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ralphwiggum

The Iraq thread 3

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Quote[/b] ]And I think freedom of press comes from the freedom of speech. Doesnt really matter, it boils down to the citizens being allowed to express their opinions freely.

Well, freedom of speech is not absolute!

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No, of course not. But I dont think thats relevant in this case. Since its about state oppressing news, not government secrets or some such.

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All that blabla aside

Sadr aide warns of Najaf clashes

Quote[/b] ]A spokesman for radical Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr says there is little hope for a peaceful end to the stand-off in the Iraqi holy city of Najaf.

Qais el-Ghazali said talks between Mr Sadr's supporters and US forces had brought no agreement.

He said US-led forces were preparing to strike Najaf and that the cleric's supporters would take all measures necessary to protect themselves.

US forces say have so far respected Shia calls not to attack the city.

Quote[/b] ]As the talks continued there were reports of further unrest, this time in the town of Qaim near the Syrian border.

A reporter from the St Louis Post-Dispatch newspaper embedded with coalition forces said US marines have been fighting pitched battles with about 300 gunmen in the town.

According to the journalist, at least five marines were killed and nine wounded in a 14-hour battle in which more than 20 Iraqi fighters were captured.

The US military has not confirmed the report.

Elsewhere, US officials said one soldier died and two others were wounded by an an anti-tank mine near the northern city of Tikrit on Friday.

US closes highways leading to Baghdad

Quote[/b] ]The US-led Coalition Provisional Authority said on Saturday it would close various sections of highways connecting Baghdad from the north, east and south for repairs , dismissing talk it might be linked to fears that guerillas in nearby Fallujah and the south will bring the fight to the capital.

The announcement followed the blowing up of bridges over a main highway from Baghdad to southern Iraq by guerillas, further disrupting the country's battered transport system.

Debris from blasts targeting at least two bridges closed the Baghdad-Hilla road, one of two highways leading to the port city of Basra.

A statement by the CPA said: "Various sections of Highways One and Eight in the Wasit, Babil and Diyala provinces will be closed indefinitely for civilian travel until Iraqi engineers and coalition forces can repair them."

The statement said these highways "have become targets for anti-coalition forces. The highways are damaged and too dangerous for civilian travel".

...

SUPPLY LINES: A traveller who came to Baghdad from Hilla, a town south of the capital, said: "The guerillas are after US supply lines. American convoys are having to drive off the highway and go through rough terrain around the bridges."

Guerillas in central and southern Iraq have severely disrupted the transport system, harmed trade, and restricted supply routes.

Iraq's oil ministry has stopped importing gasoline through Syria, Jordan and the Gulf because of poor security along western and southern highways.

The western highway leading to Syria and Jordan is deemed too dangerous to travel as guerillas fight US forces in and around the city of Fallujah.-Reuters

Loosing control is another word for that.

And finally something from Mr. "We have proof.." Powell:

Quote[/b] ]Washington: Secretary of State Colin Powell warned President George Bush on Iraq saying "You break it, you own it," according to a new book "Plan of Attack" by Bob Woodward, the Watergate fame reporter of The Washington Post. The term used by Powell is come from a warning usually posted in shops selling fragile thing warning that if the customer breaks the product he would have to pay full price.

When Bush informed Powell on January 13, 2003, that he had made up his mind to invade Iraq, Powell asked: "Your are sure? You understand the consequences? You know you are going to be owning this place?" At one point, Powell made a powerful emotional appeal to the president by saying, "You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people. You will own all their hopes, aspirations and problems. You’ll own it all."

Bush asked him: ""Are you with me on this? I want you with me." Powell is quoted as having replied: "I’ll do the best I can. Yes, sir, I will support you. I’m with you, Mr President." Powell supported Bush but he was also the first to concede that the intelligence on Iraq’s ties to al-Qaeda and possession of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) was flawed.

Bush had called to "inform" the secretary of state about plans to attack Iraq. He did not seek Powell’s advice on the issue. The meeting on January 13, 2003, was brief and lasted 12 minutes. Woodward says that during a meeting with CIA Director George Tenet, Bush asked if it could be proven that Iraq had ties with al-Qaeda and also had WMDs. Tenet is said to have jumped from his seat and said "slam dunk". This term is used by prosecutors to indicate that it would be an "open and shut" case.

Haha TBA at it´s best. Only shows how fixed Bush was on the war and the missing opposition he got from his advisors and TBA members.

Nice commentary of a father who´s son is serving in Iraq. It shows the duality pretty much.

Bush team lied to us about Iraq

Quote[/b] ]On April 1, my son arrived in Baghdad. He was activated with his Army reserve unit and will serve for 18 months (12 or more in Iraq). He leaves at home in Hawaii his wife and their three daughters, 12, 7 and 5.

It has been heartwarming to read Denver Post articles about our men and women and the sacrifices they are making and the loved ones they left behind. When people like me point out that these men and women symbolize what America stands for, members of the Bush administration nod their heads in agreement. When we ask why our sons and daughters are bleeding and dying for a war built on fabrications, that same administration accuses me of being un-American and unpatriotic. President Bush needs to understand that those of us who strongly disagree with his war on Iraq also love our flag.

It also distresses me that the Bush administration, for purely political reasons, has denied the families of our dead the right to see the nation honor their lost loved ones via TV coverage. More than 600 flag-draped coffins have returned from Iraq and the press has been denied covering their arrival by the administration.

Our ancestors carried the flag against the British, in the Civil War and when our fathers turned back the empire-builders of World War II. We held the flag in Korea and Vietnam. Mr. President, we love our flag and it should not be used for manipulative and dishonorable purposes.

When I asked my 40-year-old son how he felt about going to Iraq, he responded: "I don't think we should be in Iraq, but I signed a contract and I am obligated to fulfill it."

I was less than half my son's age - I was 17 - when I also signed a contract and joined the Army. One of my duty stations was in Korea not long after the truce was signed. There was a constant threat that the North Koreans would cross the demilitarized zone and attack us. Our infantry division's mission was to hold at all cost. All of us understood what that meant. We were prepared to honor the contract we had signed because there was an implicit understanding that the leaders of our country, especially our president, would not put us in harm's way unless it was absolutely necessary.

A contract puts responsibility on both parties. President Bush has not honored his half of the contract. Unashamedly, he concocted numerous justifications (before and after the war) for putting our military in harm's way without cause. He also has sullied the office of the president. He has no right to do either.

If the unthinkable, which I think about all the time, happens to my son or the sons and daughters of so many others from all over our nation, what do I say to my granddaughters? Do I choke back the tears and the anger and tell the little ones, "He was doing his duty for his country"? Or should I be honest and say the president, vice president and all the rest of that Bush crowd twisted, manipulated and just plain lied to send more than 500 Americans to their deaths in Iraq? Both statements speak the truth. To my granddaughters, it will not make much difference.

Sums up the problems you get when you have family members in war and are cheated by your own government. I don´t think this is a one-man opinion only. I guess a lot of families of soldiers in Iraq experience these things right now.

And the TBA soldiers in Iraq are not that motivated anymore as we can see with the recent events.

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Quote[/b] ]If the unthinkable, which I think about all the time, happens to my son or the sons and daughters of so many others from all over our nation, what do I say to my granddaughters? Do I choke back the tears and the anger and tell the little ones, "He was doing his duty for his country"? Or should I be honest and say the president, vice president and all the rest of that Bush crowd twisted, manipulated and just plain lied to send more than 500 Americans to their deaths in Iraq? Both statements speak the truth.

This is exactly the question I wanted to ask NavyEEL last week when he posted this:

...

Who are the ones currently being attacked in Iraq?  Oh yeah that's right, we are--in fact, that's how my friend's brother got killed on Monday.

...

Has the funeral happened yet? If so, did you attend? Which way have your friend's family chosen to look at their tragedy?

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I knew Socialists cannot be trusted. unclesam.gif

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....in_iraq

Quote[/b] ]MADRID, Spain - Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said Sunday he had ordered Spanish troops pulled out of the U.S.-led occupation force in Iraq (news - web sites) as soon as possible, fulfilling a campaign pledge and acting to salve his uneasy nation.

Zapatero, who swept to victory in elections three days after 191 people were killed in terrorist commuter-train bombings in Madrid last month, said he acted after deciding the United Nations (news - web sites) was unprepared to take over the occupation of Iraq — his condition for keeping Spanish troops in the country.

In the announcement, surprising for its timing, Zapatero said he had ordered his defense minister to "do what is necessary for the Spanish troops stationed in Iraq to return home in the shortest time possible."

Zapatero spoke just hours after the new Socialist government was sworn in. His party won March 14 general elections and had pledged to bring Spain's 1,300 troops home unless the United Nations took political and military control.

"With the information we have, and which we have gathered over the past few weeks, it is not foreseeable that the United Nations will adopt a resolution" that satisfies Spain's terms, Zapatero said.

I thought he said they would pull out in June? US govt. is probably pissed at Jo Zap for doing this early and at this time. He is making it seem the terrorists have won in Spain by pulling out this earlier than expected. sad_o.gif At least he does not have a coalition government.

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Spain is now pulling out its 1300 troops rock.gif

What kind of message does this send? If you launch a terrorist attack against us we will withdraw? I cant help but feel Spain has betrayed the other countries in Iraq to terrorist attacks by sending out such a message.

Thats just my 2 cents on this news.

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Balschoiw,

I see you are starting to calling the rebels/guerrillas/ insurgents/kidnappers..."freedom fighters". Whats up with that? I guess the coalition forces are the evil force that wants to kill only civilians and destroy mosques, right? mad_o.gif

Quote[/b] ]I have no international source for this one but it looks like Freedom fighters have ambushed the town of El Kaim at the syrian border successfully. US forces have retreated from the town after heavy fighting. No details yet.

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I heard that little conflict resulted in 4 dead americans and 25 dead Iraqis, before the attackers retreated.

Didnt think the US pulled out

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Quote[/b] ]heh ... at last ...

heh....you suck... biggrin_o.gif  biggrin_o.gif  biggrin_o.gif  j/k

Seriously, what are you trying to saying....

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Quote[/b] ]Balschoiw,

I see you are starting to calling the rebels/guerrillas/ insurgents/kidnappers..."freedom fighters". Whats up with that? I guess the coalition forces are the evil force that wants to kill only civilians and destroy mosques, right?

Press calls them that way, they call themselves that way and they are fighting to get rid of the occupation troops, so yes they are freedom fighters in their term of definition.

Keep your little fist in your pocket wink_o.gif

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Spain is now pulling out its 1300 troops rock.gif

What kind of message does this send? If you launch a terrorist attack against us we will withdraw? I cant help but feel Spain has betrayed the other countries in Iraq to terrorist attacks by sending out such a message.

The conservative PM betrayed his people by participating in an unpopular war, cant say that nobody saw this coming.

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Quote[/b] ]Press calls them that way, they call themselves that way and they are fighting to get rid of the occupation troops, so yes they are freedom fighters in their term of definition.

The coalition troops would like to leave but those "freedom fighters" are preventing that. Those "freedom fighters" are preventing the coalition from completing reconstruction of Iraq and are preventing security (and safety) in that country. Mainstream press/media (CNN, FOX, MSNBC, and ect.) in the US do not call them "freedom fighters" but rebels;guerrillas; insurgents; and kidnappers.

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Quote[/b] ]The conservative PM betrayed his people by participating in an unpopular war, cant say that nobody saw this coming.

Nobody (from the reactions) did not believe that he will pull out this early. That he pull out the Spanish troops in June not April.

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Update on the Kosovo "incident" (off-topic)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21486-2004Apr18.html

Quote[/b] ]

KOSOVSKA MITROVICA, Serbia-Montenegro (AP) -- A U.S. officer was in serious condition Sunday, a day after a Jordanian policeman shot into a group of U.N. police officers in a prison compound in Kosovo. Two Americans and the Jordanian assailant were killed and 10 U.S. officers were wounded in the gunbattle.

Quote[/b] ]

The officer was among a total of 11 injured -- the Americans and one Austrian -- when 21 correctional officers from United States, two Turks and the Austrian came under fire as they were leaving the detention center Saturday, said Neeraj Singh, a U.N. spokesman.

Quote[/b] ]

At least one member of a group of Jordanians shot at the officers, who fired back. A 10-minute gunbattle erupted.

Quote[/b] ]

"As far as we know, there was no communication between the officer who fired and the group of victims," Singh said.

sad_o.gif  sad_o.gif  sad_o.gif

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Quote[/b] ]Those "freedom fighters" are preventing the coalition from completing reconstruction of Iraq and are preventing security (and safety) in that country.

So why didn´t the coalition troops start to rebuild Iraq, rebuild infrastructure BEFORE the shit hit the fan.

Coalition did not enough to establish security , guarantee basic services like water, electricity, etc etc.

Do you think people fight the coaltion because they did such an excellent job ?

Did it ever come to your mind that people fight the coaltion because they did nothing for Iraq´s people at all ?

Why do you think there is such a countrywide support for freedom fighters ?

Because the people of Iraq are so happy with what the coaltion has achieved so far ?

What has the coalition achieved ?

Quote[/b] ]Mainstream press/media (CNN, FOX, MSNBC, and ect.) in the US do not call them "freedom fighters" but rebels;guerrillas; insurgents; and kidnappers.

US media is not the only media on this planet. You can leave it up to me how I call them. I don´t need your assistance here.

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Quote[/b] ]The coalition troops would like to leave but those "freedom fighters" are preventing that. Those "freedom fighters" are preventing the coalition from completing reconstruction of Iraq and are preventing security (and safety) in that country. Mainstream press/media (CNN, FOX, MSNBC, and ect.) in the US do not call them "freedom fighters" but rebels;guerrillas; insurgents; and kidnappers.

I hope you are aware of the fact that the words used to describe the enemy are a part of all propaganda. You will never describe your enemy in a good light, you want them to appear as evil and bad as possible. Thats why the coalition wont call them freedom fighters. But it really doesnt matter, its just words.

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Quote[/b] ]heh ... at last ...

heh....you suck... biggrin_o.gifbiggrin_o.gifbiggrin_o.gif j/k

Seriously, what are you trying to saying....

Aznar went against the will of his people, Zapatero then put things back in order following his electors' will.

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Quote[/b] ]The conservative PM betrayed his people by participating in an unpopular war, cant say that nobody saw this coming.

Nobody (from the reactions) did not believe that he will pull out this early. That he pull out the Spanish troops in June not April.

What does it change ? really ? it's just one less member in the coallition ... nothing a bunch of National Guards can't replace. It's your war after all.

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So why didn´t the coalition troops start to rebuild Iraq, rebuild infrastructure BEFORE the shit hit the fan.

Coalition did not enough to establish security , guarantee basic services like water, electricity, etc etc.

Do you think people fight the coaltion because they did such an excellent job ?

Did it ever come to your mind that people fight the coaltion because they did nothing for Iraq´s people at all ?

Why do you think there is such a countrywide support for freedom fighters ?

Because the people of Iraq are so happy with what the coaltion has achieved so far ?

What has the coalition achieved ?

they were rebuilding the infrastructure before SHTF. as you know the insurgents attacked water lines in Baghdad and etc during the reconstruction too.

do you seriously think that a few disgruntled individuals represent the whole society? I guess those 'Iraqis' who are now working as Police and new Military are not exactly Iraqis? tounge_o.gif

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Spain is now pulling out its 1300 troops rock.gif

What kind of message does this send? If you launch a terrorist attack against us we will withdraw? I cant help but feel Spain has betrayed the other countries in Iraq to terrorist attacks by sending out such a message.

IIRC, the poles in Spain indicated that most citizens did not want Spain to engage in war even before it started. On top of that the war's justification was shown to be false, and Aznar's gov't did not provide straight face after train bombing. so people, who had little or no support for the Aznar's decision to goto war, now really had no reason to support him and kicked him out.

Spain can pull its troops out, since it is their troop. This is so far US's war, and we are stuck with it. However, my suggestion to Spainish gov't would be that they add a bit more troops to current troops in Afghanistan. so that this would show international community that they are participating in war against terrorism, but at the same time give a finger to US.

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Hi all

Coalition Casualties have reached 100 allready this month.  sad_o.gif  Civilian casualties may be in the thousands this month.  sad_o.gif  sad_o.gif

The proposed 20,000 extra troops are just not enough to do the job. It needs an additional 400,000

The plain fact is that the coalition has lost control of vast swaithes of Iraq witeness the fact that no foriegner is safe there.

There is no security. Something the Iraqis were shouting about within days of the "end of hostilities"

The Coalition has failed to maintain Law and Order and is thus breaking the Laws of War as occupier of Iraq.

I blame this fair and square on TBA and TBA2 who never had a plan for what to do after they had captured Iraq.

With every day that passes this looks more and more like the mire that was Vietnam.

Depressed and Saddened Walker

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However, my suggestion to Spainish gov't would be that they add a bit more troops to current troops in Afghanistan. so that this would show international community that they are participating in war against terrorism, but at the same time give a finger to US.

Hi RalphWiggum

I agree with this point but the finger has to go to the US un-President George Bush Jnr. and the rest of his cronies in TBA and TBA2 not the US citizens and soldiers who have been badly lead and basicley lied to by TBA.

Kind Regards Walker

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my suggestion to Spainish gov't would be that they add a bit more troops to current troops in Afghanistan.

and IIRC that is exactly what the spanish gov. wants to do. At least it was in the news here for some time.

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Quote[/b] ]US media is not the only media on this planet. You can leave it up to me how I call them. I don´t need your assistance here

You use the term "the press" and I posted US mainstream (apart of "the press") press does not call them "freedom fighter". Were you talking about the media from Middle East and/or Europe?  rock.gif

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