraqis want the AL to meddle into their affairs at all.

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What needs to be done?

Let the Iraqi people decide who should govern Iraq.

The leaders of the Shia and other influential factions asked the coalition to allow the Iraqi people to vote for their first government.  I believe you call that democracy.  The coalition refused.  Now the coalition accuses those factions of trying to impede democracy.  What a joke.

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What needs to be done?

Let the Iraqi people decide who should govern Iraq.

The leaders of the Shia and other influential factions asked the coalition to allow the Iraqi people to vote for their first government.  I believe you call that democracy.  The coalition refused.  Now the coalition accuses those factions of trying to impede democracy.  What a joke.

The joke is on people who think that the 70% Shiite population were going to treat the 25% Sunnis fairly and democratically after being through the Sunni hell regime of Saddam for decades.

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Well, democracy is about the rule of the majority. Not about fairness. Its sad, but true.

What will you do, give some people 1 vote, others 1,5 votes and the even bigger minorities 7 votes / person?

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Well, democracy is about the rule of the majority. Not about fairness. Its sad, but true.

What will you do, give some people 1 vote, others 1,5 votes and the even bigger minorities 7 votes / person?

I won't do anything. The Iraqis already got together and drafted their plans. Good luck to them!

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What needs to be done?

Let the Iraqi people decide who should govern Iraq.

The leaders of the Shia and other influential factions asked the coalition to allow the Iraqi people to vote for their first government.  I believe you call that democracy.  The coalition refused.  Now the coalition accuses those factions of trying to impede democracy.  What a joke.

The joke is on people who think that the 70% Shiite population were going to treat the 25% Sunnis fairly and democratically after being through the Sunni hell regime of Saddam for decades.

Then what do you think needs to be done, if not democracy?

Btw, Shia leaders have repeatedly stated that they don't blame the Sunnis for what the Ba'athists did.  Where are you getting your impending Sunni/Shiite conflict info from?

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Quote[/b] ]Iraqi people have in nowadays Iraq like bad water, no electricity , raids, disrespect of religiouse and traditional things, killing of innocent, arresting of innocent who are kept imprisoned for months and the relatives are not even told why they got arrested and where they are the situation will only go worse. The coalition wasted it, big time. They maneuvered themselves into this situation and the locals pay the bill as the coaltion takes an even more violent approach to civillians.

I heard reports in some Iraqi towns/cities the electricity increased by 50% more than they got during Saddam times, and villages that never had clean water got clean water (etc., etc.). You must of forgot that those "freedom fighters" are disrepcting religious, traditional things, and killing civilians....

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Quote[/b] ]Brainwash completed.
Quote[/b] ]You can say, “Nuke Mecca†or “nuke Fallujah†and you can chose the Spanish government’s attitude and submit to terror, or you can join us (Iraqis and coalition) in fighting dictatorship, terrorism and their-no less evil and damaging- propaganda machine. I call for serious measures upon such channels that provoke hatred and celebrate terror and show it as a heroic action. I say, “‘nuke’ Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabia, the terrorists and all dictators in the world. It’s either us or themâ€. The evil TV channels should be prevented from entering Iraq and spew their poisons into the minds of simple people. They’re more dangerous than the terrorists themselves and no rigid concepts such as ‘freedom of speech’ should stop us here. This is not journalism, its terror propaganda.

He is stating a fact that Al-Jazerra and other arab media are reporting bullshit. On CNN Headline News there was a report on the fighting Fallujah, and how arab news were reporting fake stories. For example, they (arab media) taped young "freedom fighters" (10 year olds or something) driving a ambulance(carring a AK-47) to help carry the wounded and driving off. When the tapes stopped rolling (except one camera), it showed "the press" yelling to the ambuluence to call it back. They basically taped a fake story that showed young "freedom fighters"  were helping "the cause" by transporting the wounded/dead, and in fact they were not.

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I heard reports in some Iraqi towns/cities the electricity increased by 50% more than they got during Saddam times, and villages that never had clean water got clean water (etc., etc.). You must of forgot that those "freedom fighters" are disrepcting religious, traditional things, and killing civilians....

As for electricity, this blog mentions getting it 12 hours a day.

Question is, what did they get over a year ago.

It also mentions there that last week, some of the Russians that were kidnapped were working to maintain power stations.

More interesting stuff there in this guest blog. Shop around. There are more Iraqis there.

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At least Iraqis have free access to the internet now, including hotmaill and pornography smile_o.gif

computerusers150.jpg

http://www.rnw.nl/realradio/features/html/iraq-internet020725.html

Quote[/b] ]"Now the Iraqis are free to think, free to speak, free to learn. After five years you will come to Baghdad and it will be a different place. We were living in the Middle Ages - we're now trying to get to a new era."

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Interesting comment from this blogger:

Quote[/b] ]By now I have met a good number of Iraqis from all kinds of backgrounds and persuasions.. I can report 4 distinct groups of people..

- Ex Baathists: with a pessimistic view of the future.. "Americans are here to take our oil and the occupation will never end."

- Optimists: It will be soon OK with everything clicking in as soon as the spend on projects starts.

- Don't Care: Had enough of all this misery.. Hand over power to any group in Iraq and end occupation and let us get on with it.

- Can't Tell: Its all very confusing and no one knows what agenda is going down here.. therefore lets wait and see..

I have no idea what proportions of the population believe in these views.

So, how much do the Baathists pay some of you to spread their word? biggrin_o.gif

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Quote[/b] ]He is stating a fact that Al-Jazerra and other arab media are reporting bullshit. On CNN Headline News there was a report on the fighting Fallujah, and how arab news were reporting fake stories. For example, they (arab media) taped young "freedom fighters" (10 year olds or something) driving a ambulance(carring a AK-47) to help carry the wounded and driving off. When the tapes stopped rolling (except one camera), it showed "the press" yelling to the ambuluence to call it back. They basically taped a fake story that showed young "freedom fighters" were helping "the cause" by transporting the wounded/dead, and in fact they were not.

So when the enemy does it, its bullshit. But when your side does it, you think nothing of it? It has been done by both sides, its part of propaganda.

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computerusers150.jpg

http://www.rnw.nl/realradio/features/html/iraq-internet020725.html

Quote[/b] ]"Now the Iraqis are free to think, free to speak, free to learn. After five years you will come to Baghdad and it will be a different place. We were living in the Middle Ages - we're now trying to get to a new era."

They're not gonna get far, with their monitor connected to their printer. crazy_o.gif

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