The Iraq thread 3

[walker 0]

denoir, do you have any infomation on when they say they actually hired Civilian Interrorgators, i doubt i could look in the yellow pages under I for them, what companies specialise in interroragation that are in the public sector like Blackwater.

Hi MLF

You asked the question I answered.

Kind Regards Walker

[walker 0]

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Calling it a "high priority," President Bush on Wednesday asked Congress for an additional $25 billion to cover military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

CNN

     

Look, spend $25 billion here and $25 billion there and soon it will amount to real money!  

Anyway, glad it's not my money. I wonder how far the deficit can be pushed until they'll have to tax the hell out of everything that moves for 20 years.  

Hi Denoir

I think I saw somwere that The War in Iraq has added about $150 billion to the US defecit. This makes it up to about $175 billion this year alone. The US will be commited there for at least another year possibly four according to some sources. So you can probably add another $100 billion for next yeat too if things quieten down. If they dont then it is another $175 billion next year.

The White House tried to put off any additional hike for after the election but they have run out of money to pay contractors for soldiers food etc.

Kind Regards Walker

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Calling it a "high priority," President Bush on Wednesday asked Congress for an additional $25 billion to cover military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

CNN

     

Expected and necessary. I'm glad he didn't delay the decision for political reasons, at least.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]So, if Rumsfeld knew about the report, why did he not tell Bush? It would be very strange if he had told Bush. The president must have deniability. He does not touch such matters.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/05/iraq.abuse.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]

Source: Bush unhappy with defense chief

Bush 'not satisfied' with how he learned of prison abuse

Wednesday, May 5, 2004 Posted: 9:32 PM EDT (0132 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush told Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld on Wednesday that he was "not satisfied" at the way he received information about charges that Iraqi prisoners had been abused by U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison, a senior administration official told CNN.

Quote[/b] ]

Bush also voiced concern that he was not kept up to speed on important information about the scope of the problem -- and how the Pentagon was handling it, the official said.

Quote[/b] ]

Rumsfeld also made clear that he, too, felt "he didn't know some things he should have," according to the senior official, along with another official.

Quote[/b] ]

Rumsfeld will testify Friday morning about the abuse reports in a two-hour open hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said the panel's chairman, Republican Sen. John Warner of Virginia.

The open hearing will be followed by a closed hearing before the full Senate, Warner said Wednesday on the Senate floor.

Lets wait and see what Rumsfeld says.

[Akira 0]

Also as interesting, as reported by CBS Nightly News, is the visit to said prison by Rumsfield late last year. Also it was shown that Gen. Sanchez, commander of the occupational forces, visited the prison, and in a memo, stated that all means necessary should be used to make the detainees "exploitable."

You can see the video at the CBS News site, under videos, and "Military Apologies".

CBS News

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Also as interesting, as reported by CBS Nightly News, is the visit to said prison by Rumsfield late last year. Also it was shown that Gen. Sanchez, commander of the occupational forces, visited the prison, and in a memo, stated that all means necessary should be used to make the detainees "exploitable."

You can see the video at the CBS News site, under videos, and "Military Apologies

Wrong clip.

Edit: The clip is called Congress Probes Abuse

Lt. Gen. Sanchez did not issue that memo but Maj. General Miller did. Futhermore, the memo stated "...the Military Police should be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of interness" not "that all means necessary should be used to make the detainees "exploitable." The 800th MP Brigade was not trained to do this (including being prison guards) and the Army has this in their report. Also, they had bad leadership.

Quote[/b] ]

(U) I find that the 800th MP Brigade was not adequately trained for a mission that included operating a prison or penal institution at Abu Ghraib Prison Complex. As the Ryder Assessment found, I also concur that units of the 800th MP Brigade did not receive corrections-specific training during their mobilization period.  MP units did not receive pinpoint assignments prior to mobilization and during the post mobilization training, and thus could not train for specific missions.  The training that was accomplished at the mobilization sites were developed and implemented at the company level with little or no direction or supervision at the Battalion and Brigade levels, and consisted primarily of common tasks and law enforcement training.  However, I found no evidence that the Command, although aware of this deficiency, ever requested specific corrections training from the Commandant of the Military Police School, the US Army Confinement Facility at Mannheim, Germany, the Provost Marshal General of the Army, or the US Army Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.  (ANNEXES 19 and 76)

Quote[/b] ]

3.  (U) There is abundant evidence in the statements of numerous witnesses that soldiers throughout the 800th MP Brigade were not proficient in their basic MOS skills, particularly regarding internment/resettlement operations.  Moreover, there is no evidence that the command, although aware of these deficiencies, attempted to correct them in any systemic manner other than ad hoc training by individuals with civilian corrections experience.  (Multiple Witness Statements and the Personal Observations of the Investigation Team)

Quote[/b] ]

Although not supported by BG Karpinski, FRAGO 1108 made all of the MP units at Abu Ghraib TACON to the Commander, 205th MI Brigade.  This effectively made an MI Officer, rather than an MP Officer, responsible for the MP units conducting detainee operations at that facility.   This is not doctrinally sound due to the different missions and agendas assigned to each of these respective specialties.   (ANNEX 31)

Quote[/b] ]

17.  (U) Numerous witnesses stated that the 800th MP Brigade S-1, MAJ Hinzman and S-4, MAJ Green, were essentially dysfunctional, but that despite numerous complaints, these officers were not replaced.  This had a detrimental effect on the Brigade Staff’s effectiveness and morale.  Moreover, the Brigade Command Judge Advocate, LTC James O’Hare, appears to lack initiative and was unwilling to accept responsibility for any of his actions.   LTC Gary Maddocks, the Brigade XO did not properly supervise the Brigade staff by failing to lay out staff priorities, take overt corrective action when needed, and supervise their daily functions.

Quote[/b] ]

19. (U) I find that individual Soldiers within the 800th MP Brigade and the 320th Battalion stationed throughout Iraq had very little contact during their tour of duty with either LTC (P) Phillabaum or BG Karpinski.

Quote[/b] ]

21. As I have documented in other parts of this investigation, I find that there was no clear emphasis by BG Karpinski to ensure that the 800th MP Brigade Staff, Commanders, and Soldiers were trained to standard in detainee operations and proficiency or that serious accountability lapses that occurred over a significant period of time, particularly at Abu Ghraib (BCCF), were corrected.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]and where did you get this source from?

mirror news website itself.

they got a lot to loose if this is false report, so they will start defending their report.

I am getting used to this kind of answers from you.

Great answer Ralph,to bad you never thought of it the other way around.So ask yourself WHO has alot to loose if this indeed true?Who`s image is going to get another slap on the face and even more questions will arise from the public as to the legitimacy of this war?Hmm...

I was just showing the other side of the story.Or from your point of view they should be immidiatly ignored and not given the chance to reply because "British millitary says the pictures are fake"

those who have breaking news implictly has assumed the risk of doing so. if it is a big news, it will provide Mirror with readership, and if not, a big public relations fiasco. so Mirror brought it up, and they have more to lose.

Quote[/b] ]We are talking about THIS war.Comparing Iraqi soldiers actions from GW 1 to GW2 is as stupid as comparing US soldiers from this war to those in Vietnam

choosing the war that you are interested in and not telling the whole idea is not good. for example, British defeated Washington most of the times, but ultimately they left(must be bad pizza service ), and US is now no longer a part of British empire. by looking at one of those many battles that British won, are we going to say Brits won? not really.

Quote[/b] ]Using maybe in your sentences is not at all healthy in a debate.

"Maybe the Iraqis soldiers were acting on Saddam`s direct order to not harm the POWs.

their was an article from NPR several pages back(about 70 or so) interviewing one of former Iraq's generals. by his own words, only 15% or so of his troops actually fought back. what do you think that means?

Quote[/b] ]White horses Ralph,white horses.You always go for them when you lack the abillity of providing any proof.

sorry, but it was you who went for the whitehorse first.

Quote[/b] ]Hogwash!Ralph are you part of US millitary?Do you know what their concerns are?From your post in seems you ado.Who made you spokesman of US millitary to claim they "are busy doing other things".

Forgive my for not trusting your words but I actually belive they will do anything possible to end the shame of having a POW one year after "The mission was accomplished".

they are busy bunkering in, for one thing if iwere to join US military......the history would record it as fall of US military

Quote[/b] ]BTW you claimed I said it is ok to mistreat POWs.Please point out where I said that.

from extension of your logic. your logic was that IRC cannot visit insurgents since 'situation is not adequate'

so, if 'situation is not adequate' anyone can deny access to IRC? i'm showing that your idea is not a good one by showing that it is exactly what you are against(not enough oversight of US detainees)

Quote[/b] ]Your right,so what if they mutillate,torture,humilliate,force them to comit homosexual acts,bah who cares.They are not human beings,are they?Intresting that no one elses seems to agree with you.(I am refering to US millitary,TBA etc)

this was from extension of your idea.

Quote[/b] ]In my country we call this toilet paper words.I`ve asked you how does criticizing the CIA agents and soldiers who tortured Iraqis,TBA lies and maniplation means for starting an illegal war,the US soldiers shooting civillians and destroying taxis equal hating a population of 275 million citizens.

And you give me this answer,low Ralph,low..

"did i hear the EU nations trying to get together?"

the above statement is true that EU is growing, but contains negative sarcastic tone. nothing so much different from posts here.

Quote[/b] ]Oh boy..CPJ is an organisation that protects current journalists not the ones who reported in the Vietnam War, Falkalnds,Mogadishu,Gulf War1.So put this togehter with

here's a news for you. current journalists are going ot be non-current journalists soon. so would that means in future, the journalists we know, and their hardships are to be forgotten? just because Celine Dion is currently a singer doesn't mean that she was not a singer in the past.

Quote[/b] ]The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) has said "Iraq is the most dangerous place in the world to work as a journalist."

READ THE STATEMENT... where do you find 'current' on there? furthermore, that statement is from AJ, not form CPJ.

Quote[/b] ]You mean the next time Syrians pass a U.S checkpoint, pretend they are Iraqis and their passaports are found prooving otherwise.Hmm,I am sure they will be let to go along their buisness

so who has legal authority right now to conduct the search? that's my question to you.

Quote[/b] ]So,you think when the kidnappers will be seen by US soldiers they won`t be shot on sight?Do you think they don`t want to find them?

i don't know why you are saying this when the comment i made was refering to how prisoners were harshly dealt from both sides.

Quote[/b] ]Get real!So,if what you say its true why did it happen in the case of the NFL footbal player?He got intensive media atenttion for doing alot less then the Marine who jumped on a grenade to save his collegues.

first get real. 3.2 mil contract vs. significantly lower paying job, with more risk. not an easy choice to make, and is noble.

when this news came, there were plenty of people hissing that this story was to evoke 'patriotic emotions'.

[Pathy 0]

Yes i wouldnt say giving up wealth and fame to fight for your country, refusing all interviews on the matter, is something easy to do. Its a pity like so many others he was dragged into a "war on terror" which has turned into nothing more than Bush' personal crusade to do.....what exactly? Tackle all the old enemies of the USA using the 9/11 attacks as an excuse? "liberate" oil?

[theavonlady 2]

Yes i wouldnt say giving up wealth and fame to fight for your country, refusing all interviews on the matter, is something easy to do. Its a pity like so many others he was dragged into a "war on terror" which has turned into nothing more than Bush' personal crusade to do.....what exactly? Tackle all the old enemies of the USA using the 9/11 attacks as an excuse? "liberate" oil?

So are you siding with those that say that the US invasion of Afghanistan is no different and no more justified than its invasion of Iraq?

[MLF 0]

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Calling it a "high priority," President Bush on Wednesday asked Congress for an additional $25 billion to cover military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

CNN

     

Look, spend $25 billion here and $25 billion there and soon it will amount to real money!  

Anyway, glad it's not my money. I wonder how far the deficit can be pushed until they'll have to tax the hell out of everything that moves for 20 years.  

im pretty sure they loweder there deficit by 100 billion, just a sec ill try and dig out the article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2....printer

Quote[/b] ]Smaller-than-expected tax refunds and rising individual tax receipts will pare back federal borrowing significantly for the first half of this year and could reduce the $521 billion deficit projected for the fiscal year by as much as $100 billion, Treasury and congressional budget officials said yesterday.

The Treasury Department's borrowing estimates may prove to be more good news for President Bush on the economic front, as opponents attempt to make his fiscal stewardship a campaign issue. The $184 billion the government is now expected to borrow through June is a 27 percent improvement from Treasury's February projection of $252 billion, the department said.

G. William Hoagland, a senior economic aide to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), said he dashed off a memo to GOP leadership predicting the 2004 deficit could be trimmed to $420 billion, a record in dollar terms but considerably lower than the White House's $521 billion projection.

"This is better than what everybody expected," Hoagland said.

Democratic and Republican budget aides in the House warned yesterday that it was too early to reach conclusions. Spending could still take an unexpected jump because of surging hostilities in Iraq. The improving federal borrowing picture, they said, may just be bringing the administration's $521 billion deficit forecast more into line with the $477 billion deficit predicted by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, Capitol Hill's official budget scorekeeper.

Individual disappointments last month could prove to be to the government's fiscal advantage. Earlier this year, Bush had boasted that this year's average income tax refund would be $300 larger than it would have been without last year's tax cut. But refunds have fallen well short of that mark. Treasury officials also cited lower-than-expected government spending and higher payroll and individual income taxes as reasons that less borrowing may be needed.

All of this indicates that the improving economy is beginning to slow a three-year slide in overall tax receipts.

"The 5.5 percent average [economic growth] pace in the latest three quarters was the largest since 1984," said Mark J. Warshawsky, assistant Treasury secretary for economic policy, in a statement to the department's borrowing advisory committee. "With the assistance of tax cuts, growth has become self-sustaining."

An improving picture could strengthen the political hands of the president and House Republican leaders as they wrangle with the Senate over more tax cuts and a budget blueprint for the fiscal year that begins Oct. 1. For weeks, the negotiations have been stalled, with a majority of the Senate demanding new procedural hurdles for further tax cutting and the House and White House steadfastly refusing.

The latest compromise would mandate that tax cuts over the next three years be offset by equal tax increases or spending cuts, unless 60 Senate votes could be mustered to set the restriction aside. However, under the compromise being floated, some tax cuts -- $92 billion worth in 2005 -- would be exempted from that restriction under Congress's annual budget resolution.

So far, House tax cutters have been undaunted by federal red ink. Last week, lawmakers in both parties voted overwhelmingly to make permanent Bush's tax cuts for married couples, a bill that would cost the Treasury $105 billion over 10 years. For the next three weeks, the House has scheduled successive votes on more tax cuts totaling hundreds of billions of dollars.

[MLF 0]

denoir, do you have any infomation on when they say they actually hired Civilian Interrorgators, i doubt i could look in the yellow pages under I for them, what companies specialise in interroragation that are in the public sector like Blackwater.

Hi MLF

You asked the question I answered.

Kind Regards Walker

sorry, ive been a bit curfuddled lately i have glandular fever for the last few days and im still suffering.

[walker 0]

Hi MLF

Err no I could not see any mention of a reduction in the defecit there.

I see lots of talk about what 'should' lead to a reduction which I clasify as tooth fairy economics and stuff about reducing the defecit by $100 billion in 10 years maybe if the tooth fairy is nice and if they can get a fantasy budget passed (the one where Veterans benefits get cut and half the country has its roads not repaired for 20 years)

Overall it uses lots of weasel words and phrases like 'could reduce' and the famous one 'by as much as' there is an 'expected to borrow' there is talk of things being 'better than what everybody expected'

I think there is lots of chat in the article but zero substance.

Kind Regards walker

[MLF 0]

Anyway you put it there deficit will be around 100 billion lower than they predicted.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Anyway to get this back on the subject.

What is being done to protect the child who it is aleged was raped by a CACI International employee?

Since the child is in US millitary custody what department of Child Services is protecting and looking out for this and any other child in US millitary custody.

Who is officialy charged with ensuring their human rights while in Millitary custody?

Where is the aledged pedophile from the contractor CACI International to be tried in the US or in Iraq?

If he has returned to the US is he on the Sex offenders register?

What is being done to protect children at schools and the neighbourhood where he lives.

Is he is to be returned to Iraq to face justice?

Which prison in the US is he held in?

Perhaps some in the US can find out you have Megan's Law.

I presume the talk about George Bush Jnr. giving all contractors a written no prosecution clause is complete clap trap.

Lets get this guy tried pronto.

Kind Regards Walker

[miles teg 1]

The Red Cross seems to validate those photos as well:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....cid=716

Before anyone calls the International Red Cross liars because they didn't publicize these abuses in the US controlled prisons in Iraq, keep in mind that they dont publicize such things because they know then that they will not be trusted by the country's controlling the prisons and not be allowed inside.

They generally prefer to work quietly behind the scenes and have historically been very well respected aside from the occasional intelligence person who tries to pose as a red cross employee/volunteer.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Akira 0]

Wrong clip.

Edit: The clip is called Congress Probes Abuse

Lt. Gen. Sanchez did not issue that memo but Maj. General Miller did. Futhermore, the memo stated "...the Military Police should be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of interness" not "that all means necessary should be used to make the detainees "exploitable." The 800th MP Brigade was not trained to do this (including being prison guards) and the Army has this in their report. Also, they had bad leadership.

My bad. Saw it on the TV and went looking for it on their website. Had my wife's Mac so none of the video was working, so took a guess.

Anyhow, I think it was Sanchez that stated that the MPs should take their orders from the Intelliegence Officers.

Quote[/b] ]"...the Military Police should be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of interness"

And you don't think that that would lead to "all means necessary"? That it is easily readable that that gives a blanket order basically to do whatever they want?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]And you don't think that that would lead to "all means necessary"? That it is easily readable that that gives a blanket order basically to do whatever they want?

I see the order vague.

Quote[/b] ]Anyhow, I think it was Sanchez that stated that the MPs should take their orders from the Intelliegence Officers.

Yeah that was his memo (about the intel. officers).

[billybob2002 0]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119159,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

Ex-Iraq Prison Guards Didn't See Abuse

Thursday, May 06, 2004

PHILADELPHIA  — Some soldiers who have returned home from guarding enemy prisoners in Iraq describe detention camps there as hard, dirty places, plagued by overcrowding and violence, but say the vast majority of U.S. troops treated prisoners humanely.

Quote[/b] ]

"I don't think that has ever happened before, and will ever happen again. I just think it is a bunch of sick soldiers," said Spc. Mark Fogach II, 24, of West Nanticoke, Pa., who was deployed at the Abu Ghraib prison (search) with the 320th Military Police Battalion

Quote[/b] ]

Members of the 320th, an Ashley, Pa.-based Army reserve unit that spent eight months guarding the prison before the end of its deployment in March, said the jail had other problems, though, including supply and manpower shortages and an undercurrent of hostility from inmates intent on defying American rule.

Mortars and rockets exploded on the grounds. Thousands of prisoners and soldiers alike lived in tents that offered limited protection from the weather.

Quote[/b] ]

Juvenile prisoners, he said, were held in the same areas as adults, despite suspicions that they were being physically and sexually abused by other prisoners.

Quote[/b] ]

Mead said "you'd hear the stories" about soldiers or intelligence officers using force or humiliation to control problematic prisoners, but nothing like the type of abuse depicted in the photographs.

Quote[/b] ]

A member of another unit guarding Abu Ghraib said morale was so low among military police that when rumors started circulating about the abuse scandal, "there was nothing anyone could have done to shock us at that point."

Quote[/b] ]

"I don't know what kind of sick thing was going on," said Sgt. Denis Ensminger, 40, of the 870th Military Police Unit (search), based in Pittsburg, Calif.

"Was it some kind of bizarre military intelligence thing to break their will? I think it was a bunch of incredibly bored, stressed-out and probably clinically depressed soldiers just losing it and going off the deep end."

Quote[/b] ]

First Sgt. Daryl Keithley, a Las Vegas police officer stationed at the prison last spring with the 72nd Military Police Company (search), said most of his fellow soldiers saw it as a point of honor that the prisoners be treated well.

Members of his company complained, he said, when they learned that military intelligence officials were banging on cans to wake up detainees.

"We maintained and we kept the standard that we initially set up — no abuse, nothing is going to go on in our prison," Keithley, 43, said.

[walker 0]

Hi all

The important question is which CACI International employee is the one aledged to have raped the boy in Abu Ghraib prison?

Where is the boy, what is being done to protect him and in who's custody is he now.

Where are the two employees of CACI International at the moment?

Aparently CACI International employees cannot be investigated or tried by the millitary according to the leader of the investigation. I find this odd as my understanding of the Laws of War says that is for the occupiers to set up such legal means as are required to pursue criminal acts and maintain law and order. In particular with regard to POWs and detainees pursued as part of the occupation.

Which police force is investigating their aledged criminal acts?

How far has that police force got in investigating the actions of the CACI international employees since February when Donald Rumsfeld and the defence department were informed?

When can we expect their trial?

Kind Regards Walker

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]those who have breaking news implictly has assumed the risk of doing so. if it is a big news, it will provide Mirror with readership, and if not, a big public relations fiasco. so Mirror brought it up, and they have more to lose.

Right,so they don`t have the right to defend themselves and their opinions to be posted?And I don`t agree with you. I think TBA2 has alot more to loose then Mirror moreover when the British population is so critical of their gouverment involvment in Iraq.Mirror just did their job and posted the exclusive news,they couldn`t have independently verify if the pictures are real or fake.

Quote[/b] ]choosing the war that you are interested in and not telling the whole idea is not good. for example, British defeated Washington most of the times, but ultimately they left(must be bad pizza service ), and US is now no longer a part of British empire. by looking at one of those many battles that British won, are we going to say Brits won? not really

What does that have to do with anything?You accused Iraqis of mistreating US soldiers in GW1.What does that have to do with how they were treated in this war?Absolutley nothing. It`s like starting to accuse US millitary for napalming Vietnam villages 40 years ago and being related to GW2  

Quote[/b] ]their was an article from NPR several pages back(about 70 or so) interviewing one of former Iraq's generals. by his own words, only 15% or so of his troops actually fought back. what do you think that means?

Could is possibly mean that the Iraqis who captured the US soldiers were part of the 15% who fought back?

Quote[/b] ]sorry, but it was you who went for the whitehorse first.

Really,where?

Quote[/b] ] for one thing  if iwere to join US military......the history would record it as fall of US military

I have no way of contradicting you on this.I appreciate that you admited that you are in no place to state what US millitary concerns are.

Quote[/b] ]this was from extension of your idea.

Quote[/b] ]so what if US mistreats insurgents then?

Sorry Ralph but I see many contradicting posts..

Quote[/b] ]did i hear the EU nations trying to get together?"

the above statement is true that EU is growing, but contains negative sarcastic tone. nothing so much different from posts here.

More toilet paper words.You haven`t provided me one piece of edvidence to sustain your blunt insult of me being against a population of 750 million citizens.Not once have I criticized America as a whole for the actions US millitary.No mather I shall continue explaining myself even though you give me no reason to do so.

This thread isn`t about NASA breakthroughs,USA providing humanitarian aid to other countries etc.If so I would be the first to congratulate your country.

It`s about the war in Iraq.A dirty,misleading war,in which  tens of thousands of Iraqi civillians lost their lifes and 873 coallition soldiers.How can I have a positive tone on US millitary actions while as I write there is more bloodshed in the country 1 year after the war ended and after numerous promises of security culminating with the capture of Saddam.

Should I look the other way when I read that 2 prisoners were murdered in Abu Gharib and 1,000 more pictures surface of prisoners beign abused,or when I read that hundreads of civillians were killed in the siege of Fallujah for ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING,or maybe when an Iraqi civillian is shot at point blank by a Marine?Sorry my friend but when innocent lifes are lost I tend to be extremly critical of the source of the violence.

Quote[/b] ]READ THE STATEMENT... where do you find 'current' on there? furthermore, that statement is from AJ, not form CPJ.

Wrong it`s AJ quoting CPJ.

OK I agree with your question,but answer me this from what basis did you drow your wrong conclusion(I hope you understood by now) that they are comparing Iraq with Vietnam,GW1,Somalia.

My conclusion is drawn from the fact that CPJ protects CURRENT journalist reporting in the PRESENT not the ones who reported in Vietnam as I`ve explained to you a thousand times.

Quote[/b] ]so who has legal authority right now to conduct the search? that's my question to you.

From what point of view?Because you can bet your money that from the Resistance point of view they have the authority as they are fighting an occupation force and must root out any possible spy or inflitrator.Same thing from the US point of view.

You want to talk about legal authority?Fine,well from this point of view it would be least hazardous to say that Baath is still an authority as they never officially surrendered.

Quote[/b] ]i don't know why you are saying this when the comment i made was refering to how prisoners were harshly dealt from both sides.

You said that they won`t be delt with and I explained to you that if they are found US millitary won`t hesitate to punish them.

Quote[/b] ]first get real. 3.2 mil contract vs. significantly lower paying job, with more risk. not an easy choice to make, and is noble.

when this news came, there were plenty of people hissing that this story was to evoke 'patriotic emotions'.

Ralph,damn it stop contradicting yourself.

You said that the Marine who jumped on the grenade didn`t get any news coverage because people who would have said 'Media is putting these human interest stories instead of crim realities of war.' Then why did Tamil got the coverage and glorification?

Don`t tell me that jumping on a grenade to save your comarades is comparable to giving up 3 million dollars because in the end is not the money that counts,is that thanks to the Marine sacrifice 3 of his collegues will get to see their famillies once again.

[theavonlady 2]

When can we expect their trial?

There's been a delay. PETA is protesting the reintroduction of lions at the Colliseum.

Take then thy bond, take thou thy pound of flesh.

[MLF 0]

Quicksand, the mirro basically said that any story the soldiers told would be worthless without pictures, the clarity of the pictures, discrepencies with the scene in which was taken, the fact that it used B&W film, these al lend to the answer that it was staged either for the money that the mirror undoubtable paid them or to re-create a scene that happened, sounds to me like a bunch of Disgrountaled TA to me being pissed of with being posted abroad.

Also on the note of the NFL player, they covered him joining up because he felt that what he was doing was not worth alot along with his families proud military history he felt he wanted to add his bit into the effort of the war on terrorism, of course if he is then shot in action and killed then of course there gonna cover it because people saw the news of him joining up. not that hes worth any more than the guy who saved his buddies, but they were both doing there job.

[theavonlady 2]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the suicide car bombing in Baghdad earlier today and the coalition taking over of the Governor's Office in Najaf, which lead to heavy losses of Sadr's supporters nearby.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

MLF-

Quote[/b] ]the clarity of the pictures, discrepencies with the scene in which was taken, the fact that it used B&W film, these al lend to the answer that it was staged either for the money that the mirror undoubtable paid them or to re-create a scene that happened

'Lend to the answer' perhaps but not confirm it. Serious questions have been raised including by independant military analysts (some of which working for rival papers of course) but its pretty inclusive so far.

According to the Guardian the experts who have reported to the RMP (Royal military police) have judged it impossible to tell conclusively from the images printed so far whether they are fake or genuine. This seems to confirm my own failed attempts at analysing the differences in the SA80 a1 and a2 and the apparent  irregularities in the truck involved. Theres just not enough detail or clarity in the images to be sure.

But either way i find it quite likely (as some media commentators have suggested) that a similar type of abuse to that depicted  has occured in Iraq, with or without the disgusting urination (though likely on a smaller and less organised scale than the US abuses), and so this may be a reason why the government has not more strenuously denied the veracity of the pictures (contrary to quicKsanDs implication the British government have not actually said the pictures are fake, though nor have they accepted their validity).

[denoir 0]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the suicide car bombing in Baghdad earlier today and the coalition taking over of the Governor's Office in Najaf, which lead to heavy losses of Sadr's supporters nearby.

Sadr's gang seem to be less militarily competent than the resistance fighters that the US went up against in Fallujah.

They do however hold one significant advantage: Najaf being a holy city. US commanders have vowed not to plow through the city and specifically that they would not be attacking any of the many holy shrines in the city.

I think that you can guess how this will be exploited.

Without a mandate to fire back at resistance fighters hiding in shrines and mosques, there can be no victory. On the other hand any destruction (by US troops) of religious buildings could result in a confrontation with the mainstream Shia factions. Given Fallujah and the prisoner abuse, I don't think that the US can afford stepping anybody on the toes.

So I don't know, but the situation seems pretty futile in Najaf.