The Iraq thread 3

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Suprised nobody post this....

Because Iraqi people are special fans of Saudis

Especially shiites.

Well, on NPR, they said that the force would not be made of Iraq's 6 neighbor muslim nations, leaving mostly Asian and African muslim nations to contribute to the force.

[Akira 0]

Zarqawi Captured?

Quote[/b] ]Kuwaiti newspaper: Zarqawi captured on Syrian - Iraq border

30-07-2004,14 :48

Reports in Kuwait on Friday said a man assumed to be Al Qaeda leader in Iraq, Abu Musab Zarqawi has been captured near the Syrian border.

Zarqawi, whose Tawhid and Jihad group has claimed responsibility for numerous attacks in Iraq, was captured during a joint operation by US forces and Iraqi police, Al Siyasah newspaper, quoting informed Iraqi sources, said Friday.

The US and Iraqi investigators are trying to identify the captive and has sent his DNA sample for testing, the unconfirmed report indicated.

Zarqawi is the most wanted suspect in Iraq and has a US bounty of $ 25million on his head. (albawaba.com

[Balschoiw 0]

...and as I don´t want to hang around totally useless tonight:

here is the news !

Voila !

MPs deliver damning verdict on Iraq war and aftermath

Quote[/b] ]By Ben Russell

30 July 2004

Iraq risks becoming a "failed state" which could destabilise the Middle East, a powerful committee of MPs warned yesterday as they delivered a damning verdict on the war on international terrorism.

Members of the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee said Iraq had become a "battleground for al-Qa'ida" as they lambasted the US-led coalition for allowing criminal gangs, Saddam loyalists and Islamic extremists to fill the post-war power vacuum.

They warned: "The alternative to a positive outcome in Iraq may be a failed state and regional instability."

MPs said the risk of terrorism may have been increased by the war to topple Saddam, with al-Qa'ida now known to be active in the former dictatorship. Donald Anderson, the Labour chairman of the committee, said: "It would be difficult to resist the argument that the threat has increased."

Their scathing 70,000-word report warned there were insufficient troops to provide security on the ground in Iraq, and said Britain's credibility in the country was being damaged by the failure to restore basic services to the Iraqi people.

MPs said there had been an "alarming increase" in attacks in the run-up to the handover of sovereignty, and warned that the power vacuum created by the break-up of the Iraqi army and the removal of former Baath party officials from government was "contributing to instability and insecurity".

They said: "The violence in Iraq stems from a number of sources, including members of the former regime, local Islamists, criminal gangs and al-Qa'ida. Iraq has become a battleground for al-Qa'ida with appalling consequences for the Iraqi people.

"We also conclude that the coalition's failure to bring law and order to parts of Iraq created a vacuum into which criminal elements and militias have stepped."

They criticised the international community for failing to contribute troops to bolster the American-led coalition.

The report also warned of the dangers of failing to improve the lot of ordinary Iraqis. It said: 'The provision of basic services in Iraq is not yet satisfactory, and the failure to meet Iraqi expectations, whether realistic or not, risks damaging the credibility of the United Kingdom in Iraq and Iraqi goodwill towards it."

They warned that there was "uncertainty over the degree of sovereignty to be vested in the new Iraqi government", and called on the US-led coalition to make it clear that the new Baghdad administration was sovereign "in reality as well as name".

In a highly critical verdict on the war on international terrorism, MPs also called on Britain to be more vocal about Russian policy towards Chechnya. They said Chechen rebels were linked to terrorist networks affiliated to al-Qa'ida, and warned that the rebel republic "has great importance as a rallying cry of Islamist insurgency throughout the Muslim world".

...

and

NATO nations agree to train Iraq forces

Quote[/b] ]NATO nations agreed Friday to begin training Iraqi forces, a NATO official said. No details of the agreement were immediately available.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said an agreement was reached but did not explain how it resolved a dispute between France and the United States over command and control.

Paris had objected to an American general heading the mission.

Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer was to brief reporters later on the details.

Washington had insisted the commander of the NATO mission be linked to the U.S.-led coalition, which will be providing protection.

The deal was reached after three days of marathon talks between NATO's 26 ambassadors and de Hoop Scheffer, who wanted an agreement this week.

It means a planned exploratory mission to Iraq will go ahead in August, an official said.

NATO ambassadors reconvened Friday after consulting capitals on the last outstanding issues.

Paris, which abandoned its objections to a NATO presence inside Iraq, rejected the idea of placing the mission under the operational command of U.S. Gen. George Casey, the senior U.S. officer in Iraq.

Washington argues the idea is the best way to protect the mission and ensure its effectiveness.

The U.S. proposal had the backing of a majority of the 26 NATO nations, but unanimity was needed for a decision.

Paris had suggested postponing a decision on command until September to let the first phase of the mission begin Aug. 6.

NATO leaders agreed to the missions at their summit a month ago but left details vague.

Another outstanding issue had to do with whether the mission should be commonly funded by all allies, like the NATO peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan, or only by those sending troops.

The command issue is especially sensitive for Paris and a handful of other countries that opposed the U.S.-led war and have refused to send troops to help with the aftermath.

The initial mission NATO intends to send Aug. 6 would comprise only 30 or so people and report back to NATO headquarters Sept. 15. It will be followed by a larger mission.

So far NATO's role in Iraq has been limited to providing logistical backup to a Polish-led division working with the American troops. Although 16 NATO members already have some troops there, they are not under the NATO flag.

This can take a while  

[bn880 5]

30 NATO analysts go in, how many come out? Let the betting begin.

[maddogx 13]

Probably a round number...

[bn880 5]

So what are you saying, 50?

Sorry I am just trying to make things a little less gloomy here. I wonder if Denoir can make a neural net, which when trained on current Iraq casualty rates will predict the number so that he can win the bet.

(not a bad idea eh Denoir)

[Chill 0]

Seeing that Saddams captured and the USA has killed all the terrorist in Afganistan we all can walk in the streets with out fear. The war of terror is over. So why do the USA still kill inocent people in Iraq?

[Placebo 29]

Post and discuss sources, do not flamebait like that Chill.

[kerosene 0]

I wonder if anyone i'll take up the saudi offer? mabye Kazakstan - the guy who runs the country caouldnt care less about his own poeple and he does like money, plus its a military dictatorship already clamping down on anyone whos pro-democracy or too muslim, so the terrorist threat to coutrys taking the saudi money might not bother him to much.

Once you rule out turkey and pakistan and Iraqs neighbours which muslim states could really deploy an effective force anyway? Only country I could think of is Indonesia and their tied up oppressing their own population anyway. I dont really think any muslim african states would go for it either - sudans out, algeria has plenty of problems of its own.

I'd give these saudi paid troops about a week before they started selling wapons and defecting to the insurgents - but mabye im just cynical. Since they'll be approaching governments rather than hiring soldiers privatly most of them probably wouldnt be overjoyed about getting sent to Iraq anyway.

Funny that Vietnam thing got brought up, I was only thinking a few days ago that it seems to be going that way, when people said it early on I thought it was crap, but i cant see the Americans being able to get out of iraq for at least another presidency, unless they just cut and run which would look really bad. And if it drags on for four to eight years then its just going to get a lot more bitter and iraqi civilians will be the ones who wind up paying for it.

[turms 0]

Seeing that Saddams captured and the USA has killed all the terrorist in Afganistan we all can walk in the streets with out fear. The war of terror is over. So why do the USA still kill inocent people in Iraq?

"War on terror" has created more terrorists than what it has destroyed. Isnt that kind of a "success" a lost war then? More you kill local people, more terrorists will show up.

[bn880 5]

Yeah Chill was just being sarcastic, and I can understand his frustration, but let us not start fist fighting here over it, we know what's happening in that regard, nobody is going to change facts.

[Chill 0]

Yeah Chill was just being sarcastic, and I can understand his frustration, but let us not start fist fighting here over it, we know what's happening in that regard, nobody is going to change facts.  

I know I was sarcastic and really hope you americans can amend the situation in November for World Peace.

[Balschoiw 0]

Turkey, Iran to fight Kurd rebels

As the Coaltion under US lead fails to have an opinion or clear line on the Kurd´s issue two neighbours join their arms to slice the cake:

Quote[/b] ]TEHRAN, July 30: Turkey and Iran signed a security agreement here on Thursday pledging to jointly combat Turkish Kurd rebels and anti- Iranian fighters, but failed to resolve a series of bitter trade disputes.

After a scheduled signing ceremony covering several business deals was cancelled, officials from both sides put a brave face on what was evidently a disappointing conclusion to a landmark two-day visit by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

"I think the security cooperation between the two countries is bearing fruit," Mr Erdogan told reporters, who had been pressing for Iran to put rebels from the former Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), now known as Kongra-Gel, on its list of terror groups.

Iran's deputy interior minister for security affairs, Ali Asghar Ahmadi, told AFP that Iran had agreed to do so, with Turkey in return doing the same for the Iraq-based People's Mujahedeen (MKO) - Iran's main armed opposition group.

Iran also has a Kurdish minority and shares Turkey's concerns over any moves toward greater autonomy by the Kurds in northern Iraq, but in recent years ties have been marred by mutual accusations that each side was sheltering each others' opposition.

"Both Iran and Turkey have decided to brand the PKK and MKO as terrorist groups, and what was signed today stated that even if they continue to operate under different names, they will continue to be dealt with as terrorist groups," he said.

"We both agreed to follow up other security issues," he added, but gave no further details.

Turkey and Iran have recently boosted cooperation on security matters, including against the ex-PKK, with Iranian security forces earlier this month launching a major crackdown on their militants hiding in Iranian territory along the border with Turkey.

But the mood was nevertheless gloomy on trade, with no immediate solution reached to a bitter dispute concerning a natural gas supply deal signed in 1996.

Turkey has halted imports, complaining of poor quality and asking Iran to reduce the price. "The matter of gas has been dealt with," Mr Erdogan said - but added Turkey and Iran's main gas companies still needed further discussions. -AFP

Be aware. This is the first step into a direction that could be causing some major trouble. As I said already multiple times. An independant kurdish snclave in northern Iraq qill not be accepted. By none of the neighbours.

I´m curious what the results of all this will be.

And Powell plays Santa Claus...again.

Powell Promises Iraq Billions in Aid

Quote[/b] ]US secretary of state Colin Powell said the United States would speed delivery to Iraq of billions of dollars in reconstruction aid, as Nato countries agreed to send a 40-member team as soon as possible to begin training Iraqi security forces.

During his brief, unannounced trip to Iraq yesterday, Powell said the United States would step up the slow pace of reconstruction funds to rebuild the infrastructure and create jobs, which would reduce support for the uprising.

“We want to show the Iraqi people that this money is being used for their benefit and do it as quickly as we can,†Powell said.

Powell was unable to announce specific figures, but Iraq’s deputy prime minister, Barham Saleh, who joined Powell at a news conference, said Å6 billion in US reconstruction money would be disbursed by December

US reconstruction money doesn´t do much these days, does it ?

It´s not the money coming from the Iraqi oil fund but the initiative of US troops to rebuild the country that is lacking. How cute , he sends money that belongs to the Iraqis anyway

Sorry, but can we skip the election s**** and return to reality pleeeasssee Maybe Powell wouldn´t have to sneak into Iraq through the backdoor then

[Uncle_Sam 0]

I found a site with some impressive pictures of US and UK soldiers link removed

The pictures are emotional, shocking and impressive

I think a must see

[red oct 2]

posting a site that has graphic images or any images involving dead bodies will get you banned. you better remove quickly it before Placebo or Hellfish see it.

[Placebo 29]

Too late.

Quote[/b] ]§5)No posting of explicit images

No posting of pictures containing porn, real killing, mutilations, wounds, carnage, and other disgusting/explicit images. This also includes links to pages that contain such images. There have been a number of incidents where people have linked to news sites which unbeknownst to them contains obscene images a few mouse clicks away, while we can't expect people to check every link on a site it is strongly suggested that whenever making a post about a news item the post is structured in a way that provides the information without risk of breaching the rules. A good example of how to do this can be seen below. If you're ever unsure as to whether or not a link should be posted on the forum feel free to PM a moderator for guidance.

You call them impressive, I call them perm ban.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I know I was sarcastic and really hope you americans can amend the situation in November for World Peace.

I know what you mean...all the terrorists around the world (including Iraq) will put down their arms and sing, "we are the world", when JFK-wannabe becomes president..

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]I know what you mean...all the terrorists around the world (including Iraq) will put down their arms and sing, "we are the world", when JFK-wannabe becomes president..

No, but who knows. You might actually get the support and sympathy of the rest of the world. Like you had in Afghanistan, but didnt in Iraq...

[Pathy 0]

The sympathy and support got blown away along time ago....

[ralphwiggum 6]

.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/08/01/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraqi insurgents targeted Christian worshippers attending Sunday evening services, setting off explosions near four churches in Baghdad and another in the northern city of Mosul.

Ten people were killed and more than 40 wounded in the attacks in Baghdad, according to the U.S. military. Iraqi police put the number of wounded at 46.

In Mosul, Iraqi Police Gen. Mohammad Kairi Barhawi said one person was killed and 11 wounded when a car bomb exploded outside a church as worshippers were leaving about 7 p.m. (11 a.m. ET).

Barhawi called the perpetrators "criminals and terrorists," and said Iraqis would remain unified against them.

Lt. Col. James Hutton, a spokesman for the U.S. Army's 1st Cavalry Division, said four explosions occurred Sunday evening in Baghdad -- two in the Karada district, east of the fortified Green Zone, and two in the southern neighborhoods of New Baghdad and Dura.

The largest was in Karada, in central Baghdad, where a car bomb exploded outside a church, leaving a crater more than 5 feet wide.

Karada has several churches for Iraq's Christian minority, which makes up about 3 percent of the country's population.

Police and emergency workers responding to the first blast, which occurred about 6 p.m. (10 a.m. ET), discovered a second car they suspected had been rigged as a bomb. The explosives in that vehicle detonated before it could be disarmed, they said.

Earlier bomb blasts Sunday killed four more people in Mosul and two in Baghdad, Iraqi police said.

Another car bomb in Mosul wounded 32 others when it exploded outside the Sumer police station in a Palestinian neighborhood, U.S. and Iraqi officials said.

I wonder if those who are outraged at US airstrikes are also outraged at this incident.

from same article.

Quote[/b] ]Also Sunday, a roadside bomb killed a U.S. soldier in northern Iraq and wounded two others, the U.S. military announced. The death in the city of Samarra brings the number U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war to 914, with 678 from hostile action and 235 from nonhostile activity, according to the U.S. military.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Any time a bunch of religious fuckwits want to kill each other, I'm a happy guy. Not good that (relative) innocents got in the way though.

Would someone explain to me how this is so specially different from the bombings of other businesses, though?

[quicksand 0]

37,000 Iraqi civillians killed in Iraq War

Quote[/b] ]

An Iraqi political group says more than 37,000 Iraqi civilians were killed between the start of the US-led invasion in March 2003 and October 2003.

The People's Kifah, or Struggle Against Hegemony, movement said in a statement that it carried out a detailed survey of Iraqi civilian fatalities during September and October 2003.

Its calculation was based on deaths among the Iraqi civilian population only, and did not count losses sustained by the Iraqi military and paramilitary forces.

The deputy general secretary and spokesperson of the movement told Aljazeera.net he could vouch for the accuracy of the figure.

"We are 100% sure that 37,000 civilian deaths is a correct estimate. Our study is the result of two months of hard work which involved hundreds of Iraqi activists and academics. Of course there may be deaths that were not reported to us, but the toll in any case could not be lower than our finding," said Muhammad al-Ubaidi.

"For the collation of our statistics we visited the most remote villages, spoke and coordinated with grave-diggers across Iraq, obtained information from hospitals, and spoke to thousands of witnesses who saw incidents in which Iraqi civilians were killed by US fire," he said.

Detailed figures

Al-Ubaidi, a UK-based physiology professor, provided a detailed breakdown of the 37,000 civilian deaths for each governorate (excluding the Kurdish areas) relating to the period between March and October 2003:

Baghdad: 6103

Mosul: 2009

Basra: 6734

Nasiriya: 3581

Diwania: 1567

Wasit: 2494

Babil: 3552

Karbala and Najaf: 2263

Muthana: 659

Misan: 2741

Anbar: 2172

Kirkuk: 861

Salah al-Din: 1797.

The People's Kifah said the process of data gathering stopped after one of the group's workers was arrested by Kurdish militias and handed over to US forces in October 2003. The fate of the worker remains unclear.

Missing worker

"I am taking this opportunity of talking to Aljazeera.net to request that the US occupation authorities reveal the whereabouts of the worker, who was arrested and then went missing. We are afraid he is being tortured the way Abu Ghraib prisoners were tortured," al-Ubaidi said.

"His name is Ramzi Musa Ahmad. He is a 32-year-old Iraqi engineer who was on his way to the Iraqi Kurdish governorate al-Sulaimania last October to fax me the information to Britain, because telephone services had not been restored in Baghdad."

According to al-Ubaidi: "The minibus in which Ahmad was travelling was stopped at a Kurdish checkpoint. He was arrested and handed over to US army."

Banned statement

As of now, there are no reliable estimates of total Iraqi civilian fatalities. The interim Iraqi government has not made available any statistics, while US occupation authorities in Iraq reportedly issued orders to the forensic medicine department not to talk to the media about the number of bodies it receives.

Liqa Makki, a political analyst, said it is widely known in Baghdad that Iraqi officials are prohibited from releasing any information about body count.

"The director of forensic medicine department said publicly some months ago that his department was receiving 70 bodies a day. But he was reprimanded and a statement was published in the Iraqi press prohibiting the announcement of any kind of body count," Makki said.

The only serious independent attempt to collate war statistics is the Iraq Body Count Project, which involves both US and British academics. The project's website currently places Iraq's civilian toll at between 11,000 and 13,000.

The website has been criticised in some quarters for its tardiness in updating its figures. But Iraq Body Count Project says it is not a news portal and puts accuracy ahead of speed.

According to the Arab and western media, between 15,000 and 20,000 Iraqi civilians have perished since the launch of the invasion.

But some cast doubt on the figures, saying the number of Iraqi civilians who have died at the hands of the US army may never be known.

Census due

Iraq's interim government is preparing the first post-Saddam census in Iraq. It hopes that an accurate census will unearth long-buried facts about Iraq's wars.

The Planning Ministry issued instructions to Iraqis not to leave their homes on 12 October when 150,000 workers will be engaged in conducting the census.

The interim government says the census will be the last step before the general election scheduled for January 2005.

According to the last official census - conducted in 1997 - Iraq had a population of 24 million.

Tens of thousands of Iraqi civillians died as a result of the US invasion.

Tens of thousands of Iraqi civillians died as a result of the US invasion.

[theavonlady 2]

37,000 Iraqi civillians killed in Iraq War

Yes, assuming you believe an unknown group called The People's Kifah, and the dissemination of their claims through Aljazeera.

Maybe they're close and maybe they've got an agenda to intentionally mislead us. The reports coming in through various other sources up until a short while ago all had numbers between 3500 and 4000.

[walker 0]

Hi Avon

The collecting of data by the US admin

Because the TBA Govenor General Paul Bremmer censored the info from Iraqi hospitals and Morgues we have never been able to get the figures up to now.

Conservative data put the death toll among civilians at not less than 10,000.

Most respectable media sources put the figures for dead as a result of G.W. II. and the occupation in the tens of thousands. The 37,000 figure at first glance looks high like the figure that we would expect for Civilian, Millitary and insugent dead.

However the professor involved has given a breakdown of his figures it would not be outside the bounds of possibility to examine the figures in detail to confirm or deny them.

Even coalition figures for enemy killed put the figures well in excess the figures you have given.

The fact that in one night half of two armoured regiments were wiped out in G.W. II. would be in excess of your figure.

The most verifialble figures to come out until this report by Professor Al-Ubaidi who is based in the UK, are considered to be these Min 11336 Max 13305 Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq. Sourcehttp://www.iraqbodycount.net/ Those are the only figures that are double checked. But as they say on their site they are a conservative figure. So the 37,000 figure is not denied by them.

As of June 2003 the Guardian reported

Quote[/b] ]At least 5,000 civilians may have been killed during the invasion of Iraq, an independent research group has claimed. As more evidence is collated, it says, the figure could reach 10,000.

Iraq Body Count (IBC), a volunteer group of British and US academics and researchers, compiled statistics on civilian casualties from media reports and estimated that between 5,000 and 7,000 civilians died in the conflict.

Its latest report compares those figures with 14 other counts, most of them taken in Iraq, which, it says, bear out its findings.

Researchers from several groups have visited hospitals and mortuaries in Iraq and interviewed relatives of the dead; some are conducting surveys in the main cities.

Three completed studies suggest that between 1,700 and 2,356 civilians died in the battle for Baghdad alone.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,976392,00.html

For the 37,000 figure to be ruled out a proper academic counter study is required

Clearly what is needed is a proper acounting of those dead. civilian and soldiers. The fact that the people who are doing that accounting are arrested is clearly indicative that someone has something to hide.

I have seen no official debunking of the figures of 37,000 where the method of aquiring the data is questioned. So clearly the figures of 37,000 civilian dead must untill then stand.

Kind Regards Walker

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]The reports coming in through various other sources up until a short while ago all had numbers between 3500 and 4000.

AvonLady let`s stop kidding ourselves.

Quote[/b] ]'Iraq's daily death toll much higher than reported'

AFP, Baghdad

No one knows how many Iraqi civilians die every day in the attacks and military errors, which have scarred the country since the US-led invasion last year. Rough tolls have been compiled, but experts say the real figure is likely much higher.

"The only way to establish the full extent of casualties is an official commission on civilian deaths, with a clear, published method of working and external verification of the work by an appropriate body independent of the United States or Britain," said John Slobodan, one of the founders of the website www.iraqbodycount.net.

Based on international press reports, Iraqbodycount regularly updates its figures for the number of civilians killed since the war started on March 19, 2003.

Its death toll as of Sunday was between 11,164 and 13,118 people.

The fundamental instability of the country is one of the main reason why it is almost impossible to record every violent death.

Figures produced by the US-led military forces and the Iraqi authorities rarely match up and are often imprecise.

Last Tuesday, an Iraqi motorist, due to be married in two days, was shot dead by US troops as he overtook a military convoy on his way to the hotel where his wedding was to take place, police and relatives said.

His death was well documented by the many journalists who happened to be staying at the hotel, but what about the minor unrest that happens elsewhere?

"There are families who will bury directly their own dead, especially in hot weather," said Slobodan, adding: "Who will know about that?"

A university professor from Keele in Britain, Slobodan has studied the impact on civilians of Nato's military campaign in the former Yugoslavia and said that badly mangled bodies are rarely taken to hospitals and are therefore not included in hospital death tolls.

In Iraq, "from April 2003 to April 2004 there's no official figure" of the number of people who have died, he said.

But the ministry of health started to collect casualty data from hospitals across Iraq since April.

"We do have information on them (the civilians killed)," Health Minister Alaadin Alwan told AFP.

According to these statistics, some 400 Iraqis were killed and 1,600 injured in the escalating violence during June alone, in the build-up to the handover of power by the US-led coalition to an interim Iraqi government.

But independent experts argue that even these official numbers are too low.

"There is such a chaotic situation in the hospitals that you can never be sure," said Raed Jarrar, who heads the Campaign for Innocent Victims of Conflict in Iraq.

"For example during the clashes in Nassiriyah and Najaf some people were taken to small hospitals which do not document the deaths," he said.

"Neither the Iraqi government nor the American forces are interested in getting the exact figures. It's politically against their interests."

Based in the United States, his non-governmental organisation had begun a door-to-door investigation to count the number of civilians killed in Iraq but stopped in the hope that the task could be resumed on a larger scale.

Iraqbodycout.net has 11,300 well documented Iraqi civillian deathstallied from the world wide media which doesn`t come nearly close of the actual death toll for obvious reasons.

Have it your way, discredit an organisation of Iraqi profesors that took the risk to actually travell through the entire country and collect such data.I also would have been most grateful for a US government official death toll but sadly they don`t do body counts-civillian atleast.