Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ralphwiggum

The Iraq thread 3

Recommended Posts

Quote[/b] ]Last week 2 german men got killed in Iraq. They worked for the german embassy. Noone in germany was happy that they died, but everyone is aware that Iraq is a warzone and it´s not to uncommon to get killed in a warzone.

It looks like you judge reality with 2 different measures.

On one you have some US "civillians" who got killed while driving through a pocket of resistance  and on the other you have at least 600 civillians killed in that town alone. Kids, women and elderlies. That doesn´t seem to matter much to you.

I though more than 300 civilians (from what your original post about the stats) were killed? rock.gif

Quote[/b] ]This calculation bases on the assumption that ALL others who got killed were fighters. That´s not fact as 299 left are just males of a certain age. This does not imply that all of them were fighters.

So, you assume that only civilians were killed because you are now posting 600 civilians were killed. rock.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But whatever, the coalition has to trust Iraqis in the end, so might as well start now.

If thats not possible either because the mass of Iraqis arent trustworthy from a Coalition perspective or because the Coalition (US especially) isnt willing to take the risk then the whole thing will have to be called off (oops sorry, we appear to have invaded your country, how did that happen.. well no time to chat, byee now!).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But whatever, the coalition has to trust Iraqis in the end, so might as well start now.

As a matter of fact, it did start now and I posted about it 2 days ago:

US military turns to Saddam's ex-officers

Quote[/b] ]...

"We've got to get more senior Iraqis involved, former military types involved in the security forces," Gen Abizaid said. "In the next couple of days, you'll see a large number of senior officers being appointed to key positions in the ministry of defence and in Iraqi joint staff and in Iraqi field commands. And General [Ricardo] Sanchez [commander of coalition forces in Iraq] and I are very much involved in the vetting and placing of these officers and I can tell you the competition for these positions have been fierce."

As part of the de-Ba'athification process put in place by the US-led coalition after the overthrow of Mr Hussein's government, Paul Bremer, the chief civil administrator in Iraq, insisted on disbanding the Iraqi army despite suggestions from some in the US military that experienced officers would be needed to staff the new army.

Michael O'Hanlon, military analyst at the Brookings Institution, said on Monday: "This really is a reversal. The bottom line is that he [bremer] eliminated all previous military. The question was what piece do you bring back and how. He had the opportunity to do just this."

...

Just what the doctor ordered, I suppose.  These guys have decades of experience oppressing Iraqi radicals.   rock.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]Show me numbers and credible sources.

Otherwise it´s only TBA hearsay.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3527-2004Apr11.html

Quote[/b] ]Marines Find Evidence of Suicide Squads

Deserted Shed in Fallujah Suggests Careful Planning, Foreign Presence

By Pamela Constable

Washington Post Foreign Service

Monday, April 12, 2004; Page A01

FALLUJAH, Iraq, April 11 -- When the U.S. troops entered the abandoned factory shed Sunday, they found a hastily abandoned campsite full of jumbled clothing and bedrolls, scattered sneakers and gym bags, broken eggs and dirty cooking pots.

Quote[/b] ]The evidence -- Islamic books, pamphlets, tapes and farewell letters in Arabic -- suggested that some of the men were not Iraqis from the area, but foreign Sunni Muslims who had traveled to this urban Sunni stronghold to fight and die in a holy war, both against the U.S. forces and the country's Shiite Muslim majority.

"I say goodbye with tears in my eyes and heart, and I ask God for victory," read one letter, which suggested the writer's parents had tried to stop him from leaving home. "Father, don't blame yourself. I am happy to be here," it said. "Mother, don't be weak. Raise your children to be martyrs for the cause."

Quote[/b] ]

But the unearthing of the Islamic documents among the bomb-making materials Sunday, while two foreign journalists and an Arabic interpreter were present, suggested that at least some of the suicide squad members were not from Iraq.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97074,00.html

Quote[/b] ]FALLUJAH, Iraq — About 80 foreign fighters who were captured in the northeast region of Iraq within the past 24 hours were in the U.S.-led coalition's custody Thursday and being interrogated about why they were in Iraq, senior defense officials told Fox News.
Quote[/b] ]Officials said the foreign fighters come from countries such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan and Syria. They were found with nearly 1 million Iraqi Dinars, and some $75,000 in U.S. currency. Initial reports indicate they were relatively lightly armed — mostly with machine guns, shot guns and sniper rifles.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5097-2004Apr12.html

Quote[/b] ]Military commanders, though, say several foreign fighters have entered Fallujah and infiltrated the ranks of the insurgents. In the past week, at least five - including a Syrian, and Egyptian and a Sudanese - have been detained during the siege of the city.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1072443,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

The suspect was caught by police guarding a station in an eastern suburb of Baghdad. Officers said they stopped a man in a Toyota Landcruiser at 10.15 yesterday morning after they became suspicious of his driving.

The man then got out of the car and tried to hurl a grenade at the station, but he was shot and wounded by guards.

Gen Hertling said the car was found to be stuffed with TNT and mortar rounds.

"He's a foreign fighter. He had a Syrian passport and the policemen say that, as he was shot and fell, he said he was Syrian," the general said.

Quote[/b] ] But the active presence of foreign insurgents has also been acknowledged. In the wake of Sunday's rocket attack on the Rashid hotel in Baghdad, General Martin Dempsey, commander of the 1st Armoured Division, said there was no evidence to suggest "an infusion" of foreign fighters.

Last week a suspected Syrian national was arrested trying to target a US military building in the Baghdad suburb of Ad Doura. Gen Hertling said yesterday that suicide attacks were not typical of former members of Saddam's Ba'ath party. "There are indicators that certainly these attacks have a mode of operation of foreign fighters," he said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3998839/

They are there but the number is unknown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,117045,00.html  

(AP)

Quote[/b] ]

With officials reporting four more Marines killed, the death toll of 87 U.S. troops in April made it the deadliest month since the military set foot in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]

In the south, 2,500 U.S. troops were digging in outside the Shiite holy city of Najaf (search), preparing for a possible assault against radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr (search). An attack on the city would likely outrage Iraq's Shiite majority, a community that — aside from al-Sadr's militia — has so far shunned anti-U.S. violence.

Iraqi clerics and politicians have launched negotiations with al-Sadr, trying to get him to back down sufficiently to avert a U.S. attack. But al-Sadr appeared to take a tough stance, demanding U.S. troops withdraw from all Iraqi cities.

Quote[/b] ]

The fighting has already been difficult. Aside from at least 87 U.S. soldiers, about 880 Iraqis have been killed this month — including more than 600 Iraqis — mostly civilians — in Fallujah, according to the city hospital's director.

Quote[/b] ]

A U.S. Cobra attack helicopter fired rockets and heavy machine guns before dawn at gunmen gathered on the northern edge of Fallujah. Rocket-propelled grenades streamed up toward the helicopter and a second gunship providing support, but none apparently hit their target.

Early Wednesday, an A-130 gunship pounded a row of buildings from which Marines say ambushes have repeatedly been launched in a residential area.

Gunmen repeatedly attacked one house in Fallujah that the Marines were using. At least 12 gunmen were killed in two nights of attacks.

Quote[/b] ]

Marines fought fierce battles Monday and Tuesday with insurgents in Karma, a village outside Fallujah. Some 100 gunmen were killed in battles in palm groves and over canals that were so intense that wounded Marines were sent to rejoin the fight.

Quote[/b] ]

The Marines called a halt to offensive operations Friday to allow negotiations between U.S.-allied Iraqis and Fallujah representatives. Gunmen in the city called a cease-fire Sunday, but Marines have been responding to guerrilla fire — and striking gunmen who appear about to attack.

Quote[/b] ]

Insurgents Wednesday offered the Iraqi equivalent of $7,000 for anyone who kills Mouwafak al-Rubaie, the Iraqi national security adviser, after he called for Fallujah residents to hand over militants to the United States.

Quote[/b] ]

U.S. commanders vowed to kill or capture al-Sadr, though officials suggested they would give negotiations a chance.

"The target is not Najaf. The target is Muqtada al-Sadr and his militia," said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy head of U.S. military operations in Iraq. "We will hunt him down and destroy him. We would prefer it not in Najaf or Karbala. We have very great respect for the shrines, for the Shiites."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]I though more than 300 civilians (from what your original post about the stats) were killed?

Good morning:

Quote[/b] ]Yeah sorry it were "only" 300 dead babies, women and elderlies. If you check the 1250 injured ones you will certainly find out that only a comparably small percentage were fighters.

Doesn´t change the facts though.

Quote[/b] ]So, you assume that only civilians were killed because you are now posting 600 civilians were killed.

If you want to go nitpicking make my day.

I have been clear on that for 5 pages already. I´m not guilty if you don´t read.

What is this going to be ?

Do you want to quote us dead ?

Of course there are foreign soldiers in Iraq. So what ?

Do you think foreign soldiers attacked the coaltion forces in Falluja or elsewhere the last days ?

Did you get that impression ?

I did get the impression that it were Iraqis who did that. And it was accepted on their streets from their citizens.

They don´t feel well under US control. They don´t need foreign fighters or jeeez terrorists to show their opposition. And that´s what it is. Opposition to occupation.

The sympathy for radicals like Al Sadr is only a result of the failures the coaltion made in Iraq.

Do you really think people in Iraq still fight for Saddam ?

They fight for their own role. And they fight for their believe and that is a worrying developement. Remember that nothing has been ugreed upon when it comes to the division of power between all them AND the US. That will be the point of no return.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]Last week 2 german men got killed in Iraq. They worked for the german embassy. Noone in germany was happy that they died, but everyone is aware that Iraq is a warzone and it´s not to uncommon to get killed in a warzone.

It looks like you judge reality with 2 different measures.

On one you have some US "civillians" who got killed while driving through a pocket of resistance  and on the other you have at least 600 civillians killed in that town alone. Kids, women and elderlies. That doesn´t seem to matter much to you.

I though more than 300 civilians (from what your original post about the stats) were killed? rock.gif

Quote[/b] ]This calculation bases on the assumption that ALL others who got killed were fighters. That´s not fact as 299 left are just males of a certain age. This does not imply that all of them were fighters.

So, you assume that only civilians were killed because you are now posting 600 civilians were killed. rock.gif

I just want to mention one thing here that realy anoys me.

Before the actual families were informed the pictures of their husbands/fathers/sons were already published in the press. VERY sick pictures. And I thought our press is more civilised when it comes to issues such as war. But thanks to the BILD newspaper it isnt. If the manager of this newspaper would stand right in front of me right now I would xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx please read the forum rules Albert, if this happens once again I ban you for 24 hours, you get another chance since you only broke the rules verbally; Placebo

This post was modfied by Placebo 2:40 Thursday 15th, April 2004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh great. Now this is what I call nuts:

Quote[/b] ]They put forward three conditions:

Mr Berlusconi should apologise for alleged insults against Islam

All Italian troops based in Iraq should be withdrawn

All clerics held by Italian forces should be released.

I guess we will not see those Italian guys again. Those are weirdos. I mean seriously those are fanatics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yup, these people are sick all right, the article said what they did to him was too gruesome not even Al-Jazeera could air it... gee how noble of them mad_o.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually a shot to the back of the neck would be a rather humane execution if by the back of the neck they mean the base of the skull... if they mean literally the back of the neck, then it would not be so humane as it would have just paralyzed him and he probably bled to death or chocked on his own blood...not a good way to die.

But a shot to the base of the skull is about as humane an execution as you can get....not that I think any execution is humane, but it certainly beats the traditional Middle Eastern method of executing prisoners which is done by slashing the throat. That is a horrific way to die because its a slow and incredibly painful death gargling on one's own blood and feeling the knife slicing through your throat and your blood spurting out of your juglar veins as darkness slowly closes in on you as the life drains out of your body.

Also keep in mind that under the rules of the Geneva convention, these "security guards" could be classified as mercenaries. Mercenaries are NOT protected by the Geneva convention...of coarse not that these radical militant groups give a rats ass about the Geneva convention. But nevertheless such foreign security guards are not well protected by international law.

If you're going to do that line of work, it better pay damn well.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One of the Italian hostages have been executed sad_o.gif

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3627377.stm

Damn. I was starting to hope that the kidnappings were harmless as most captives have been released without being hurt.

As Miles Teg said, private security guards are a gray zone. I'm fairly sure that they are not covered by Geneva, but on the other hand, neither are the resistance fighters. The Geneva conventions are not at all adapted to this kind of situation. Is there technically still a war going on? Has there been an official surrender from the side of Saddam's government? It's the only party that the US could by the book be at war with. Etc etc. Very difficult to tell.

The Geneva conventions were written with European warfare in mind: nation state against nation state. Official declaration of war. Official surrender. Single chain of command. Consistent uniforms and insignia and so on. What we have here in Iraq is a completely different reality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One of the Italian hostages have been executed sad_o.gif

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3627377.stm

Damn. I was starting to hope that the kidnappings were harmless as most captives have been released without being hurt.

As Miles Teg said, private security guards are a gray zone. I'm fairly sure that they are not covered by Geneva, but on the other hand, neither are the resistance fighters. The Geneva conventions are not at all adapted to this kind of situation. Is there technically still a war going on? Has there been an official surrender from the side of Saddam's government? It's the only party that the US could by the book be at war with. Etc etc. Very difficult to tell.

The Geneva conventions were written with European warfare in mind: nation state against nation state. Official declaration of war. Official surrender. Single chain of command. Consistent uniforms and insignia and so on. What we have here in Iraq is a completely different reality.

i could understand mercs and resistance fighters not being covered under geneva convention, but what about the hostages who where just jornalists and truck drivers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Journalists and truck drivers are civilians, like any other. Civilians are covered by the Geneva convention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One of the Italian hostages have been executed sad_o.gif

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3627377.stm

that's just absurd. what did that man do? crazy_o.gif

Journalists and truck drivers are civilians, like any other. Civilians are covered by the Geneva convention.

no no no, the brave insurgents who protect their homeland would not do such thing as killing an innocent civilian, would they?

You guys are so heartless when it comes to Americans dying.

People were at least as sorry for the victims of the WTC attacks. How short memory some people have...

indeed. It seems like memory of France continuously pissing off US's foreign policy even during Clinto's time is nowhere to be found.

Quote[/b] ]If the women and children are fighting you, then WTF are you doing there? Yes, if they shoot at you, they are legitimate targets. But then you should ask yourself if you should be there when even the women and children have taken up arms against you.

they can choose to stay away from battles, and would only be natural to do so. however, transporting firearms, although not firing is aidding the enemy.

a soldier's order is to follow orders. he/she can object it, but when bullets fly around i think contemplating about philosophical question is a luxury.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]that's just absurd. what did that man do?

He made himself a target. And paid for it.

Quote[/b] ]no no no, the brave insurgents who protect their homeland would not do such thing as killing an innocent civilian, would they?

Of course they would. They will probably do anything to achieve victory, like most people backed into a corner, fighting for their lifes, would.

Quote[/b] ]they can choose to stay away from battles, and would only be natural to do so. however, transporting firearms, although not firing is aidding the enemy.

His point is that if women and children chose NOT to stay away from battle, but to actively fight you, then you are probably on the wrong side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]that's just absurd. what did that man do?

He made himself a target. And paid for it.

Why? Did he flinch or cough as he was bound and gagged sitting on the floor of his cell?

Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]no no no, the brave insurgents who protect their homeland would not do such thing as killing an innocent civilian, would they?

Of course they would. They will probably do anything to achieve victory, like most people backed into a corner, fighting for their lifes, would.

Nice to see you're on the side of cutthroats and savages. Nothing suprising here. Move along.

Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]they can choose to stay away from battles, and would only be natural to do so. however, transporting firearms, although not firing is aidding the enemy.

His point is that if women and children chose NOT to stay away from battle, but to actively fight you, then you are probably on the wrong side.

Really? Who appointed you spokesman for the majority of Iraqis?

Recent polls show the vast majority of Iraqis are better off now than when Saddam was burying them and that they want the coalition troops to deal with the Iraqi terrorist violence.

Maybe it's you whose on the wrong side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]Recent polls

Polls in Iraq ?

Now ?

Hmm, why do think that polls in Iraq are most likely not representative.

What do those "pollers" wear ? 9 inch body armour ?

Polls and Iraq don´t fit at the moment imo.

Did they ask the people in towns under siege ? rock.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]Recent polls

Polls in Iraq ?

Now ?

Hmm, why do think that polls in Iraq are most likely not representative.

What do those "pollers" wear ? 9 inch body armour ?

Polls and Iraq don´t fit at the moment imo.

So all of a sudden the BBC is not a trusted source?

Iraqi Opinion Poll

But, of course, your gut instincts know better what the Iraqis want.

Quote[/b] ]Did they ask the people in towns under siege ? rock.gif

I'm sure not. Did you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]Why? Did he flinch or cough as he was bound and gagged sitting on the floor of his cell?

No, he chose to travel to a warzone in which his nation is considered the enemy. By doing this, he made himself a target. Its not like he wasnt aware there was a war going on and that Italy was considered the enemy by some.

Quote[/b] ]Nice to see you're on the side of cutthroats and savages. Nothing suprising here. Move along.

Where in my statement did I say or indicate I was on their side? I merely pointed out that they will do whatever they can to achieve victory, much like most others in similar positions during the course of history. But, nothing suprising with you trying to put words into other peoples mouths. Move along.

Quote[/b] ]Really? Who appointed you spokesman for the majority of Iraqis?

Again, when have I spoken for Iraqis? I just said that if women and children chose to take up arms against you, something is very, very wrong. And chances are, you are part of the problem.

Quote[/b] ]Maybe it's you whose on the wrong side

Yes, because it could never be you Avon. You could never be wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote[/b] ]DUBAI (Reuters) - Arab television stations aired a new audio tape purportedly from Osama bin Laden on Thursday offering a truce with European states if they stop attacking Muslims, but not with the United States.

"I offer a truce to them (Europe) with a commitment to stop operations against any state which vows to stop attacking Muslims or interfere in their affairs... The announcement of the truce starts with the withdrawal of the last soldier from our land and the door is open for three months from the date of the announcement of this statement," the voice said.

The voice on the tape, broadcast by Dubai-based Al Arabiya channel and then by Qatar-based Al Jazeera station, said there would be no truce with the United States.

"President (George W.) Bush and leaders in his sphere, big media institutions, and the United Nations.. all of them are a fatal danger to the world, and the Zionist lobby is their most dangerous and difficult member, and we insist, God willing, on continuing to fight them," the man said.

The taped message also vowed revenge on Israel and the United States for the death of Hamas leader Ahmed Yassin, killed last month in Gaza.

It was not immediately possible to verify the authenticity of the tape, though the voice sounded like previous tapes thought to be genuine. The CIA has said some previous tapes purportedly from bin Laden were likely to be genuine.

Bin Laden's al Qaeda network is blamed by Washington for the September 11, 2001, attacks on U.S. cities.

The tape said the March 11 train bombings in Madrid that killed 191 people were payment for Spain's actions in Iraq, Afghanistan and "Palestine."

"What happened on September 11 and March 11 are your goods returned to you so that you know security is a necessity for all," the voice on the tape said.

Who does he think he is?? some kind of allie? mad_o.gif Clean your cave, so you leave a good impression when we come

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Of 2,652 Iraqis surveyed, the majority said life has got better since the war"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1....tm

How were these 2,652 people chosen?

Where in Iraq do they live?

Who interviewed them?

How was the interview conducted?

You could easily interview twice as many people, without much effort, and get the opposite result. It just depends on there where, how and who.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Of 2,652 Iraqis surveyed, the majority said life has got better since the war"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1....tm

How were these 2,652 people chosen?

Where in Iraq do they live?

Who interviewed them?

How was the interview conducted?

You could easily interview twice as many people, without much effort, and get the opposite result. It just depends on there where, how and who.

Good so polls are absolutely worthless.

So then, what do you base your assumptions on otherwise? A little birdie told you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×